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View Full Version : Savage No. 4 Mk I (.303Br.) Questions



Maven
12-21-2005, 08:49 PM
KCSO, et al., I've been thinking about purchasing one of these, but I have a few questions. Although the bbl.'s (lands & both grooves) are at least VG, the serial no's. on the receivers and bolts do not match: Should I be concerned? Also, what is a "flip sight." I know it's the rear sight, but is it an aperture type and if so, adjustable for windage & elevation or just elevation? I also read on Steve Redgewell's .303Br.com site that it is desirable to change bolt heads, say from a #2 to a #3 to decrease headspace and case bulging, given the generous chambers on SMLE's. Is this so and if it is, how difficult is it to do? Lastly, are the bore dimensions of the 2-groove Savages likely to be .312" - .314" or larger? I.e., I'd like to be able to use a CBE/Jim Allison fat Loverin or Ly. #314299 @ .314" rather than a custom job. I'd even be willing to paper patch to fit the bore if that's feasible. Thanks in advance for your help!

45 2.1
12-21-2005, 09:16 PM
Maven, i've had one of these for the last two years. I'm shooting a 0.314" Fat 30 with SR4759 in mine which is a two groove. The flip sight is like the early 30 carbine sights, just an apeture on each leg for 300 and 600 meters. Not adjustable for windage or elevation. Bolt heads are easy to change, providing you can find a higher numbered one. In lue of that, they can be removed from the bolt body by unscrewing. Headspace can be altered by another numbered bolt head or by heliarcing materail on the bolt face, turning it down for proper headspace, redrill the firing pin hole thru the welded portion and replacing the extractor. These are better rifles than the general english made ones.

BruceB
12-21-2005, 10:03 PM
Gents;

I love the Lee Enfield rifles, but handloading for them requires some extra attention, if we want the brass to go more than two or three firings.

Changing bolt heads only affects the headspacing of the case rim, because that's where the case butts up to a stop. I've seen MANY #4s in which the case shoulder would move forward almost a QUARTER OF AN INCH on first firing. Changing a few thousandths in rim headspace via bolt-head change will NOT correct that condition. The headspacing on the rim allowed the makers to use grossly-oversized chambers which would accomodate mud, crud, and the ammunition from literally dozens of factories located all around the world, wherever the Union Jack flew (or used to fly).

The best way I've found to reduce case separations is to start with brand-new UNfired brass, because serious damage occurs in the web area on the very first firing. I expand the necks of the new cases to .35 caliber by firstly using a .30 Carbine expander die to put a good bell on the mouth, a flare which is just large enough to allow a .38 Special expander to enter. The cases are then all expanded with the .35-caliber expander, with no bell needed.

Once all the cases are expanded in this manner, I then begin sizing-and-trying one case in the .303 sizer, screwing the die progressively further down and trying the case in the rifle after each adjustment, until the case will just barely allow the bolt to close. This technique creates a "false shoulder" which will support the front of the case and NOT allow the case body to blow forward on first firing, and thus eliminating that first extreme and destructive stretching.

From then on, ONLY size the neck area and leave the shoulder untouched. In this way, we are headspacing the rounds just like a rimless case, (i.e.: on the shoulder) and case life is vastly improved. Incidentally, a .308 Winchester sizer die makes a dandy neck-sizer for .303s, and one can either use its own expander ball or substitute the one from the .303 sizer die, again depending on the particular rifle/bullet/etc combination.

The oversize chambers and the resultant damage to cases are the one reason that I don't even pick up once-fired .303 brass, and for me, that's saying something! New brass is the way to go, and then get it fitted to your personal rifle's chamber as above. Some of my current brass has been fired at least ten times each, and I have another couple hundred rounds still untouched in factory boxes for the future.

Frank46
12-22-2005, 02:51 AM
BruceB, any specific brass that you prefer?. I have a bunch of greek HXP 303 ammo thats in pretty good shape. My only concern would be removing the stab crimped in primers. Or could I resize as you describe with the primers in place and remove the decapping pin from the expander?. This way I could use the factory primer as part of a fire forming load and then rework the primer pocket (stab crimp) and then preceed as normal. Or would you suggest that I use some never fired Privi Partizan 303 brass that I have been saving specifically for cast bullet brass. That is if I can find them. My stash is full of freezer bags with all sorts of brass so that may take awhile. Frank

BruceB
12-22-2005, 06:47 AM
Good morning, Frank.

I don't have a preference as to brass make in most of the calibers I load, but it seems that Winchester and Remington are most common on my bench....as one might expect? I do have a bunch of Federal 7.62x39 which is horrible for neck-wall variation. It's so bad that some cases don't even touch the expander ball AT ALL after sizing, while others seem to have the normal amount of "drag" when passing over the ball. I must say, though, that Federal brass in other calibers has worked quite well for me.

The .303 brass I'm using right now is Remington-made, but my reserve stock of new cases is all Winchester because I fell into a good deal from a friend.

The Greek HXP .303 ammo has a very good reputation, as far as I've heard, but I have no personal experience with it. I'd do just as you suggest, and remove the decapping pin so as to save the issue primers. No need to waste them!

Re-reading my post above concerning the Enfield chambers, I think maybe I'll go out back in the morning and measure some fired cases vs. unfired ones, and see just how far the shoulder had to be moved forward to fill the chamber properly in my post-war #4 Mk2. I expect that non-wartime rifles might be a little bit better in this regard, but I'm not counting on it. Measuring the change might give folks a better idea of the severity of the re-shaping that takes place.

I had RCBS make me a custom sizing die for my .303 Bren Mk I Light Machinegun many years ago, but even that didn't help much. If I took the Bren out for some shooting with handloads, it was a positive guarantee that at some point I'd be using the broken-case extractor during the shoot. Fortunately, it's a dead-easy removal job.

dromia
12-22-2005, 08:06 AM
Mismatched bolt and rifles are unusual and not the norm, but not the end of the world, I used to have a LB 2 groover with a mismatched bolt and it would hold the black for me at 900yrds at Bisley with the issue sights (not the 300/600yrd flip) and jacketed ammo when I did my bit.

Bruce is right about headspacing on the shoulder rather than the rim with fireforming and he is doing some partial full length resizing, me I just use the Lee collet die to neck size once fired cases. The Prvi stuff is fine, thiner brass than the HXP. For jacketed I have to back of the load a grain or so if using HXP due to the lower case acpacity.

I prefer the Lee collet as it doesn't use a neck expander. Every four or five shots I do need to set the shoulder back a bit as the chambering gets a tad tight, I use the Redding body die for this.

I use the Lyman .314" in all my .303"s and expect as a matter of course 2" groups at 100yrds. Some do better with some tweaking.

I need to size it down for my Metford barrels as they are nearer .308", a softish alloy helps the bullet set up in very wide grooves but I find the .314 works well with WW and some range scrap, mainly .22".

Powder 16-18 gns of 2400 always delivers or I find slightly better accuracy with 17-19 gns of Viht N110, my favourite lead load powder.

I will be trying AA 5744 in the spring though as its the cheapest here in the UK with all other US powders running at well over $60, with Hodgdon around $70 in some places. A lb of AA comes in at just under $50 a lb which is slightly cheaper than Viht.

The three point primer crimp on the HXP just comes out with twist of the deburring tools pointy end when trimming the cases.

I'd love to be able to shoot the Bren again.

BTW the No4 is not a SMLE, that nomeclature only refers to the No1 Rifle, the No2 rifle is a .22" training version of the No1, the No3 is the P14 and then the No4 was developed pre WW2.

Is it a No4 Mk1 or a MK1*? If its a Mk 1 then its a reasonably rare Savage. The early Chicopee rifles were nicely made I've got one with a 6 groove barrel with is fixed not free floating but thats another story.

BruceB
12-22-2005, 12:05 PM
How do, y'all?


Here are some figures derived from fired Remington cases and UNfired Winchester brass. Note that all the loadings fired from the Remington brass were rather lightly-loaded cast-boolit rounds. I mention this because the Remingtons do NOT show the normal highly-obvious expansion just ahead of the web area which occurs when full-power loads are fired. This is usually enough to create an obvious bulge where the brass thins down internally.

From the head of the case, the distance to the base of the neck is 1.883" for the UNfired WW cases and 1.945" on the fired Remington brass. This amounts to a forward movement of the neck's base of 0.062", or almost precisely 1/16". I've seen a lot of rifles which do MUCH worse! The diameter at the shoulder is .395" unfired, and .410" on the fired cases, for a net increase of 0.015".

As mentioned previously, the secret to reasonable brass life in the .303 service rifles lies in retaining the as-fired dimensions as much as possible, so that the brass doesn't fail from work-hardening under such excessive out-of-spec conditions.

BruceB
12-22-2005, 12:18 PM
dromia;


".....he is doing some partial full length resizing...",

Actually, by using the .308 die as described, I avoid touching the case body at all.


"I use the Lyman .314" in all my .303"s and expect as a matter of course 2" groups at 100yds. Some do better with some tweaking."

Now that, sir, is some VERY nice shooting. I agree with the .314 sizing, but to date I haven't been anywhere near that successful. My rifle is a new-condition 1955 Fazakerly with the Parker-Hale 5C sight and iris aperture, so the equipment should be capable, eventually.


"I will be trying AA 5744 in the spring though as its the cheapest here in the UK with all other US powders running at well over $60, with Hodgdon around $70 in some places. A lb of AA comes in at just under $50 a lb which is slightly cheaper than Viht."


Ye GODS, man! Your powder costs are horrible! Are you quoting the prices in US dollars, I expect? Those teensy charges of 2400 look VERY attractive with costs like that. I use a good bit of 5744 myself, but only have to pay about $18 per pound, ten minutes from home.


"I'd love to be able to shoot the Bren again."

So would I, because it's in Canada and I'm in the USA, and the gun is non-importable. The Bren is probably my all-time favorite firearm in a fifty-year shooting 'career'.

dromia
12-22-2005, 01:41 PM
That Faz is a Mk2 and as such probably hasn't seen must use, its more than likely that the barrel isn't worn in yet.

A new barrel, I have a few No1s and 4s still in wraps, can take up to 500 rounds of jacketed to settle down and group consistently in my experience, usually a couple of hundred does it.

Have you slugged the bore? Those MK2 barrels are usually tightly speccied so a .314" could need sizing down.

Yes thats US$ prices converted from sterling, alot of the extra cost is due to Bastard Blairs anti gun legislation under the guise of anti terrorism making the transport costs high.

Bastard Blairs attitude is if you can't get the guilty persecute the innocent instead.

Frank46
12-23-2005, 03:31 AM
Bruce B, well here I am again, its 1:17 here in loosiana. I have a 1949 #4MKII. Has had about 500 rds jacketed through it. I've tried the greek HXP, sellier and Bellot, remington and winchester. You know what that rifle likes. Good old 1980's vintage south african ball.
Sould have bought a couple cases when it was on the market. Unfortunately it ain't and I'm down to about 600 rounds. Also its berdan primed. Very good brass, does not show any bulges ahead of the web. But the case neck does move forward at least 1/16". The winchester 180 grain power point was the most brutal load I ever fired in that rifle. Remington ammo gave rather frightening bulges ahead of the web. I've shot groups at 100yds that measured 2", not bad for old eyes. At present it has an a.j.parker buttstock on it and lines up nicely with the iron sights. Was thinking of getting a parker hale backsight for it. I have a paramount rear sight base which fits the #4 but my paramount target sight causes problems with the bolt. Your suggestions are what I just might need to keep the old girl chugging along. I have the lyman #314299 which casts .314 on the body and .303 on the nose with wheelweights and 2% tin. Same bullet that I use in my model 27 finnish reworked moisin nagant. That rifle will do 2" groups also. Thats one rifle thats not for sale.
Funny thing I got it in trade for a #4MKI which showed some wierd tendencies with jacketed ammo. But the guy I got it from only shot cast in it and the bore islike a mirror.
Regards Frank

Blackwater
12-23-2005, 11:48 PM
Bass and the rest, have any of you ever used a small charge of fast powder and cream of wheat, topped by some parafin or similar to lock it in? Haven't done this, but many report that this is THE way to make Ackleyized brass, and seems it might be useful here? The cases are greased before chambering, so they'll "slide" into correct position as they expand. This is also supposed to help eliminate the thin spots ahead of the web that come from firing full bulleted charges in too long chambers.

Just a thought? The reason I asked is I thought about doing this in my #4.

45 2.1
12-24-2005, 12:08 AM
Bass and the rest, have any of you ever used a small charge of fast powder and cream of wheat, topped by some parafin or similar to lock it in? Haven't done this, but many report that this is THE way to make Ackleyized brass, and seems it might be useful here? The cases are greased before chambering, so they'll "slide" into correct position as they expand. This is also supposed to help eliminate the thin spots ahead of the web that come from firing full bulleted charges in too long chambers.

Just a thought? The reason I asked is I thought about doing this in my #4.

Everytime I post on the greased cases, someone tells me how dangerous it is. This was Roy Weatherbys method of fireforming his hot rifle cases and it works fine. The cream of wheat/ground corn cob/sawdust/etc with a fast pistol powder and neck plug also works fine to fireform cases provided you get the right amount of powder in it.

NVcurmudgeon
12-24-2005, 06:03 PM
For more on .303 case life go to www.303british.com and see the two articles on the subject, one by Steve Redgewell, and one by some other guy.

Sailman
12-24-2005, 08:56 PM
Thought this might be of interest to you.

I started out with 80 rounds of new Remington brass to shoot in my Stevens
No 4 MK-1 .303 Enfield. I have never shot these cartridges in any other rifle. These cartridges have never shot jacketed bullets only lead bullets. I have never full length sized these cartridges only necked sized. Approximately 10 loads ago I started using a Lee collet die for neck sizing.

To keep record of how many times I shot these cartridges, I use the hash-mark
system ( four vertical lines with one cross mark indicates five times ). I keep record on a sticky label stuck on the cartridge box.

20 round cartridge box # 1-----------------shot 37 times
20 round cartridge box # 2-----------------shot 38 times
20 round cartridge box # 3-----------------shot 37 times
20 round cartridge box # 4-----------------shot 25 times

As of now I have not had one split neck on the brass cartridge

The following is a typical load shot in these brass cartridges:

Bullet-----------------314299
Size-------------------.314
Powder---------------2400
Amount---------------14 gr.

I keep record of my group sizes by measuring the horizontal spread and the vertical spread.

The following is typical of groups shot with this rifle / load:
10 [ 9 ( 2 1/4 H x 2 V ) 10 ( 2 1/4 H x 3 3/4 ) ]
This means that I shot a 10 shot group of which 9 shot 2 1/4 inch horizontal--2 inch vertical and the 10th shot took it out to 2 1/4 horizontal--3 3/4 vertical.


Sailman

Sailman
12-24-2005, 09:23 PM
I forgot to mention all my shooting is done at 100 yds.

Sailman

Blackwater
12-25-2005, 01:00 AM
Thanks, 2.1. I'm pretty set in my ways, but I CAN learn something new every now and then. It just takes a while to work up the courage to DO it! :lol:

Just seemed like this was a good way to avoid thinning the brass just ahead of the web, and I want these cases to last. Do have the Lee Deluxe die set with the neck sizer, and I'm hoping using that with such cases will not only stretch case life, but maybe help accuracy with the cast bullets, too.

I love those Enfields. Slicker'n owl snot. Not hard to see how those old Brits did such good work with them. Funky looking, and cocking on closing takes some getting used to, but .... it's coming along. Have a gunsmith/stocker buddy who is making up a really great feeling stock to use as a pattern for a pantograph, and I am REALLY looking forward to getting THAT on my gun. Will be sorta' like Patterson's rifle in "The Ghost and the Darkness." What man could NOT appreciate a neat gun like THAT? Mine's already cut down, so .... just seems to be the honorable thing to do for an old soldier, doncha' think? Should make up into a really fine, fast handling hunter, too. That safety and quick working bolt ought to make it a fine hawg gun for the river swamps, and I'd think a cast bullet ought to do anything a jacketed would in that scenario, too. Kinda' neat combination, I think.