A few cuts and burns...

[Boerrancher]

Well I had another major Dumb @$$ moment while deer hunting this morning. I had managed around 7:30 to convince a couple of does to come out of the heavy brush with my grunt call. I drew down on the first one with my mod 66 in the 44-40. I pulled the trigger and down she went. The second one ran a small circle and came back. I worked the lever and when the fresh round went to chamber the lever wouldn't close all the way. I backed it out and tried again as the deer was still standing there.

After several attempts to close the lever, I took my eyes off of the deer and looked down to see what was up, as I couldn't get the bolt open or closed. I saw the the cartridge liked about a half an inch from chambering. I was looking down at the cartridge and trying to force the lever back open when I guess I bumped the trigger and it went off. There was a loud blast and I couldn't see anything. I sat back on my log that I had been sitting on all morning, and laid the rifle down. I could feel the blood running off of my nose and beard, but couldn't see or hear anything. I took off my gloves and held them on my face as best as I could figure where all of the blood was coming from.

After about 15 min my vision started to come back, and the bleeding had slowed considerable. I picked up my rifle, the piece of brass from the first round I fired, and noticed the cartridge in the rifle was just like I had seen it before it went off, with the exception that the side wall was blown out. I made my way back to the four wheeler and back to the house. After cleaning my face up and doing a bit of butterfly work on the gash on my forehead. I started to survey the damage to my rifle. I went downstairs to the gun room and went to work trying to extract the mangled brass from the action. It only took a few min with needle nose pliers and I had the head separated from the remaining portion of the case body that was not embedded in my face.

With both haves of the ruptured case out I unloaded the rest of the cartridges from the mag tube, then loaded a dummy round I use as a set up round for my presses and dies, and found it would only chamber to the same point that the ruptured one did. The light bulb went on. I pulled out the empty round that was my first shot. It was missing the neck. I got a bore light and dental mirror and sure enough there is the neck of the first round stuck in the throat of my bore.

I tried flushing it good with PB Blaster and extracting with a tight bore brush, but that did not work. I have a broken case extractor for 06 type heads, and it is too small of a dia for the 44-40. I need some advice on how to get this piece of brass out. Keep in mind It had a 205 gr, 429 dia boolit run through it when it went off on me. Any suggestions to extract this broken case neck?

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[45nut]

Yikes! Glad your ,, O.K. Joe !
I'll leave the case neck removal to another, just glad your not too badly hurt!

[PatMarlin]

Thank God you're OK. What do you think happened?

[Doc Highwall]

Glad to here you are all right. Hearing things like this makes me glad I wear glasses. Did you have glasses on when it happened?

[Wayne Smith]

Joe I'm glad you are OK. Did you get the deer?

I would suggest a dowel just smaller than the case neck, wrapped with about 60 grit sandpaper. If nothing else you will rough it up enough to grab it some other way. I'm guessing your bore brush just slid inside it. Do you have a chamber brush? Or a bottle brush of the right size?

Maybe a smaller dowel with a finish nail run through it, just enough protruding to catch on the case neck?

[obssd1958]

Joe,

Hope you're alright...

As far as the stuck case neck, if you have any cerrosafe, you might try using it to make a "chamber cast" that can be driven out while holding onto the remaining bit of brass.

HTH

Don

[testhop]

joe i have put rifle in a frezzer over night as brass srinksfaster than steel then you take
a 45 or larger bore brush jam it inthe nroken neck twist and pull or in case of a lever you may haveto change things around a bit

[redneckdan]

take a .45 or .50 cal bore brush and a cleaning rod. Insert the cleaning rod from the muzzle all the way through the barrel, thread in the bore brush through the action, pull the rod partially out until the brush is in the brass case remains. Now push down hard on the end of the cleaning rod. The brush bristles with catch in the brass, wedge in good and hard and the case neck should come out.

[sav300]

Joe,am glad your ok.Lots of good ideas to fix your stuck case problem.Now go buy a lotto/lottery ticket. :-)
Lionel

[Calamity Jake]

Glad your alright, 44-40 lever guns are bad about allowing excess case streching. My 66 44-40does the same thing, i've taken to keeping a modified allen wrench with the rifle the 3/16 allen wrench has the short arm ground off until it is about 1/8 inch longer than the wrench is wide then the 1/8 inch part is reverse ground to form a hook, this is used along with a pair of small needle nose vice grips holding the long shank of the AW the hook end is inserted in the chamber allowing it to hook onto the case mouth then tap against the vice grips to pull the stuck case out.
Use a cheep allen to modify as the steel will be softer then the barrel steel and should not scratch the chamber.
Now go look at all loaded ammo and empty cases to check for others that show impending case head seperation.

Once again, glad you are all right.

[Bullshop]

Couldnt have happend with a Marlin! Marlin 2pc firing pin will not allow the pin to reach the primer until the action is closed completely. There was a good reason why they did that and you learned it the hard way. Glad your OK !!!!!
BIC/BS

[PatMarlin]

Go marlin.

[Bigjohn]

Glad to hear you are not too badly hurt. Probably a good excuse to sit down with a good single malt and think for a moment or two before doing anything else.

The rifle can wait a little while and most of the ideas already mentioned here are good solutions for the remaining case neck problem.

Are your injuries under control, Joe or do you think you will need further attention?

When you have time to post on the results of your investigation into the initial problem of case neck separation, I am certain many hear would like to know.


Best wishes,
John

[EDK]

Glad you're OK.

Use the bore brush method BUT first figure out how to get KROIL (or equivalent) between the casing and the chamber wall...possibly a plug at the chamber end and then pour/spray the Penetrating Oil down the barrel. (My pal did this with a 243 and a separated casing, back before KROIL, using a shotgun brush) You might want to put in enough to soak and let it set for a day or two...and add more "P-oil" to get all the help you can.

Glad you're OK....after the patching up...and my nitro pills for the heart attack...I'd have needed clean underwear. LOL. Seriously, God loves you Pal! AND just proved it again.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[35remington]

Glad to hear the important parts are still intact. That's a heart stopping incident, for sure.

Can't help but wonder about the separation of the case in the chamber that caused the subsequent problems; too hot a load for the lockup, causing stretch that eventually lead to a later separation when reloaded, or just a very tired case?

[Bullshop Junior]

try a lag bolt
thread it into the case and pull it out
done that with a 22 hornet befor.
BIC/Danie;/BS Jr.

[schutzen]

Man, that's scary. I'm glad you’re OK, but make us all happy and double check. Have someone else look you over. The wife maybe, but play it safe.

I have a couple of thoughts on extracting the ruptured shell. I think the Army issued a .45-70 broken shell extractor. You might ask around to see if anyone has one you can borrow. If that fails, get a cheap set of dental picks and bend one to reach up into the chamber to grab leading edge of the brass. I have no first hand knowledge of the freezer technique, but I have heard several say it does work.

[AkMike]

I'll second the cerrosafe way!

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Joe, There's a tool I make for removing case necks, I'll try to describe it. It's a length of 1/8" stainless steel heli-arc welding rod, just a few inches longer than the barrel. I bend about 2" of one end a few degrees, and grind the end a bit less than square with the main section, to catch on the case. Slip it down the front, and when it catches on the case neck edge, tap it with a small hammer. It works almost every time, and I've never had a problem with scratching the chamber.
Don't forget to go back for that doe you got with the first shot.
Morgan

[725]

What good fortune you weren't more seriously injured. Count your blessing every day.

[Three44s]

Hope you are still doing OK ....... you missed a sheer disaster by a "mere whisker" !!!

Three 44s

[Jim]

Joe, are you ABSOLUTELY sure there are no fragments in your eyes? Might not be a bad idea to have a doc check that out.

[copdills]

Glad you are OK , hope you get your rifle worked out

[Bret4207]

Yeesh!!! Well, at least you're still breathing. What a freak thing to happen.

Find a tap that will fit the remained of the case, lightly turn it in and tap out with a cleaning rod from the muzzle.

[missionary5155]

Praise God you could walk away with your vision !
I guess I will make a check of my 44-40 brass... I only neck size but it still is a good idea to remember to check ALL bottleneck cases off and on.

[waksupi]

Dang, Joe. Heck of a way to start season off. The others have given good thoughts on the stuck case.

[eka]

Joe, I'm glad to hear you're still in one piece. And, you know I'm glad you didn't let your pride get in the way of sharing this with us. Because, pal, we all have our moments. The gremlins visit each and everyone of us from time to time. I know I'm good for pulling a bonehead every now and then. I guess what they say about those things that don't kill us, making us stronger has some merit.

Take care of yourself.

Keith

[Boerrancher]

First off, I thank all of you for your concern and best wishes, and all of the suggestions as to get the stuck case out, which I did get out late last night, by taking a piece of resized brass, and running it up into the chamber. Since the case was only resized and not expanded the neck of the case went inside the stuck case. Then I put a bit of pressure on the leaver and used a brass rod down the muzzle to bump out the case. Bingo, the broken case came out stuck to the resized casing.

As for as what happened, I have figured that out as well. The initial cause of the case separation was caused by the fact that my brass that I am using has been fired and reloaded so many times that most of the writing stamped into the case head is completely gone. Once again I should have remembered my fathers advice, and never use brass that is more than 3x fired when you have to depend on it. He said, "The old stuff is fine for the range, where a broken case can be easily extracted, but in the field it can cause a dangerous or even deadly situation." I guess once again, the things Pop told me as a youngster proved to be true. I just wonder how many other pieces of advice he gave over the years I have forgotten, and will come back to haunt me.

The secondary failure, the one that left me a bloody mess, was fairly easy to figure out as well. I was shooting a mod 1866 Winchester. It is the basic Henry design with a loading gate and a forearm added. There is no mechanism to prevent those old guns from firing before the bolt goes into battery. In fact, the only real safety mechanism for those old rifles is the one between your ears, and mine obviously failed. While messing around with it and trying to figure out why the round wouldn't fully chamber, I must have inadvertently bumped the trigger causing the negligent discharge. Since those old guns are completely open on the top and have a small bolt, there was lots of room for the gas and pieces of brass to escape, with out damaging the receiver.

I feel much better this morning after a good nights sleep. I still have some ringing in my ears and my face still hurts, but other than that, I am in good shape. I am so, so glad that I didn't put in my contact lenses yesterday. I almost did, but decided to be lazy and just wear my glasses. I think I will from now on wear my glasses anytime I am going to be shooting. Thank you all again for your suggestions and well wishes. I think when I go to town today I will buy a lotto ticket.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[woody1]

Yes indeed, yer a lucky man Joe! Best wishes for a full recovery. Regards, Woody

[StrawHat]

Glad to hear all seems to be okay with you and the rifle. More so for you.

As to the original problem of the case separating, could it be you are working the brass too much? The 44 WCF is not unlike the 303 Enfield in that chambers are cut sloppy and reloading dies are cut small.

How much is a fired case resized when you run it in the die? Is the shoulder set back? You might need to open up the neck portion of the die if it is resizing more than a couple thousandths smaller than the bullet.

For a while it seemed like all the reloading dies were made for jacketed bullets and now they are coming back to recognize that lead bullet shooters need dies a little bit bigger.

Glad you are okay and hope it all works out for you.

[scrapcan]

OK first off I would make sure I take care of the first deer you shot. Sit back have a good piece of back strap and be glad all went as well as it did.

Also glad to hear you got the case neck out.

Did you happen to notice if the projectile left via the barrel? You might want to do a detail strip and verify no additional stress points exist in the action. I had a similar thing happen with an old Winchester and it broke the loading gate and the firing pin.

Scary moment to be sure and I am glad you are OK.

[Heavy lead]

Glad everything is fine Joe.

[madcaster]

Glad you are okay Sir!

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Glad to hear you survived it. You were very lucky to have walked away from that incident.

Might be a good time to thank the good Lord for all you blessings.

Best Regards,
Everett

[Springfield]

OK, 3 things. First, I am glad you were wearing your glasees so hopefully your eyes are fine, although it might not be a bad idea to have an eye doctor take a good look in there. Second, this has happened at least a few times in the last year or so to cowboy shooters who try and force a round into their rifle chambers. And third, I have reloaded my 44-40 brasss at least 8 times, been using the same brass for 5 years.Got a couple of split cases the last few months, maybe I should pitch it before I have something give out? Any way to tell if youare about to have a case separation? I remember seing pics of rifle brass with cases about to go but I don't see that on my 44-40 cases. I only shoot BP in my 44-40.

[montana_charlie]

Most of the extraction ideas presented have some merit, but each of them is complicated by the fact that you are working with a lever action receiver attached. It greatly hampers your access to the chamber.

I would strongly consider unscrewing the barrel before trying anything...unless you run across a tool specifically designed for the job.
CM

[leadeye]

Good to hear you are alright, sounds like everything will heal in time. Tough way to start deer season.

[9.3X62AL]

Joe--

I'm glad to read that all ended happily for both you and the rifle.

[DLCTEX]

Glad you escaped with light injuries (notice how they're "light" when on someone else?). My similar experience was with an old Stevens Favorite that a fellow was trying to trade to me.The extractor was so worn that it overrode the cartridge as the action closed and fired the round just as I looked up. I got brass in my chin and nose, but my eyes were spared. Ears rang for a while, too. DALE

[TexRebel]

OK, I have reloaded my 44-40 brasss at least 8 times, been using the same brass for 5 years.Got a couple of split cases the last few months, maybe I should pitch it before I have something give out? Any way to tell if youare about to have a case separation? I remember seing pics of rifle brass with cases about to go but I don't see that on my 44-40 cases. I only shoot BP in my 44-40.

Check the brass at the shoulder for a ring of lighter color, that is the 1st sign of worn cases, it is not as evident in a 44-40 as the 38-40, but the brass is highly worked in the shoulder area, as shown in this attached pic, please note the shoulder has moved a fair bit.
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Texrebel_album/reloading/IMG_0445.jpg
P.S. yes they are both 38-40
and Joe, again glad you are OK, you got lucky this time my friend

[SharpsShooter]

Whew! You are a lucky fella, but you know that I suspect. Sure glad you are not hurt and able to share the experience so that someone else might not have the same happen to them. Remember we learn from the mistakes of others because we won't live long enough to make all of them ourself.

SS

PS buy a Marlin [smilie=1:

[longhorn]

Glad you're OK! I wear glasses anyway, and have ruined 1 pair while shooting--I was damned glad to have sacrificed 'em. As for the '66, I always told the cowboy/SASS types I was shooting with that there were plenty of good reasons Winchester replaced the Henry with the '66, the '66 with the '73, and the '73 with the '92. Gotta be _real_ careful with old technology! I hunt with my Sharps, but safe handling of it goes well past what's necessary with a Remrugchester 777.

[JeffinNZ]

JOE - glad you are OK. You're a sucker for punishment ah? No Aussie medics to patch you up this time though.

DON'T do it again! I don't want to see "Mrs Joe" reporting in that you can't type due to a lack of sight.

[SCIBUL]

WOOOOOF ! Glad you're OK. You're a lucky man ! I have seen this kind of case separation but the gun was a MARLIN 444 so no injury... My friend (the shooter) and I have unstucked the broken case with liters of WD40 and a ram rod.
PS : Eyes don't grow again... You'd better see a doctor !

[monadnock#5]

I'm glad you're OK Joe. I hope someone was able to get the carcass out of the woods before the coyotes found it. If not, it's a small loss considering the situation you were in.

[Boerrancher]

I am healing up quite well. The skin on my face feels like leather from the powder burns but at least it is not tender like it was yesterday. The gash on my forehead has also started healing nicely. It is still a bit tender when my cap gets pulled down over it.

I had a friend of mine who was hunting on my place with me go up and get the doe. It was his last day to hunt, and he hadn't filled any of his tags. He was glad to get the deer and I was relieved that I didn't have to go back and get her. I will say that I was impressed with the performance of 10.5 grs of Unique with a G.C. 200 gr RNFP. I don't think a 30-06 with a 150 gr bullet would have done as good a job.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Wayne Smith]

Joe, do you know what kind of velocity you are getting with 10.5gr Unique? If I remember right I'm getting 1400fps out of a 20" barrel w/ 38-40gr FFG Goex compressed.

[Boerrancher]

Wayne,

IIRC, according to the books with a 20 in barrel it is somewhere between 1400 and 1500 fps. I don't have a chrono anymore to actually test with, but when I was shooting 8.5 gr I was a hair over 1200 fps with my 20 in barrel.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Bigjohn]

Good to hear you are on the mend, the rifle has been cleared and the deer is in the fridge.

Keep it up, Joe.

John.

[dragonrider]

Wow that could have been disastrous. Hope you heal quickly.

[Old Ironsights]

Rule one after the Sandbox...

Stop messing with IEDs. ;)

Glad you are OK.

[Greg]

Well I had another major Dumb @$$ moment... my mod 66 in the 44-40...

I worked the lever and when the fresh round went to chamber the lever wouldn't close all the way. I backed it out and tried again...

After several attempts to close the lever, I took my eyes off of the deer and looked down to see what was up, as I couldn't get the bolt open or closed. I saw the the cartridge liked about a half an inch from chambering. I was looking down at the cartridge and trying to force the lever back open when I guess I bumped the trigger and it went off. There was a loud blast and I couldn't see anything.

the piece of brass from the first round I fired, and noticed the cartridge in the rifle was just like I had seen it before it went off, with the exception that the side wall was blown out.

With both haves of the ruptured case out I unloaded the rest of the cartridges from the mag tube, then loaded a dummy round I use as a set up round for my presses and dies, and found it would only chamber to the same point that the ruptured one did. The light bulb went on. I pulled out the empty round that was my first shot. It was missing the neck. I got a bore light and dental mirror and sure enough there is the neck of the first round stuck in the throat of my bore.

Keep in mind It had a 205 gr, 429 dia boolit run through it when it went off on me. Any suggestions to extract this broken case neck?

As for as what happened, I have figured that out as well. The initial cause of the case separation was caused by the fact that my brass that I am using has been fired and reloaded so many times that most of the writing stamped into the case head is completely gone.

The secondary failure, the one that left me a bloody mess, was fairly easy to figure out as well. I was shooting a mod 1866 Winchester. It is the basic Henry design with a loading gate and a forearm added. There is no mechanism to prevent those old guns from firing before the bolt goes into battery. In fact, the only real safety mechanism for those old rifles is the one between your ears, and mine obviously failed. While messing around with it and trying to figure out why the round wouldn't fully chamber, I must have inadvertently bumped the trigger causing the negligent discharge. Since those old guns are completely open on the top and have a small bolt, there was lots of room for the gas and pieces of brass to escape, with out damaging the receiver.

I will say that I was impressed with the performance of 10.5 grs of Unique with a G.C. 200 gr RNFP

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

Joe

I read your report of the 1866 Winchester on Tuesday, and it has been rolling around in my mind ever since, the things that bother my are...

The Winchester '66 and the Model 1873 have the same basic actions, albeit different strengths...WEAK... the only thing holding the bolt closed is the toggle links and pins.

When over loaded it is possible to jam the firing pin in the fired position, so that the firing pin doesn’t retract with the bolt !!

With the firing pin jammed forward, the gun will fire before the bolt locks into battery. Leaving the cartridge case unsupported.

Before you shoot your M '66 again, check your bolt for firing pin protrusion...open the bolt somewhat, slip a finger tip and feel, if you can fell the firing pin tip extended past the bolt face, your firing pin is bent (?) and jammed forward.

Before you shoot your M '66 again, check your LOAD...10.5 grains of Unique is way hotter than Alliant recommends. The loads in the older Lyman Reloading Handbooks are hot and caution should be used when loading for the weakest of Winchester’s designs.

Before you shoot your M '66 again, slug your bore...Winchesters vary, but if your M '66 is .427, a .429 boolit might rise the pressure more than you want.


Happy Thanksgiving.


P.S. I jammed the firing pin on my Winchester M '73 - 38 WCF - 25 + years ago with a cast boolit load out of Lyman’s 45th ... I’ve been reluctant to enjoy my father’s rifle since.