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AnthonyB
12-19-2005, 10:52 PM
Santa brought a seven week old AKC chocolate lab puppy to the house today as an early present. Mom and Dad are both hip and eye certified good and have both achieved Master Hunter ranking, whatever that means. I'd like to raise a well-mannered companion who is at home in a dove field and with people; field trials and waterfowl have never been an interest of mine. I'd love to hear your training ideas and am interested in any references you suggest. I have perused the book aisles at the local Borders and have a few books already but would really like your ideas. I've never trained a hunting dog before, so keep in mind that I am likely less intelligent than the pup and should be started on newbie level advice. Tony

9.3X62AL
12-20-2005, 01:28 AM
Anthony--

As far as having a dog that is as good in the home as out in the field, you already accomplished that with the puppy's breed. Not trying to start a flame war here, but Labs EXCEL as family dogs--probably the best hunting breed for this characteristic.

Doves can pose a problem for some dogs. The small, very "dusty" breast feathers can annoy some dogs--thankfully, none of mine had this problem.

My experience is all with pointers--but there's a lot of cross-over between pointers and retrievers in a lot of "field manners" and tactics. The earliest training involves "proofing" them against gun-shyness. Once fully weaned and eating well on puppy rations, while the pup is eating or engaged in other enjoyable times--fire a cap pistol or bang a tin pot around him while he is engaged in this activity. Not right on top of him, just 8-10 feet away. If he reacts to the loud noise, IGNORE HIS RESPONSE--and DO NOT let wife or kids comfort him as if something bad just happened. Before long, the dog will associate loud noises with fun times (just like we do), and gun shyness will not be an issue.

The drive to flush birds and find birds is pretty much hard-wired in hunting breeds. Retrieving a thrown dummy bird with dove, quail, chukar, duck, or goose wings attached has been de rigeur for 200 years to refine the "retriever" mindset.

The biggest challenge to training a field-capable dog is harnessing their STRONG play drive into staying relatively close to the gun--they naturally try to extend their range outward, and this is counter-productive when you use a gun with 40-45 yard max range. Since the retriever will be flushing and not pointing and holding the birds, you don't want a retriever out very far. Pointers can range further, but I still didn't like my pointers out more than 20 yards ahead of me. A flushing dog at 20 yards out is at the EXTREME end of where I want him--12-15 yards is better. Opinions vary on this, depending on topography and bird species being sought. A lot of folks now use shock collars to train this perimeter limit--I use a longe line, old school but effective. Differentiate between the longe line and the leash by using the "HEEL" command with the leash--that way, the snap sound is associated with distance limits, and the "HEEL" with close limits. You will only need to carry the longe line for the first few years, the dog knows its meaning--whether it is attached or not.

waksupi
12-20-2005, 01:28 AM
Tony, hopefully it is right on seven weeks old. That is a crucial period in bonding with a pup. Then, keep the pup with you 24/7 for a couple months, if at all possible. At the end of that time, it should be able to read your mind. Worked for my old Chesapeake, anyhow. She knew what I wanted, before I asked for it. Same with the X's chow. Constant contact, and absolute obedience by six months. If you must leave it alone, as soon as you get home, get the dog, and make a big deal over it, and keep it with you at all times. Just my way of going about things. YMMV.
Nothing smells better, than a new puppy at Christmas.

versifier
12-20-2005, 02:50 AM
Waksupi, how right you are. There's nothing like a little skunk breathed fuzzball to bring balance to life. The bond is crucial, the timing is perfect, and the more time spent together in the first months, the stronger the bond.
I'm currently dogless and it will be a year or two before I'll be in a place where I'll be able to have one again. It's like I'm missing important pieces of myself. I, too, have known that joy, and I will know it again.
Anthony, you lucky man, any person who earns a dog's love is rich indeed, beyond all reconing, even if the odd sock or furniture leg gets chewed in the process. Only the love of a child is stronger and more humbling.
Some things the dog knows instinctively, some he must be taught. You have to know the difference - you get trained by him as much as he by you and you work with what he knows and expand on it together as a team. :D
Good people have good dogs, they learn by example and reflect the attitudes and personalities of the ones they love.

kenjuudo
12-20-2005, 08:41 AM
The cap gun trick works. Especially if it goes off the first few times during a sock tug-of-war. Advance to a .22 in the yard, shoot and throw the ball/decoy, they get the idea real fast. Never had a gunshy dog, I do have to make sure he doesn't sneak up and lay under the shooting bench though.

I wish I was half the man my dog thinks I am!

jim

waksupi
12-20-2005, 09:53 AM
Tony, I remembered something. When they get to the chewing age, cut some apple, cherry, or maple wood, right from the tree . Make it a foot or so long, a couple inches through. Leave the bark on. Pups love to chew these, as they are sweet, and you will save a lot of damage to other things. You'll go through a couple of these, at least, before the pup outgrows the chewing stage. Much better than the rawhide chewies. Those just promote other things being chewed.

sundog
12-20-2005, 10:44 AM
Ric, right on with the fruit wood. When my dog was a pup one of his favorite 'toys' was a piece of wild cherry branch about a foot long and inch and half in diameter - fresh off a tree I was trimming. It took awhile, but he finally gnawed off all the bark.

AnthonyB
12-20-2005, 11:15 AM
Fellas, thanks for all the responses so far. I'll dig out a cap pistol, and plan to make a trip to the skeet range this weekend to hang out behind the firing line a while. The pup was EXACTLY seven days old yesterday, and all the books seem to agree with Ric that the bonding timeframe is crucial and that seven weeks is the optimum time. The fruit wood is an EXCELLENT idea - my last Lab mix ate great portions of our quarters at Ft. Benning and required some inventive repairs. We won't have to leave this one alone nearly as much, and I'll cut a cherry limb for him this afternoon. Cabela's has the bird wings for sale, and an order for training dummies and wings will go in soon. Tony

shooter2
12-20-2005, 11:51 AM
Tony, all good suggestions as near as I can tell. Bonding is probably the most important thing you can do while the pup is still so young.

Get the book on obedience training by the Monks of New Skete. They are the best there is when it comes to that aspect. Yeah, they work with German Shepards, but the training is good for any breed.

Don't assume that retriever training is something you have to do alone. If you've never done it you may want to consider a good school. In your area there should be many. Ask around your skeet and trap ranges and you'll get a number I'm sure. I'm not talking a boarding school here. Rather, one where you both get schooled.

sundog
12-20-2005, 12:15 PM
So Tony enrolls in obedience school. The intructor tells him, "Be on time Monday evening at 7 pm, and, oh, be sure to bring a leash and collar." So, Tony shows up Monday evening promptly at 7 and goes into the classroom. He and the instructor are the onliest ones there who do not have a pup. The instructor looks at Tony, who is standing there with a leash and collor, and asks, "where's your pup?" To which Tony replies, "well, when we talked last you said to be sure and bring a leach and collar. You didn't say anything about bringing the pup...."

Slowpoke
12-20-2005, 02:01 PM
Santa brought a seven week old AKC chocolate lab puppy to the house today as an early present. Mom and Dad are both hip and eye certified good and have both achieved Master Hunter ranking, whatever that means. I'd like to raise a well-mannered companion who is at home in a dove field and with people; field trials and waterfowl have never been an interest of mine. I'd love to hear your training ideas and am interested in any references you suggest. I have perused the book aisles at the local Borders and have a few books already but would really like your ideas. I've never trained a hunting dog before, so keep in mind that I am likely less intelligent than the pup and should be started on newbie level advice. Tony

Hey---- Bird dog pups are pretty special, I don't pretend to be a master trainer myself but I have had the privilege of owning and working with 5 shorthairs so far in my life.

AS far as I am concerned the # 1 thing to guard against is a gun shy dog.
So introduce the pup to a 22 LR at about 3 -4 months of age, I always took mine out on long walks in the sticks and let the pup run amuck and do some exploring on its own , I just followed to keep him out of trouble, in my case it was mainly rattle snakes I was worried about. I tried to always pick a spot where I knew there was a lot of quail and rabbits, when the pup blundered into some quail or a rabbit and was showing some interest then I would fire the 22 revolver into the ground from 25 to 50 yards away, when they stopped and looked back at me I always made happy sounds and in my case I used the phrase HUNT EM UP. Slowly shorten the distance and increase the noise level till its no big deal for the pup, then you are set.

AS soon as you can get the pup interested in playing fetch, make it fun and as time goes by start adding a little discipline to it, like sit and stay, throw the ball and then in my case I used the phrase hunt em up to go find the ball, when that gets to be old hat, then add a little more difficulty to it, do the sit and stay and then throw two balls make them go out of sight, this is where you can start getting a couple of direction commands going for you, I use AWAY for left and BY for right, keep a few small stones in your pocket when you send the pup if its having trouble finding the balls get its attention and throw a stone near the ball and give one of your direction commands as time goes by they make the connection.

Go slow be patient and always end the session on a positive note, 5 minutes a day is much better than 30 minutes once a week as far as I am concerned.

And remember a gentile hand and soft voice will get you further faster than the opposite!!

A good retriever is a joy to have, its a rare day to ever lose a downed bird and sometimes you end up with a full limit and never fire a shot :)

Good luck

slughammer
12-20-2005, 08:58 PM
As shooter2 suggested, The Monks of New Skeet is excellent, I once borrowed a copy.

My brother and I bought the book "Water Dog" when we were kids and we got a black Lab. Lot of good pointers in there with the hand signals and such. Best to start him young with the basics of hand signals for direction. For being trained by a couple of kids, our lab (Sport) took hand signals pretty well. Currently I have a Chesapeak that was a rescue at 1.5 years; great at obedience, loves to hunt, but despite my best efforts absolutely clueless about hand signals. Very frustrating after having a dog that took them well. "Water Dog" also adresses bonding and mental development.

Enjoy

waksupi
12-20-2005, 09:06 PM
Sundog, not only will they chew off the bark, they will eventually make the whole stick disappear! No digestive problem with green wood, it's just fiber.

versifier
12-20-2005, 10:34 PM
A great training aid for a puppy is an older dog that likes puppies and listens well. When he sees the older dog following the commands and getting treats, he will want some, too, and as Labs are generally pretty smart dogs, he'll get the idea pretty quick. This is a big help for field skills, too, not just basic obedience, but it is never a substitute for the most important one-on-one quality puppy time. All lessons learned "in group" need to be followed up soon after to reinforce them.

Blackwater
12-21-2005, 01:14 AM
Anthony, this will go strictly and severely against the grain from what anyone who knows formal dog training will tell you, but I grew up a bird hunter with almost all my dogs retrieving dead birds and bringing them to me. Had a lot of experience training new dogs from an early age, and IMO, dogs are BORN knowing what to do, or either without a lot of liklihood of their ever really being good at it. Mostly, what you need to do is to let the dog train YOU as to what it requires from you to know what to do, and how to discipline it effectively.

I really think the discipline part may well be the hardest, too. One dog I had, a liver spoted pointer, almost had to be given a good spanking before you let him out, just to let him know you were serious about hunting birds that day, and keep him from veering off to chase rabbits. "Aversion therapy" was a must with him. On the other hand, I also had a red setter that you couldn't even raise your voice to, or she'd be so crushed that she'd get to where she just didn't know WHAT to do. Dogs are like humans, and some take to your instruction, and some have to be coerced. YOu just have to figure out which you're dealing with, or something in the middle, and again, let THEM teach YOU.

Most of the hunting part is either there or it'll never be, IMO, and there's little way to really KNOW what you have but to take them afield. That red setter was like a savant. Took 3 years to "train" her (or HER to train ME) but once you got her to do what you wanted, and affirmed that with praise and whatever rewards I could muster up, she'd do that thing THAT way, and ONLY that way from there ever after. Amazing dog, and probably the finest dog I've ever hunted over, too. Aint nothin' like a really good dog! Absolutely NOTHING!

You mainly have to teach them how far you want them to range. We always hunted fairly close, while the style now is for longer ranging "field trial" dogs. IMO, with that kind of hunting, you just miss something that only hunting close provides, but I think I'm in the minority these days.

Then it's mostly a matter of you and the dog working out how to mesh together. I say that because I've never seen a really good dog that didn't have some strong tendencies that differed from other good dogs, and they all do good, just in a different way. Main thing then, is to just work that out between you and that particular individual dog. Without that personal and singluar link, I think hunting with dogs just misses something valuable, that may not be realized until years later. I know when I was coming up, I was just goal oriented, and didn't realize how much my dogs were teaching me about all sorts of things that only now do I think I've come to appreciate. Missing out on that part of it is missing out on a LOT, IMO, but most are so busy these days that they won't put in the time or effort to achieve these things. It's definitely worth every bit of the time and effort, though. Believe me, I know.

A really good "dog man" regards his dogs as friends and companions, not as just tools like hammers or wrenches. There's a link between dog and man, if we'll just let it take place, that is unlike any relationship a man can know with any other entity in this world, and once known, is irreplacable.

This offers few specifics, I know, but if a man can just watch what's going on, figure out why it's happening the way it is, and learn how to relate to the dog so as to bring it more in line with what he wants, something happens that I don't really know how to describe, but it's valuable and worth everything it takes to get to that point. I think it can make a man a better person, a better husband, a better father, employee, and who knows what all else. It's just plain magic, and that's all there is to it, and the only way I know to find it is to just simply go for it and seek it. After all, the Good Book says "Seek and ye shall find," and I've found that covers a lot more ground than I'd ever realized in my younger days.

It's just a matter of learning to relate, and to mesh what you've got inside you with what the dog has inside him or her. Really, it isn't difficult at all, either. It's just something you can't force or make happen. You have to LET it happen, and just work toward it together. It's amazing how any dog with real potential responds to this approach.

I guess maybe you could call me the "Dog Whisperer?" [smilie=l: Anyway, it works, and it works unlike anything I've ever experienced before or since, in any endeavor I've ever undertook. And like I said, it's worth every minute and everything involved. Just makes a man sit and think about what's happening, and how to go about making what he WANTS happen.

I guess you can tell I really like good dogs?

floodgate
12-21-2005, 01:23 AM
Guys:

I'm not a "dog person", but the local fairs have sheepdog trials that are hotly contested, and I've seen some incredible things there. One that comes to mind was the special event when the trainer/handler set up his old retired champion McNab in the "box", and SHE ran a young pup SHE had trained through and cleaned the course, without a hint from the handler. Believe me, that had the audience on its feet!

floodgate

Bret4207
12-23-2005, 12:28 PM
I second "Water Dog" by RIchard Wolters. I've used the basic methods on 2 Labs, a Boykin Spaniel and a mess of other dogs. Although we have 8 dogs now, noe are mine having lost my Boykin to a car a few years ago. The Beagles are sorta my project now. They sure are a different breed compared to Labs and Spaniels. I would also recommend the standard AKC Obeidience course. Teaches YOU that YOU can make the dog behave.