Swaging a lead bullet to take a gascheck

[Swagerman]

Swaging lead bullets to take a gascheck has been a difficult project for me, can't seem to get the knack for doing it right.

I succeeded in reaming an ejector stem base to form a rather snug but not real tight fit. Wanted them to fit tighter like a regular gascheck bullet mould turns them out.

Consequently the gaschecks will sometimes fall off or stay in the lubesizer press when trying to seat them tighter.

Another thing is the extremely thin walls the reaming left on the ejector stem. This setup doesn't look like it will last very long as its fragillity of thin wall metal.

Perhaps I need another approach, maybe a bigger die punch set up...but how?

I'm ready to accept any suggestions if someone has been there done that.

Is it going to be OK to seat the gascheck in a non tight form on the cast lead bullet, has anyone done this practice of just placing the gascheck on the base of the bullet loosely and seat and crimp it in the brass case.

I'm experimenting with .44 caliber right now.



Swagerman

[beagle]

I've had some experience with this subject. Orygun Mark and I batted this around all one winter back and forth from Kentucky to Oregon via e-mail.

It all boils down to having a drawer full of the right diameter sizing dies. A nose first rig makes it easier. Or, if you're a machinist, Mark's solution works better.

My experiences have been primarily with .358" diameter bullets, .258" diameter bullets and to some extent, the .458" bullets.

The .25s are relatively easy. You size the base band in a .243" sizing die, use a 6.5mm GC and size as normal. This was on the 25-85-CM for the .25-20.

The .35s are not too hard either. There, I sized down the base band to .355" and then to either .350" or .352" depending on whether I was using the Hornady .35 GCs or the old .38 Lyman Ideals. Then, seat the GC and size. Here, I was running 358430s (195 grain version) and 35875s in a .35 Remington.

Now, making a GC design out of a 457122HP takes a lot of patience. Here you go .454/.450/.446/.439/.434/.429/and finally .425". The length tends to grow by about 1/8" during all of these sizing operations but it works all right.

Now, Orygun Mark has a simpler solution and it does it in one pass but takes a special die. I'll let him expound on it and explain how the die is made.

Then, there's the third solution. That's to punch a #10 hole in the center of the check, anneal the checks and then, during casting, drop warm checks in the mould and cast through the hole in the check. The lead forces the GC up against the sprue plate and you get a nice flat surface. A side affect is the the ragged edges in the center of the check are embedded in the lead and they won't come off. Works pretty slick.

In reality, GCing a PB bullet is a valid solution in some cases and produces good accuracy. Kind of gives you a "warm fuzzy" to pull it off./beagle

[Swagerman]

Thank you, Beagle, good imput on the GC thingy.

I was dinking around with this swaging die ejector stem this afternoon and discovered to my amazment I was trying to fit a .44 caliber Lyman GC to cast lead bullet that was sized to .429 dieameter...no wonder the darn GC wouldn't tighten down on the bullets base...duh!

You have to use a bullet that hasn't been sized after coming out of its mould. :groner:

I solved the under sized bullets by punching out some thin paper with a wad cutter punch I made in .45 caliber. This slightly oversize round paper is stuck to the base of the pre-cast lead bullet and the .44 caliber GC is set in the lubesizer press. Gently line everything up with it to be seated in GC and seat the paper and bullet tightly in the GC.

Blimey, it works.

But I still have this problem of how long the ejector stem is going to last as wall lips are really thin where it contacts the base of a lead bullet.


Swagerman

[StarMetal]

If you're going to go that punch a hole in the gascheck and put it in the mould, I'd sucggest sizing the gascheck first as the mould may not close.

Joe

[crazy mark]

Swagerman,
I made a die that is stepped that fits my Lyman or RCBS sizers. The Die takes a .359 -.360 bullet and swages the base down to the proper diameter for a 35 cal gas check. I have this set up so a 35875 will go down far enough that the nose doesn't get bumped when I use the right nose punch. I then lube, size and install the gas check in the normal fashion. This can be done by making whatever size die you make. The reason I chose to make a die instead of reaming out a smaller die is the fact mine have no holes and I found the bullets tend to expand into the holes and it makes it hard to get the bullet out of the die. Mark

[Swagerman]

Swagerman,
I made a die that is stepped that fits my Lyman or RCBS sizers. The Die takes a .359 -.360 bullet and swages the base down to the proper diameter for a 35 cal gas check. I have this set up so a 35875 will go down far enough that the nose doesn't get bumped when I use the right nose punch. I then lube, size and install the gas check in the normal fashion. This can be done by making whatever size die you make. The reason I chose to make a die instead of reaming out a smaller die is the fact mine have no holes and I found the bullets tend to expand into the holes and it makes it hard to get the bullet out of the die. Mark

================================================== =======

Mark, I really like your idea but I don't have a good enough lathe to do that kind of work.

Last night I was trying to make a few more swaged GC base bottom bullets and sure enough the freaken thin wall of the bored out section of the ejector stem collasped on one side. [smilie=b:

Could you email me a drawing or some pictures of your die, then I could get with my area machinest and have him make one for me in .44 caliber. And if it don't cost an arm and a leg maybe make one in .45 caliber.

Your method sounds like the way to go with this project.

Thanks for any help. :bigsmyl2:

Jim aka Swagerman

[beagle]

Joe, so far, I've had no probems using just factory annealed GCs. They drop right in the base band groove. Now, the 35875 mould I have has a slight BB and so does one of my old 457122s so I have to size the checks to get them to work so therefore I don't use them much.

The normal PB bullets let the checks drop right in and if they're annealed, the lead adheres pretty good. Any ah ****s! are dropped back in the pot and the GC is recycled.

I have this spring loaded punch I made up and it's just a press stroke to do these in a consistent manner and the punched check is automatically ejected from the punch on the upstroke.

It's great on the PB Lyman 457 series and the 358430. I've tried GC'd 358429s in the .357 and they shoot all right but the difference is not worth the effort and GC cost./beagle



If you're going to go that punch a hole in the gascheck and put it in the mould, I'd sucggest sizing the gascheck first as the mould may not close.

Joe

[beagle]

Mark's die is the way to go if you want to do very many of these. Worth the effort./beagle


================================================== =======

Mark, I really like your idea but I don't have a good enough lathe to do that kind of work.

Last night I was trying to make a few more swaged GC base bottom bullets and sure enough the freaken thin wall of the bored out section of the ejector stem collasped on one side. [smilie=b:

Could you email me a drawing or some pictures of your die, then I could get with my area machinest and have him make one for me in .44 caliber. And if it don't cost an arm and a leg maybe make one in .45 caliber.

Your method sounds like the way to go with this project.

Thanks for any help. :bigsmyl2:

Jim aka Swagerman

[45 2.1]

Applying Freechecks when your sizing and lubeing the bullet will get you the same place and is easier.

[crazy mark]

Swagerman,
Will send you drawings with-in the next few days. They aren't too hard to make. I have a mini lathe and it is accurate. Mark

[Swagerman]

Thank you, Mark. My oldest son is named Mark, he lives in Fairfax Virginia.

I look forward at your convienance on the pictures or drawings you will send.

Tried to re-do the swage die ejector stem to make a GC punch, it just keeps getting shorter and shorter. This is not a good way to make bullet bases take a GC.

Jim

[crazy mark]

swagerman,
You have a PM. It has all the dimensions. Not much to take a picture of. I'm always trying new ideas as I fix things by trade and am doing more teaching than fixing lately. Making is my frustration release. Mark

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/0EC721E256DE02F/standard.jpg

The above left is a Saeco tapered plain bases slug of .333" diameter I bought some time back to use in the 8x56R Steyr. It did okay at 11 - 1200 fps but I wanted to try it a bit faster.

Put a 35 cal GC on it and ran it base first through a .332" push through die I'd made. I don't think you are interested in doing THIS per se, but just thought I'd mention it. It worked as the boolit was thick and stout enough to stand the effort.

................Buckshot

[Swagerman]

Buckshot, I once did a simular thing using a .44 caliber gascheck in a .358 lubesizer die. This was for the reverse HB wad cutter .358 bullet turned around backward and seat that .44 GC onto its head -- thus, giving you an awsome HP lead bullet that can do some damage.

Maybe I'll try some .45 caliber GC seating them in a .429 or .430 lubesizer die.

On the .358 bullets had to make an ABS plastic ring to put in the sizer die to keep things concentric. Otherwise the GC got seated lopsided.

Thanks for reminding me about using bigger GC.


Swagerman

[StarMetal]

Buckshot,

That bullet looks like it grew alot taking that gascheck and trip through the sizer die.

Joe

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,

That bullet looks like it grew alot taking that gascheck and trip through the sizer die.

Joe

It was run up through a .332" die afterwards.

..............Buckshot

[Swagerman]

Holy cow! The answer was right there in the title of my thread...


I was amazed that sometimes the answer can be in such an obvious place.

I don't know if I made this clear or not but I'm talking about putting .44 caliber gaschecks on non-gascheck bullets.

Don't need any oversized 45 caliber gaschecks, don't need any special push through dies (though a darn good idea especially for rifle bullets) all I need was to use a SWAGE DIE that has the rounded ogive at the bullets top.

Just adjust the die up into the press until it gets a very slight taper on the bullets base...(bullet is run backward up into the die body until it barely touches the slanting ogive.

You'll know you got it right when you can barely get the gascheck lips over the bullet's base, then put in lubesizer press and ram it down to seat the gascheck onto the bullets base.

I tried this with hard cast and soft to medium cast lead bullets...and it works like a charm.

In this case I was using a C-H .44 caliber swage die (with rounded ogive) and Lyman .44 caliber gaschecks. Plus, the final step was to use the lubesizer press to finish attaching the gascheck to the bullet's base.

Try it, it works.


Jim

[Swagerman]

Below is shown cast bullet, middle is cast bullet that has been run through the lubesizer and taper applied to bullet base (backward) in swage die with ogive. Then gas check and bullet joined together after seating in lube sizer press or swageing press.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/P80200353bulletsshowingGCtapercr-1.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/P5040031650rtpnon-gascheckseating.jpg

Jim