When did/will the new covenant begin?

[dtknowles]

The author of Hebrews (assumed to be Paul), was in chapter 8 quoting much of what was written by the prophets in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 37. While there are many prophetic aspects to these verses about the rejoining of Ephraim and Judah back together as the one set-apart nation, these verses are quick to make the point within context of reading the complete chapters.
“And they shall by no means teach each one his neighbour, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ because they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
~ (Hebrews 8:11)
“And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbour, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares יהוה. “For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.” ~ (Jeremiah 31:34)
So, according to Jeremiah and Paul, one of the prerequisites to the establishment of the New Covenant is that we will no longer preach the gospel to the nations. Why? – Because “they shall all know me”. This doesn’t happen until after Yeshua’s (Jesus) second coming and the elect are gathered together in the New Jerusalem for the millennial reign.
From this prerequisite alone we can conclude the New Covenant isn’t established yet. Therefore, the Law of Moses and the Mosaic Covenant have not “vanished away”.

While I think this is contradicted by other Gospels it does raise the issue. If you don't know Jesus then the Mosaic Covenant applies. If you don't know the Mosaic Covenant and you don't believe in Jesus, say you are a Hindu. Do either Covenants apply to you?

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

The author of Hebrews (assumed to be Paul), was in chapter 8 quoting much of what was written by the prophets in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 37. While there are many prophetic aspects to these verses about the rejoining of Ephraim and Judah back together as the one set-apart nation, these verses are quick to make the point within context of reading the complete chapters.
“And they shall by no means teach each one his neighbour, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ because they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
~ (Hebrews 8:11)
“And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbour, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares יהוה. “For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.” ~ (Jeremiah 31:34)
So, according to Jeremiah and Paul, one of the prerequisites to the establishment of the New Covenant is that we will no longer preach the gospel to the nations. Why? – Because “they shall all know me”. This doesn’t happen until after Yeshua’s (Jesus) second coming and the elect are gathered together in the New Jerusalem for the millennial reign.
From this prerequisite alone we can conclude the New Covenant isn’t established yet. Therefore, the Law of Moses and the Mosaic Covenant have not “vanished away”.

While I think this is contradicted by other Gospels it does raise the issue. If you don't know Jesus then the Mosaic Covenant applies. If you don't know the Mosaic Covenant and you don't believe in Jesus, say you are a Hindu. Do either Covenants apply to you?

Tim

"To the Hebrews" is a fantastic book and one of my favorites. One of the reasons for this is that it is so well organized and straightforward. That alone argues against it being the work of Paul. No serious Bible scholar attributes it to him. The work is not a letter, it is a sermon.

The Old Testament Messianic prophecies do not differentiate between Jesus' first and second comings. The disciples and many others were confused by this (see John the Baptist's last confrontation with Jesus). But, make no mistake, the Church is living in New Covenant times and has been ever since Jesus was raised from the dead. It does not seem that all New Covenant prophecies have come to pass yet. Nor, does it seem that this period will ever end.

According to the Bible: The Law given to Israel does not apply to Christians. Paul did lots of writing about this. The New Covenant applies to everyone. There is no way to God accept through Jesus Christ. Despite what people would like to believe, the Bible tells of no loopholes for those who lived good lives but did not believe, or even for those who never heard the Gospel. The default state of all humans is lost. Those who hear and properly respond are the ones who will be saved. (Count yourself blessed you have heard the message and have a choice.)

[dtknowles]

So rejecting the Bible is no better or worse than never hearing the Bible? Lost is lost.

Are sinners punishments proportional, worse for those who are evil than for lesser sinners?

If Jesus is/was not the Messiah then we would not be living in New Covenant times?

Don't you believe in the second coming?

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

So rejecting the Bible is no better or worse than never hearing the Bible? Lost is lost.

Are sinners punishments proportional, worse for those who are evil than for lesser sinners?

If Jesus is/was not the Messiah then we would not be living in New Covenant times?

Don't you believe in the second coming?

Tim

To hear and reject the Gospel message is worse than never having heard it (2 Peter 2:21).

The Bible teaches more punishment for those who knew what was right but did not do it (Luke 12:48). It also teaches that some sins are worse than others and that the punishments will fit the crimes (John 19:11 and Mark 14:21).

The New Covenant exists only because Jesus is the Messiah. If that were not true, there would be no second covenant.

The Bible teaches that Jesus will return. How that will look, I am not sure.

I am of the belief that the idea that lost souls spend eternity in hell being tormented is incorrect. My understanding is that the lost will be punished for their sins and then be annihilated. It was never God's will that man live forever in a fallen state (Gen 3:22). Sin brings pain, struggles and unhappiness; all of which God wanted man to avoid. The misery will end for the lost when they cease to exist.

[dtknowles]

What is the most important message in the Gospels?

If I lead a wholesome that pious life when if I die without accepting Jesus then my soul will merely be annihilated. Seems alright. At the rate things are going I think I will be done with life when I die. Living forever seems a punishment. I know for years my Aunt prayed for God to take her. I would be glad if now after she has finally died she is with God in some manner close to her expectations but regardless. She is better off.

Tim

[Blackwater]

DT, I'm not sure I'm reading you right. Are you saying that you believe when you die, your life is over, and yet, you still wish your Aunt to be in the presence of Christ? Please explain. Am I just being dense here, or what???

[dtknowles]

I am just saying that if when I die, if my life is over because that is what God wants, that is fine with me. I wanted my Aunt to get what she wanted. As a life long devout Catholic, her expectations were set. She outlive a husband and 7 siblings was blind and frail years before she died. She was the longest lived and first born child of my maternal Grandmother. May she rest in peace with God.

Tim

[Teddy (punchie)]

These are questions that are very hard to answer. Question, does God require you to understand this? Repent, Baptized and Follow The Word. I try my best and if its not good enough then pray its fast and painless.

[1hole]

... If you don't know the Mosaic Covenant and you don't believe in Jesus, say you are a Hindu. Do either Covenants apply to you?

Tim

Let me rephrase and put your question in proper contex, it will be easier to answer that way.

Q: "If you are (spiritually) lost, what does either of God's Covenants mean to you?"

A: Are you serious? Even my formerly Hindu friends (now Christian) would be ROFL at that question!

[Gobeyond]

Annihilation is what jehovahs witnesses believe. John teaches in Rev. 20. That the lake of fire will burn forever for those not in the Book of Life. Paul taught that hell is away from the presence of God forever. Which would be a fiery trial for sure. He is responsible for all good life on earth. Jesus taught the fires of hell in “ the rich man and Lazarus”. We have eternal souls, how would you kill them? But don’t worry be like Jesus, obey him in the big things like Romans 1and 2 and live in repentance for the rest. We have a choice. Be working on yourself, don’t go to hell!

[roadie]

I'm at a loss to understand the point of casting unbelievers away forever, I mean, where's the logic in that? If they're gone forever, there's no redemption possible......forever is forever.

I see no benefit to anyone, including the entity doing the casting away. I would think there would be some path of redemption, if only for reasons of fair play. It's not like all unbelievers are the devil, or something like that, geez, some just don't follow the crowd. Doesn't mean we have no redeeming value of any kind.

Yes, I know, it's probably one of those awkward dilemmas that can't be answered by mere mortals.

[Rizzo]

I'm at a loss to understand the point of casting unbelievers away forever, I mean, where's the logic in that? If they're gone forever, there's no redemption possible......forever is forever.

I see no benefit to anyone, including the entity doing the casting away. I would think there would be some path of redemption, if only for reasons of fair play. It's not like all unbelievers are the devil, or something like that, geez, some just don't follow the crowd. Doesn't mean we have no redeeming value of any kind.

Yes, I know, it's probably one of those awkward dilemmas that can't be answered by mere mortals.

Not an awkward dilemma for some.
It's pretty simple. If you are not a Christian.......you are going to hell for eternity.
So state some/most Christians.

"I would think there would be some path of redemption"
I agree....and there is.
It's called reincarnation.
Basically you keep coming back until you've worked out your bad Karma and then you can progress to The Father.
No one goes to hell for eternity.

Fire and brimstone!!
Nope.

[1hole]

I'm at a loss to understand the point of casting unbelievers away forever, I mean, where's the logic in that? If they're gone forever, there's no redemption possible......forever is forever.

If you seriously want to understand, okay:

The logic is that God's rewards and punishments are balanced in judgement; going to his heaven is eternal, therefore going to his hell is also eternal.

Earthly good deeds (done in Jesus' name) will be justly rewarded in heaven at Jesus' (Bema) judgement seat. What you do not (yet) see is that not all in hell will be punished the same, it will be just. Earthly bad things done in wilful defiance of God's rules of right living will be rightly punished at the Great White Throne Judgement. And there will indeed be a great deal of logic in those judgements! (That's not what I say, it's all in the Book!)


It's not like all unbelievers are the devil, or something like that, geez, some just don't follow the crowd. Doesn't mean we have no redeeming value of any kind.

You seem to misunderstand that the foundation of salvation is NOT GOOD DEEDS and going to hell is not, ip so facto, because of being demonic; hell is a default choice we make for ourselves. (John 3:16-18)

The best of good deeds won't matter if our heart isn't right but we will all be judged by the "light" we have; the more we know the greater is our responsibility. (Rom 2:12)

Man has a lot of paths to follow and everyone follows others going somewhere. It's wise to follow those few going the right way. (Mat 7:21-23) If you think that not following Christians makes you an independent thinker you're wrong, you're just following the wide and easy path to hell.

Earning our way into heaven is impossible. Heaven demands total perfection and none of us are "good enough" for that! Therefore, our salvation is - must be - a free gift purchased for us by Lord Jesus through his self sacrifice on the cross IF we believe in, follow and cling to him as saviour; HE is perfect, we are not. We cannot be perfect but every true believer's sin records will be washed clean/blotted out by Jesus' blood so saved sinners are bought with a price we could never pay. (See 1 John 1:7, Heb 10:17, Eph 2:8,9 and others. And note there are no "good deeds" listed for salvation.) Again, those who reject Jesus send themselves to eternal hell because they choose to reject him as Lord, not for being "mean", as such.

Believe me, there is no "second chance" by Roman Catholic Pergatory or Hindu reincarnation nor is there any nice comfortable annihilation by order of Jehovah Witnesses, LDS, et al. Both the heaven of God and hell of fire are destinations for eternally existing, physical human beings. (Mat 7:13, 14)


Yes, I know, it's probably one of those awkward dilemmas that can't be answered by mere mortals.

No, not really. But few of us mortals, even staunch Christians, study the scriptures well enough to correctly answer your question.

The most common answers to questions like your's usually start with "I believe/think ...." or "I've always been told/taught ....", neither of which has any impact on God's reality as it's explained in his Bible. I know God doesn't care what I "think" or "believe" so I've studied and adjusted my mind/heart to match what He tells us.

A lot of good people get their minds so tangled up in what is or isn't sin, and how bad each sin is, that they lose sight of the bottom line. Bottom line, God measures the heart because it's from the heart that all bad things flow so the human heart is and always has been the critical issue. (1 Sam 16:7)

[wv109323]

I don't get caught up so much in the covenants. I believe in one covenant " The just shall live by faith". With that all men of all generations could have salvation. Starting with Abel, a sacrifical system was in place for the redeeming of sin. Job ( maybe the oldest book in the Bible) made sacrifices for his children.
Therefore no man of any generation, is excused from having faith unto salvation.
The way a sacrifice is made for our sin has changed. Now it is covered by the once for all sheed blood of Jesus Christ.
Faith leads to belief. Belief leads obedience. Obedience is better than sacrifice. With this obedience and belief we will follow close to God and his Son lead by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Bible is a roadmap to pleasing God in a written manual.

[Blackwater]

I am just saying that if when I die, if my life is over because that is what God wants, that is fine with me. I wanted my Aunt to get what she wanted. As a life long devout Catholic, her expectations were set. She outlive a husband and 7 siblings was blind and frail years before she died. She was the longest lived and first born child of my maternal Grandmother. May she rest in peace with God.

Tim

DT, when you say when your life is over, you'll be "OK" with suffering the penalties of disbelief??? Sorry, but my imagination won't stretch far enough to believe that. Can you explain further???

[dtknowles]

DT, when you say when your life is over, you'll be "OK" with suffering the penalties of disbelief??? Sorry, but my imagination won't stretch far enough to believe that. Can you explain further???

Reread what I wrote. It might help if you read the whole thread as well.

"I am just saying that if when I die, if my life is over because that is what God wants, that is fine with me."

If when my mortal body dies, I cease to exist, that is Ok with me. If God decides I need to be punished for how I lived my life so be it. Considering how I have lived, if God decides to subject my soul to serious punishment, God is not just.

Tim

[Good Cheer]

He is fair and gracious in His judgement.
Not in yours. His.

[wv109323]

To your original question, there is a belief of "Disposationalism". Most believe in 7 disposations. The event of all Jews being saved is still in the future according to this teaching. The Bible main themes are on the disposation under the Law and another disposation under" grace through faith".
As to the other discussion as to who and when people go to heaven I offer the following. God is perfect and precise. You can see this in His creation. So there is a precise way to enter heaven. There is one way and only one way. God's plan is free and available to all. " The just shall live by faith".
So if you can not make that one simple and free decision to obey God according to the Bible why would he want you when others are willing to obey? That is blunt but think about it.

[1hole]

The Bible main themes are on the disposation under the Law and another disposation under" grace through faith"...

Correct.

In answer to the original question, in the first dispensation, according to the "Law of Moses", salvation was to be earned; it didn't work because no one but Jesus ever met the ideal standard. So, He died as a sinless sacrifice for us!

Jesus, as "the son of man", came to earth to initiate a new, better testament/covenant in which HE would pay the sin debt (i.e., the second death) of anyone who would place themselves in His hands; it is a covenant of salvation as a gift freely given by the grace (meaning the unearned, unmerited love of God) because of our faith and trust in Jesus as Lord. But, we should all realize that Jesus himself was born, lived and died in the dispensation of the Law, he completed every jot and tidle of the Law.

Under the current rules, Christians live spiritually safe - eternally - in the covenant/testament/dispensation of Grace since Pentecost because Jesus has fulfilled the penalty of spiritual death (an eternal living death in hell) for our rejection of Him and for our sins in the flesh.

Thus, the new covenant dispensation of salvation by grace alone through faith alone began after Jesus' physical death and ascension, after Pentecost, and after the Holy Spirit came to indwell all believers. (See Eph 2:8-10)

[a danl]

Reread what I wrote. It might help if you read the whole thread as well.

"I am just saying that if when I die, if my life is over because that is what God wants, that is fine with me."

If when my mortal body dies, I cease to exist, that is Ok with me. If God decides I need to be punished for how I lived my life so be it. Considering how I have lived, if God decides to subject my soul to serious punishment, God is not just.

Tim

"do not fear him who can kill the body. fear Him who can kill both the body and soul in hell."

[1hole]

Tim, you really think you can judge God? Ah, goodness, you "know" a lot but as an ex-RC alter boy you're so proud of yourself it seems you understand nothing.

[a danl]

Tim, you really think you can judge God? Ah, goodness, you "know" a lot but as an ex-RC alter boy you're so proud of yourself it seems you understand nothing.
well said....