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Marlin Junky
11-22-2008, 07:13 PM
It's been awhile since I posted any .358/.350 results and I had a pretty good range day on Thursday, so here goes:

I shot 3, 5 shot groups through the .358 with the following load and the group posted below is the best of the three. The load details are: SAECO 352 at 247 grains bare; 46 grains of Special Ball-3 (H-380); Federal 210 primers; LBT Soft Blue. The bullets were air cooled, then heat treated at 500F for one hour before quenching in ice water. The result was BHN 25 so I'll need to ad more Sb (i.e., range scap) in order to create harder bullets. Obviously, I still need some adjusting to eliminate flyers but at least I'm getting somewhere now. An after-market barrel for the .350 is on my list for next year. I have a suspicion that SAECO 352 doesn't hold enough lube for extended shooting at over 2100 fps though the Ruger barrels. I will try to size a tiny bit larger by running the air cooled bullets through a .359 Lyman die which may get me .001" over groove (.3585") and then applying the heat treatment.

MJ

NHlever
11-22-2008, 07:22 PM
Whew! For a minute there I was thinking about going outside to see if I could see that M77 going over! :-) Looks like you are getting somewhere with those bullets. Fliers can be a bit of a bother, but sometimes little things like gas checks that don't seat right, or get seated over protruding sprue bumps will do it. The base steers the bullet, and other than air pockets, or otherwise defective boolits, the base is the thing to watch.

Marlin Junky
11-22-2008, 08:03 PM
These bullets were "the-bottom-of-the-barrel" bullets which I had planned to remelt but the bases were fine; i.e., nice and flat with tight GC's. The other 2 groups are somewhat looser (right around 2MOA) with no apparent fliers. I forgot to mention that the range was 100 yards. SAECO 352 is a very good bullet but I wish it had two lube grooves for a total lube weight greater than whatever it holds now.

MJ

shooter93
11-22-2008, 08:32 PM
I shoot the same boolit in a Custom 35 krag which has a bit more capicity than the 358 Winchester. WW's plus 4% tin, heat treated to bhn 22 and lbt blue lube. 16 Twist Douglas pipe, 22 inches long. At 1900 fps it a one hole rifle then things start going south, twist related i'm sure. At 2100-2150 it stll shoots 10 shots in the 1-1-1/2 range which suits me. I have never has any leading at all so I believe the boolit has enough lube for those speeds. I can tell you, using Rem or federal primes and V V 135 powder made a marked difference in accuracy. IMR 3031 would be the second choice but it does crowd a 358 Win. case. I've shot as many as 40 rounds at one time...all I had with me....with no deterioration in accuracy and no leading. V V powders do seems to burn extremely clean.

mike in co
11-22-2008, 08:39 PM
question,,,are you guys saying that with YOUR boolit that 14 twist would be better ? i plan on a 16 twist 358 win on a mauser action but lighter boolits 200---220....have the 210 group buy.

thanks
mike

shooter93
11-22-2008, 08:55 PM
Well Mike...that depends...lol...how's that. I happen to be one of those who has experienced the rpm threshold many times...don't strart that mess up again guys...I shoot a lot of faster than normal twist barrels and without exception they have to shoot cast boolits slower than a slower than normal twist. There are ways around it for sure Mike...harder alloys, lighter boolits etc, but the alloy I mentioned above works very well for hunting, expands but doesn't break up so it's what I like to use. I truly belive that if I went with a slower twist I could bump the velocity up a bit but it suits me fine as is. Don't know if that helps at all but there it is.

runfiverun
11-22-2008, 09:24 PM
the 14 twist will help you pick up some velocity.
but a 16 is where i start to question whether the 358 has enough case to push the boolit fast enough to take advantage of it.
i am still looking at molds for my 358 and was almost decided on the saeco but maybe now i will see what nei has.
i can leave lube outta grooves but i can't add grooves.

Marlin Junky
11-23-2008, 02:38 AM
My Ballard rifled 336A in .35 Rem will shoot SAECO 352 into 1.5MOA at approx. 2100 fps (using a slightly faster ball powder than above) for at least 50 rounds with my homemade lube and the bullets don't need to be super hard either (BHN 14 to 15 will suffice). The Ballard rifled 336A has a 24" barrel with a 16" twist and 7, .005" deep grooves.

MJ

Bass Ackward
11-23-2008, 07:00 AM
Well Mike...that depends...lol...how's that. I happen to be one of those who has experienced the rpm threshold many times...don't strart that mess up again guys...I shoot a lot of faster than normal twist barrels and without exception they have to shoot cast boolits slower than a slower than normal twist. There are ways around it for sure Mike...harder alloys, lighter boolits etc, but the alloy I mentioned above works very well for hunting, expands but doesn't break up so it's what I like to use. I truly belive that if I went with a slower twist I could bump the velocity up a bit but it suits me fine as is. Don't know if that helps at all but there it is.


You will find that if you use Unique, your RPM level is lower. People realize that going to harder bullets beats RPMs. Most guys readily accept this, but don't continue it on out. Strange, since Quigley Down Under is on about once a month on average and I know everyone's seen it. The old addage is to use the longest barrel possible for cast.

If you can shoot RL15 and burn it, your RPM limit will be higher. Problem is getting the velocity without the barrel length. RL15 requires 20" of bullet travel in a barrel to do well. (24" barrel)

If you could shoot 4831 and generate the velocity, you will go higher yet. You need about a 30" barrel for that.

The RPM limit for you is dictated by case volume and 22".

rhead
11-23-2008, 07:23 AM
I was getting the same type of group when I was developing a high velocity load for my hornet. What worked for me was to heat the bullets (after sizing as large as would chamber) with the bullets standing on their tails in a small rack, and then quench. This eliminated uneven cooling of the bullets that were touching each other. It won't work of course if you are beyond the rpm or some other threshold but it may push the threshold out a little further. It worked for the problem that I was having. I was apparentaly sometimes getting bullets that were a litte softer on on side than on the other. Keep looking the group is showing a lot of promise.

Larry Gibson
11-23-2008, 01:44 PM
runfiverun and Bass are both essentially correct. With the softer alloy and the case capacity the RPM threshold is lower as accelleration is faster to achieve the higher velocity. The enertia of the heavier bullet/softer alloy is causing imbalances in the bullets (not very big imbalances with that kind of accuracy!) that the RPM overcome above 1900 fps. The solution, given the barrel/cartridge on hand, is to try a lighter bullet of proper design/fit with the slowest possible burning powder that gives 95-100% loading density with consistent ignition.

Hope shooter93 realizes that many would give their eye teeth if their faster twist rilfes would shoot cast into 1 - 1.5" groups with "I've shot as many as 40 rounds at one time...all I had with me....with no deterioration in accuracy and no leading" at 2100 - 2150 fps!

Larry Gibson

PatMarlin
11-23-2008, 03:22 PM
My Ballard rifled 336A in .35 Rem will shoot SAECO 352 into 1.5MOA at approx. 2100 fps (using a slightly faster ball powder than above) for at least 50 rounds with my homemade lube and the bullets don't need to be super hard either (BHN 14 to 15 will suffice). The Ballard rifled 336A has a 24" barrel with a 16" twist and 7, .005" deep grooves.

MJ

MJ- what's your starting loads for that round?

Marlin Junky
11-23-2008, 06:32 PM
MJ- what's your starting loads for that round?

The load is 38 to 39 grains of DP-74 which is claimed to be 3% slower than AA2520. You can decide from that info what your starting load should be.

MJ

runfiverun
11-23-2008, 09:56 PM
the slower powders do help too but the problem i ran into with them was my muzzle pressure was high.
they also held high enough pressure in the bbl to dry out any lube that was in it.
this is why [i think] you/i can only hold velocity with 4-5 shots.

i came up with this by shooting a soft wet lube then when i got the wet star.
i switched to high vel loads accuracy was outstanding at 2300+ but after the 5 shot group
my bbl was extremely dry.i then run the "wet" lube again for7 to 10 shots till the star appeared again,and repeat.
[i had excellent accuracy, far less then 1" at 100,]
and used the best reloading practices i know of.
15 best cases out of all i had on hand. measuring, weighing, trimming , fireforming, partial neck sizing, and hand seating into chamber.
most of a days work, to weigh and inspect the best boolits, and cases.and load them.
it was cool as hell as there were four of the club regulars there to see this, and they are all casters and lead shooters.
however this was just an experiment but a valuable learning experience.
as my criteria is much like larry's is i like 8 to 10 shot groups and re-lubing the bbl halfway through the group is cheating[well not really] but it ain't what i want.

shooter93
11-23-2008, 10:28 PM
Larry...it is a very good shooting rifle one of the very few I own that will shoot cast like that. To be honest I'd have to say they 40 shot group was closer to 2 inches looking it over...I didn't measure but that's still excellent shooting. I do believe it because of several factors. keep in mind that this is a full blown custom hunting rifle. It is on a Krag action but we came up with angood way to bed them. The left sideplate ic covered with the stock not cut out like the originals making the stock flex. There are no barrel bands and the barrel is floated. It's a Douglas barrel and only 22 inches long. The reamer was made for a dummy round I made up for it. A 359 boolit is what I shoot, a 360 is tight and a 361 will not chamber so it's tight. Anything over the 2100-2150 fps goes south quickly and like i said at 1900 it shoots better but I only ever fired 10 shots at that velocity. The V V powder is very clean burning which probably contributes too.
I fired an huge number of rounds coming up with this combination, powders, primers, boolits etc. It shoots J-bullets extremely well. We actually bulit two of these rifles at the same time. haven't fired the other one with cast at all but it shoots J- bullets the same and with the same load...same everything...how often does that happen????? There is actually 2 barrels for this rifle. the first barrel shot J-bullets well but cast was like throwing stones. I then got another Douglas barrel and had it chambered with the custom reamer. To say I'm happy with the project would be an understatement...it's a keeper for sure.
I am a believer in the rpm threshold and i didn't expect to get above 18-1900 fps with a 16 twist barrel, got lucky I guess. Also....below bhn 22 it went south too. straight ww's was back to throwing rocks again.

Marlin Junky
11-24-2008, 01:39 PM
I am a believer in the rpm threshold and i didn't expect to get above 18-1900 fps with a 16 twist barrel, got lucky I guess. Also....below bhn 22 it went south too. straight ww's was back to throwing rocks again.

What is the groove depth on your Douglas barrel? Can I assume it's a hammer forged (not cut-rifled) barrel?

MJ

Pat I.
11-24-2008, 02:32 PM
Douglas's are button rifled

Marlin Junky
11-24-2008, 03:17 PM
Douglas's are button rifled

So the grooves are pretty shallow? How about the number of grooves... 6?

MJ

Larry Gibson
11-24-2008, 05:27 PM
Shooter93

Have you tried a lighter weight bullet? The 247? Saeco may be too heavy for that twist. Sounds like a sweet custom Krag you built. Yes, 40 shots still under 2" is pretty darn good considering the 2150 fps and softer maleable alloy for a hunting bullet. My 14" twist Shilen barrel shoots 2" at 2200 with the RCBS 35-200-FN bullet. I am about maxed out velocity wise with it though unless I go to a faster powder which is going in the wrong direction to keep accelleration down.

My Shilen barrel has 8 lands and grooves and they are very close to .004" deep.

Larry Gibson

Pat I.
11-24-2008, 05:43 PM
Have to ask S93 how many grooves but I'm sure it's either 4 or 6. I'd imagine it has the standard .004 rifling which I don't think is too shallow.

shooter93
11-24-2008, 09:19 PM
Standard 6 groove 4 thou. deep rifling. I haven't tried a lighter boolit Larry but I believe you're right. I wanted to shoot 250's so I have two molds...the 352 and a LBT lfn. It shoots ok but the saeco wins out. I will say that of the number of barrels I've scoped from all makers Douglas is the smoothest from the start and it's readily apparent. like I said if I push it any further it goes south quickly. It shoots J-bullets real well and they have to jump a country mile...another one of those things that shouldn't work. Another thing I forgot to mention which may or may not have made a difference...the barrel doesn't "thread straight into the reciever" like a typical krag. The action was trued and there is a shoulder on the barrel like most normal rifles. It's defininately handy having a good friend who is also a top flight gun maker. It was built to very close tolerences. I think it's a combination of many little things.