Red Dot - subsonic 30-30 loads

[Terminatorret]

I just decided to contribute some load data that I’ve been working. I don’t need full power 30-30 for my particular local needs. Subsonic rounds don’t travel as far, are easier on my ears, are plenty lethal for my 40-100 yard open shots on my land. Please, I don’t want this to tun into a “not enough knock down power…that’s inhumane to hunt with” discussion. I just want to share my data for those of you who may have wanted information on such a cartridge load.

Rifle – Savage 340E (1:12 twist, 22" barrel) with Bushnell Sportview 4-12x40 (Japan)
Chrono – Oehler 35P set at 10 feet
Powder – new stock Alliant Red Dot
Primers – Winchester WLR Large Standard Rifle
Brass – mixed
Bullets – Missouri Bullet Co. 165gr .311 #4 Whitetail (with no gas check)
and Hunter’s Supply (RCBS 180?) 193gr .311 GCFP (with no gas check)
Reloading equipment – all Lee dies, Lee Factory Crimp, manual Redding scale
Minimum shots fired - 10

Here’s my bottom-line subsonic results:

For 165gr with 5.5 grains Red Dot (estimated BC=0.235):
Highest recorded velocity: 1106 fps
Lowest recorded velocity: 1085 fps
Extreme velocity spread: 21 fps
Mean or Average velocity: 1095 fps
Standard Deviation: 8 fps

For 193gr with 6.1 grains Red Dot (estimated BC=0.255):
Highest recorded velocity: 1110 fps
Lowest recorded velocity: 1087 fps
Extreme velocity spread: 23 fps
Mean or Average velocity: 1099 fps
Standard Deviation: 7 fps

Hope this is useful to some of you.
Semper fi.

[lar45]

Those are some very low Standard deviations.
What kind of groups are you getting?

[Winger Ed.]

Do a search for 'The Load', or 'Red Dot rifle loads'.

There's several old articles by, and about the guru that developed it.
Its some pretty interesting reading.

[rking22]

How were the groups? I had good luck with similar amount of Red Dot and a Seaco 140 gr pb in 3030 Win 94. Need to try it with 31141 now!

[Terminatorret]

My standard deviations were direct from my Oehler 35P printouts. Yes, I was pleased, however I was VERY precise with my manual powder measurement. My groups were so-so...but it was a windy, overcast day here in East Texas. I didn't bring my targets inside, but under 2 inch groups. My target was a precisely measured 67 yards away...hitting center mass at 67 yards will give me a plus/minus one inch impact out to 77 yards with an 1100 fps projectile according to the "Maximum Point Blank Range Calculator" at http://www.shooterscalculator.com/. Projectile drop will be 4.5" at 100 yards. I can live with that.

[richhodg66]

Those do seem like some very low standard deviations, sounds like you did a great job loading.

Those little Savage 340s really are neat rifles, much better than they've been given credit for.

[Terminatorret]

I'm hoping that "starting subsonic" and "remaining subsonic" will give me an accuracy advantage ballisically by avoiding the turbulance associated with the bullet transitioning from above, to below the sound barrier. During the transion (supersonic to subsonic), buffeting occurs which can cause projectile wabble. Don't know how much, but just another excuse for me to remain subsonic!
BTW, here in East Texas with all the trees, I'll be lucky to see a 100 yard shot. I've cleared pasture, but still only see a 50-60 yard shot at most. My "rifle range lane" is cleared to about 140 yards for shooting purposes, but deer and hogs don't hang-out there.

[djryan13]

Do a search for 'The Load', or 'Red Dot rifle loads'.

There's several old articles by, and about the guru that developed it.
Its some pretty interesting reading.

Careful... as I recall 30-30 doesn’t meet the size criteria in that article for “The Load”.

[Terminatorret]

Correct. "The Load" calls for 13gr Red Dot as a universal load in higher SAAMI pressure calibers...no, no, no...not for 30-30. And definately not subsonic. Cut that in half...that's the velocities I'm working. Heavy and slow is my creedo for this locale and my circumstances.

[Iowa Fox]

I've been saying for a long time that one of the greatest benefits of reloading is the subsonic loads we create. Can't go to town and buy those.

[jimkim]

One of my favorite 30-30 loads is 6.0gr of Red Dot/Promo under an Ideal 308241 152gr RN PB boolit. I get 1100-1150 fps with my 336.

Sent from my VS880 using Tapatalk

[toallmy]

I do something very similar with unique . It's a lot of fun and a pound of powder goes a long way .

[richhodg66]

Careful... as I recall 30-30 doesn’t meet the size criteria in that article for “The Load”.

Yep. I see this all the time, everybody thinks that 13 grains of Red Dot is universal and don't even think about it. Personally, it seems too hot to me even in .30-06 for best accuracy, don't even want to think about that much fast powder in a .30-30, especially with heavy bullets.

[richhodg66]

I have found 700X to be good powder in such loads as well.

[randyrat]

I need to get back to my 30-30 and work up Sub Sonic loads again.
This thread reminds me the fun I had finding the best accurate subsonic loads in the 30-30 using pistol powders. I'm going a bit heavier though,( cast real soft to make them heavier) 180 gr Lee cast soft- C309-170 F. Seems I did get some loads to work very good without GCs, hopefully I saved those notes.

[charlie b]

If you want to find some more low vel loads for various cartridges....

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

I use Blue Dot in my .308, just because I have a bunch I don't use in anything else. An interesting thing I found after I got a chronograph is that my loads were in the transition zone when it was colder outside. They did well out to 100 and sometimes 200yd. I ended up dropping them to under 1000fps (7gn Blue Dot with 180gn Lee bullets), and that is still in the lower range of the transition zone when it is cold outside. The nice thing is you don't get the 'crack' until you get up closer to full supersonic.

I also found that my reject bullets did very well at the low velocities. I have quite a few groups well under 1" at 100yd. My theory is that the lower spin rate means the bullet defects don't affect the flight as much.

And these 'pop gun' loads are just silly fun to shoot :)

[ABJ]

Around 5.5 to 6.0 700x is also my preferred load only because I have more of it than Red Dot. I'm using 150 and 170 boolits. My Winchester 94 is zeroed on the highest iron sight setting on the 700x load and the lowest setting with my deer load at 100. Makes it easy to shoot both with the same gun.
Tony

[GhostHawk]

I have found 4.6 gr of Red Dot to 6 grains to be very accurate.

The 4.6 gr load I use the Lee .314 90 gr TC TL boolit sized to .311.

The 6 grain load I use the Lee .312 185 gr gc.

Both were very accurate, quiet, I consider the 90 gr load a small game load for rabbits, grouse, squirrel.
The other for anything I want very dead very quietly.

Both work well in my Win 94 AE post 64, and my Handi rifle single shot with a Truglo 2x Red Dot. I am considerably more accurate with the single shot. It stacks them up nicely at 100y.

[Three44s]

Question here: Do you fellows pre-position your powder for each shot as in raising the muzzle to settle the powder against the primer?

Three44s

[Terminatorret]

I personally have never thought pre-positioning powder was necessary with Red Dot. I don't use any filler, either. I have never experienced any problems with the rounds igniting.

[Dapaki]

I love it! I have used Red Dot in all my rifle cartridges (except for the new 350LGD) but have used a little more, closer to 'The Load' type weights. I admit that I have not done the research on this but are there any concerns about detonation with Red Dot at very small loads in large cartridges?

[gumbo333]

I've enjoyed low velocity loads in both my 30/30 and 45/70. Have never pre-positioned my powder. Nor have I found that a magnum primer is any better than a standard primer. What I would like to find are some heavy .311 boolits, 190gr or 200gr. I don't cast but purchase. I sold both my Marlins, now have a Henry and it much prefers a .311 bullet. .310 not too bad but .309 you need to paper patch. I'm to old for that project. Plumbers Teflon tape isn't too bad if you are really carefull.

[Dapaki]

I've enjoyed low velocity loads in both my 30/30 and 45/70.....

What load did you use in the 4570? My wife refuses to shoot it due to the recoil, a reduced load sure would be nice.

[scattershot]

Great info. Thanks for posting.

ETA: I use that load myself, with no special accuracy techniques used in loading, and get around 3/4” groups at 50 yards. (2 holes touching, one slightly away. Scoped Marlin 336, from a bench, using Hunter Supply 165 grain gas check boolits.

[richhodg66]

What load did you use in the 4570? My wife refuses to shoot it due to the recoil, a reduced load sure would be nice.

I shot some .45-70s yesterday with some cast bullets that weighed about 340 grains and 12 grains of Unique. Shot better than I can at 100 yards and recoil was very mild.

[Terminatorret]

If you're looking for 190+gr 30-30 .311 cast bullets, check out Hunter's Supply. Prices are very reasonble...made even better by FREE SHIPPING.

[Jack Stanley]

Thanks for the information , I don't use the 30 WCF near as much as I should but I make up for that by using gallery loads in the .223 and 30-06 .

Jack

[bedbugbilly]

I had excellent luck with my 30-30s - Winky 94 and Marlin 336SC - with Red Dot. I tried a few other powders but still kept going back to RD - light loads - I don't have my data sheets here with me in AZ, but less that you int as far as load. I uses everything - 90 gr, 115 gr - etc. up to 150 grain boolits - alox and paste wax tumble lubed - never any leading issues and while most of my shooting was at 25 yards - 50 yards dud to the limitations of where I was shooting, my groups were always good for me and my eyesight - I'm sure others could have done better. I sold the Winchester and Marlin as I thinned things out and will eventually find another 30-30 when I have time to look to shoot withth reduced loads. I passed on a Savage like yours a few years back and ache kicked myself ever since - nice little rifles. I did keep all of my 30-30 things - dies, brass, etc. so I have a legitimate excuse to get another 30-30! I love that cartridge!

[Dapaki]

I shot some .45-70s yesterday with some cast bullets that weighed about 340 grains and 12 grains of Unique. Shot better than I can at 100 yards and recoil was very mild.

I don't have any Unique, I don't care for it. Any experience with Red Dot loads in the 4570?

[RU shooter]

I've shot quite a few of these kind of loads in different calibers . I've mainly used Bullseye and W231 as Reddot don't meter well for me in my measure . All three work well in about the same loading range 4.5-6 grs with normal weight cast bullets .

[relic]

Thank you, this is exactly how a test like this should be presented. You gave ALL the info needed.

[Dapaki]

I've shot quite a few of these kind of loads in different calibers . I've mainly used Bullseye and W231 as Reddot don't meter well for me in my measure . All three work well in about the same loading range 4.5-6 grs with normal weight cast bullets .

Nice! Ill start at 4.5 and see what the groups are like.

[relic]

I do have one question, did you use a filler? How did you manage such low deviations? Did you weigh each powder charge? Hmm, one ?, guess I cant count.

[Dapaki]

I do have one question, did you use a filler? How did you manage such low deviations? Did you weigh each powder charge? Hmm, one ?, guess I cant count.

There is a gun shop where I used to live and they have an exploded lever action on the wall above the reloading section with a sign above it that says "Filler is the Killer". I am sure there are a LOT of guys and gals here that can explain the pressure wave and all that stuff but I wont load if I have to fill the case.

[Terminatorret]

I do have one question, did you use a filler? How did you manage such low deviations? Did you weigh each powder charge? Hmm, one ?, guess I cant count.

No filler, no tipping the barrel upwards. I used a vintage Redding manual scale and did weigh each charge individually...some of them twice when I discovered that I had inadvertanly bumped the small counterpoise off my 6.1 grain setting.
Time consuming? Yes, but I'm getting faster. However, since the nation is on quarantine lockdown, I have the time!

[Dapaki]

No filler, no tipping the barrel upwards. I used a vintage Redding manual scale and did weigh each charge individually...some of them twice when I discovered that I had inadvertanly bumped the small counterpoise off my 6.1 grain setting.
Time consuming? Yes, but I'm getting faster. However, since the nation is on quarantine lockdown, I have the time!

Thank you once again, I get to work from home tomorrow and will give this a shot!

[gumbo333]

Terminatorret - thanks, I may give them a try. Dapati - the gmdr low velocity web site is your friend for the 45/70, 30/30 and many more. You need to use slow, safe, carefull loading practices. I also weigh each load separately on a beam. I now use an older Pacific/ Hornady, the notches on the beam are deeper than Lyman or RCBS so the counterpoise doesn't slip off as easily. Not being too clumsy sure helps.

[Dapaki]

Terminatorret - thanks, I may give them a try. Dapati - the gmdr low velocity web site is your friend for the 45/70, 30/30 and many more. You need to use slow, safe, carefull loading practices. I also weigh each load separately on a beam. I now use an older Pacific/ Hornady, the notches on the beam are deeper than Lyman or RCBS so the counterpoise doesn't slip off as easily. Not being too clumsy sure helps.

Gumbo, that site is perfect for my needs, thank you. 9-13gr is my Huckleberry!

[richhodg66]

There is a sticky about the use of fillers that Larry Gibson outlines what is and isn't good to do. That said, for these light loads of fast powders, fillers would be a bad idea, but they have their place.

[jimb16]

I use a 150 gr. Loverin design with a gas check for my light .30-30 loads. Very accurate bullet. I haven't loaded that light, but I'll give it a try. I might also try the 240 gr boat tail that I cast for the .300 BLK. That should work well in a long barrel at subsonic velocities.

[Outpost75]

Great thread!

The .30-30 is one of my favorites. I use the plainbased Accurate31-155D cast 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals with 5 grains of either Bullseye, Red Dot, 700-X, TiteGroup, Trailboss, WST or 452AA. No filler needed. I adjust powder charge to fall into the range of 1080 +/-30 fps in the rifle used. I shoot the same load in 94 Winchesters, Marlins, Savage 340s, etc.

[djryan13]

I debated getting my Winchester threaded a couple years ago. Instead I did a 45LC Rossi. Maybe I will need to rethink.

[CGT80]

I played with red dot, 231, and trailboss for my 1973 win 94 30-30 (my grandfather's first deer gun). It did ok with the lighter loads, but I compete in lever action silhouette and need a little thump for the non regulation bases our targets sit on, plus this rifle seems to like higher velocities.

My go to mould for 30-06 and 30-30 is the NOE saeco #315 GC. I run a 2 cavity brass mold in the automated casting machine that I built.

The light loads are very enjoyable and I ended up with Herco for the 30-30. When I got up to around 11.0 grains it was just too much for such a fast powder and the barrel would heat up and point of impact changed greatly (vertically) over a set of 10 animals. While I considered A5744 (it is great for medium loads, 1200 to 2000 fps in my 460 mag revolver), 2400, and a couple others, many people loved 4895 for cast boolits. It is what I use for full power rifle loads and also reduced loads in the 30-06. 30.0 grains under a 150 grain j word in the 30-06 packs a punch on steel plates but saves the shoulder and ears (I always use double ear pro, but am sensitive).

19.0 grains of 4895 under a 175 gc fp for the 30-30 packs a punch for knocking down the pigs at 80 yards, is much nicer on my shoulder than full power j word loads, and it is the most consistent so far. I routinely place in the top 4-5 for our little 16-20 person match and have plenty of wins. We shoot a half size ram at 110 yards, which has a body of 7" tall in the center, with the horns sticking up past that. With peep sights and no support, standing, it does pretty well.

The 45/70 is similar to the 460 mag revolver case and I have shot a 45/70 with trailboss, which is what I use for light loads in the 460. A 45 270 SAA HP MP molds boolit runs around 1,000 fps with 11 grains of trailgoss, in the 460. It feels like a 38 spl. 5744 rifle powder is extremely versatile, but too expensive for loads that TB will handle. It is intended for reduced rifle loads.

My grandfather always wanted to load as hot as possible, even for target shooting. With my body issues, I only lasted one 40 round match with his 30-30 handloads. It killed my shoulder and was less accurate than the lighter loads. Handloading and casting is perfect for making shooting as enjoyable and economical as possible. That is one of the reasons I bought the 45cal 460 mag instead of the 500 magnum. It is fun to wake up the range once in a while, but I never intended to run only full power loads. The x frame is a beautiful gun and I shoot the same targets as the lever action match, hitting chickens at 100 yards with iron sights and the rams at 110 yards...........sometimes irritating the lever shooters practicing because they were struggling with a long gun while I was nailing them with my light and mid loads from a hand cannon.

Shooting handloads at 10 cents per round vs. $1 per round store bought ammo....and having fun...priceless.

[GhostHawk]

With Red Dot and the fast powders less tends to be more.

The slow powders like full cases and long barrels. (If you need to go fast)
I'll admit fast is easy.

Slow works also however if you take some time to learn the rainbow, make good notes. Maybe even tape a crib sheet on the stock as to how much drop you can expect at different ranges. Then it is just a matter of experience getting the ranges right. 185 to 200 gr cast bullet is not going to stop till it hits something.

What that something is depends on how much time you put into it. But comparing 55 gr loads of slow powder to 4-6 gr loads of fast. You can burn a lot of fast powder for penny's a load. At 7 grains there is a thousand loads. Figure 25.00$ per pound that is 2.5 cents per shot. At 55 gr of slow powder you get 157 rounds per pound. That is 54 and a half cents EACH.

I know where I lean, YMMV.

Just remember the vast amount of buffalo killed were killed with large slow moving lead bullets at long ranges.
Mass + momentum is your friend.

[greenwart]

I had recently picked up a Lee 309-200 molds and cast up a couple hundred. So I might try your 6.1g load. It drops a 196g bullet. The dilemma is to use a gas check or not. I have never had much success using a GC bullet without a gas check. Also might powder coat some. I too am a big 30-30 bolt action fan.

[Terminatorret]

I inadvertantly neglected to mention my lube for the cast bullets I shoot. Both bullets come prelubed from the companies (the Hunter's Supply 193gr bullets are designed for gas checks...but I don't add them). I guess I'm still a little "gun shy" about potential leading problems since I don't use gas checks. Therefore, I tumble lube all my bullets with a recipe of 40% XLox, 40% Johnson's paste wax and 20% mineral spirits. I'm not sure if all the additional lubrication effort on my part is really needed or provides any additional anti-leading protection, but I haven't had any leading at all. And some of my early rounds were chrono-ing well over 1200fps.
I'm sure someone with more experience can advise me on whether the tumble lube is just a waste of my time, or is really helpful.
I read somewhere that gas checks aren't really needed sub-1400fps.

[gumbo333]

Terminatorret I've been coating all my purchased lubed boolits with BLL for years. So easy to do. Never a bit of leading and your barrel stays so clean. Does anyone wipe your barrel with Johnsons liquid wax(or similar) after shooting?

[PAndy]

My Winchester 94 stabilizes the lee 150 FP pretty well at subsonic speeds. The Lyman 173 fp shoots decent but at 100yds the holes are a little bit oval. I was hoping to shoot subsonic 198 grain bullets (rcbs 180 fp) but my rifle says no. Using Titegroup and wst right now. American select seems good for this also but my supply is low. Subsonic rifle loading is not a good idea with jacketed bullets, in my view. Weird things happen.

[fecmech]

My 30-30 is a Savage 340. Using Bullseye in the 5-7 gr range it gives 1100-1300fps with single digit sd's for 10 shot strings. Accuracy with the Lyman 130 plain base carbine bullet is in the 2" range @ 100yds. The Lee AK 155gr bullet without the gc runs in the 3" range. Red Dot loads of the same grain wt give the same velocities but slightly larger groups with larger SD's (in the teens). I load on a turret press with the Lee collet die just like pistol cartridges turning the turret for each round. Quick,easy and no messy lube.

[Alferd Packer]

Get a collar button mould, 130 grain in 45/70.
Saves lead, quiet when seated deeply in case with tiny amounts of Bullseye or Red Dot.
Also, lite loads using paper patches. 45 revolver bullets in the 45/70.
Even wax bullets, primer powered or hot glue bullets, primer powered or adding a grain or so of fast powder as a booster.
All subsonic. all fun.

[dtknowles]

With Red Dot and the fast powders less tends to be more.

The slow powders like full cases and long barrels. (If you need to go fast)
I'll admit fast is easy.

Slow works also however if you take some time to learn the rainbow, make good notes. Maybe even tape a crib sheet on the stock as to how much drop you can expect at different ranges. Then it is just a matter of experience getting the ranges right. 185 to 200 gr cast bullet is not going to stop till it hits something.

What that something is depends on how much time you put into it. But comparing 55 gr loads of slow powder to 4-6 gr loads of fast. You can burn a lot of fast powder for penny's a load. At 7 grains there is a thousand loads. Figure 25.00$ per pound that is 2.5 cents per shot. At 55 gr of slow powder you get 157 rounds per pound. That is 54 and a half cents EACH.

I know where I lean, YMMV.

Just remember the vast amount of buffalo killed were killed with large slow moving lead bullets at long ranges.
Mass + momentum is your friend.

Your logic is good but your math is bad. The light load is 2.5 cents but 7000/55 is 127, and $25/127 is $0.20 so the heavy charge is 20 cents a round for powder if the powder is $25 per pound. Your point is still valid just the heavy charge is not quite as bad as you made it sound.

Tim

[Frosty Boolit]

Correct. "The Load" calls for 13gr Red Dot as a universal load in higher SAAMI pressure calibers...no, no, no...not for 30-30. And definately not subsonic. Cut that in half...that's the velocities I'm working. Heavy and slow is my creedo for this locale and my circumstances.

Heavy and slow, why I love the 45/70 so much.

[Yooper003]

I don't have any Unique, I don't care for it. Any experience with Red Dot loads in the 4570?
11.5 gr. of red dot very accurate from my cva 45/70 with Lee 340 gr. Boolit

[PAndy]

My Marlins and especially my 12" twist Winchester do not want to stabilize heavy 30-30 bullets at that slow speed. I had ideas about shooting subsonic rcbs 180 fp bullets that weigh 198 gr, but my rifles won't stabilize them...even 311041 bullets seem to get wobbly. 155 grain bullets work well. My slow loads are usually 7.5 gr of American Select or WST. Even at 1200+ fps the trajectory really drops fast beyond 100 yards. I like the WST powder for this because it is very light-colored and easier to see down in the cases before seating bullets.

[earlmck]

Yep. I see this all the time, everybody thinks that 13 grains of Red Dot is universal and don't even think about it. Personally, it seems too hot to me even in .30-06 for best accuracy, don't even want to think about that much fast powder in a .30-30, especially with heavy bullets.


Just for grins I ran some of these loads by QuickLoad to see what that program says. 13 grains Red Dot in the 30/30 shows over 56k psi (waaay too hot) using the old 175 grain 31141 boolit, about 1700 fps. In the '06 the 13 grains was 26k psi and 1500 fps; 308 win gave 35k psi and 1600 fps. So yes, "The Load" gives nice usable loads for our old reliable 308's and 30-06's but is way hot in a 30/30.

Back to the 30/30, 10 grains shows 39k psi (high but a bit under SAAMI max) and almost 1500 fps. I'm not recommending this load; just showing how far back you'd need to drop the Red Dot when the cases get smaller.

[GhostHawk]

Thank you Earl! Been running 6-8 grains of Red Dot in mine with good accuracy so far.
Never had a desire to go above 8.