How to go about linotype?

[Castnshoot]

I've been going to tire shops and getting wheel weights, but do want to scrounge some linotype as well. Where do you go for this, and, how do you go about it?

[catkiller45]

Linotype is sometime's darn hard to find....Unless you are planning on super fast MV'S it might not even be needed....Good luck and be safe...John

[GLL]

The days of "scrounging" linotype are pretty much gone ! :)

You may have to pay about a $1.00/pound now-a-days !

Jerry

[Bullshop]

You can quench harden WW to be as hard as linotpe.
BIC/BS

[Castnshoot]

Then quench harden it shall be!

[runfiverun]

if you really need lino you can get antimony and tin and mix in your lead.
lino should be 22 bhn quenched ww's with tin is about 17.
but should be used up or it will soften back to ww hardness.

[grumpy one]

The hardness attainable with quenched WWs depends largely on how much tin you add. Tin moderates hardenability. Straight WWs with no added tin (and that means with no stick-on weights melted in, because most of those have high tin) can get a bit harder than linotype. Even with 25% of tin-laden stick-ons added, in my current toughness experiments the straight WW achieved an average of 24 BHN, quenching in tapwater from 240* Celsius.

[e15cap]

I have Lino but it is $2.00lb.

[35remington]

A particular type of small printing shop is known as a bindery.

These binderies print small runs of books, often in fancy covers with embossed titles, gold page edges, and bookmark ribbons.

These books are rather expensive, and since small runs are made, the metal of choice to emboss the titles on the covers is linotype or a high tin/antimony near equivalent since the title letters are easily moulded.

Look in your yellow pages for a bindery. And see if they'll sell you some linotype. They receive the lino as pigs, and melt it into stamps for the titles. When done, they give the lead stamps back to the distributor.

It's pricey, but indispensible for small Loverin style 22, 24 and possibly 25 caliber bullets to fill out the small bands, which wheelweights cannot do. Even if pricey, the bullets are so light the cost per bullet is quite reasonable.

[Bullshop]

"It's pricey, but indispensible for small Loverin style 22, 24 and possibly 25 caliber bullets to fill out the small bands, which wheelweights cannot do."

Good thing I aint in an arguing mood cuz I could go round with ya on that point.
BIC/BS

[35remington]

Bullshop, I feel the same way, so we'll let it go.

Linotype has its uses, and the printing industry found it necessary for small type or they'd be using something like wheelweights. Finding it equally useful for filling out small mould features is not inappropriate, and I use it for such.

You may do what and how you wish with wheelweights. It's a free country. So you won't mind that I find lino useful, I am sure.

[randyrat]

I may have a line on 400-600 lbs of MONOTYPE and i may have to sell some of it. I can't tie that much money up. I have to inspect it first and come up with the cash. You know this time of the year cash dosen't flow like water. So keep your eyes open in "Swappin an Sellin" it will be aprox $1.50 range

[454PB]

I have a stash of monotype, and it's an especially great alloy because of it's high tin content. It can be diluted to linotype hardness if desired, or used with 75% WW alloy for a really great rifle boolit/magnum handgun boolit.

Believe it or not, a few years ago I sold 600 pounds of what I have for 30 cents a pound.

[Jon K]

Like GLL says about $1/lb...........just keep your eyes open.... here on the Swappin & Selling/ebay/GunBroker/Auction Arms, it is getting harder to find............used to be able to find free, but not anymore. :violin:

Jon

[Bullshop]

Well Sir Mr 35rem since you decided to go there and make me look silly I guess I got no choice now, BUMMER!
It seems I am forever pointing out to the less experianced boolit casters that its not a good policy to say never or always when your talking about casting or even loading ammo for that matter. You Sir have broken that rule, shame on you.
I have no problem with you having fun casting perfect little lino boolits but boy howdy brother when you say I cant do it with straight WW and I say I do well one of us has got to be wrong.
I know I could tell ya about all the wonderful things I can do with ww but I think you already made up your mind that well I just aint quite right in some way.
The fact of the matter is if ya know how you sure can cast perfect little boolits with ww and I will try to point out a case that may help prove my point.
Brother Felix, I am gona pick on ya just a bit here so please forgive me. Its about the thread about the group buy 22 mold. Brother Felix has been doing some testing of some different designs folks have sent him for comparison. He has reported that of all boolits tested two designs stood above all others. One of those designs was submited by yours truly. Take a wild guess about what alloy those were cast from.
Now you seem to know alot about little boolits so you know that they have to be perty darn good or they done shoot so well. If them little itty bitty 22's made the top cut dont you think that would prove for sure that ww can be made to cast quite well indeed?
I cant and wont deny that raising the tin content will make it a bit easier but for you to put it in absolute terms, well I think thats silly. Gotta remember that rule, never say never and never say always cuz if ya do sombody will sure nuf proove ya wrong.
Hope ya dont take this too hard, no offence ment. My goal here is to seek the truth and I have worked at it long and hard. When I started out new in my curv I read lots of old stuff that prooved not to be true and that held me back. I dont want to see anyone else held back by folks repeating things that just aint so
I am able to believe that perhaps you are unable to get good fill from straight ww when casting small boolits but for you to say that I or someone else cant do it is rather an insult and the reason our friends here have to wast thier time reading this long post of mine. Go ahead and fire back if you want but your gonna have a tough time tryin ta convince me that I didnt do what I did do.
Blessings on ya!
BIC/BS

[blackthorn]

So, Bullshop, ----It seems to me that his thread has the potential to accelerate into one compareable to the "cast velocity ceiling" threads of recent times!!! SO, to head that off --- are you going to tell us how (you know, the trick) you do what others say "cant be done"???

(Typed with tounge firmly stuck in cheek).

[rockrat]

Want to make yourselves sick. I talked to a guy that used to work for a newspaper. He said that when they went away from linotype, they buried 3 TONS of it in the landfill along with the melting pot that was over half full!!

[Bullshop]

I have been telling it for quite some time now, its no secret. The trick, if you will call it that is heat. That is heat in the mold not the alloy. No cooling of the sprue plate, no waiting for the sprue to harden, and keeping the cyclic rate as short as possible,and made possible using bullplate to prevent any smearing.
A typical 22 cal mold will cycle in about 10 to 12 seconds. I was once a double and even tripple mold caster letting one cool while casting the other, NO MORE. I make better more uniform boolits now using only one mold at a time and cast no less volume for the same time expended.
One problem I often see here is folks telling other folks to slow down or drop the temp when they begin to get frosting. For me its just the opposite when I begin to see frosting my mold is not yet hot enough. Its not a matter of regulating the pot temp but a matter of cadence to work fast enough to get complete frosting.
I only regulate the pot temp after the mold is hot enough to give full and complete frosting. At that point I regulate the pot temp so that the sprue will remain liquid for about three seconds give or take a second. At the very instant the sprue will not run off when the mold is tilted it gets cut. At this point the sprue is still very soft and can be crumbled in my gloved hand, but gets returned to the pot emediately. Little wasted energy that way.
I have a large west clock hanging at eye level that has a large sweeping second hand and a loud tik with each second movement. That clock is my metranome, setting the beat of my casting rytham.
Its all about consistant mold temp, and keeping the extream spread at a minimum.
When you tandem cast you are increasing the extream heat spread and thus pouring in a mold that now has a less than optimum temp.
This in a nut shell is why most people add tin, because the tin does make the alloy more fluid and will aid in fill out if the mold is not at its optimum temp for good fill without tin.
So yes the tin does make it easier but it is not needed if done right.
I sell thousands of boolits to ML shooters cast of pure lead, no tin at all and they are as clean and sharp as any cast with tin. To keep cost down and profit up I learned to make a quality product with a less expensive material, WW's as a base metal for most of our offerings. If anyone thinks that my product cast in straight ww is inferior to your product cast in whatever alloy you deem neccessarry I am amply willing to offer up some of my product to a third party for test comparrison.
Sure sounds like I am tooting my own horn I know but well I was asked in more than one thread to elaberate so thats what I am trying to do. My way is just that, my way and I aint gonna say its the right way and everybody else it wrong. No Sir aint a gonna do that but then done tell me either that something that I am making a living at cant be done either, in just might get my dander up enough to bore ya to tears.
Blessings all and happy thanks giving onto our Lord!
BIC/BS

[35remington]

As you like to say, Bullshop, "Good on Ya!"

"Go ahead and fire back if you want but your gonna have a tough time tryin ta convince me that I didnt do what I did do"

Bully, bully for you.

I'd suggest it's what I do for myself that matters, and the rest of the majority of the populace that uses linotype for this reason. If I prefer linotype for such use, as do many others for small bullets, and find that I don't have to run the mould super hot to do so, then that's what I'm doing.

Running a double cavity .22 mould to hot and frosty bullets on a cool day is difficult for me, as I cast outside. I can't cast fast enough with my setup to get frosty. I've tried.

Fillout, for me, is such that the tiny little lines in the Lyman .22 moulds that result from the rather rough cherries are easily visible when linotype is used. All edges sharp and square. Can't do any better with your super techniques, I surely warrant. I cast at an easier pace as I find the speed at which the little .22 cavities fill requires a careful fill with my bottom pour to keep the sprue from running off the top of the mould and making a mess. My pot spout is set for a delivery rate for somewhat larger bullets, and holding a gloved hand to a tiny delivery handle doesn't allow the finesse needed to manage the cavity fill like I want unless I avoid ham handedness. A little more feel is required, and with gloved hands that means working carefully for an efficient run.

Bull, yer can of whoopass goes flat when it's in my vicinity. Didn't make you look silly - you made the mistake of claiming your techniques are universally applicable. They ain't fer me.

If I say that wheelweights don't produce good fillout when I make .22 bullets, that's exactly what I mean.

Doesn't make linotype any less useful, and it rather seems that you're on a crusade to declare lino unnecessary for everything.

You do what you do.

I'll do what I do. The question was about how to obtain linotype, obviously from a guy who values it.

Let's now get back to topic.

[grumpy one]

Just to complicate the WW versus linotype issue, bear in mind that linotype not only has 4% tin, which gives it excellent fluidity, but also 12% antimony, which gives it as-cast hardness and wear resistance. Finally, linotype is a eutectic which means it solidifies in a single phase rather than progressively. So far as castability is concerned, the antimony does nothing helpful (unless you especially want the single phase solidification, which would be a bit weird since it makes sprue cutting a pain in the butt).

Adding tin to WW up to the point where it equals the antimony content does some nice things for castability, making the casting process quite a bit easier for clumsy fellows whose minds tend to wander - people just like me. So, if your WW contain say 0.25% tin and 2% antimony, the alloy is moderately difficult to cast compared with a higher tin alloy. If your WW alloy contains say 25% stick-on weights, it will be somewhere closer to 1% tin, and is actually a very nice alloy to cast - bright shiny bullets with excellent feature definition and toughness, together with high ductility. So, if you have Dan's skill and experience you can work around the lack of tin in straight clip-on WW. If you are pretty slack and ham-fisted like me you overcome the skill deficiency by adding 25% stick-on weights and can cast good bullets quite easily. If you have some special reason for wanting your bullets to be 22 BHN as-cast and quite brittle, you can get about as good a level of castability as WW-plus-25%-stick-ons. Personally I'd rather have tough, ductile bullets, and I have to do something with the stick-ons anyway, so I put them in the rifle bullet alloy. However I separate the dead soft stick-ons that have little or no tin, and they provide me with a source of almost pure lead.

My point in posting this meandering missive is that each of us is obviously free to use whatever works for his or her particular mission. You don't need linotype to cast well-defined bullets, but some people want hard-cast bullets without having to heat treat them.

[Bullshop]

OK back on topic, if I need lino I make it. Seems too hard to find already done now. Buy the stuff mix it up and away you go. Actually I dont make lino but an inrichment metal to add to WW when needed. Yup I do sweeten them when running a custom order for specific BHN.
Comon fella I wasnt tryin to push myself on everyone I was just defending myself when I read what you wrote about ww not giving good fill or whatever it was you said that struck a cord with me.
All I was ever really tryin ta do was share what I found out so others didnt have to spend the $ to sweeten the alloy if its not needed. I see so many newbys just keep adding more tin to get results because thats what they have read is the way to go. I have seen some go 10% or more to get good fill when what is really lacking is tecnique.
If they are not getting decent results with 2% better look for the problem somewhere else. I dont think I was pushing anything on anyone when I was being asked how to.
I didnt mean to rock your boat but it seems I have. I like to go about this with an open mind and that the only way I can continue to learn. Sorry if I gave an "I'm king of the hill" impression thats not what I was up to. What I was up to is usually the same here that if I see something said that I believe not to be true I will always present my side of the issue and off we go. I may even be convinced to try something new. The thing is there aint much new for me to try.
One more little thingy about them little boolits that I doubt at this point you are going to pay much attention to cuz I got an idea yer getin kinda angry with me. Anyways for what its worth I never have gotten as good results with straight lino as I have with a slightly watered down alloy. My prefered alloy for 22's is 6pt ww to 1 pt monotype. That yealds a bhn of 15 air cooled which is the way I use it. WW will cast and shoot just as good but will have a lower velocity limit. If the velocity will be within the strength limits of ww then I can get by with the cheaper alloy.
Sure not wanting to make any enemies here but just having fun sharing what I do. No hard feelings here. I realise that much of what I say and do on this subject put me out of the main stream but ya know I left that stream long ago in about everything I do.
What I focus on more than who is what. What can I do to get the job at hand done in quality fashion and with great emphasis on as cheap as possible.
Hope we can end up bein friends after this.
BIC/BS

[35remington]

Dan, I surely ain't mad. I just can't do what everyone does, especially those that are able to reproduce ideal conditions to the Nth degree. I don't gainsay what you're saying. I just can't duplicate those conditions as the ladies don't care for lead pots indoors, and I have to maintain the domestic tranquility.

I suspect there are many, many others like me, if not the majority. In these cases the lino gives much fewer rejects than the all wheelweight lead pot in itty bitty bullets with small features to fill out.

Lemme give an example. Not all that recently I received my copy of a sorta kinda 257312 except with a different sized nose flat and double crimp groove. Now that I think of it it really isn't all that much like a 257312 except that was what they insisted on calling it in a Lee six cavity on the group buy.

The radiating surface of that mould is huge. Total weight of lead in the mould when full is 480 grains - not much to keep a big aluminum mould hot. I have to cast a long sprue which is impossible to solidify uniformly from end to end or maintain in a homogenous condition from end to end if not fully solidified. If the sprue is cast separately for each cavity (which I don't do) I'd have to chase down six sprues as not all would return to the pot or land in my sprue can. Either way, sprue temperature would vary.

Running this mould to hot and frosty is a near impossibility, as I started out with a hot mould on top of the kitchen burner and dashed outside to cast as soon as possible. Distance to run about 30 feet. Despite my best pace, the mould cooled and I was back to an average, non frosty temp very shortly. With wheelweights in a 20 pound pot and a decent length of 95 percent tin solder wire added nearly every bullet came out with flawed double crimp grooves, as they are quite small.

I hate wasting time casting bullets as time is the shortest commodity I have. I also hate using straight linotype in even 25 caliber bullets as I consider it wasteful. I'd rather get by with less. So, through experimenting with mixtures I found, with the way I cast, that a 1/3 lino 2/3 wheelweight mix gave me good results. The RCBS 25 Cowboy flatnose, since it has big bands, can cast just fine with straight wheelweights. So it ain't just my technique, it's also the fineness of the bullet features that influence the alloy I need.

I consider linotype a near precious metal and extravagant usage wasteful. I try every technique possible to me to avoid its use before I throw in the towel and say, hell, I gotta use more of it. But I do like it in some bullet types, like the 225438 and 225415 and their bitty grooves and bands.

A little leeway regarding error in casting technique (variances in time as the mould is cycled) is helpful. It's not that it's impossible to do it the same way every time but it is sometimes difficult. Variances in head pressure as the pot drops also influences fill time and as the bottom of the pot approaches I crack the spout wider and can be more ham handed. If I kept the pot at a constant head pressure it slows my cycle time constantly adding metal and frosty bullets are even more elusive. I just prefer the bigger window where some variance still gives good results. I am hyper picky regarding my 22 bullets and if a closer to straight lino mix gives me better results that's what I'm going to use.

I suspect that with even other more experienced casters these small caliber bullets out of lino have fewer rejects under average conditions than those cast with straight wheelweights. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck myself, but sometime I gotta cast when I've got time and outdoor conditions are not ideal. For .22 caliber bullets I'd rather do it on a hot day no matter what kind of lead is in the pot. The previously mentioned 25 Lee six cavity was used on a hot 90 degree day and I still had problems with mostly wheelweights and the small amount of tin. The mould material and surface area work against me in obtaining those ideal always hot frosty bullets that improve fillout.

So take it as me not saying YOU can't. I have no doubt you can. It's just that I couldn't duplicate your conditions, no way, no how. Especially with some of the moulds I've got. I suspect I am not alone in feeling that way.

I don't lose too much sleep over it. It's just the way it is, and I get by. Thus my preference.

[Seafarer12]

You can still find it but you just about have to stumble on it. I had a scrap lead ad on craigs list and had an old guy call me up saying he had lino and ww. I bout 65 pounds of ww and 85 pounds of lino and paid .50 a pound for all of it. What was even a better deal was the brand new Hoch mold I got for 25 dollars. Not bad for a 100 dollar bill.

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my experience. You can cast any bullet out of any alloy if your patient enough. Linotype mixed with ww does help to make casting small bullets easier. If you cast it hot it at least stays fluid long enough to fill a mold even when you are having problems keeping a mold at temp. Big molds to me are just the oposite. When i use say a 50 cal two cavity steel mold i can actually cast better with alloys closer to pure then with alloys containing lots of tin. What happens is the mold gets hot between the chambers and leaves voids in the bullets. Problem is most of my big bullets are for big guns that i want to shoot big game with so i like them about 18bhn. I detest water dropping and heat treated bullets so i do it with a mix of 5050 ww/lyno. I get alot of rejects especially with some molds and its the only case where i actually weight bullets because of the problem. Aluminum molds are easier with big bullets. You can run them very hot and they tend to straighten out but not a steal mold. the hotter you get the worse the problem. Has anyone else ever found a majic mold? One that cast good all the time with about any alloy. Ive got a few. I think what it is is that the manufacture lucked into a bullet size that matched the mass of his blocks. Lately ive accumlated alot of the 6 cavity lees in the group buys. Ever notice how much easier casting bullets under 44 cal in them is compared to casting the big bullets. The 475 molds are a royal pain. They have to be run with care and it about eliminates the ability to run two or three molds at a time. Where am i going with all of this? I think your both right and wrong. I dont think the alloy is causing any problems with your casting. Its more the molds. You might find one mold that casts great with ww and does crappy with lyno and the next manufactures mold might be just the oposite. People tend to buy cheap molds so alot of people use aluminum molds. When they cant cast good bullets they blame the alloy. The mold is probably the most important part of the equation. Ive bought a few ballistiicast molds lately that are customs. I bought them mostly in big calibers but the same would apply for small. First thing i look at is mold mass for heating and cooling. Two cavity and 4 cavity molds heat up to fast so what ive been doing is haveing them cut 3 cavitys in a 4 cavity block. A guy could do the same with a 22. Have them cut three cavitys in a two cavity block. Id bet that would eliminate half the problem right there. Just look at a lyman rcbs or any other mold. The blocks are the same wether there 22s or 45s how can it be ideal for that big of a swing.

[runfiverun]

actually if you cut the mold in half lengthwise it would help considerably.
all the aluminum molds i have are 4 cavity and they live on top of the pot i bottom pour yes but they go right back on top after words till the sprue cools.

[Bullshop]

Lloyd
Yup I agree with most of what you say but man you gotta put some spaces in there. That was really hard to read. Now I got a headach.
BIC/BS

[TexRebel]

Did I do something wrong, these were cast from clip on WW :roll:
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Texrebel_album/reloading/IMG_0441.jpg

and here is the mold that cast them.
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Texrebel_album/IMG_0429.jpg

P.S. google linotype, it is for sale on line, here is one source I have used before;
http://www.rotometals.com/Bullet-Casting-Alloys_c_93.html?OVRAW=linotype&OVKEY=linotype&OVMTC=standard&OVADID=44616973011&OVKWID=300145301011
:castmine:

[mainiac]

Did I do something wrong, these were cast from clip on WW :roll:
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Texrebel_album/reloading/IMG_0441.jpg

and here is the mold that cast them.
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Texrebel_album/IMG_0429.jpg

P.S. google linotype, it is for sale on line, here is one source I have used before;
http://www.rotometals.com/Bullet-Casting-Alloys_c_93.html?OVRAW=linotype&OVKEY=linotype&OVMTC=standard&OVADID=44616973011&OVKWID=300145301011
:castmine:

Holy Cow! I thought my ol tape rules were wore out!