Paper patching the .43 Mauser

[Gunfreak25]

My first post here. :D

Originally the M1871/84 mauser was designed to be shot with paper patched boolits. Today I know the majority of reloaders who shoot their M71's don't bother with paper patching, and just use an un patched boolit. When I get some boolits casted for my Mauser, I was going to use the Lyman .446 flat nose mould currently selling at Midway. Can I paper patch the boolits with this mould? Or do I have to have a special mould that's designed for paper patching?

This brings me to me next question, how do I paper patch a boolit? :lol:
Is there pre made paper that I can buy? I am knowlegable of reloading, but PP is a new world for me. What's the easiest way to get started PP boolits? -Tom

[docone31]

Tom, sit back, and enjoy the ride!
I use the Lee C312/185R mold for my .303 British Enfield. It is a lube groove casting.
The nose mikes at .304, the lube lands mike at .3135.
I size my casting, and I use water dropped wheel weight, to .308. The lube grooves pretty much go away except for some bumps.
I took my original casting, cut stips of notebook paper across the lines, into 1" strips.
I rolled my original casting two turns on the 1" strip. I then cut it. Removing that unwetted strip, I cut 45* angles on each side. I rolled the original casting in the cut strip. I then trimmed the paper to match the roll.
I coated my original castings with dish soap, then sized them down to .308. I then rinsed the soap off my castings. I use the Lee Push Thru System.
I use a cigarette roller to roll my patches. Works real well for me.
I cut a template so I could cut the number of patches I needed. In this case, 50.
I took a cut patch, dipped it in pure water, set it in the machine. Roll to the left for left hand rifleing, right for right hand rifleing.
The cigarette roller takes the soaking patches, rolls them on the sized casting, and they come out of the machine damp and rolled real well. I then twist the tails in the direction of the wrap.
The next day or so, I snip the tails leaving just a nub, wipe on JPW, and use a Push Thru Sizer for .314. I had to have my collet dies modified for this. The factory dies were too small to work for patched loads.
You need to slug your barrel.
I did not do this at first, and learnd a lot about casting and shooting those loads. I could have saved embarassement at the range, and many loads if I had slugged the barrel.
You need to know bore diameter, and groove depth.
Sized for .312, when the specs told me .311, I got 20ft of berm at 100yds. Sizing at .3135 got me 2" groups, sizing to .314 got me 1" groups. I sized the barrel finally and came to .314.
I used my rifle as an example as I have working knowlege with that patched load.
I use the Lee starting load for jacketed bullets in the weight of the patched boolitt.
I had 20 sized to .312. Those I wiped fine lapping compound lightly on them. They shot great, and smoothed some chatter marks in the barrel. I got a mirror inside now.
Paper really polishes the bore. It certainly cleaned everything out.
You will have to slug your bore to find nose diameter/bore diameter, and groove diameter.
That is very important and simple to do.
I also asked a lot of questions on this forum. I am glad I did. I did everything absolutely wrong first time out and it gave a lot of experienced people a chance to help.
They did.
Look in the paper patch threads here for sizing .30cal, .303 British, .30cal loads. I did a lot of threads here. Folks put on pictures which really helped, and submitted how to-s that worked. Someone did your caliber here also if I remember correctly.
I hope I was able to at least show the concept I used.
The info is here.
Welcome, and great luck developing your load.
I will look forward to more posts on this.
Once you get it dialed in, watch how it performs!

[StrawHat]

gunfreak25,

Welcome to the forum.

Somewhere I have a copy of the article Ross Seyfried wrote on working up loads for the Mauser 71/84.

If I get the chance I will find it over the weekend and copy it for you and others who are interested.

[idahoron]

I have been wanting to try that bullet paper patched in my 45 cal Muzzleloader. Ron

[Buckshot]

................Welcome to the board Gunfreak25. There have been several articles and a couple books written on the subject. It really isn't tough to figure out, nor is it hard to do. It DOES require a bit of manual dexterity, but that comes with just doing it.

First of all, which .43 Mauser do you have? The M71 Single shot had a nominal groove of .451" and a land of .433". On the other hand, the M71/84 repeater has a nominal groove of .446" and shares the same land diameter of .433". Regardless which one you own, your first chore is to slug the barrel, the throat area, AND the chamber's neck area. With these old rifles they are all important.

What propellant you're planning on using 'could' play on what you want your patched boolit to end up at, OD wise. For me it doesn't matter as I patch to the groove (if the throat will allow it). Some of these old rifles may have a throat that allows you to patch to the groove, but then it's nice to know before patching up and loading a bunch of ammo that you can chamber it :-)

If you come up with those three dimensions and will post them here, we'd be a lot more help.

You want a paper of high enough quality to allow it to be wetted, then streatched as it's rolled on the boolit. The tighter it's rolled on (streatched) the tighter it will be when dry. THis stretching while rolling and then the drying will give you a patch that's 'on there' like a coat of paint. The subsequent shrinkage while drying will also net out a bit under the parent paper's normal dry thickness.

For example a very common paper for patching is a 9 lb type. It may be called Airmail, or onionskin, and may (usually) admit to some cotton content. Pulling a sheet out and mic'ing it will normally give you a thickness of .002". Wetted, and stretched around a boolit 2 times will give you an added .007 when it's dry. So you'll lose a thousandth. Thicker paper will lose a bit more when dry.

You can generate almost the exact OD you want by various methods. Paper thickness to begin with is one. Sizing the 'To be patched' boolit' beforehand, or a mild sizing after patching are the other 2 ways. Let's get some dimensions and see what you have to work with.

................Buckshot

[Gunfreak25]

Thanks for the info! The rifle doesn't have a bolt right now so it's unshootable, I restored this rifle from bassicaly a rusted out beat up hunk of crap. However the bore looks unfired and is flawless besides a small patch of rust at the muzzle which I succesfully cleaned out.

It is the 71/84 model, not the M71 single shot.
Once I get a bolt for it that's when I was planning on starting up some loads.
I'm going to go with unpatched boolits at first, then if it shoots well and all is good i'll move to PP for some added fun.

As far as everything else goes, even my loads, i've got that figured out.
What was still hazy to me was the process of paper patching, which thanks to the above information I have a better understanding of how to go about it. :D

I've talked to several guys who load and shoot for their M71/84's, which they do shoot on a regular basis. From talking with them I was able to come up with a good, simple starting load to get the old girl shooting again. The load is going to be a .446 flat nose 380 (or so) grain bullet, behind it will be 70 grains of FFg with a little corn meal or filler ontop if there's room to help compress the load a bit. This is the load that works well for them and they use alot. I thought the corn meal thing was funny but apparently it works well for them. :D

My rifle was made in late 1888, the year the Gew.88 Commision rifle came out. So my, and many 71/84's were basically obsolete weeks after they were made. My rifle was apparently put into storage for the rest of it's life before being sold to ecuador and imported into the USA as a "120 year old relic". So I highly doubt my rifle was fired at all. The rifling looks virtually untouched as i can still see the smooth machine marks. It was very surprising to see it look so darn perfect after all these years.
I'll take some measurements of the throat, and slug the bore later. I don't plan to be actually making up some loads until I get a bolt later.

So when I get the measure ments i'll get back with you all, I do have a feeling the throat will be roomy enough to allow the use of paper patched ammunition.

Thanks for the help guys, good info on the PP methods. :D

Now I do have another question on lead. My lead stash consists of mostly old lead 5 inch wide pipes, wheel weights and picked up pistol bullets from shooting burms.
I'm guessing the bullets would be easiest to melt down as far as lead quality goes as they are already bullets and have the proper hardness, where as wheel weights will need tin and/or antimony added right? I know there are numerous recipes for lead boolits, i'm just looking for something simple and "universal" that I can use in many of my rifles.

[Buckshot]

...............Your lead pipe will be close to pure. If there are any joints, cut them out and set aside to melt seperately as they're high in tin. Your WW are a very common 'base' alloy to use as is in most light to moderate rifle/pistol applications (unless they're the stick ons which are almost pure soft lead. The boolits you picked up on the range, if commercial will undoubtly be hard. If cast at home by someone they'll probably be fine to toss in with the WW. The simple thumbnail test will tell which is what.

.................Buckshot

[StrawHat]

It took me a while but I was able to find not only my copy of the Seyfried article but a web version as well.

Here is the web version,

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=750&magid=56

If it doesn't load or show up, let me know and I'll get a copy of mine online somehow.

[Gunfreak25]

Hey thanks for the info! Man you guys make me look dumm. :mrgreen:

Here's my lead pipes which were a mystery to me until now.
What would be a good recipe to cook up with some of this pipe for my .43 Mauser boolits?

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa270/Gunfreak25/Mauser%20Project/100_3163.jpg

[Gunfreak25]

Here is the rifle by the way. Originally started as a $70 hunk of junk that I didn't think I could restore. I lucked into alot of parts for it though by sending atleast a few dozen emails to gun corporations all over the globe, found my magazine tube, front band, stacking rod, rear sight which I re silver soldered back on, mag cutoff switch, switch spring, action screws, and now I need a bolt. Which I do have reserved from someone for $105. In total the whole shebang ran me out $328 with shipping. Not bad for such a great rifle. The numbers on it match except for the replacement parts which are missmatched. So it's a 50% original I suppose. :D

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa270/Gunfreak25/Mauser%20Project/100_3212.jpg

The nosejob I did on it

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa270/Gunfreak25/Mauser%20Project/100_3213.jpg

The bore which is nearly perfect in every way.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa270/Gunfreak25/Mauser%20Project/100_3217.jpg

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=Gunfreak25;438080]Hey thanks for the info! Man you guys make me look dumm. :mrgreen:

Here's my lead pipes which were a mystery to me until now.
What would be a good recipe to cook up with some of this pipe for my .43 Mauser boolits?

.............If you're going to paper patch the soft lead with a bit of tin (2% or so) will work like gang busters. If you're talking a GG lubricated slug then use the WW, or maybe 4 WW and 1 soft lead.

................Buckshot

[jonk]

Slug your bore. If it measures .446 or less then the Lyman mold will be fine without paper patching. Probably even if it measures .447 as the mold should drop a tad oversized, or could be encouraged to. The nominal size is .446 after all. 10.95mm.

For the 71 single shot, nominal size is a bit bigger. 11.15 mm. I find a .452 bullet works better, and that my .459 trapdoor bullets size down just fine...

The question however is what your throat and chamber neck will take. These have tight throats and I'm told- though such isn't an issue for me- that some will only accept an undersized bullet, making paper patching necessary.

[Gunfreak25]

I've been doing some more goofing off here on the forum and have learned the paper patching really is a neat little trick to know! This method is what, over 150 years old yet i'm just hearing about it until now! :lol:

Based on how much lead I showed you guys I have in the above picture, how many bullets do you think I could get out of all of it? I plan to use this lead to make .446, .329 for my Steyr, .323 for my Mausers, and maybe .308 later for my other rifles. My guess would be a couple thousand bullets or more?

[montana_charlie]

I must say that's a nice job on the fore end...
CM

[Gunfreak25]

This is what it looked like before the nosejob. :lol:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa270/Gunfreak25/Mauser%20Project/100_3146.jpg


This is called wood splicing, it's really fun to do.

[Buckshot]

I've been doing some more goofing off here on the forum and have learned the paper patching really is a neat little trick to know! This method is what, over 150 years old yet i'm just hearing about it until now! :lol:

Based on how much lead I showed you guys I have in the above picture, how many bullets do you think I could get out of all of it? I plan to use this lead to make .446, .329 for my Steyr, .323 for my Mausers, and maybe .308 later for my other rifles. My guess would be a couple thousand bullets or more?

................Lead is ~ 7000 grains to the pound (alloy depending). Say you had a TD Springfield in 45-70 and were going to do some LR shooting, you'd get 14 slugs weighing 500grs if you could access that final tiny little bit in the pot :-)

But to answer the important part: ".............how many bullets do you think I could get out of all of it?" The answer is, NOT ENOUGH!

...............Buckshot

[arclight]

I'd be willing to cast you a few test slugs cast with the Lyman 446 mold and my homemade paper-patch 350gr mold. PM me and I can get it out to ya.

I've been getting 3-4.5" groups at 100 yards with the various combinations. I'm currently loading IMR3031 with no buffer and FFG, filled to the max with a grease cookie and a wad cut out from milk carton. I made a custom punch for the wads.

My next step might be to try some 4895. Buckshot, are you using a filler with that?

Arclight

[Gunfreak25]

Thanks Arclight, sending you a PM! :)

Well I need to get off my butt and slug that barrel and throat to see what it mikes out at.
Buckshot, tell me if i'm correct.

If my throat slugs to a measurement that will only allow the use of a slightly undersized yet paperpatched boolit, my first step after casting the bullet is to size it to the correct diameter that will allow it to chamber in the rifle, then PP it with the correct paper thickness, lube it, then flare my brass mouths, and seat? Or do I have to run the newly PP bullet through a sizer after i've patched it? The whole process of sizing this or that is still a tad hazy to me. I'd like to stick with LEE equipment but I do like RCBS for their dies and other things better.
-Tom

Oh, hopefully my throat will mike out to a dimention that will allow me to use a full .446 bullet without the need of a PP. That way I can choose to use an unpatched boolit, or size down and use PP bullets for fun. :D

[leftiye]

I prefer to size the finished boolit after applying some Lee Mule Snot (I finally found out what LLA is good for). Then bell the case mouths, and seat the boolits.

If you do have a really tight chamber neck area, you may HAVE to use Black powder. With smokeless, the boolit really needs to be at least groove diameter, or flame cutting will ruin accuracy. It could happen that you can't chamber a groove diameter boolit if your chamber neck is too tight. If you had this problem, and still wanted to use smokeless, the only solution that I can see would be to open up the chamber neck with a necking reamer (though I'd try it with the proper sized chucking reamer). If you think you want to do this, you should consider what effect it will have on the originality and value of your gun.

[Gunfreak25]

Thanks for the info leftiye. It's not so much value i'm concerned about with this rifle as I did piece it together from different parts to get a completed rifle. But i'd never do anything permanant like that. Actually I planned on using BP anyway. I save the modern smokeless stuff for my .308's. :D

I planned to use 70 grains of FFg, this replicates the original loading. I'm hoping 70 grains will be enough to compress the load during bullet seating. I hear people use either cornmeal, or those cardwads to compress their loads. Whats the advantage between the two? I imagine the cardwad not only helps compress a load but protects the fragile base of a PP boolit?