Fouling shot or flyer or ?

[RU shooter]

I was out last sunday with my new match rifle to try to find a decent load for it and first time I actually shot cast with a scoped rifle so I guess I never noticed this shooting with open sights But 6 of of my 8 different loads I tried I experience a strange thing, On my first shot with each different load the first shot was always approx.1-2 inches out and then it would put the remaining 8 or 9 into nice round groups that averaged 1.375-1.5 I would expect this when I changed to a boolit that was lubed differently and did occur when I went from LLA to regular lube on one ocassion( took 3 shots with it) But these were the same lube ,same boolit just a different powder. I was shooting a modified #4 Enfield with a Douglas heavy barrel in true 308 dia. bore(303/30) All of the loads were on the mild side in the 1600-1700 range to my best guess? All were the Lee 185 gr sized .311

17.5 gr.4759
27 gr of pulled CZ 54R powder (Euro 4895 )
25.0 gr. AA2015BR
19.0 gr 5744
14 gr unique
13 gr RD

Why the first shot out and the rest group good ? would it possible its the barrel temp. changing in between loads?BTW again thanks to everyone who gave me advice since I started here,This is the first time I have ever shot cast boolits with better accuracy than I could with those ugly copper things!:drinks:

Tim

[docone31]

Could it be, you clean the barrel too well between sets?
It being new, it still could be rough.
I wonder how that .303-30 might do with paper.
I am lookin to making my Smelly to .303 EPPS.
She likes paper.

[405]

What you're seeing is not out of the ordinary.... at least it's what I see most of the time. But, once in a while the first bullet POI will be the same as the last in certain guns/loads throughout the shot string (normal number of shots like 10-20 between cleanings). Why the exception? I don't have a clue.

A flyer I think is a POI that is out of the ordinary- most times just a mystery or a guess as to cause. They usually show up at odd times in the shot string- anywhere from first shot to last shot. Those dang flyers happen to most everyone once in a while. I guess the idea is to not be a frequent flyer :mrgreen:

BPCR is a different critter yet. With BP I've noticed, as with regular grease groove cast and smokeless and with some j-bullet shooting, it takes 1-3 shots for the group to settle and reach some type of equilibrium. With BP tho, even after the foulers, that accuracy equilibrium is a sliding one toward inaccuracy. I've always shot the tightest groups BPCR by cleaning after each shot... and the same for muzzleloaders with BP.

The shooters who really get into analyzing this fouling, lube, bullet type, ammo brand, shot string accuracy thing are the 22 rimfire shooters and high power benchrest shooters. They shoot for such small groups with such finicky ammo and guns that they really study the phenomenon.

[runfiverun]

think cold lube,
if it happens in the middle of a shot string[consistently] it is usually a lube purge flyer.
with one mold i have it has exposed lube grooves .with one load i have to clean all exposed grooves out.
with another [faster] load, different powder, it shoots better if the grooves are filled.
just the fun we deal with.

[RU shooter]

Could it be, you clean the barrel too well between sets?
It being new, it still could be rough.
. I dont think thats it as I didnt clean the barrel at all now for over 100 rds. just an oily patch when I put it away for the day,The accuracy was steady to slighty improving as the day went on. The barrel appears fairly smooth I dont know how many rds are through it as I bought it used off of Gunbroker last month.

run 5 run Cold lube shot?Do you mean that the barrel was cold/cooling before the next string? or that the bullets and the lube itself was physically cold? I guess thats possible it was 38 degree's that day. But that big barrel didnt really have much time to cool off between strings, I would shoot 10 log the shots in my book load the next 10 in the magazine and shoot the next maybe 3-4 minutes between 10 rd strings. I only walked to change targets once . I plan on loading up 58 of the most accurate load 27.0 grs of CZ(Euro4895)and shoot at the same speed and amount of time in between relays to simulate a match and see if this first out of group thing happens again with the same load,

Thanks,Tim

[runfiverun]

yep cold
in my 308 i shoot a hard lube the first 2 shots are high left then the group settles down, if i shoot 10 shots all is fine, if i shoot 10 more and the bbl gets really warm the group shifts down and left bout 1/2 both ways it also gets tighter.
now this same boolit and lube out of my k-31 and 30-40 krag might do the same thing but i can't shoot the open sights well enough at 100 to really tell.
the other thing that could affect i is the powder residue left in the bbl.
just things rifles do, i have seen jacketed do goofy things too like take a few shots to put a bit of the different jacketed material in the bbl for the groups to settle down.

[405]

Any reason for not cleaning? 100 +/- rounds seems like a lot of shooting without cleaning. I don't know how to test loads or compare between loads without cleaning more often or between load types. :confused:

[RU shooter]

Any reason for not cleaning? 100 +/- rounds seems like a lot of shooting without cleaning. I don't know how to test loads or compare between loads without cleaning more often or between load types. :confused:No real reason Probably just due to my inexperience shooting boolits, My way of looking at it is my accuracy hasnt dropped off,the bore isnt leaded at all and I wanted to see what it will shoot like after a bunch of rounds through it like in a real match If my accuracy falls off after 30 rds. my slow prone scores will be horrid. Am I incorrect in my thought process? Would it be better If I cleaned the barrel after every new load or 20 rds 30 rds.or when ?

Thanks Tim

[runfiverun]

i try and not clean my cast bbls.
what i usually find if i have a good fit is that i am mostly getting powder fouling.
and depending on my type of lube it only takes a patch to push most everything out.
but i see no reason why you can't shoot several hundred rounds as long as accuracy isn't being affected,

you can tell if you have a lot of powder fouling by pushing a brush down the bbl if it looks fuzzy after the brush you could stand a patch, a wet one preferably.
a wet one after each session will help keep your bbl prepped for the next session.
if your bbl is wet after each group or session it can easily cause your first shot or two to be flyers [lube purge]

[405]

Just wondering about it. I see the reason for wanting to shoot long shot strings for competiton. But, I also noticed several different powders in the original post suggesting you were searching for a best load. Without cleaning, it would be difficult to tell which was working best. Without cleaning how do you know there is no leading from a certain load or even cumulative leading? Without cleaning how can you objectively judge any one of the loads being better or worse or if there is some leading or excessive fouling.... or which load is doing it? By separating the loads by cleaning between each test seems it would be easier to see which one showed best promise.

Then, when one is found that seems to be most accurate and leads or fouls less than the others, shoot the long string with that load to see if it holds up. Don't know with any certainty the best way. Just curious since I do a lot of tedious testing in various cals, guns, bullets, powders, etc.

Short story- I worked with a fellow 40 years ago that was almost a 100% cast bullet shooter- mostly in 30 cal. rifle. Not knowing much about cartridge cast bullets, except for the cast bullets I was shooting in muzzleloaders at the time and some handgun cast loads, I asked a lot of questions.... one of which was how often he cleaned his bore. He said with a wry smile, "Oh about once a year whether it needs it or not". Funny thing tho is I never saw him at the range nor did I ever see any of his targets nor did I ever hear him say how accurate his cast loads were. Left more questions than answers. Either he had a secret recipe of some kind or didn't want to expose the accuracy he was getting or not getting..... or just liked having a different way :)

[oneokie]

If your lube will stand higher velocity, bump up your powder charge 1/2 to 1 grain at a time and try some 3 shot groups to see if the flier gets worse or comes back into the group.