Thoughts on converting a .223 to 22-250 Remington

[PatMarlin]

I'm thinking one of the reasons other 22 caliber cartridges perform better with cast than the .223 Remington is the neck lenght.

What I'm wondering is if a .223 can be converted to a 22-250 by just reaming? And- can that be done without removing the barrel from my short action?

[Scrounger]

Yes, the .223 Rem can be rechambered to .22-250 but it is likely a waste of time and money. You can increase the velocity about 10% which is not applicable to cast bullets because you can never get jacketed velocities out of them. But the .22-250 also has a short neck, but that's irrelevant also, because the cast bullet problem in the .223 is caused by the rifling twist being too quick. To get decent cast bullet performance in a .22 caliber rifle, you need to find or rebarrel one with a 14 inch twist barrel. Before the .223 came along, .222 Rem and .22-250s had 14" twist and they shot cast very well. Then the military changed the original .223s from 14 inch to 12 inch twist because they were using longer boattail bullets; then they went even farther and changed them to a 7-1/2 inch twist. Most commercial manufacturers then changed their barrels to 9 or 10 inch twists to handle the available military ammo. Try to find an older Remington in .222 or even .22-250 if that is your preference. The .222 can be very easily converted to a .223.

[Heavy lead]

I have 2 22-250's currently and 3 223's, I like the 2 22-250 rifles I have, but I wish they were chambered to 223. I have not found anything I cannot do the 223 I could do with the larger round. As far as cast, I do not know, cause I've never cast for that small of boolit. I think if I were to make or buy a dedicated cast shooter I would choose neither, I would go with the 222. I'm working on a project right now with a 788 with a wrecked barrel. I'm thinking 14 twist, but maybe 12. That neck is so stinking long it's not funny.

[Bullshop]

Cant just ream the chamber you have to open up the bolt face and extracter. Also there is quite a lot of metel to be removed to go to the bigger case so for any precision in the chamber cut it will have to be done on a lathe, barrel removed. Done by hand will almost certanly result in an out of round chamber.
BIC/BS

[wiljen]

Why not set the barrel back a turn and rechamber to .222 You lose about 9% case capacity to the 223 but is has the neck you are after and is near perfect for cast boolits. You wouldnt have to open the bolt face up either.

[Larry Gibson]

Patmarlin

Most "other" .22 perform better than the .223 is because of the fast twist in most new .223s. The "other" .22s still have 14" twists. A 12" twist .223 does pretty well. My old m700V has a 12" twist and I can approch within 150 fps or so of the velocity I get from the 14" twist 22-250 with equal accuracy. Biggest mistake I ever made was trading off a M788 in .222 with a 24" 14' twist barrel. Better than rechambering would be to rebarrel to .222 with a 14" twist barrel. Then if that doesn't suit your fancy with cast bullets you can put the old .223 barrel back on or rechamber the new barrel to .223.

Larry Gibson

[Three44s]

I would say that a .222 with the slower twist would be the ticket rather than a .22-250 for cast.

But what about going to a wildcat with a larger bore based upon the .222/.233 case family.

You would have choices from 6mm and up on the larger side (only way that would make sense for cast) and a pretty good thumper to boot? Staying with a .222 or even a .221 case, you would retain that looooong neck that's desirus for your endeavor.

Just for reference, Kimber made a run of a cartridge that was a .25/.233 for a time.

Regards

Three 44s

[PatMarlin]

I've decided I pretty much want to keep what ever change I make based on the .223 cart. I realize now going 22-250 would be to much of a hassle.

I really would like a 300 whisper because of the low noise aspect. .222 would be my next option also.

Cost of the conversion is a consideration. I've got some email enquiries out to gunsmith shops, but no one has returned a reply as yet.

Neat idea with the .25/.233.

My Howa's got the 1in12 .223, but cast performance has been rather dismal. I've got other .223 rifles, so I need to convert this one.

[Scrounger]

Pat, have you considered rebarrelling it to 7TCU or .30TCU, sometimes called the .30 Ugalde for Wes Ugalde who thunk up all those wildcats using the .223 case as a base. Advantages with the TCU cartridges (and there are other calibers, 6mm, 6.5mm, .25 cal) are that no change is necessary to the bolt face and magazine feeding should be OK. Add light in recoil but powerful enough for deer at 100-150 yards.

[exblaster]

Pat how about a 223 1/2 conversion? use 222 mag brass and a 223 die set. all you need to do is re throat the chamber.

Exblaster

[felix]

If I were in Pat's shoes, I would use 223 cases and make a neck length equal to that of the 222, but in 25 caliber instead. I would specify a 7 land barrel at 0.250/0.258, 14 twist, and 22 inches finished. Reamed with a 30 degree shoulder, no freebore with 1.5 degree leade, neck diameter = 0.258 + 0.011 + 0.011 + 0.001. ... felix

[Bullshop]

You can not do the TCU cartridges in a magazine rifle unless you want it to be a single shot. The TCU cartridges get the performance they get because being designed for single shots they have the bullets seated out to utilise the case volume for powder.
When you have a 7mm 140gn bullet with its base seated to the base of the neck it is way too long to fit any magizine on a short action rifle. The TCU reamers are designed to have extreamly long throats to accomidate this type long seating so even if you were able to deap seat a boolit to feed through the magazine I wouldnt expect much for accuracy.
Felix as usual is right on with the 25 wildcat. I have a 25 copperhead as designed by John Whooters and it is an outstanding performer. It shoots about as flat as the 222 that it is based on but as I recall in the Handloader article has more energy than the 30/30 at all ranges. The 25 copperhead (25/222) should function through the action of anything that was a 223. And talk about an outstanding boolit rifle!!!
BIC/BS

[Scrounger]

Never owned a Howa, but I bet they use the same size magazine in the .223 as they do in the .308 (The link below confirms that), I know Remington did, they just put a spacer in it to shorten the available magazine length. For money and time reasons, most manufacturers find it bad enough having a long and a short receiver, much less adding a "real short" one. Pat could look at and decide the possibilities.

http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=851640A&chrSuperSKU=851640&MC=

[PatMarlin]

Thanks everyone. Hmmm... possibilities are endless.

Definitely want to use .223 cases as I have a tons of them.

Daniel- have you ever played with the whisper and what do you think of it? I would like the option of deer in close without a bunch of noise.

Sub or post sonic, deer to rabbits and use of my 30 cal molds. It sure sounds nice to me.

[Three44s]

Pat,

You might want to take a gander at what Bullshop mentioned:


http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_printable.cfm?metallicid=2710&MW=&PM=&PT=

The .25/.222 Copperhead .......

Three 44s

[Bullshop]

No Pat I have never used any of the whisper cartridges. I see no reason why they wouldnt work the same way. The one big differance between the 300W and the 25 copperhead will be trajectory. The 25 retains about the same trajectory as the parrent 222 and owning a 223 you will understand how usefull that is. The whisper will have a higher trajectory than a 30/30 (guessing) so will make shot placment a bit more tricky out there at 250 or so while the 25 CH is childs play at that range and a bit beyond.
I would say if you go with the whisper keep your range finder handy.
Do you have enough room in that action for a 257 Kimber? That is on the 222 mag case and about duplicates 250 Savage balistics, 87gn bullets at 3000 fps.
BIC/BS

[PatMarlin]

I can't nearly get a shot off past 75 here ...:mrgreen:

Well I'm still leaning whisper cause I have a pile of 30 cal molds and .223 brass. I think 222 would be next in line. I just don't want to buy any more molds right now, and I sold the only 25cal I had.

Boy these gunsmiths must be busy cause they don't return emails.

[Scrounger]

Don't forget to tip them; next time they'll answer your email.

[PatMarlin]

LOL ..:mrgreen:

[Bullshop]

I got to thinking last night about another issue with the 300W. That may be twist. Of cource you could order what ever twist you want but then it wouldnt really be a 300 whisper.
As I recall it was not only the chamber design that made it a whisper but a twist that would stabalise the very long 220gn and 250gn Sierra match VLD bullets at subsonic velocities. They were looking for a load that could be silenced not supressed and still penitrate light armer at the ranges it would be used. Same idea with the 500 whisper.
I dont recall what twist it took but it must have been pretty fast.
I remember trying some of the Sierra 220 match kings in a 300 Weatherby with a 1/10" twist and it was a no go.
If you plan on using your 223 brass cut back you will likely be in for a surprise. The brass is beginning to get thicker at that point so will require reaming or turning in addition to the triming.
Maybe you should just keep it 223. Tell ya what, I am upgrading my 22 cal swaging systam. I will be selling my old dies for use in a loading press and going to a die set I can use in the wallnut hill press or the mighty might press. If you get a set of swage dies, and jacket maker dies you will be in good shape with the 223. These bullets swaged with 22 rf case jackets shoot perty good specially if your long shots are 75 yards like you said. I will let ya know when if your interested.
BTW I did just notice another thread just a bit ago titled 30/221 or sumthin like that.
BIC/BS

[PatMarlin]

Just got a price on a rebore job from Delta gunshop.

To do what they call a "Rebore with new neck and throat" converting my .223 howa stainless to a 30 cal using .223 brass is $350 with 4mo turnaround.

I can specify twist and groove diameter.

One possible problem though is some Howas have had the barrel peened in the action, and they can't get them off. They have to do a recessed cut to get it off, then do a barrel setback etc., and the labor goes up to a possible $425.

Can't find any barrel blanks in 30cal 1in9. Need to check more on barrel replacement costs. This idea is getting expensive. ...:mrgreen:

[Willbird]

http://www.pac-nor.com/

Pacnor makes 1/9 twist in a 3 groove and a 5 groove.

FWIW I would just use either 8 or 10 which is a more "off the shelf" barrel. 1/8 is what is typically used with 300 whisper. The 300 whisper has some issues with a constant force plunger ejector like the 700 rem uses. Not sure what your Howa has but the short length of the case is the problem, the rem type ejector(used on other guns too) pushes the case against the inside of the reciever ring until the bolt is retracted far enough to let it fly free, with a case as short as the 300 whisper the end result is that it flips it right into the receiver ring.

Myself I think you would like a longer necked 300 whisper, your going to typically have to make the brass from 222 or 223 anyway due to short supplies typically of 221 fireball brass, so why not just leave the neck .100" or .150" longer to begin with ?? You can still use off the shelf 300 whisper dies then, which is a plus.

For a purely cast bullet rifle I would think about an 18" to 20" very heavy contour barrel, probably a #8.

I can quote you a price on fitting and chambering a barrel, I will return your emails :-). PM me if your interested. I have an FFL so you can ship to me, and I am setup to fit and chamber barrels.


Bill

[PatMarlin]

Sounds good Bill, and I'll PM to see what we can do.

I had given up on the idea with the costs.

I like the longer neck. My goal has been to use .223 fired brass.

[MT Gianni]

PAt, I read an article last night on Leverguns. It was on a 223 improved. Paco Kelley runs his loads hot but claimed almost 400 fps increase over standard with an improved 223.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/223imp.htm

[PatMarlin]

That's interesting John.I'll have to look that up. I'm .223 heavy with 3 of them, and no great cast boolit performance which bothers me these days. I don't want to buy copper. I got to get back working on my Marlette design.

Now the 300 whisper- that's one I want to own, based on .223 brass. I may have to rebarrel my Howa, but I'm waiting to up my skill level so I can do it myself.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Myra's Gun Shop in Broken Hill use to do a lot of wildcatting. One of thier favourites was a 6mm on a 223 case (they did it on a 222 as well I think). Always fancied one.

It's been raining 222s here recently. I picked up a 788 in 222 and a Savage Combo in 222/20Ga recently. There are two guys tring to sell me a 222 at the moment, ones a BSA and I haven't seen the other one yet. Haven't seen many for years, then there's a glut of them. The 788s seem to be coming out of the woodwork as well as Savage 23s in 25/20 and more so in 32/20. Didn't know they existed until a year or so ago, now they're everywhere, same as 92 in small calibres. Looked for a 92 in 25/20 for years, found four at a gunshow, cheeeze, it never rains, but it pours.

I have a 1985 made Sako 222 Hunter which is on it's fifth barrel, the last three barrels have been 223s. I wanted a fast twist this time, but my shell shocked, agent orange (and beer) befuddled mate fitted a 1 in 12. I didn't have the heart to go crook. It delivers 50 and 55Gn J words like the hammer of thor. Point it, things die, simple as that. What you have to watch though with conversions is the length of the loaded round, mine won't eject loaded ammo because the opening is too small (another job he forgot to do :( )

Four Fingers.

[PatMarlin]

7.62x40mm

Great looking round based on the .223 rem case. Looks like this one that Starmetal Joe sent me:

http://www.ar15.com/forums//topic.ht...=382761&page=1

I want to build one.

[gary0529]

Pat,

I have and use a 300 Whisper with a suppressor and my current favorite deer load is a cast 200 grain spitzer. Currently using 13.4 gr. H-335 and able to sneak in 5 shot groups 1 inch all day long at 100 yards. 5o yd. POI is round 3" high based on 100 yard zero.
If you want to go heavier, you can always use Sierra 240 gr. HPBT very accurate load.
The barrel is an 8 twist - necessary for the heavier, longer bullet.

Feel free to PM me if you have questions.
I believe you still have my e mail address from an ongoing purchase of a docking system.

Gary

[rockrat]

Kind of like a 30 TCU

[Bullshop Junior]

I had a Remington 788 in 223 and it shot cast boolit extremy well.
You just need to use the right boolit lube.
Bullshop speedgreen. Nothing else will break the butter.

[PatMarlin]

Thanks Gary-

It is on my wish list. I'm thinking of converting my 223 Howa one of these days. A friend of mine has a walnut farm and has milled some clairo blanks for me. They are gorgeous. I'm thinking of a dual stock rifle with plastic for hunting.

The Howa is stainless, and should look great with the walnut. Just need to decide on a rebore/chamber or new barrel. Wonder what a blued bbl would look like with a stainless action? Farily high yuk factor? ..:mrgreen:

Speedgreen has worked great for me JR. Plus I like the name ...:mrgreen:

[Four Fingers of Death]

I got to thinking last night about another issue with the 300W. That may be twist. Of cource you could order what ever twist you want but then it wouldnt really be a 300 whisper.
As I recall it was not only the chamber design that made it a whisper but a twist that would stabalise the very long 220gn and 250gn Sierra match VLD bullets at subsonic velocities. They were looking for a load that could be silenced not supressed and still penitrate light armer at the ranges it would be used. Same idea with the 500 whisper.
I dont recall what twist it took but it must have been pretty fast.
I remember trying some of the Sierra 220 match kings in a 300 Weatherby with a 1/10" twist and it was a no go.
If you plan on using your 223 brass cut back you will likely be in for a surprise. The brass is beginning to get thicker at that point so will require reaming or turning in addition to the triming.
Maybe you should just keep it 223. Tell ya what, I am upgrading my 22 cal swaging systam. I will be selling my old dies for use in a loading press and going to a die set I can use in the wallnut hill press or the mighty might press. If you get a set of swage dies, and jacket maker dies you will be in good shape with the 223. These bullets swaged with 22 rf case jackets shoot perty good specially if your long shots are 75 yards like you said. I will let ya know when if your interested.
BTW I did just notice another thread just a bit ago titled 30/221 or sumthin like that.
BIC/BS

G'Day, Pat, Dan,
I remember reading an article when the 300Whisper first came out (by the guys that developed it I think). They were using 240 Gn bullets (thinking about it, I think they were heavier, 260s or something). The went to a 6 1/2" twist, but it just drilled straight through anything they shot, so they ended up with a bit slower, but I'll be dinged if I can remember, an 8" twist seems to sound right, but I wouldn't bet on it.

You could always re-chamber to a 222 mag which has a longer neck I think, but setting it back and rechambering to a 222 would be a bit more expensive, but still ok. I can't remember what your twist was (I can't remember much at all it seems, I'd best be getting off to bed).

One option is find a 222 on teh gunshop shelves.They would gladly swap for a 223 which will sell alot quicker. I don't get too excited about brass and fiddling around with 223 cases, these cases last a long time, especially with cast and a couple hundred won't break the bank and will keep you out of mischief for a long while.