Need some Expert Opinions

[BABore]

In the past I have tried some of the data from

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

in my 450 Marlin 1895M. Due to a recent, and probable, SEE ringed chamber and vaporized primer I'm more than a bit leary. All of the loading data involves the use of fast burning powders with no fillers. I was using a load of WW231 powder with a 405 gr hard cast. It shot real well and I'm 99.9% sure that this loading was not involved in my SEE problem. I know of several other 444 and 45/70 shooters that use this data with no problems. One shoots hundreds of #457643 bullets with 10 grs of Titegroup.

Wanted to know what you old timers (experienced guys) thought about this data.

[Char-Gar]

If you are 99.9 percent certain the 231 load didn't cause your problem, what load did?

[45 2.1]

I'm not shooting that heavy of a bullet or charge with that powder and have had no problems.

[Bass Ackward]

In the past I have tried some of the data from

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

in my 450 Marlin 1895M. Due to a recent, and probable, SEE ringed chamber and vaporized primer I'm more than a bit leary. All of the loading data involves the use of fast burning powders with no fillers. I was using a load of WW231 powder with a 405 gr hard cast. It shot real well and I'm 99.9% sure that this loading was not involved in my SEE problem. I know of several other 444 and 45/70 shooters that use this data with no problems. One shoots hundreds of #457643 bullets with 10 grs of Titegroup.

Wanted to know what you old timers (experienced guys) thought about this data.


BA,

I would be interested in what .... "you" thought caused your ringed chamber problem? But then again you are asking questions about these loads, so it seems that you are still unsure yourself. Think about this possibility.

What happened to me about 20 years ago, as near as I can tell, was that I was plinking around with one of these too light loads in just a 44 Mag. I never felt that a bullet didn't exit. The primer went bang close enough Icouldn't tell. Then the next round went off and carried both bullets out. So I got a ringed (enlarged) chamber from the worst filler of all. A second bullet.

Nope. I no longer possess the ability to trust myself loading these types of rounds. Then you put yourself at the mercy of primer manufactuers that they will deliver. And fully 10% of a box of primers go either well above or .... below the mean. Even today! So you CAN create SEE even with fast powders. No, I buy and operate guns based on reasonable loads delivered by reasonable powders for that caliber. In other words, fill that case.

[BABore]

For the whole story on that check out the SEE post down the page some.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=3863

I have shot several hundred rounds of this particular load (WW231) prior to casting my own with CPB bullets. After I got into casting I probably shot 75 to 100 rounds with the Lyman 457643 bullet. Prior to my SEE incident I had shot up all of my remaining 231 loads. Of that I'm 99.9% sure as they were kept seperate from my other workups.

[PatMarlin]

The guy from the website link you posted must live near cause that's the gunshop I have my smith work done at.

Cept they can't do a trigger job on a Howa wortha damn.. :mrgreen:

[26Charlie]

If you double-charged with WW231, you would have a greatly excess pressure enough to 'vaporize' your primer & expand the pocket. This would not ring your chamber.
If you are using a wad of any sort to keep the powder down near the primer, you could have the 'secondary projectile' SEE effect, with a ringed chamber at the location of the bullet base, and the reflection pressure waves could blast the primer too.
If you have a ringed chamber you will know it from hard extraction and burnished brass on the case at the location of the ring.

The original SEE effect was in bottlenecked cases with reduced loads of slow powder. No explanation was ever really solidly found for it, so far as I know, although I always thought it was from incomplete ignition causing a "chuffing" effect of the powder, starting pressure reflection waves bouncing back & forth between breech and projectile. Having been an artilleryman I do know this can happen in (separate loading - e.g. 155mm howitzer) artillery, if the black powder igniter charge is not adjacent to the primer; breechblocks have been blown out with reduced charge loads this way.

[BABore]

In regard to the ringed chamber and greatly expanded primer pocket. I believe that was induced by excessive leading. Check out the post I submitted in the SEE thread. I go into great detail there. The barrel was checked prior to touching off the damaging round.

For the record, lets say that the round fired had nothing to do with WW231 powder and I never mentioned a gun problem. What are your guys opinions on the data listed at the site mentioned above? Do you see any potential problems with using light charges of fast burning powders for plinking loads? The theory behind their use is how the powder burns. Greg Mushial goes into that in one of his links.

[Char-Gar]

BABore...From what I can gather, you want us to tell you that your 231 loads could not have been the source of your problem. However, you don't give us any other loads that you are working with. That is far too little information for anything but speculation and SWAG.

I for one can't say that your 231 loads DID NOT cause your problem. The fact that you and others have shot many of these loads does not mean it can't cause problems. Many folks drive 100 mph, walk on wires and handle high explosives for years without any problems, until they do.

I don't think small charges of fast pistol powder in cavernous cases like the 45-70 is a good idea. You are setting yourself up for a number of problems from multiple charges, to SEE to whatever by doing so. Murphy and his law book will do a number on you.

I have about six 45-70s that live here at my home and I make certain I have good load density in all of them. I have come to believe that air inside the case is an enemy of cast bullet shooters. The enemy does not always get you, but there is always the chance.

Many will poo-pah me but that is all right. I will keep on doing it my way and keeping all my eyes, fingers, barrels and chambers as they are supposed to be.

[Char-Gar]

Oh yes...The notion that leading in the barrel could cause the primer to be vaporized the and barrel ringed is a new concept to me. Of all the possible causes of your problems, I would think that one would be so far down the list as to be a non-starter. But what do I know? Maybe some of the big boys have had primers vaporized and barrels rung from leading.

[Char-Gar]

Oh yes...The notion that leading in the barrel could cause the primer to be vaporized the and barrel ringed is a new concept to me. Of all the possible causes of your problems, I would think that one would be so far down the list as to be a non-starter.

But what do I know? Maybe some of the big boys have had primers vaporized and barrels rung from leading.

[BABore]

Chargar,

I don't really care to flame anybody on this forum, but if you'll kindly pull your head out for a moment and READ my posts. I CLEARY stated, several times, that if you want the specifics on all of the loads and the blow by blow of what happened GO TO THE "SEE" THREAD. Its all there for everyone to SEE. I guess I should not have even mentioned it so as not to confuse.

What I was asking, maybe not clearly enough, is for some comments on the use of fast powders for plinking loads. The Lyman cast book lists Unique as the fastest powder for the 45/70. In the 30'06 they go as fast as Red Dot and 700X. The web site I directed people to http://www.gmdr.com/ has a ton of well written data on many calibers. Is it good stuff or not. That's the question.

[Bass Ackward]

I have shot several hundred rounds of this particular load (WW231) prior to casting my own with CPB bullets. After I got into casting I probably shot 75 to 100 rounds with the Lyman 457643 bullet. Prior to my SEE incident I had shot up all of my remaining 231 loads. Of that I'm 99.9% sure as they were kept seperate from my other workups.


BA,

Rest assured that chamber ringing happens so infrequently, that every single time it happens, the guy that experiences it will say I shot that load many times before and after that. The key though, is that it only takes one.

As much as you can trust yourself and the powder, you can't trust the primer. If you get a squib primer, or lets say that you have a burr on one side of your flash hole, where it blocks the flame. You might shoot it several times until it moves into just the right position and walla. If you have powder up to at least 50% of the case, you always hit direct flame.

So, you really assume the risk when you load down like that. Some times you win, ....................

[sundog]

BA, if all you are wanting is some opinions about fast powders in large cases, I have one. An opinion, that is. I've shot alot of cast plinking loads in large bottle neck case and by far the best powders for me have been the medium speed powders like [my favorite, bar none] 4227 (either flavor), 2400, 4198, 3031, 4759, Rl7, and on up to about 4895. Have I used the fast powders? Yea, but the medium speeds work just dandy. sundog

[StarMetal]

I had a Browning BLR 22 rimfire leveraction. I had bought it new. I know for a fact the bore was perfect because I looked through it after I would clean it. The one day it got a ringed bore, not chamber. The barrel was ringed about two, three, inches from the chamber. Only thing I know I didn't different was CCI Stinger just hit the market. It didn't have the ring before I had shot some of those, but it did after. Not saying they did it, that's the only thing I done differently in shooting that rifle. I had no squib loads, all ammo shot out of that rifle impacted something. So what caused that?

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

I had a Browning BLR 22 rimfire leveraction. I had bought it new. I know for a fact the bore was perfect because I looked through it after I would clean it. The one day it got a ringed bore, not chamber. The barrel was ringed about two, three, inches from the chamber. Only thing I know I didn't different was CCI Stinger just hit the market. It didn't have the ring before I had shot some of those, but it did after. Not saying they did it, that's the only thing I done differently in shooting that rifle. I had no squib loads, all ammo shot out of that rifle impacted something. So what caused that?

Joe


Now Joe,

You are the man that has theories on why the sky is blue. And you don't know why that happened?

It sure is obvious to me. But danged if I am goin to tell ya. :grin:

[sundog]

Oh, btw, in case anyone is interested, I've been shooting since I was about four or five, and loading since very early 70's. I do not consider myself an 'expert', but I do 'know' some things. Like this - in a decent 06 with a decent 180ish cast boolit and about 21 gr of 4227, you can plink all day long at a hunert yards. This is but one example.

And if Joe doesn't mind too much, I'll answer about the sky blue querstion. God intended it to be that way. The scientific explanation works okay, too.... sundog

[26Charlie]

Got to be the work of the Ring Fairy.

[Char-Gar]

BABore...Well actually I did hunt up you info in the other thread. You question just did not make much sense. I am not very good as guessing what somebody is asking when they don't ask it. I will try harder to read between the lines.

You question sounded like...Hey guys, I screwed up my rifle, but I am certain my light loads didn't do it. What do you think about that?

All of that aside..my responses will tell you what I think of your 12/231 load and I will stick by those responses.

[SharpsShooter]

I looked at the data on the site you mentioned and the first thing that comes to mind incredible opportunity to double charge a case with the obvious results. I agree 100% with Chargar. Load density in such cavernous cases must be 100% to make me feel safe behind the gun. I have seen PPC guns destroyed or badly damaged by double charges and you only need to see that happen once to make a believer out of ya.

[Blackwater]

BA, as I read through your posts, it occurred to me that the ringing of the chamber is likely the clue to the answer you're looking for. The high pressure indications you had, i.e. the primer, make me want to think that a double charge was the culprit, but that doesn't explain the ringed chamber at all, so makes me doubt that.

Now realize as I write this, that I once blew up a Super Blackhawk. NOT something I EVER want to do again, BELIEVE ME! Not only was I saddened to lose a good gun, it scared the devil out of me, too! When I turned the gun over and saw the TWO missing caps on two cylinders, what was left of the one that detonated literally brazed to the sidewalls of what was left of the chamber, I had to sit down quickly to avert falling on my keester from weak knees. Literally! I'm not joking a bit there. I traced my own detonation back to having loaded some 231 in a frustrated very late at night session, and pouring that 231 from my powder hopper back into my near empty can of 2400 (my usual powder for that .44). This of course set me up for the NEXT session, where I loaded 22.3 gr. of what I THOUGHT was 2400 under a 240 gr. Win. JHP. It took several days for me to think clearly enough to remember the details, and figure out what I'd done. I simply could not believe that I'd done what I'd done, even AFTER confirming it by looking at my can of 2400. 231 and 2400 look nothing alike, and that confirmed it clearly. Even THEN it was extremely difficult for me to accept what I'd done. I'd loaded tons of loads, and just couldn't let myself believe it.

The pressure indications still make me think that a double charge MAY (?) be involved, but that ringed chamber is a real puzzler. Only thing I can add to what's been written here is that maybe (???????) a bug or something crawled up inside the case, and somehow caused the ringed chamber???? Maybe???? I dunno, really, but thought of it and thought I'd pass the idea on.

I've had things that just couldn't possibly happen, HAPPEN, a couple of times in my life, and it's a puzzling and amazing thing when they DO happen. Even afterward, I have trouble believing that what happened actually DID happen. Maybe there's something in our brains that just "Does Not Compute" as the robot on the old Lost in Space TV show usta' say? I don't know about that, either. All I know is it's AWFULLY humbling when stuff like this happens. Makes a man doubt himself in ways he just can't affort to do so, or he'd worry himself to death about things that rarely ever happen but once in several lifetimes, I guess.

There's always a cause for things like this, but they SURELY are mystifying sometimes, and some of them are never figured out. I think it's those instances that really scare the schmidtt out of us, and though I wish I could provide some solace via an explanation, sometimes there simply isn't one. That doesn't help, I know, but that's been my experience.

Can anyone say what MIGHT happen if a bug crawled into a case? Could it cause that ringed chamber???? I don't think I have the knowledge to deal with this prospect, in all honesty.

[BABore]

Thanks for your replys.

In regards to the fast powder useage. My current plans are to avoid them in my 450 Marlin. I'm planning to stick with SR4759, XMP5744, and ReLoder 7 for my 1,200 to 1,400 fps loads with the 457643. About the only fast powder load I currently use is the "Load" for my 30'06 with 13 grs of Red Dot. They are scaled and flashlite inspected only.

As far as my past gun problem, I'm thinking the ringed chamber might have been a prior incident from my case head swelling to huge dimensions. I had fired some pretty hot loads in that barrel that I now know were several thousand psi over the limit. They were at or just below book max, but with a different cast bullet. I received some Hodgdon pressure data, from a commercial loader, that showed my 52.0 grains powder charge needed to be reduced to 48.7 to make the 43,500 psi limit. Pressure signs are a big PITA with a lever action as they seldom show it until your way over. Velocity, extraction, primer condition, and case head expansion just don't show enough. Combine this with a new cartridge and limited data.

[Char-Gar]

When I was 18 years old back in 1959, I scrimped saved and got a brand new .300 Weatherby rifle. I had been loading for a couple of years and thought I knew what it was all about.

I wanted to wring every last fps out of that rifle I could. I was enamored with speed. I blew out a few primers and expanded a few case heads in the process.

The local gunsmith who was my mentor in life as well as guns, sat me down and had a talk with me about the foolishness of trying to push any rifle to and through the red line. He told me a few stories about folks he knew who were shy an eye, a finger or two and even a part of their brain.

I also had a Winchester 86 in 45-70 I was pushing as hard as I could. He told me if I wanted a .458 Mag. then buy a .458 Mag. Since that day, I have never pushed a rifle any where near max.

Fourty six years have passed and I am one of the older generation of shooters now and I have seen the wisdom of his admonition time and time again.

I guess this sound a little preachy and maybe it i. Perhaps Worth Palmer preached to me back in 1959, but I didn't take it as such. I took it as sound advice from a man who cared about me. That is the sprit of this post for anybody that is interested.

[Junior1942]

>That is the sprit of this post for anybody that is interested.

Yes, and it's still good advice today. Loading heavy stresses actions. People who do it don't stop to consider what might happen down the road when the stressed-out rifle makes its way into new hands via inheritance, etc., etc. We don't live forever.

[PatMarlin]

re-subscribe

[robertbank]

Charger your post should be a sticky!

Merry Christmas

Bob

[versifier]

Amen to that (no pun intended, or not much!) A Sticky it should be!
There are velocity vultures everywhere, and many just won't listen. All are accidents waiting to happen, now or as Junior so aptly pointed out, later from the guns they've overstressed and then sold. Stupid mistakes or inattention at crucial times can have fatal consequences and many loaders are way, way too cavalier in their attitudes about the dangers.
My most recent thorn in the side is a local guy who can't understand why his repro .44Russian shouldn't be able to handle some .44mag loads because "they take the same size bullet, don't they?" To be sure, I pinned his ears back, first privately, and then publicly when he persisted, but I think his plumbing is backed up and the waste material has been heading north instead of south. (Now there's a polite way of saying that, how unlike me!)
Speaking of safety, I saw a sign in a small gunshop some years back: "If-a you talk-a with-a you hands, please put-a da pistol down-a first."

[BABore]

Chargar,

I whole-heartedly agree with you and your reloading theories. What I was getting at was the data was Hodgdon cast and jacketed and Speer. It was worked up slowly using a chronograph and measuring case head expansion on new cases. Other than a steady increase in velocity there were no obvious pressure signs compared to what you see in a bolt gun. Never were book charges exceeded. Myself and many others on Marlin Owners forum freaked when we learned that we were over-pressure. Nobody had any signs. We all learned from that report.

[Bass Ackward]

Chargar,

I whole-heartedly agree with you and your reloading theories. What I was getting at was the data was Hodgdon cast and jacketed and Speer. It was worked up slowly using a chronograph and measuring case head expansion on new cases. Other than a steady increase in velocity there were no obvious pressure signs compared to what you see in a bolt gun. Never were book charges exceeded. Myself and many others on Marlin Owners forum freaked when we learned that we were over-pressure. Nobody had any signs. We all learned from that report.


BA,

That's why I like Quickload. Once you chrono one load and adjust the variables of the program to get the predicted velocity to agree with what is actually chronographed, your pressure will track accordingly no matter how you change your loads. And you can see how the pressure relates to "your gun". Getting something pressure tested really only gets you so close to a standard. You could have actually been way below or above that point. Important when you have no other method to perform this function.

[PatMarlin]

Damn Quickload almost has got me to buy a PC.

Hard thing to swallow for a Mac user.. :bigsmyl2:

[9.3X62AL]

Chargar's post is an Honorary Sticky, far as I'm concerned. Maybe Willy will work his magic and get it upgraded.

I was lucky enough to have two mentors like Chargar did--both now passed on to their rewards. The first was Leo Reyes, an Army retiree who made a second career working in my Dad's office. I think he could fit a 1911A1 blindfolded, and could eat the X-ring at 50 yards with a 22 Woodsman, an Army Special 38, or 1911A1 in 45. Much of what my sister and I know about pistolcraft came from Leo.

A bit later, I was referred to Ellis Simon of Yucaipa, a master gunsmith whose ability to tune a Colt V-spring revolver was legendary. He paid me a high compliment when he said that my revolvers showed that I wasn't running them hard, and that showed common sense. Both men emphasized loading a platform 10% under its theoretical full capacity, which would lengthen its service life geometrically. Neither man was real fond of Rugers, but reserved their intrepid revolver load work for Blackhawks. Neither was real keen on S&W's, either--but would politely put up with my sister and I using them.

I miss them both very much.

[44man]

Several thoughts! That is a VERY small amount of powder in a very large case! Where was the powder when the primer went off? Did the primer lose it's flame, push out the boolit with pressure before the powder ignited? Did the pressure from the primer alone compress the powder causing it to detonate? Did the primer flame front pass over the powder and ignite it from the front of the charge AFTER IT PUSHED OUT THE BOOLIT?
WAY too many questions to allow me to ever think of using such a charge no matter how many rounds have been fired without trouble.
For a light load, I would use a bulky powder like 4759 and Use some dacron to hold it in the rear of the case. Yes, it costs more to shoot, but what is a gun and maybe eyesight or a hand worth?

[Char-Gar]

BABore..Back in 1959 when I was blowing primers out of the pockets and deforming case heads, I was useing data from a well known gun/handloading writer of the day and published in a reputable magazine.

You just can't trust any redline loads you pick up, no matter what the source.

For the most part, I am still using the powders I did 45 years ago (3031,4895, 4227,4759,4350, Unique, Bullseye and 2400). It has taken me decades to get to know these powders and I add others very slowly.

I added AA5 about fifteen years ago, when it was cheaper than Unique and would do the same things. The price has gone up and now I buy Unique again. I have added WC872 as a principal cast bullet powder. This stuff is so slow, you can't get enough in a medium size case to get anywhere near the redline. I am going to start with H335 pretty soon.

We pitch out loads on the board and I have yet to see one that makes my BS detector go off. But each one passes by the detector and it must pass the test before I would even think about loading it.

I guess the jist of this post is, I don't "boldly go where no man has gone before" or go near the redline no matter who has gone there before. I am the only "expert" I trust and I shure as hell ain't no expert!

There is an old legal principal "res ipsa loquiter" (The thing speaks for itself). When folks are lifting data from other sources and it proves to be above the redline (intentional or not) imprudence is in that mix somewhere.

[PatMarlin]

I posted this on another thread, but thought I'd post it here also:


Richard Lee writes:

Rules for powder charges-

1. Do not reduce a charge more than 50% except for squib loads.

2. The slowest burning powder should not be reduced more than 20%. Each preceeding powder may be reduced 1% more.

Example: 20%, 21%, 22%, 23%, 24%, etc.

It's unlikely you will ever need nor desire, to reduce a charge more than 50% unless you use a fast powder for ultra-light (squib) loads.

...

[JohnH]

BABore, I imagine that there are a number of shooters reading this who are reluctant to say "I've shot squib loads using Unique, Blue Dot, 2400, for 40+ years and never had a problem" The powder makers have said in past they can't replicate the effects you describe and point the finger at double charges and bullets stuck in barrel with a second fired behind it.

My own experience is this, in the last three years I've fired 6 pounds of a milsurp (Bartletts #107) that is quite like Blue Dot. I've shot it in 44 Mag, 45-70, 30-30, 38-55, 357 Max 7-08 and 7.62X54R with no ill effects.

I've used 231 in my 38-55 and dont like it because it don't fill the case enough to be sure I've not double charged anything. My loading habit is 10 cases at a time, and everything gets moved from one block to another after each operation and everything is inspected before the next operation is started.

I ain't smart enough to diaganose your SEE over the 'puter, don't know that eve if I'd been there I'd say more than Hmmmmmm.......

If you don't trust 'em don't use 'em. If ya do trust 'em, don't trust yourself. The powder never makes a mistake.