Ideas about hard cast

[44man]

I have now shot quite a few deer with all of my revolvers using WLN and WFN boolits. I have not used them on any larger game so I don't know if there is a difference.
My 45-70 BFR shoots 317 to 378 gr boolits over 1600 fps to near 1700 fps. Deer appear to react less to a good hit and run farther before I find blood and run farther until they die.
When shot with a .44, .45 or .475, internal damage is greater and I find large amounts of blood right away. I also see the deer fall much sooner with the same hits made with the 45-70. Even a deer shot with my Old Army cap and ball die much quicker.
I am thinking when a certain velocity is reached, some expansion is needed because of the speed a boolit goes through an animal.
Can a bunch of you relate your experiences with this finding?
Is there a limit where too fast is a worse killer?
I am finding that the 45-70 works better with a jacketed bullet before it starts to match the slower boolits.
It puts doubt in my mind about a fast cast boolit from a .454 too.

[PAT303]

This is a good question.I think that modern calibres don't kill as well for this reason,to much velocity and bullets designed for flight(high BC) instead of game getting ability.I always hunt with FN or RN bullets at a moderate speed and find I get all the performance I need,the game appears to react to the hit rather than turn and run.I think it is like the 45acp,a blunt large dia bullet at a slow speed but proven stopper. Pat

[jhalcott]

You may be on to some thing 44 man. I have notice similar things when shooting with harder alloys(above 16BHN). I used a tiny 7TC/U with 170 grain bullets cast about 13Bhn or softer, to take quite a few deer off a golf course. Only one deer went any distance after the shot. With the 35 Whelen bullets harder than15 or 16 BHN would go thru deer and they would run as far as 2-300 yards.The same bullet cast from ac wheel weight and the same velocity seemed to put the deer down much quicker. I have an older .17 Remington rifle. When I first got it the bullets were harder than the ones available now. I'd shoot a ground hog and see the hit(those things don't recoil enough to miss the hit). I'd get ready to shoot him again when he'd fall over! Often that little bullet would needle on thru before it had a chance to expand. I slowed the bullets to under 3900 fps and had better results. NOW the 17 bullets are a bit softer and more reliable!

[Blackwater]

44Man, the old Brits used to believe in a theory called "dwell time," in which the slower bullet exerted its energy, albeit at a lesser level, over a longer duration of time within the animal, thus imparting a more devastating blow to the animal's nervous system. I've always doubted this, but then, over time, I've seen various things that make me recall that once doubted theory. Still can't say I'm a believer, but I DO tend to wonder about it from time to time.

With hard cast, I wonder if the higher speed causes the sharp areas of the bullets' meplats to become rounded off, and thus reduce their ability to cut veins, arteries and capilaries??? Just a thought. If so, I wonder if switching to a softer alloy might enhance those .45/70 loads? After all, most .45/70 jacketed bullets use pretty soft cores. Have you used the 330 gr. Lyman/Gould HP mould? If so, how'd it do?

The more I've seen in the woods, the more I've come to wonder about a lot of things. As Alice said in Wonderland, "Curiouser and curiouser."

[missionary5155]

Good morning... I am of the Soft Boolit persuasion. I shot steet critters for some years back in the 80´s using 357 and 41 Dan Wessons. Rams at 200 need that good smack so heavy hard boolits and velocity was the ticket. But 50 pounds of steel is not the same game as 30 pounds of ground hog. My lightning fast rock hard linetype was somewhat lacking. Then the brain started working... How come my 357 wadcutters smack (audible) and the Laser light speed boolits slice through and ol dirtdigger waddles home ?
Well I turned to gallon jugs of water and visible saw the difference.. No expansion versus smashed flat. Exploded water jug versus split water jug. So again APPLICATION.
Pop a 30 pound groundhog with a SOFT lead boolit at 1200fps (.357 160 gr or .375 255 gr or.41 220 gr )and it does not waddle anywhere.
So 2005, Illinois decides finally that handguns can kill deer throughout the whole state. I grew up in Michigan (Riverside) and heard all the old stories of popping deer with 38-55. Me I wanted to do that so bad... but never got to. So 2005 I have to choose between 41 mag, 357 mag or 375 Supermag.. Guess what went up the old oak.. the 375 Dan Wesson with a HARD cast (for steel) 255 grain Boolit cronyed at 1340 avg . So first day out steps a smallish spike that I have watched all bow season. 30 yards and he is dead meat my brain says. Squeese, recoil, and little buck just stands there. I am shocked beyond all composure. I shoot ground hogs double that distance. Spiky walks away through a brush row across the bean corner and into the thicket he beds in.
Well I finally climbed down to dig my boolit out of the dirt. Humiliated to the core. Got to the spot and there is a tuft of fir. 5 feet away the first of the slimest blood trail I have ever seen but a steady leak. I know where the deer went but follow the trail.. steady leak... and at the end little Spiky. My first Center Fire Deer. He did not even know he was shot. Autopsy.. perfect round no expansion in and out holes through the lungs right where I aimed. That 375 will flat Smash 50 pound steel rams at 200 meters... with a hard boolit. Why did I choose that load..SUPER accurate and I did not have time to develop a soft cast load.
So for all my shooting and especially hunting.. I shoot the softest posible at the speed I want. I push 30-1 well over 1100fps.. so what if there might be some minor flashing. I only need 1 well placed shot.

[Bret4207]

There's also the theory that the faster bollit puts more shock into the system so the deer doesn't know it's been hit, so to speak. Moderate speed, moderate alloy. All things in moderation.

[44man]

I have recovered many of my boolits from wet newsprint, wood and dug one out of the ground after passing through a deer and the edges of the nose are still sharp.
I am becoming a believer in "DWELL" time now. If I shoot the same boolit from my .45 Colt the internal damage is two to three times worse in a deer then when shot with my 45-70.
I have to wonder if the pressure wave in front of a fast hard meplat is just pushing tissue away from the boolit instead of piling it up and destroying it.
It appears that a faster boolit needs to expand to slow it in the deer so it does more work.
I used a Hornady bullet last season on a buck and it worked great and had much more damage then my hard cast.
This experience has turned my theorys on hard cast WFN boolits on it's head. It looks like as velocity is increased the boolit needs to be softer.
The doe I shot yesterday still had lungs instead of soup in the chest cavity. I used a 378 gr WFN, BHN 22 and double lunged the doe.
Quite a revelation to me since all the deer I have shot with this gun have showed the same results.
Deer shot with the .44, .45 and .475 using the same BHN boolits have been destroyed inside.
Now I have no idea what the harder boolit does in larger and tougher animals.
After seeing this over the last few years, I was stupid to ignore it and change my alloy and thinking about large meplats.

[cajun shooter]

Years ago I tried some hard boolits in a 7mm. I shot a buck about 90 yards away. He just stood there like nothing was wrong. I shot again anhd he turned and walked over a ridge. I looked at my rifle to see if the guys at the camp had screwed with my ammo. Still in shock I went to where the deer had been standing. He was laying about 20 yards away. Both bullets had entered just behind the heart and exited the other side. That was the last time that I used hard boolits

[NSP64]

I have some soft nose boolits loaded for deer this season, I'll post results.



If i get to see a deer.

[44man]

I have preached forever that smaller calibers need to expand but this large caliber, high velocity thing is new to me.
It appears there is a window for each alloy and velocity with large bores too.
The hardest lesson comes when you shoot an animal.

[jeff223]

James this is the same picture i emailed you last week and i think the others would like to see it.i shot this buck with my 45-70 Contender and i used water quenched wheel weight lead 350 grain Ranch Dog boolits.i dont have a clue as to the speed of the boolit but im shooting 30 grains of SR 4759 and my barrel length is 14 inches

i shot the buck at 75 yards the first time and all he did was jump once and then walked behind some trees where i couldnt see him.i thought he went down behind the trees but about a minute later he walked out from behind there and i ended up shooting him again and put him down

after i skinned him i was surprised to see there was very little blood shot meat on the shoulder area compaired to a kill from a jacketed bullet
here's the picture of that buck
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8cf00b3127ccec5ffd8d86c8e00000040O01AZtWzlu4csQ e3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
there is an entrance hole and an exit hole in this picture

here is a picture of a deer that was shot with a 180 grain XTP from a 357max at the same yardage,the 180 grain XTP starts out just over 2000fps.this is the side where the bullet exited
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf02b3127ccec2fa18ba2ef000000010O01AZtWzlu4csQ e3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
there is a big differance between the two bullets but the result was the same,dead deer

[44man]

Jeff, I also had a lot of bloodshot meat but the insides were not damaged as much. I had lungs left when I dressed the deer. I just need more internal damage without blowing up meat.
It is a balancing act for sure.
However there is a difference between blood leaking between connective tissues and destroyed meat. Even an arrow can make a lot of bloodshot areas. It cleans up. Mangled meat does not.

[Larry Gibson]

Jeff223

Your load is probably chugging along at 1100-1200 fps.


44man

I too have been a long time believer in "target dwell time". I became a believer of it with hard cast bullets with impact velocities under 2000 fps some years ago when I had somewhat the same results as you with my 45-70 Siamese Mauser on deer. On elk it was a bit of a different story though. Deer are not all that thick and if a major bone is missed there really isn't much lung for a bullet to work on. I found the same bullet with the velocity dropped down to under 1400 fps caused lots more damage than at 1800 fps. Expanding cast bullets, especially in smaller calibers, always kill quicker. This is why I'm not a fan of the "hard cast bullet" for hunting deer.

While a LEO in NE Oregon I had an opportunity to dispatch many wounded/injured animals both game and domestic. This ranged from dogs up through elk/cows. In revolversregardless of cartridge, I found that the fast stepping lighterwieght HPs and SPs (if they had the impact velocity to expand) always killed deer and deer sized animals quicker than regular weight bullets. This applied to cast and jacketed alike. The expanding bullets always killed quicker than the hard cast SWC and WCs.

Those are my observations.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Larry, hard cast has worked perfect from the .44, .45 and .475 for me. Massive internal damage and no meat loss. Deer rarely go more then 30 yd's.
I agree that fast expanding bullets kill fast but deer that I have shot with my .44 using the 240 gr XTP have left almost no blood trails and the bullets never exit. If I had not seen the deer fall, I might not have found them. Now the 300 gr XTP punches all the way through, kills fast and leaves a lot of blood.
Just busting an animal that might already be on the ground is different then one that might have to be tracked down.
Blowing up the heart on a deer without an exit hole can make it hard to find because they can go 100 yd's before giving it up.
Every time I see a deer fall, I backtrack it to see what the blood spoor is to the spot I shot it. There have been too many bullets where I found almost no blood, sometimes none at all. The biggest offender is the quick expanding bullets that don't exit. They are just one step away from a lost animal.
I have a lot of experience helping neighbors track deer shot with magnum rifles where massive damage is done to meat. They stop bleeding very fast from ragged holes sealing up. A clean cut exit hole, even if bullet size bleeds better, like an arrow hole.
When hunting, there is more to it then just blowing up the innards.
We have to balance internal damage with a good blood trail and minimal meat damage. I can't stand having to throw out one or both shoulders because they are mush.
That does not matter if you just have to dispatch an injured or sick animal. A .22 or a grenade, both will work.
But you are correct about too fast with too hard. A hard boolit with a large meplat works just fine to about 1350 fps or under. I am finding out that when driven faster they kill worse.
Of course a softer, expanding boolit will work for both as long as they stay together and have enough weight to penetrate.
I would never hunt with a very light, fast expanding bullet.

[runfiverun]

flat nose, two holes, and some mush to the boolit.
there i said it again.

[S.R.Custom]

After having shot all my dear last year and this year with Sierra bullets in the .358 Winchester, I'm of the belief that there is such a thing as "using too much gun." And I don't mean that in the classic meat-wasting way... (Why was I using the .358? I was elk hunting at the time.)

All of the dear taken with the .358 wandered off to the tune of 90 to 100 yards before deciding to cooperate. One of them even needed a second shot. All shots were of the classic shoulder/heart/lung variety, and all the bullets recovered --about half-- exhibited spectacular expansion.

On the other hand, in prior years, deer shot with the S&W .44 Mag never wandered off more than 20 yards. And the cleanest kill ever --an instant communion with the earth with no wander time whatsoever-- was accomplished with the .223.

Dunno if this is a function of "dwell," system shock, adrenaline, or divine providence, but I'm finding pretty consistently that using too much gun results in a stubborn animal.

[45 2.1]

I don't shoot anything heavier than the 44 Mag. Handguns became legal for deer in Illinois in 1991. Since that time i've tried many things. If I would use a cast semiwadcutter Keith type boolit, I better shoulder or head shoot the deer if I want it. Shoot one in the ribs taking out the heart/lungs will get me a three hundred yard run, if I can find it in the brush and varied terrain (100 yard view if that). The 41 Mag with semiwadcutters does better than the 44 Mag, it only lets them run from 30 to 80 yards. Shoot one with a soft cast hollow point in the heart lungs with the 45 Colt or 44 Special and it hunches, then falls over where it was shot usually and never travels over 25 yards in worst cases. These are loaded to about 900 to 950 fps. My experience with my hollow point loads shot by me or friends useing them for over 100 deer.

[Larry Gibson]

44man

You all must have some tough deer back there. "Hundreds of yards, 300 yards", never had a heart lung shot deer go anywhere near that distance. None over 50 yards. I've also seen lots of massive exit wounds that left little "blood" trail. That is why I learned long ago to not depend on having a "blood trail" to track deer with. I've never had a 240 XTP that didn't exit. You read posts all the time about their penetration through at through. It's also been many many years ago and many, many deer ago that I switched to a heart/lung shot on animals instead of the "behind the shoulder shot". I've yet to have a deer go more that 50 yards after that shot without being down for good. Exception is shooting deer that are alredy wounded. Man, remind me to stay out of your neck of the woods with a puny .44, no wonder you use a 45-70 BFR! (just kidding:-)

BTW; I never said the heavy cast didn't kill well. I said the faster stepping expanding lighter weight JHP/JFPs killed quicker. That is my experience.

Supermag

Your experience does mirror mine in some instances. Most noteably was the mental state of the animal when shot. My observation is that deer, when not pressed or in a relaxed state, usually die very quick when shot. Deer that are alert and have adreniline pumping are harder to put down. A deer that has been wounded and is moving most often requires a shot that breaks down the skeletal system to put it down. A heart lung shot will seemingly have little intitial effect but will put them down in short order though if already moving fast they can go some distance before going down.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Larry, you are not reading me right. I never said hundreds of yards or 300 yd's EXCEPT they can go even farther with huge holes blown in them from magnum rifles. One went a mile with a hole large enough to put your head in, shot with a 7mm mag. He quit bleeding in 100 yd's.
Also I love the .44 because it puts deer down fast and leaves a tremendous blood trail with a WLN or WFN hard cast boolit.
I have recovered every 240 gr XTP or other 240 gr bullet shot through the lungs on deer. Very little blood on the ground. Shoot one in heavy cover where it goes out of sight instantly and you have a problem. I can see you never spent hours in the dark on your hands and knees looking for a drop of blood with a light.
Here are some that never even cut a rib. One hit bone one the off side of a shoulder.

[44man]

Now here is the heart of my doe shot with a WFN hard cast from my .475.

[44man]

The 45-70 with the same style boolit just pokes a hole through the heart or lungs. The boolits are just too fast for the hardness. A slow hard boolit works great but I lose all of my accuracy with the 45-70 if I slow them down. I need expansion without getting carried away with an explosive boolit.
Yes, the .44 or .45 Colt has proven to be a better deer killer then the faster gun.

[Larry Gibson]

44man

Relax, have a beer...I was joking with you! Didn't you see the "just kidding" and happy face?

Larry Gibson

[grumpy one]

Seems to me there are three different effects going on here, and all of them have been documented to some extent, either in the shooting literature or elsewhere. You need to take account of all three.

1. Very high speed projectiles have a shock effect which disrupts meat for some distance around the wound. I recall shooting a medium-sized feral sow with 30-06 military ball at 210 yards. My buddy had the first shot so I was then confronted with three sows leaving the scene at flank speed, directly across my line of shot. My mission was to get my five shots away, with a straight-bolt mauser, ASAP. You can guess what happened - I misjudged the range and didn't lead the shots, thus hitting one through the hips and one in the back leg. The hip-shot one had a 30 calibre exit wound with a four inch ball of intestine extruded through it, and was bucking like a rodeo horse. After my buddy despatched it, I opened it up and found a four inch diameter cylinder of pink, oozing, disrupted organs/meat the whole way through that pig - but I hadn't really disabled it.

2. Mammals have a circulatory system designed to minimise blood loss following trauma. When they are hit with something seriously massive, their blood pressure drops and the blood vessels constrict in the vicinity of the injury. My interpretation of this in practice is that while hydrostatic shock damages plenty of flesh, it actually reduces the rate of blood loss compared with something like an arrow that slips in quietly and causes much less shock response from the central nervous system and hence less vaso-constriction in the wound region. This is a technical matter way outside my field - there may be physicians on this board who can enlighten us about this issue. I believe this is the same issue, though, which Bret has referred to as "dwell time."

3. The objective with both expanding and meplat bullets is to make a large wound, preferably including a channel to facilitate blood loss. However blood loss won't occur without a source, and bleed-out kills are likely to have the chance to travel a long way unless a major artery or a blood-intensive organ is massively damaged. You need to get in deep, which takes mass: a vastly-mushroomed 22 caliber bullet just ain't going to penetrate that far unless it's about as long as a pencil. So, how big a disruption of the vital organ do we need, and how big a wound channel, provided we haven't shocked the game animal so much that its blood loss is delayed?

[44man]

Well, Grumpy, I see a huge difference in the reactions of deer shot with the .44, .45, .475 and the 45-70. With the faster boolit they just run but with the slower ones they show stress right away.
Remember we are talking about revolvers, not rifles. No matter what you do, the revolver can't match the rifle in shock. Maybe the .460 but using the light, fast bullets, but meat destruction is enormous. I want to kill my deer, not explode them. If I wanted to turn them into a blood cloud, I would use a 300 Weatherby or a .50 BMG at 20 yd's. :mrgreen::mrgreen: But you are saying the same thing, the wrong bullet just doesn't work right.
Larry, I know you were and I am not excited, just more of what happens to me. It just amazes me that the magnum rifle hunters lose more deer, blow up more deer and hit less deer with so many shots. The neighbor shot 6 times the other evening and Marko and I each took one shot with our revolvers for 2 deer. 0 for the neighbor! :bigsmyl2: How in the world can you miss with a scoped rifle??????????

[waksupi]

Using the .358 And cast boolits at around 2100 fps, I have never had a deer or elk go over 40 yards.

[jeff223]

so whats the answer for the 45-70?a softer boolit moving faster?maybe an air cooled wheel weight lead boolit or a soft lead and wheel weight mix?

[44man]

Jeff, you see my 45-70 is so super accurate that I can't change loads. It just needs a certain velocity for each boolit I have so that is going to stay fixed. I am going to have to make the boolits softer so I get expansion, maybe even hollow point a softer nose. It should be a very easy fix. I just never thought that a WFN would do less damage when shot too fast. Deer are not much resistance to a boolit. This has been a revelation to me and I didn't learn fast enough, must be old age! :drinks:

[jeff223]

James i dont recall what boolit you used to kill the deer,was it your 317 or the heavy one?i am wondering about the speeds you are getting from your revolver with the 317 and the heavy one?we are using the same powder and about the same load and we got about the same results after the shot but im sure my boolit speed is higher because of the added barrel lenght.

one fellow says my speed would be around 1100 to 1200 fps but i dont have a clue,all i know im getting great accuracy with the 30 grain charge of sr4759 under the 350 grain Ranch Dog.

maybe i would get the "Hammer of Thor" effect with a 300 grain JHP Remington or Sierra moving at 1700fps

[BABore]

Jeff, you see my 45-70 is so super accurate that I can't change loads. It just needs a certain velocity for each boolit I have so that is going to stay fixed. I am going to have to make the boolits softer so I get expansion, maybe even hollow point a softer nose. It should be a very easy fix. I just never thought that a WFN would do less damage when shot too fast. Deer are not much resistance to a boolit. This has been a revelation to me and I didn't learn fast enough, must be old age! :drinks:

We all commend you on the fine accuracy that you get with your pistols. The big question is if you need it for the deer your shooting. Are you shooting them at extreme ranges like 400 to 500 yards where you need the accuracy. If your only hunting at ranges that are 200 yards and less, where is the need? 4 to 6 inch 200 yard accuracy would be more than adequate. Would it not be more sane to choose a softer alloy for some expansion even though it may not shoot sub inch.

I also think you will find that if you were to cast boolits from an alloy of 50/50 WW-Pb, and water drop them, you would find what you desire. Done correctly, you can get a boolit with a hard (22 bhn) outer shell and softer inner core. They will expand at your velocities. Here's a pic of the same alloy/HT fired from a 480 Ruger at 1,250 fps. It impacted the target board (1/2" OSB) then into soft, sandy, loam soil. Range was 50 yards.

[NHlever]

I was looking at the shadograph pictures of the air shock waves in front of bullets in the Lyman cast bullet manual last night. It occured to me that what we are seeing there in air could be quite similar to what happens in game animals with chest shots. Bodies are more fluid than solid, and water works in a similar way to air. In those shadograph pictures it was obvious that the shape of the shock wave changed with velocity. Those pictures, by the way, seemed to prove out the theory that the shoulder on Keith style bullets doesn't really do much except at low velocities.

[Bret4207]

I was looking at the shadograph pictures of the air shock waves in front of bullets in the Lyman cast bullet manual last night. It occured to me that what we are seeing there in air could be quite similar to what happens in game animals with chest shots. Bodies are more fluid than solid, and water works in a similar way to air. In those shadograph pictures it was obvious that the shape of the shock wave changed with velocity. Those pictures, by the way, seemed to prove out the theory that the shoulder on Keith style bullets doesn't really do much except at low velocities.

Air compresses, fluids don't. I think it's similar but not the same.

[Bass Ackward]

This experience has turned my theorys on hard cast WFN boolits on it's head. It looks like as velocity is increased the boolit needs to be softer.


Ding!!!

The problem is that it also is true for slower. It really isn't the velocity as much as it is the transition from cut to shock. But that is what we control, so it's the tools we have to work with.

This is why I recommend water testing because you can get to compare what you observe visually with how it reacts on game. Too much and in a small animal not requiring it or capable of slowing the slug, it becomes counter productive.

You can also control this with meplat diameter. :grin:

[NHlever]

"Air compresses, fluids don't. I think it's similar but not the same." That is certainly true, and we used both properties to our advantage when designing tooling. Still, there are similiarities when the vessel (body) that contains the fluid will expand enough to allow the fluid to act in a similar way to air. Hide stretches until it's yield strength is exceeded, blood vessels, and organs do the same, though I do think that blood vessels are sometimes just pushed out of the way by RN designs. We look at what the bullets look like after shooting into water jugs, but the jugs tell us just as much about what the bullet is doing to the fluid in the water, though I'm not sure it would point out the dramatic difference between cast RN designs, and WFN, SWC, or WC boolits. I do think that the latter shapes do cut blood vessels, and organs while transmitting a great deal more shock than any RN design ever could. I shot Porcupines with RN boolits in my youth that kept on feeding after being shot in a vital area. I can tell you that Porcupines shot with the latter designs never reacted that way!

[44man]

Jeff, no, I had trouble with the 317 gr as it is more of a WLN. I used my 378 gr this season and it is a WFN design.
I use 31 gr of 4759 with my 317 gr for 1632 fps out of my 10" barrel.
I have not chronographed the 378 but with 30 gr I think it is over 1600 fps.
Babore, you are correct, the problem is I had a bunch of my boolits cast already and figured the meplat would work. I shot your 50-50 boolits with the same accuracy I get with mine so it will be my next step for hunting. No, I don't need the accuracy but just will not give it up. There is no problem shooting softer boolits from my guns. Why I didn't do it to start with must be a mental problem! [smilie=1:I put so much faith in the hard, large meplats because they work so well from the .44 to .475 that I didn't use my head.
I had no clue that faster needs a different alloy.
Now I have to wonder about the rifle guys shooting faster and faster and needing harder alloys as velocity goes up. Is it counter productive for hunting?

[Bass Ackward]

Now I have to wonder about the rifle guys shooting faster and faster and needing harder alloys as velocity goes up. Is it counter productive for hunting?


Wow. I been saying this all along and you used to chide me for it. :grin:

Effectiveness depends on game size and material structure. That's what makes 35 rifle in any caliber so effective on game with cast. There is more margin for error.

You can't over meplat cause you CAN"T get big enough.

You can't go too fast for hardness because you will still expand even the hardest mixes if you do have a meplat. You can't over expand with a soft mix either because you have enough strength from bullet diameter to maintain bullet weight.

Basically, a rifle 35 caliber "for cast" is as close to idiot proof as you can come for "hunting" "deer". When you slow to about 1600 fps, you better start having things right. 35 handgun is critical for meplat size / hardness / velocity and bullet weight is still better off in the hands of someone who has good discipline and judgement. Testing is still critical no matter what our experience level.

So there is no free ride. Proof is how it works on game and how you saw it when you tested it. Shooting phone books works for bear or hog, but it failed me on deer. Water never has ................ yet. (there are no guarantees in shooting or hunting)

[44man]

Bass, right again as usual! But it is a 45-70, not a .35.
And shooting through over 36" of wet phone books has not even rounded the edges on the nose. Just too hard! :Fire:
I was right with the slower guns because hard does work in them. I have never needed expansion with from 1100 to 1350 fps and deer internal damage is amazing. Lungs are GONE.
Here is what a hard boolit does from my .475.

[BABore]

Jeff, no, I had trouble with the 317 gr as it is more of a WLN. I used my 378 gr this season and it is a WFN design.
I use 31 gr of 4759 with my 317 gr for 1632 fps out of my 10" barrel.
I have not chronographed the 378 but with 30 gr I think it is over 1600 fps.
Babore, you are correct, the problem is I had a bunch of my boolits cast already and figured the meplat would work. I shot your 50-50 boolits with the same accuracy I get with mine so it will be my next step for hunting. No, I don't need the accuracy but just will not give it up. There is no problem shooting softer boolits from my guns. Why I didn't do it to start with must be a mental problem! [smilie=1:I put so much faith in the hard, large meplats because they work so well from the .44 to .475 that I didn't use my head.
I had no clue that faster needs a different alloy.
Now I have to wonder about the rifle guys shooting faster and faster and needing harder alloys as velocity goes up. Is it counter productive for hunting?

Soooo! What your really saying is your head is as hard as your boolits.:-D

Have you tried annealing the noses of your hardened boolits with a torch and pan of water. Works real well. You may have to relube them, or do it prior to lubing. WW's will anneal almost dead soft for a day or so, then they will increase hardness slightly to their normal AC'd (10-12 bhn) state. Still works fine though. Boolits act like a Nosler Partition.

I alloy most all my boolits with hunting in mind. That's why I settled on the 50/50 alloy. You can play alot of tricks with the heat treat and achieve a hard skin and soft core if you want that. It also works extremely well with HV rifle loads. Less antimony eliminate most all of the grey wash which creates a fouling issue on long strings.

[44man]

[quote=BABore;440252]Soooo! What your really saying is your head is as hard as your boolits.
You got that right! :bigsmyl2:
I am going your way next year or I will cast a pure lead nose.

[jeff223]

James i have about 20 pounds of pure soft lead to mix with some wheel weight lead.im going to cast some 50/50 mix and air cool them then im going to load and shoot for accuracy and i hope there is no leading.if i get good accuracy i will hunt next year with the 50/50 mix but im going to push them as fast as i can so i get some good boolit expansion upon impact.

i want to be able to put an animal down as fast as i can on the opening day of the firearm season here in Michigan.if you get a long run out of a lung shot deer on the opening day you could loose your deer.we have alot of Elmers and Shemp hunters here in Michigan and they will and do steal deer if they get a chance,i have lost a few over the years.its not to bad after the first day though

[44man]

One of my friends was from Michigan. I loaded his hunting ammo and he would not use anything but Ballistic Tips. He said the deer had to drop fast or it would be stolen. But boy did he ruin a lot of meat! :mrgreen:
PA was the same way. If you hung a deer, it would be gone in the morning even if it was on the back porch.
Around here I can't even give a deer away but we still have spot lighters. Too lazy to get permission or get their fat butts off the truck seat.

[Heavy lead]

44man, your friend was not kidding. I am a fan of BT's for varmints and accuracy and small deer, but only with a bigger caliber. The partition I have found works almost as fast and will drive deeper. But in some places, not all, in this state it IS really like that on public dirt. I'm in a shotgun area only (or handgun) myself, mostly private, so it isn't too much like that here.

[Bass Ackward]

The problem is that you can't make a guide or a chart. Hard vs soft depends what you do with it. Up to 1000 fps in a 45 Colt, soft works wonders, but hard performs better for some guys who usually stay above that level. Again it just depends on too many things to factor. And then as you go faster, you may need to decrease meplat or soften again.

That is why I always say to test once you find something that works. Remember, what your test results were like and try to mimic that with what you change too.

Going with the thought that more damage is always a good thing can't be trusted.

[9.3X62AL]

Bass et al--

Sticking strictly with handguns here........how do you think that soft-pointing per BruceB's method would affect potential lethality? My particular intests are in 44 Special or Magnum, with #429421 running 1050-1100 FPS and in 45 Colt with #454424 at similar velocity. Nose would be Pb, drive band area 92/6/2. Quarry would be muleys and blacktails running under 150#, shots at or under 50 yards.

[44man]

Bass, I have killed a bunch of deer with my .45 Vaquero with hard cast LBT 335 gr WLNGC and the Lyman that casts at 347 gr. My velocity is 1160 and 1167 fps. It is like the deer are struck by lightning. None have gone anywhere after I hit them. I am very pleased with hard boolits from this gun.
I don't think you need softer with slower. I think you need softer with faster.
Now softer with slower also works because expansion is less and penetration is still there. So I will say it does not matter too much which way you go with the slower guns, either works fine.
The window for effective alloys is very wide until velocity gets too high.
I watched Time Warp on TV last night and they showed bullets in flight using a special process that showed the air and pressure waves in front of the bullet. The lines were leaving the nose at about a 45* angle as the air was compressed. Nothing was touching the sides of the bullet. (Do you think the edge of a semi-wadcutter is doing anything?) I have watch similar tests in the past. I would like to see this test done with flat nose boolits and all different velocities. I am willing to bet that ALL would be pushed out of the way with high velocity.
The need to SLOW the boolit in game by expanding the boolit seems obvious.
My question would be; is it the reduction in speed that puts tissue into boolit contact or is it just expansion to a larger boolit that does the actual work? Or is it both?
I have always said that bullet velocity does not in itself, make a bullet more lethal but how it makes the bullet work is what does the job. One bullet at 4000 fps can blow the skin off of a deer without getting inside but a solid can just poke a tiny hole with no effect and the deer can even survive.
The primary wound channel and it's size is only controlled by bullet work and control of what it does at the velocity it is shot at.
Bass, put your mind to work and figure out the perfect range of boolit hardness and alloys for each caliber, boolit weight and velocity for the maximum killing power without destroying meat! :drinks:
I think you will find that even when shot slow, too soft or explosive is no good. Shot too fast and neither is any good either.
I give you the next 100 years to work! [smilie=1:

[the_ursus]

I know this thread died a few months ago but after reading it I though I'd share my close hunting partner's experience.

We were hunting Sitka blacktails here in SE Alaska and were carying .44mags. I know, .44mags aren't the best choice for brown bears but they do at least provide a false sense of security when out and about. So my partner walks up on a good buck by surprise and slowly drops down to one knee for a steadier shot. Maybe it was because of the "rut-craze" but the deer just puts its head down and starts walking right at him! 50-40-30-20yds then stops head on and raises his head a bit and exposes his chest. This deer is gonna wise up and bolt any minute so it's time to shoot. He squeezes off a Corbon factory round of 320 hard cast at, I believe, around 1200fps from is Super Black Hawk. Dang! Miss!! The deer stares at him for a couple of seconds then turns 180 and trots off and out of sight roughly 75yds through the timber. Dave is shaking his head is disbelief and sick to his stomach. Well, lets give it few minutes then go make sure it was a clean miss. Fast forward about 30min, no blood at all and just about to call off the search and there he is laying dead at the base of a tree over 75 yards from the location of the shot. Autopsy revealed one .44 cal hole punched in the chest and one .44 cal hole punched out the back side of a ham.

We had recovered the deer which is all well and good but if that had been a brown bear? Granted, a bear's overall length would have provided a longer channel of resistence for the path of the slug we were seriously rethinking the slugs we had chosen for "stopping power". Since then we both agreed that somthing that expands or has a little more "dell time" might have been a better choice. We've been carying 300gr Swift A-frams and Hornady XTP's since. Again, the .44mag is a poor choice for brown bear protection but it's what we like to hunt deer with so we load them heavy to get the most we can in the event they are needed.

Just thought I'd share.

[pjh421]

This is a quite an interesting thread. I didn't realize (lack of experience) how such large bullets could fail on something as small as a deer. It really makes me re-think my assumptions. Anyway, I believe I've been criticized here before for saying this but I still believe it. Handgun hunting is, well, interesting. We do it for the challenge. That doesn't make it the best practice though. So...if you're going after an animal that can attack and kill you, someone in your immediate vicinity had better be carrying a rifle that can dismantle a bear. And not by a slender margin either. I think someone said that you could be attacked and killed before you could get the rifle into action. Well that probably holds true for a handgun too. It would certainly hold true were the rifle left back at home. This thread reminds me of Dale 53's comment on another thread about shooting heavy cast boolits end for end through deer from the .45 Colt. I've never used such a combination but these threads have sparked an interest to try. Thanks.

Paul