I know that most of us here are Theists

[dtknowles]

So how do you think God intervenes in the world? Do you believe that God answers prayers?

If you pray for a cure for one who is sick, do you expect a miracle or just an explainable cure or remission.

Why do we even pray? God knows our hopes, dreams, loves, aspirations. God knows everything.

Are silent prayers as good as praying out loud?

Have you ever prayed evil for your enemies?

Tim

[1hole]

You've been insistent that no one even think you may be a Christian and you don't at all care what scripture says so I wonder why you pretend to care what Christians believe. I mean, you've consistently made it clear you don't believe anything we believe so why pose more questions simply to make a rhetorical platform for you to posture on; why not just write what you want the world to hear about what you think and be done with it?

[EDG]

Is that a Christian attitude?

[1hole]

Is that a Christian attitude?

Our Christian duty to present the gospel has been well fulfilled with Tim. So if the Mat 7:6 and 10:14 sayings of Christ Jesus himself means anything to you, yes it is a Christian attitude.

I do and will continue to pray for Tim's salvation but I'm not playing his childish head game of salvation according to Tim as if it means anything anymore. You do as you will.

[dverna]

This from the NIV Study Bible commenting on Matt 7.7-8 on prayer:

What Jesus was promising here is insight and drection through the work of the Spirit within us. Jesus was not promising that we will receive whatever we might think we need. As the Holy Spirit directs our hearts, we will desire those things that God desires. We can have faith to see those things accomplished as the fulfillment of His promise."

This is not an easy principle to accept if you lose a 4 year old child or grandchild. I cannot bring myself to accept how the death of a child can serve His promise...and that praying for a cure is somehow wrong.

[6bg6ga]

Is that a Christian attitude?

I would think the Christian attitude would mean that you would listen and try to have a meaningful discussion. So far I have seen very little of that. I guess "The Bible tell me so" sums it up.

[exile]

If we are Christ's disciples, we pray because He prayed; we pray because He told us to pray; because He told us to pray without ceasing; because He taught us to pray; because He told us to pray and not give up; and if we were honest, because most of the time that is all we can do.

"Dear Lord, we are so lost without You, help us to pray..."

"Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." 1 John 3:2 (NASB)

exile

[toallmy]

Tim I'm not a very good Christian , but every day I try to be better . If you ever feel the call of the Lord and you would like to pray just do it whenever wherever and however .

[Ickisrulz]

You've been insistent that no one even think you may be a Christian and you don't at all care what scripture says so I wonder why you pretend to care what Christians believe. I mean, you've consistently made it clear you don't believe anything we believe so why pose more questions simply to make a rhetorical platform for you to posture on; why not just write what you want the world to hear about what you think and be done with it?

I was thinking the exact same thing!

[DCP]

Acts 20:28-30
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

[a danl]

You've been insistent that no one even think you may be a Christian and you don't at all care what scripture says so I wonder why you pretend to care what Christians believe. I mean, you've consistently made it clear you don't believe anything we believe so why pose more questions simply to make a rhetorical platform for you to posture on; why not just write what you want the world to hear about what you think and be done with it?

i agree ...tim seems to be a person who likes to stir the pot and doesn't see the stew, because he has been given very good biblical info and continually argues on his own beliefs. says he believes in god , but so does a lot of people and that alone won't save them. example ; he believes that donald trump is president but does donald trump know him?

[dtknowles]

Tim I'm not a very good Christian , but every day I try to be better . If you ever feel the call of the Lord and you would like to pray just do it whenever wherever and however .

I pray sometimes. After I pray I wonder why I am praying. God knows how I feel. Why should I be asking God to change things, who am I to make requests or even suggestions to God.

In the fourth post to this thread 1hole says he prays for my salvation. Somehow that just seems insulting, it does not seem heart felt. There is nothing wrong with him praying for me but the crowing about it, just does not seem right. I think he is just virtue signaling.

When people ask us to pray for them, I do. I guess, responding with a "prayers sent" might be reassuring to those who asked. There seems to be a dynamic to this that is as much social as it is religious.

Tim

[dtknowles]

You've been insistent that no one even think you may be a Christian and you don't at all care what scripture says so I wonder why you pretend to care what Christians believe. I mean, you've consistently made it clear you don't believe anything we believe so why pose more questions simply to make a rhetorical platform for you to posture on; why not just write what you want the world to hear about what you think and be done with it?

I think that I believe a lot of things Christians believe. There is much in scripture with which I agree. I think that much of value in scripture is how it separates virtue from vice. How it uses stories to explain right and wrong.

Right is: prudence, justice, fortitude, temperance, faith, hope, and charity.

Wrong is: pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed, and sloth.

I believe these things that Jesus taught, I just don't believe Jesus is God.

I come here and tell people that I think it is more important that they do what is right and avoid what is wrong than it is that they believe Jesus is God. I know the Bible says differently but I don't believe the Bible is always right.

Tim

[sharps4590]

Wow...

As it is apparent you have set yourself as your own god, why bother with the questions?

[Rizzo]

Well,....
Getting back On Topic.

Yes, I sometimes pray. Actually it is more of a one way conversation that I express how I feel about certain things.
Sometimes I complain to God about stuff that I see in this world that is so ...saddening.

I get hung up sometimes when, for instance, I see an older person hunched over when walking and can see some pain going on.
Then I ask God to give that person some healing and a better quality of life.
During that "conversation" I start thinking of Aunt Mary, or Uncle Bill and ask for the same thing for them. Then it expands in my mind about all of the other people in this country, then the world that also need help in some fashion.
Then, it seems so selfish of me to just ask for help for that one person. Then I get frustrated and stop.

Are prayers answered?
I hope so but most of the time I would say NO.
Perhaps I am looking for a somewhat immediate response but God may take His time to answer the prayer some time down the road.

My nephew belongs to a Christian congregation and his wife was pregnant with twins and it was later found out that one of the twins would not make it. I forget what the problem was.
The whole congregation got involved and all did some heavy praying for that baby.
This went on for two or three months.
He, and the congregation were so convinced that Jesus would intervene and give a miracle to that baby.
Then he (they) could claim that miracles do happen.

But, the baby did not make it. <sigh>
I thought that this might shatter his faith but it did not.

"Ask and ye shall receive".
Uh-hh, ........nope.

[1hole]

As the Holy Spirit directs our hearts, we will desire those things that God desires. We can have faith to see those things accomplished as the fulfillment of His promise.".......

This is not an easy principle to accept if you lose a 4 year old child or grandchild.

You're right Don. I think the near death of my then 4 1/2 year old grandaughter with kidney cancer remains one of the most gut tearing experiences of my life. To the astonishment of the medics, by prayer she survived and has given us two delightful great-grandsons but neither she nor her husband profess Christ today. If that persists she (and her sons) will pay a terrible price for her survival so now we pray for her salvation as fervently as we did 25 years ago for her life.


I cannot bring myself to accept .... that praying for a cure is somehow wrong.

It is not wrong at all; we rightly pray for anything our heart aches for. But God is not the Great Santa Claus in the sky standing by to fill our wish list. I believe we should pray as we want and trustfully end our prayers the way Jesus ended his on the mount of olives: "... Father I really don't want this painful cup but, nevertheless, not my will but Thine be done." (Luke 22:42-43 - my own paraphrase)

Many say God doesn't answer prayers. That's not so, God ALWAYS answers our prayers; sometimes 'yes', sometimes "later', sometimes 'no'. Perhaps, like the Lord, we do best when we pray for what we want and trust the Father to know best, even in our agony and tears, if the answer is no?

[tankgunner59]

God is Triune. Three in one. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Think of it like this, we humans have a mind, body and a spirit, and we are made in His image. So with God it is, God the Father is the mind element since He is the all knowing part, not physically touchable. God the Son is the body element since He became flesh and dwelt here on earth with us. God the Holy Spirit is self explanatory being the spirit element. Nothing in Gods word is wrong, period. First,the problem is with humans being able to accept the answers we receive. Second, doing what is right and avoiding what is wrong can be a nice epitaph, but it won't get me into heaven. No one can "earn" his way to salvation, because it comes by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. "No one comes to the Father, but by me" (Jesus). We can not get to our salvation by anything we can do in our own strength, it is a gift from God through His Son, period. Third, does God answer prayer, absolutely! WE have to accept the fact that sometimes, and for our own good, the answer is NO. Look back at your childhood, or your children's, did your dad give you everything you asked for? Or did you give your children everything they asked for? No, they didn't and we didn't. Why? Because they and we felt we knew best for them because we/they were immature. As Paul said, we did not run right away, we had to crawl, learn to walk and then learn to run and it is the same with Christianity. (Paraphrase) We question God's answers to our prayers because we expect to get what we want, because we, as Christians are immature and need to grow.
I too am an immature Christian and I have been a practicing Christian for more than 30 years. It is hard for all of us to accept an answer we don't want, I'm no different.
My suggestion for you Tim, and anyone else who has questions, is to find a local church and speak to the clergyman there. Ask him your questions, you won't have to join their church or contribute financially if you don't want to, and he or she will be more than happy to answer your questions and pray with you if you so choose. Whatever you do, don't shut God out, get to know Him. He wants to know you. Oh, and why pray since He already knows your wants, hurts and dreams? Because He simply wants to hear from us! I pray at least once every day, not bragging just an example, and sometimes it's just to say thank you God for the simple things. I pray right now that our heavenly Father would reach out and bless each and every one of you right now, even if just to tell you He loves you. YMMV God bless.

[JWFilips]

The only thing I know about all this ....is that Divinity had only asked of us that they be "Praised every day" Praise the Lord twas all that was asked of us!
Read it, Learn it, understand it!

[dtknowles]

Wow...

As it is apparent you have set yourself as your own god, why bother with the questions?

I certainly am not God. God is the creator of the universe. The questions are to prompt dialog and introspection. You it seems want to shut down the dialog which is contrary to the point of this forum.

Tim

[dtknowles]

God is Triune. Three in one. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Think of it like this, we humans have a mind, body and a spirit, and we are made in His image. So with God it is, God the Father is the mind element since He is the all knowing part, not physically touchable. God the Son is the body element since He became flesh and dwelt here on earth with us. God the Holy Spirit is self explanatory being the spirit element. Nothing in Gods word is wrong, period. First,the problem is with humans being able to accept the answers we receive. Second, doing what is right and avoiding what is wrong can be a nice epitaph, but it won't get me into heaven. No one can "earn" his way to salvation, because it comes by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. "No one comes to the Father, but by me" (Jesus). We can not get to our salvation by anything we can do in our own strength, it is a gift from God through His Son, period. Third, does God answer prayer, absolutely! WE have to accept the fact that sometimes, and for our own good, the answer is NO. Look back at your childhood, or your children's, did your dad give you everything you asked for? Or did you give your children everything they asked for? No, they didn't and we didn't. Why? Because they and we felt we knew best for them because we/they were immature. As Paul said, we did not run right away, we had to crawl, learn to walk and then learn to run and it is the same with Christianity. (Paraphrase) We question God's answers to our prayers because we expect to get what we want, because we, as Christians are immature and need to grow.
I too am an immature Christian and I have been a practicing Christian for more than 30 years. It is hard for all of us to accept an answer we don't want, I'm no different.
My suggestion for you Tim, and anyone else who has questions, is to find a local church and speak to the clergyman there. Ask him your questions, you won't have to join their church or contribute financially if you don't want to, and he or she will be more than happy to answer your questions and pray with you if you so choose. Whatever you do, don't shut God out, get to know Him. He wants to know you. Oh, and why pray since He already knows your wants, hurts and dreams? Because He simply wants to hear from us! I pray at least once every day, not bragging just an example, and sometimes it's just to say thank you God for the simple things. I pray right now that our heavenly Father would reach out and bless each and every one of you right now, even if just to tell you He loves you. YMMV God bless.

Thank you for your considered response.

I know the Christian answers to those questions and I find them lacking. I have not come here looking for answers, I come here looking for converts, not to get people to give up Christianity but to get them to act more the way Jesus would want. Do more good, love everyone, stop sinning. Don't count on forgiveness don't do things you will need forgiven.

Your Suggestion
"My suggestion for you Tim, and anyone else who has questions, is to find a local church and speak to the clergyman there."
I think is misplaced, you go to a Church and speak to the clergyman you get church dogma. Why did you not suggest I go to a Temple, Synagogue, Shrine or Mosque. Why would I get better advice at a Church.

Tim

[dtknowles]

The only thing I know about all this ....is that Divinity had only asked of us that they be "Praised every day" Praise the Lord twas all that was asked of us!
Read it, Learn it, understand it!

This here is well put. Yes, praise be unto God that God's will be done. Maybe prayers are not for asking but should just be an expression of thankfulness. Thank you God today in prayer until I can thank you in person.

Tim

[dtknowles]

……... Because He simply wants to hear from us! I pray at least once every day, not bragging just an example, and sometimes it's just to say thank you God for the simple things.……...

As a child, I prayed at least two times a day. We prayed before dinner and we prayed before bed. I don't think that God wants to hear from us. I think it is good for us to be thankful and be consciously thankful many times each day but I don't think God needs or wants to hear it.

Tim

[exile]

I have known Christ for over 35 years (or rather I am known by Him). I can tell you that there are not enough hours in the day to tell you about all the answered prayer during that time.

Have there been times of heartache as wel? Lack of understanding? Times when God said no? Or wait? Of course!

But answered prayer? Yes! And I am sure other believers here can speak to the same experience.

exile

[dtknowles]

I have known Christ for over 35 years (or rather I am known by Him). I can tell you that there are not enough hours in the day to tell you about all the answered prayer during that time.

Have there been times of heartache as wel? Lack of understanding? Times when God said no? Or wait? Of course!

But answered prayer? Yes! And I am sure other believers here can speak to the same experience.

exile

Would God have done differently if you had not prayed?

Tim

[exile]

That is a good question. I believe (by faith) that God allows believers to have a part in His revealed will through prayer. I also believe He does this for our benefit, to bless us, not because He needs our prayers as a condition for action on His part.

God needs nothing from us. I suppose if I had not prayed He would have answered the prayers of other Christians just the same.

Since I plan to keep praying, I guess that is a hard question to answer.

exile

[sharps4590]

Ahh...but you are cherry picking the Holy Scriptures. "I believe this but not that". The Scriptures are quite clear that Jesus and God are one. You say no. Is that not the same as saying you know more than God, setting yourself above God? You say you don't believe the Bible is always right. Is that too not the same as setting yourself above God, that you know better? That would be the same as me saying God is wrong about adultry and it's ok for me to committ adultry as long as I abide by all the other commands. Jesus had a word for that, it is "hypocrite".

You question prayer. I say read the book of James. Briefly, "the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much". I'm not trying to shut down discussion. I'm wondering if you are doing no more than has been alluded to, stirring the pot. Apparently you know what the Scriptures say, you simply prefer not to believe or abide by those parts which do not appeal to you. How is one to draw a different conclusion and/or have a discussion with one who sets himself above God?

[toallmy]

I pray to the Lord in Jesus name

[GhostHawk]

I'm with Exile, I've seen prayers answered. Both in my own life and in others.

I don't pray much or often for myself. My wife, friends, extended family, yes even strangers here or on other forums.

I do try hard to remember to thank the lord when I awake for another day on the green side of the grass. Even if it is below zero outside and there is 3 feet of snow on the grass. Spring will come. One more day to try to do better than I did yesterday.

[No_1]

I would ask all to review the following from the ---> PBS <--- (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/mmfour.html) website. It details how some if not most "scriptures" were passed down by story tellers well past the death of Jesus, before being put into writing. I bring this up as most indicate they follow the word of the Bible without doubt but never consider the word of the Bible may have been embellished upon by these story tellers between the time the events happened and 40+ years (and untold story tellers) later when the first of whichever version of the story being told was put to paper (papyrus?). I also find it interesting that most languages do not have a direct translations of some words to the English language but most people believe the words as being the direct translation of the events. Most interestingly is the sentence under the title : "Written over the course of almost a century after Jesus' death, the four gospels of the New Testament, though they tell the same story, reflect very different ideas and concerns." Is it to much to agree that it is acceptable the bible which is written base on the interpretation of "a story teller" will be interpreted by the individual based on their own understanding of what they believe without harm to the intent of the idea that to believe is to be saved?

"An Introduction to the Gospels
Written over the course of almost a century after Jesus' death, the four gospels of the New Testament, though they tell the same story, reflect very different ideas and concerns.
by Marilyn Mellowes

A period of forty years separates the death of Jesus from the writing of the first gospel. History offers us little direct evidence about the events of this period, but it does suggest that the early Christians were engaged in one of the most basic of human activities: story-telling. In the words of Mike White, "It appears that between the death of Jesus and the writing of the first gospel, Mark, that they clearly are telling stories. They're passing on the tradition of what happened to Jesus, what he stood for and what he did, orally, by telling it and retelling it. And in the process they are defining Jesus for themselves."

These shared memories, passed along by word of mouth, are known as "oral tradition." They included stories of Jesus' miracles and healings, his parables and teachings, and his death. Eventually some stories were written down. The first written documents probably included an account of the death of Jesus and a collection of sayings attributed to him.

Then, in about the year 70, the evangelist known as Mark wrote the first "gospel" -- the words mean "good news" about Jesus. We will never know the writer's real identity, or even if his name was Mark, since it was common practice in the ancient world to attribute written works to famous people. But we do know that it was Mark's genius to first to commit the story of Jesus to writing, and thereby inaugurated the gospel tradition.

"The gospels are very peculiar types of literature. They're not biographies," says Prof. Paula Fredriksen, "they are a kind of religious advertisement. What they do is proclaim their individual author's interpretation of the Christian message through the device of using Jesus of Nazareth as a spokesperson for the evangelists' position."

About 15 years after Mark, in about the year 85 CE, the author known as Matthew composed his work, drawing on a variety of sources, including Mark and from a collection of sayings that scholars later called "Q", for Quelle, meaning source. The Gospel of Luke was written about fifteen years later, between 85 and 95. Scholars refer to these three gospels as the "synoptic gospels", because they "see" things in the same way. The Gospel of John, sometimes called "the spiritual gospel," was probably composed between 90 and 100 CE. Its style and presentation clearly set it apart from the other three.

Each of the four gospels depicts Jesus in a different way. These characterizations reflect the past experiences and the particular circumstances of their authors' communities. The historical evidence suggests that Mark wrote for a community deeply affected by the failure of the First Jewish Revolt against Rome. Matthew wrote for a Jewish community in conflict with the Pharisaic Judaism that dominated Jewish life in the postwar period. Luke wrote for a predominately Gentile audience eager to demonstrate that Christian beliefs in no way conflicted with their ability to serve as a good citizen of the Empire.

Despite these differences, all four gospels contain the "passion narrative," the central story of Jesus' suffering and death. That story is directly connected to the Christian ritual of the Eucharist. As Helmut Koester has observed, the ritual cannot "live" without the story.

While the gospels tell a story about Jesus, they also reflect the growing tensions between Christians and Jews. By the time Luke composed his work, tension was breaking into open hostility. By the time John was written, the conflict had become an open rift, reflected in the vituperative invective of the evangelist's language. In the words of Prof. Eric Meyers, "Most of the gospels reflect a period of disagreement, of theological disagreement. And the New Testament tells a story of a broken relationship, and that's part of the sad story that evolves between Jews and Christians, because it is a story that has such awful repercussions in later times."

[Markopolo]

The well is deep” — and even a great deal deeper than the Samaritan woman knew! (John 4:11). Think of the depths of human nature and human life; think of the depth of the “wells” in you. Have you been limiting, or impoverishing, the ministry of Jesus to the point that He is unable to work in your life? Suppose that you have a deep “well” of hurt and trouble inside your heart, and Jesus comes and says to you, “Let not your heart be troubled…” (John 14:1). Would your response be to shrug your shoulders and say, “But, Lord, the well is too deep, and even You can’t draw up quietness and comfort out of it.” Actually, that is correct. Jesus doesn’t bring anything up from the wells of human nature— He brings them down from above. We limit the Holy One of Israel by remembering only what we have allowed Him to do for us in the past, and also by saying, “Of course, I cannot expect God to do this particular thing.” The thing that approaches the very limits of His power is the very thing we as disciples of Jesus ought to believe He will do. We impoverish and weaken His ministry in us the moment we forget He is almighty. The impoverishment is in us, not in Him. We will come to Jesus for Him to be our comforter or our sympathizer, but we refrain from approaching Him as our Almighty God.

The reason some of us are such poor examples of Christianity is that we have failed to recognize that Christ is almighty. We have Christian attributes and experiences, but there is no abandonment or surrender to Jesus Christ. When we get into difficult circumstances, we impoverish His ministry by saying, “Of course, He can’t do anything about this.” We struggle to reach the bottom of our own well, trying to get water for ourselves. Beware of sitting back, and saying, “It can’t be done.” You will know it can be done if you will look to Jesus. The well of your incompleteness runs deep, but make the effort to look away from yourself and to look toward Him.

[roadie]

"Most interestingly is the sentence under the title : "Written over the course of almost a century after Jesus' death, the four gospels of the New Testament, though they tell the same story, reflect very different ideas and concerns." Is it to much to agree that it is acceptable the bible which is written base on the interpretation of "a story teller" will be interpreted by the individual based on their own understanding of what they believe without harm to the intent of the idea that to believe is to be saved?"





If only it were that easy.

People don't want to accept that the bible may not be exactly as is recorded, to accept that it may be embellished would interfere with their beliefs. And, to an extent, that's fine, I'm the last one to tell anyone what to believe. It becomes a problem though, when the bible is used as an excuse to persecute others, as has been done many times over the centuries, and is still done today.

It also becomes a problem when the more fervent believers refuse to accept that others may hold differing views, and that's where the sniping, demeaning comments, the trash, comes from.

I don't understand why this forum is so easily accessible, when any other forum with the same propensity to causing problems are not. It's no different in nature to anything in the Pit, and in my opinion, should share the same area.

[Ickisrulz]

I don't think the idea that parts of the Bible were "works in progress" for decades does any damage to the understanding that Scripture is inspired by God. Just like believing in the "Big Bang" doesn't mean God didn't create the universe (and cause the Big Bang).

[No_1]

.........like believing in the "Big Bang" doesn't mean God didn't create the universe (and cause the Big Bang).

Now that is an interesting thought which would explain both sides of THAT story.

[No_1]

I don't understand why this forum is so easily accessible, when any other forum with the same propensity to causing problems are not. It's no different in nature to anything in the Pit, and in my opinion, should share the same area.

The Chapel (and it’s sub forums) which should represent the good of mankind is at the top of the forum list and the PIT (and it’s sub forums) which is full of all the things which represent the worst of mankind is at the bottom just as Heaven is above us and Hell is below.

[1hole]

It becomes a problem though, when the bible is used as an excuse to persecute others, as has been done many times over the centuries, and is still done today.

That sounds reasonable ... unless you know the truth.

Religion has been used by deadly despots for their own good since the Flood; little of that has had any connection to Christianity or the Bible, nor are any attacking Christians involved in the many "religious" battles in progress today.

In fact, around the world, Christians (and the Bible) are under lethal attack every day. Mostly (but not entirely) from bloody minded Islamics. And even Muslims aren't attacking Christians as such, they just as happily attack and murder anyone but "themselves", including diverse sects of Islam, so I can't accept blaming the mean ol' "Bible" as responsible for any of it.

[dtknowles]

That is a good question. I believe (by faith) that God allows believers to have a part in His revealed will through prayer. I also believe He does this for our benefit, to bless us, not because He needs our prayers as a condition for action on His part.

God needs nothing from us. I suppose if I had not prayed He would have answered the prayers of other Christians just the same.

Since I plan to keep praying, I guess that is a hard question to answer.

exile

I think that praying out loud and listening to what you are saying can help us. It helps us understand ourselves and that can bring us close to God.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Ahh...but you are cherry picking the Holy Scriptures. "I believe this but not that". The Scriptures are quite clear that Jesus and God are one. You say no. Is that not the same as saying you know more than God, setting yourself above God? You say you don't believe the Bible is always right. Is that too not the same as setting yourself above God, that you know better? That would be the same as me saying God is wrong about adultry and it's ok for me to committ adultry as long as I abide by all the other commands. Jesus had a word for that, it is "hypocrite".

You question prayer. I say read the book of James. Briefly, "the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much". I'm not trying to shut down discussion. I'm wondering if you are doing no more than has been alluded to, stirring the pot. Apparently you know what the Scriptures say, you simply prefer not to believe or abide by those parts which do not appeal to you. How is one to draw a different conclusion and/or have a discussion with one who sets himself above God?

Not believing the Bible is not putting myself above God, it is putting myself above the Authors of the Bible. The only thing that says the Bible is the word of God, is the Bible so if it was not written by God then the Authors are liars. They only wrote it was the word of God so that they would get more attention. Just more fiction in a work filled with fiction. It is just a story.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Now that is an interesting thought which would explain both sides of THAT story.

The whole God created the Universe by causing a Big Bang is right where I am at. It does not stop there. This Universe is not the only Universe. There is a multiverse, a constellation of Universe like the Universe is a constellation of Galaxies. The Big Bang was not the first Big Bang but the others are so far away that we don't know what we are seeing when we see them with our telescopes. The immensity of God and Creation is marvelous.

Tim

[Don Purcell]

The Bible teaches to pray unceasing and then says to pray as if it has already been answered. OK, which is it. If you pray unceasing about something then how good is your faith and trust in the first place. Seems like to pray and then drop it proves more of a faith to me. But I'm a heathen and infidel so what do I know. Flame away.

[sharps4590]

Yes Mr. Knowles, you are....unless you are referring to a god other than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[6bg6ga]

"Most interestingly is the sentence under the title : "Written over the course of almost a century after Jesus' death, the four gospels of the New Testament, though they tell the same story, reflect very different ideas and concerns." Is it to much to agree that it is acceptable the bible which is written base on the interpretation of "a story teller" will be interpreted by the individual based on their own understanding of what they believe without harm to the intent of the idea that to believe is to be saved?"





If only it were that easy.

People don't want to accept that the bible may not be exactly as is recorded, to accept that it may be embellished would interfere with their beliefs. And, to an extent, that's fine, I'm the last one to tell anyone what to believe. It becomes a problem though, when the bible is used as an excuse to persecute others, as has been done many times over the centuries, and is still done today.

It also becomes a problem when the more fervent believers refuse to accept that others may hold differing views, and that's where the sniping, demeaning comments, the trash, comes from.

I don't understand why this forum is so easily accessible, when any other forum with the same propensity to causing problems are not. It's no different in nature to anything in the Pit, and in my opinion, should share the same area.

Good point. Why even have a "Deep theological discussion area" when the attitude is "The Bible Tells Me So' refusal to even remotely discuss anything else or the possibility that since the Bible content wasn't recorded until after Christs death the possibility of content distortion since its been handed down and passed down.

[1hole]

IF we discard scripture and insert our loftiest opinions it wouldn't be a theology discussion at all, it would just be an amature religious philosophy & BS forum.

[Ickisrulz]

Good point. Why even have a "Deep theological discussion area" when the attitude is "The Bible Tells Me So' refusal to even remotely discuss anything else or the possibility that since the Bible content wasn't recorded until after Christs death the possibility of content distortion since its been handed down and passed down.

Since the Bible is the Christian's authority for faith and conduct, you should not be surprised that answers from them will revolve around the Bible. Now, I don't think posting an excerpt from the Bible is going to be the best way to answer a question because there are very few stand alone "proof texts" in Scripture. All Scripture needs context and historical perspective to be understood, as well as comparison with other passages on the matter at being explored.

Admittedly, there are some Christians who believe that God more or less dictated the Bible's contents to the writers. These peoples' faith will be shaken when they find out that parts of the Bible were borrowed from other cultures (e.g., Code of Hammurabi, portions of Proverbs and historical books), and that books were edited or added to over many years. On the other hand, the observant student of the Bible understands that God almost always uses a process to accomplish his work, especially when dealing with man. So the believer can trust that each step of developing what we have today was overseen supernaturally by God, giving each generation what they needed during their time on earth.

In other words, just because the Bible's content was passed down orally and then in writing over long periods of time doesn't mean its content was distorted since God guided the process. God works miracles.

[1hole]

Since the Bible is the Christian's authority for faith and conduct, you should not be surprised that answers from them will revolve around the Bible.

True. But the topic is (or is supposed to be) "Deep Theology, meaning God's word. It hardly seems surprising that (proper) comments will reference the specific verses where (in God's word) the truth can be found. Perhaps those who want to share their own religious ideas and "truths" as equal to, or better than, the Bible would be better served by opening a new forum and naming it "The Gospel According to ME!" or something like that. Then we Christians would stay away and others could freely wallow in their common delusions as feels good to themselves.


Now, I don't think posting an excerpt from the Bible is going to be the best way to answer a question

I do. Of course many will reject scripture but what topics may we discuss without strong opposing views? I mean Ford/Chevy, Remington/Winchester, Trump/Sanders, real news vs. faked news, etc., won't work either.

In the study of theology scripture is the ONLY answer, at least as a starting foundation. Our religious disagreements are rarely a matter of what the Bible says, any 8th grade kid can read that if he knows where to look. What is written in the Book is obvious if you know what the correct passages are, that's why real theology starts with scripture references. Our "problem" is how scripture is interpreted and/or applied, but if scripture itself isn't supposed to be in a theological discussion then it isn't a theological discussion.


... there are very few stand alone "proof texts" in Scripture. All Scripture needs context and historical perspective to be understood, as well as comparison with other passages on the matter at being explored.

You're close enough to let that stand. But, again, the confusion many non-serious students/day-dreamers often have is ignorance of the Bible verses that, taken together, give the true overall message we should be seeking.

So, again, citing scripture is not only the right thing to do here, it is the ONLY way to get passed the fog many Biblically illiterate folk have when they start stoutly preaching their own "truths".


Admittedly, there are some Christians who believe that God more or less dictated the Bible's contents to the writers. These peoples' faith will be shaken when they find out that parts of the Bible were borrowed from other cultures (e.g., Code of Hammurabi, portions of Proverbs and historical books), and that books were edited or added to over many years.

Is the Bible "more or less" God's message to us? I think it's much better than that. And, within orthodox Christianity, only the Roman Church has "added" a few newer books.

Since we don't have the original autographs we can't be scientifically certain every word in our favorite Bible version is absolutely infallible but that hardly matters. What matters are the core Biblical truths, i.e. the spiritual message, we should be getting based on the information we have.

I know of no meaningful "errors" in the Bible itself, the supposed "errors" arise in the hearts of those who insistently reject what scripture clearly says because God clearly doesn't (theologically) agree with them.


In other words, just because the Bible's content was passed down orally and then in writing over long periods of time doesn't mean its content was distorted since God guided the process. God works miracles.

Absolutely.

[Rizzo]

..... But the topic is (or is supposed to be) "Deep Theology, meaning God's word. It hardly seems surprising that (proper) comments will reference the specific verses where (in God's word) the truth can be found. Perhaps those who want to share their own religious ideas and "truths" as equal to, or better than, the Bible would be better served by opening a new forum and naming it "The Gospel According to ME!" or something like that. Then we Christians would stay away and others could freely wallow in their common delusions as feels good to themselves.

You almost got the definition correct.

Definition of Theology by Merriam-Webster
---------------------------------------------
Theology definition is - the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world.

The study of God does not just mean what Christians believe.
Perhaps there should be a forum For Christians Only.
Then you wouldn't have to deal with other's beliefs and could then just wallow in your (collectively) delusions of "We are right and everyone else is wrong."


.....Our "problem" is how scripture is interpreted and/or applied, but if scripture itself isn't supposed to be in a theological discussion then it isn't a theological discussion.
Agreed on the interpretation point but we can have Deep Theological Discussion without scripture.
But, scriptural references certainly can be under the umbrella of The Study of God.


So, again, citing scripture is not only the right thing to do here, it is the ONLY way to get passed the fog many Biblically illiterate folk have when they start stoutly preaching their own "truths".

That would be true for biblically illiterate Christians.
Probably not relevant to those who have different beliefs.

[1hole]

That would be true for biblically illiterate Christians. Probably not relevant to those who have different beliefs.

Certainly not. And absolutely not for those who come here shopping around for religious daydreams and amusing new delusions to mull over. But, none of that changes the basic meaning of "theology".

[dtknowles]

Yes Mr. Knowles, you are....unless you are referring to a god other than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

There is but one God, God the creator of all things. God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jesus and Mohammad. The God of all. There is but one God and there is nothing but the Bible that says God wrote the Bible but since God is the creator of all things God also wrote Mein Kampf and the Quran.

Tim

[dtknowles]

IF we discard scripture and insert our loftiest opinions it wouldn't be a theology discussion at all, it would just be an amature religious philosophy & BS forum.

It would not be a discussion of Theology if we did not discuss all Theistic philosophy. If it was just about Christianity it would be called Bible Study. One man's BS is another man's deeply theological discussion. As much as you hate Islam, Muslims are Theists with their own "God Inspired" Scripture. I doubt we will see and Islamist poking there nose into this forum or at least not publicly. Many here are seriously inclined to be prejudiced against Muslims. Some people here can barely tolerate Mormons.

Tim

[dtknowles]

………….. On the other hand, the observant student of the Bible understands that God almost always uses a process to accomplish his work, especially when dealing with man. So the believer can trust that each step of developing what we have today was overseen supernaturally by God, giving each generation what they needed during their time on earth.

In other words, just because the Bible's content was passed down orally and then in writing over long periods of time doesn't mean its content was distorted since God guided the process. God works miracles.

This is an astute observation. Nothing happens without God's guidance. God has made the Bible what it needed to be, when it was needed. God has no obligation to the truth, the Bible can be fiction and still serve God's purpose. God does not mind that we will out grow the Bible and reach a higher understanding of God's purpose. The Bible is for beginners.

Tim

[a danl]

Since the Bible is the Christian's authority for faith and conduct, you should not be surprised that answers from them will revolve around the Bible. Now, I don't think posting an excerpt from the Bible is going to be the best way to answer a question because there are very few stand alone "proof texts" in Scripture. All Scripture needs context and historical perspective to be understood, as well as comparison with other passages on the matter at being explored.

Admittedly, there are some Christians who believe that God more or less dictated the Bible's contents to the writers. These peoples' faith will be shaken when they find out that parts of the Bible were borrowed from other cultures (e.g., Code of Hammurabi, portions of Proverbs and historical books), and that books were edited or added to over many years. On the other hand, the observant student of the Bible understands that God almost always uses a process to accomplish his work, especially when dealing with man. So the believer can trust that each step of developing what we have today was overseen supernaturally by God, giving each generation what they needed during their time on earth.

In other words, just because the Bible's content was passed down orally and then in writing over long periods of time doesn't mean its content was distorted since God guided the process. God works miracles.

His death was recorded before He was crucified just read Isaiah chapter 53 that is prophecy fulfilled

[dtknowles]

His death was recorded before He was crucified just read Isaiah chapter 53 that is prophecy fulfilled

What makes you think that Jesus' crucifixion is the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy? There must have been thousands of crucifixions between Isaiah's time and Jesus. The whole Jesus is the Christ hinges on whether he rose from the dead. We have nothing but hearsay evidence for the crucifixion or resurrection and only from the Bible where it is self-serving, not independent. Self-serving hearsay testimony is worthless.

Tim

[DCP]

What makes you think that Jesus' crucifixion is the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy? There must have been thousands of crucifixions between Isaiah's time and Jesus. The whole Jesus is the Christ hinges on whether he rose from the dead. We have nothing but hearsay evidence for the crucifixion or resurrection and only from the Bible where it is self-serving, not independent. Self-serving hearsay testimony is worthless.

Tim

1 John 4:1-6
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

[Thundarstick]

Luk 16
“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

[No_1]

There are too many comments to quote so I’ll just comment to all.

I do not believe anyone on this thread has indicated they do not believe in God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit but there are a few who believe that if one doesn’t swallow the Bible hook, line, and sinker then one doesn’t believe in God. I do understand there are some hardcore Christians who believe if I don’t put in the same effort as them then I should not or will not receive the same reward but in Gods eyes it doesn’t work that way. In the most simplest of terms all one has to do is ask for our sins to be forgiven and accept him as our savior to be accepted by his side upon our death.

So let me ask this one since I assume I am one of the “biblically illiterate” y’all speak of. Where does the Bible indicate we must meet in a church on Sunday and give to the plate in order to believe in God, be forgiven for our sins and be accepted to heaven. Correct me if I’m wrong but when Jesus was wandering the deserts he spoke to his followers when the mood struck him at the location they occupied at that particular moment.

[DCP]

The only way to get saved. Is to accept Jesus Christ as one savior and ask for forgiveness. Like the thief on the cross

[Ickisrulz]

What makes you think that Jesus' crucifixion is the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy? There must have been thousands of crucifixions between Isaiah's time and Jesus. The whole Jesus is the Christ hinges on whether he rose from the dead. We have nothing but hearsay evidence for the crucifixion or resurrection and only from the Bible where it is self-serving, not independent. Self-serving hearsay testimony is worthless.

Tim

Understanding how New Testament writers used the Old Testament is a difficult thing. In short, they drew from the Old Testament in different ways to make various points using material familiar to their audiences. Often times they took passages out of context to make a point or just used expressions familiar to their readers without suggesting additional meaning. In many instances, the writer making the quote is looking at the overall sense behind the original material, not every specific detail. When it comes to the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy concerning the Christ, this can be confusing for us today.

When we think of a prophecy today, it goes something like this: "On Tuesday at 12:30 a man will give you a box containing $10,000." If the prophecy were to come true, we'd have our box of money on Tuesday. New Testament writers did not see most of the prophecies like we do. They saw an idea in a passage or entire book and applied it to Jesus who fulfilled the overall promise of God concerning redemption. In other words, the New Testament authors weren't trying to deceive their audience, they were using the Old Testament in their own way to make their points.

So, using all the fulfilled prophecies to convince an unbeliever to change their mind is going to be a hard sell.

[Ickisrulz]

There are too many comments to quote so I’ll just comment to all.

I do not believe anyone on this thread has indicated they do not believe in God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit but there are a few who believe that if one doesn’t swallow the Bible hook, line, and sinker then one doesn’t believe in God. I do understand there are some hardcore Christians who believe if I don’t put in the same effort as them then I should not or will not receive the same reward but in Gods eyes it doesn’t work that way. In the most simplest of terms all one has to do is ask for our sins to be forgiven and accept him as our savior to be accepted by his side upon our death.

So let me ask this one since I assume I am one of the “biblically illiterate” y’all speak of. Where does the Bible indicate we must meet in a church on Sunday and give to the plate in order to believe in God, be forgiven for our sins and be accepted to heaven. Correct me if I’m wrong but when Jesus was wandering the deserts he spoke to his followers when the mood struck him at the location they occupied at that particular moment.

Did anyone make the claim you had to attend church or give in the offering to be saved? I don't remember reading that.

The New Testament encourages Christians to meet together for mutual encouragement. It doesn't say where or when.

The New Testament also presents Christians with the responsibility for caring for the needs of others if it is really needed. Then there is the idea that Christians should support people who do the work of God to the extent that they cannot have a normal job (e.g., missionaries). This of course would mean giving money at times (as well as other things).

Assembling together with the saints, providing for the poor and supporting God's workers is not mandatory for salvation. However, the New Testament expects Christians to live out their faith through good works. We must always remember that mere mental assent is not saving faith per James (and Jesus).

[1hole]

True. And well said Icki.

There is one God, one heaven. Not many gods with multipul heavenly access roads. It's God's heaven so he gets to make the rules, not us, so it's Him we must look to and trust in for a happy eternity.

Some people are so narrow minded they can't see more than one thing at a time. That works well IF their first idea is (Biblically) correct but Christians publically wrangling on trivial differences according to denominational precepts instead of the critical rules of the faith can be foolish.

Those whose stoutly defended doctrinal "evidence" is, "That's what I've always been taught so that's what I believe!" are often wrongly taught but, thankfully, few of those questions are critical to salvation.

On the other hand, we have those who are so religiously open minded their brains appear to have fallen out! It IS critical to "believe in" the Jesus of the Bible. There's no eternal value in a sincere belief in a specific denomination or Budda or Allah, or Gaia, or The Great Spirit or Joe Smith or Chas. Russell or Mary Eddy or Jim Jones or Ellen White or the Pope or etc. Those open minded and smug "believers" who confidently profess to "believe in a god" but, in effect, need to open their prayers with, "To whom it may concern ..." are in deep spiritual trouble.

I fear for those who loudly proclaim "Yeah, I know salvation is by faith but you also gotta do other stuff too..." With that "but you also", they immediately destroy the new testament way, that being "salvation is by faith alone in Jesus alone, and not by human works, lest anyone should boast". (See Eph 2:8-10)

Those who trust in any amount of good works are as spiritually lost as a goose in a blizzard even if they do every good work in the book! (See Rom 11:6)

A LOT of Christians have been taught and therefore believe that they need some degree of faith PLUS good works to gain God's saving favor have not looked clearly at the broader whole of N.T. teaching about works and salvation. Fact is, Christian good works (1) do nothing but eventually obtain heavenly rewards and such works are hopefully a (2) visible, functional evidence of a changed life rising from an internal faith. (See James 2:14-26)

Good works are good. They should be done. But, at their best, works do not make a saved person anymore saved nor can good works eventually make a lost person saved; it would make salvation by osmosis and become an earned self-rightiousness if it did. That plan may sound good to some humans but it diminishes the accomplished work of Jesus on the cross, therefore it won't work before the Father!

Bottom line, the salvation of God is obtained by faith alone, in Jesus alone, according to scripture alone. Godly good works arise from inside the saved and are not something they've imposed on themselves while trying to be "good enough" to be saved.

There is no wide entry into God's heaven as many self-styled "highly eddicated and innerlecshul stinkers" want others to believe. Truth is, a strong belief and rule following after "other gods" - like Islam - plus a swinging pile of "good works", even in church work as legalists claim, without already being a heaven bound, spiritually committed, "born again believer" in the God of the Bible gains little or no eternal benefit for anyone. (See Mat 7:13-33)

[6bg6ga]

Quote}On the other hand, we have those who are so religiously open minded their brains appear to have fallen out! It IS critical to "believe in" the Jesus of the Bible. There's no eternal value in a sincere belief in a specific denomination or Budda or Allah, or Gaia, or The Great Spirit or Joe Smith or Chas. Russell or Mary Eddy or Jim Jones or Ellen White or the Pope or etc. Those open minded and smug "believers" who confidently profess to "believe in a god" but, in effect, need to open their prayers with, "To whom it may concern ..." are in deep spiritual trouble.[Quote]

So in effect what you are doing is judging other religions? Surely Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, and the native of South America that has never heard of the bible are destined to not be saved. Down right amazing that a few of you can act as Judge and Jury and condemn any and all other religions simply because they follow the bible hook, line, and sinker. The Baptists and others like them believe 100% that unless you read and follow the bible your not saved. An example.. I was going to the Antioch Christian Church back in Iowa. I was doing some work at a Baptist church in southern Iowa and happened to talk to the preacher and was told "The Antioch Church is not the right Church" your not saved because they don't follow the bible and they put emphasis on singing during the service.

So when is singing the praise of Jesus Christ wrong? I think most here are to be blunt are a bunch of hypocrites that for the most part say one thing and do another when someone isn't there to see and or judge.

[6bg6ga]

What is Religion?


What is the real meaning of religion?
Religion is belief in a god or gods and the activities that are connected with this belief, such as praying or worshiping in a building such as a church or temple. ... A religion is a particular system of belief in a god or gods and the activities that are connected with this system.

Doesn't say your not religious if you don't read the bible unless I missed that part.

[1hole]

I do understand there are some hardcore Christians who believe if I don’t put in the same effort as them then I should not or will not receive the same reward but in Gods eyes it doesn’t work that way.

Anyone who "believes" that is Biblical illiterate. Scriptue doesn't say it so anyone who does say it has no idea of what the Bible says.

Now, if by "the same reward" you mean entry in heaven is the same reward for everyone, yes, you're right. But, if you mean everyone obtains the same rewards IN heaven, you are wrong. There will be a great judgement day to reward those Christians who lived rightly and I believe those rewards will be significant.


In the most simplest of terms all one has to do is ask for our sins to be forgiven and accept him as our savior to be accepted by his side upon our death.

In the simplest terms, yes, that's "all" that's required to be eternally saved. But it's not quite that simple; that spoken profession of faith MUST be sincere, simply mouthing the words will accomplish nothing.


Where does the Bible indicate we must meet in a church on Sunday and give to the plate in order to believe in God, be forgiven for our sins and be accepted to heaven.

Book of Opinions, first chapter, first verse? (I believe Opinions is probably the most often quoted book in the Bible.

BUT, if you can't find it in YOUR Bible, forget all that nice to do stuff as opinionated nonsense because, so far as it goes for salvation, not one point on that list is in the Bible!.


Correct me if I’m wrong but when Jesus was wandering the deserts he spoke to his followers when the mood struck him at the location they occupied at that particular moment.

You're right but with a stipulation; for three years Jesus held a series of theology lessons for the apostles in the ways of an outdoor symanary. What He said was always important but remember it wasn't a formal "sabbath day church meeting" every time He opened his mouth so your time and location analogy is a bit off.

[1hole]

What is Religion? .... Doesn't say your not religious if you don't read the bible unless I missed that part.

Being Christian is good. Just being "religious" isn't automatically good. The scribes, Pharasees and Saducees of Jesus' day were quite religious; didn't do them any good tho. The teachings of today's Muslims, Hindus, Jehovah Witness, LDS, Christian Science, et al, are very religious but none of them are Christian so they won't be going to the Christian God's heaven.

Family and friends communicate. The Bible is the way our heavenly Father speaks to us, prayer is the way we speak to Him. We can be VERY religious without opening a Bible ... but not opening it suggests we don't much care what He says and that says a lot about our true beliefs.

[a danl]

There are too many comments to quote so I’ll just comment to all.

I do not believe anyone on this thread has indicated they do not believe in God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit but there are a few who believe that if one doesn’t swallow the Bible hook, line, and sinker then one doesn’t believe in God. I do understand there are some hardcore Christians who believe if I don’t put in the same effort as them then I should not or will not receive the same reward but in Gods eyes it doesn’t work that way. In the most simplest of terms all one has to do is ask for our sins to be forgiven and accept him as our savior to be accepted by his side upon our death.

So let me ask this one since I assume I am one of the “biblically illiterate” y’all speak of. Where does the Bible indicate we must meet in a church on Sunday and give to the plate in order to believe in God, be forgiven for our sins and be accepted to heaven. Correct me if I’m wrong but when Jesus was wandering the deserts he spoke to his followers when the mood struck him at the location they occupied at that particular moment.

it says do not forsake the assembling of yourselves . if one doesn't meet on sunday (the lord's day) to worship God then just when would someone take the time to worship God. i'd say "go ahead pick a time . i'll pick sunday because that is where christians meet and i want to be with them to fellowship and worship God together and to grow in Christ. how many other countries would love to have the privilege that we have just to be able to worship together without fear? the bible does not say one has to give in the plate to believe in God. one gives what he/she desires to give, it does talk about the cheerful giver. to find these things one must be in the word continually, it's all in there.

[Tazlaw]

I pray sometimes. After I pray I wonder why I am praying. God knows how I feel. Why should I be asking God to change things, who am I to make requests or even suggestions to God.

In the fourth post to this thread 1hole says he prays for my salvation. Somehow that just seems insulting, it does not seem heart felt. There is nothing wrong with him praying for me but the crowing about it, just does not seem right. I think he is just virtue signaling.

When people ask us to pray for them, I do. I guess, responding with a "prayers sent" might be reassuring to those who asked. There seems to be a dynamic to this that is as much social as it is religious.

Tim

Why pray? God knows how you feel (knows your needs)?

Let me ask-are you a father? I would assume you know the needs of your children (or your father knows the needs of you). Does that mean the child should not converse with the father? Since the needs are known is there a reason to even ask for something? I say yes there is a need. A need for communion, conversation, a sharing of good and bad events. A father feels good when he can give to his children, he feels even better when they thank him for the provisions. Jesus said “ask and ye shall receive.” I take every opportunity to speak with my father and with God.

As far as “praying for your salvation”, you should be honored and not insulted. Salvation is the single most important thing in life. No matter what you’ve done, do, or become matters if there is no salvation because there will be nothing left, nothing to carry on. By simply asking Christ to be your Lord and Savior you will secure you’re eternal life and everything will be given to you.

[dtknowles]

Why pray? God knows how you feel (knows your needs)?

Let me ask-are you a father? I would assume you know the needs of your children (or your father knows the needs of you). Does that mean the child should not converse with the father? Since the needs are known is there a reason to even ask for something? I say yes there is a need. A need for communion, conversation, a sharing of good and bad events. A father feels good when he can give to his children, he feels even better when they thank him for the provisions. Jesus said “ask and ye shall receive.” I take every opportunity to speak with my father and with God.

As far as “praying for your salvation”, you should be honored and not insulted. Salvation is the single most important thing in life. No matter what you’ve done, do, or become matters if there is no salvation because there will be nothing left, nothing to carry on. By simply asking Christ to be your Lord and Savior you will secure you’re eternal life and everything will be given to you.

Yes, I am a Father and no I don't know how my children feel or what they really need. I am not God, only God can see into people's minds and hearts with surety. I don't feel the relationship between God and Humans is a Father-Child relationship. That is a Christian idea. God is God and we are one of his many creations.

Tim

[No_1]

Did anyone make the claim you had to attend church or give in the offering to be saved? I don't remember reading that.

Nobody mentioned it on the thread, it was a question.


it says do not forsake the assembling of yourselves . if one doesn't meet on sunday (the lord's day) to worship God then just when would someone take the time to worship God. i'd say "go ahead pick a time . i'll pick sunday because that is where christians meet and i want to be with them to fellowship and worship God together and to grow in Christ. how many other countries would love to have the privilege that we have just to be able to worship together without fear? the bible does not say one has to give in the plate to believe in God. one gives what he/she desires to give, it does talk about the cheerful giver. to find these things one must be in the word continually, it's all in there.

Agreed, worship whenever the mood strikes.


Anyone who "believes" that is Biblical illiterate. Scriptue doesn't say it so anyone who does say it has no idea of what the Bible says.

Now, if by "the same reward" you mean entry in heaven is the same reward for everyone, yes, you're right. But, if you mean everyone obtains the same rewards IN heaven, you are wrong. There will be a great judgement day to reward those Christians who lived rightly and I believe those rewards will be significant.



In the simplest terms, yes, that's "all" that's required to be eternally saved. But it's not quite that simple; that spoken profession of faith MUST be sincere, simply mouthing the words will accomplish nothing.



Book of Opinions, first chapter, first verse? (I believe Opinions is probably the most often quoted book in the Bible.

BUT, if you can't find it in YOUR Bible, forget all that nice to do stuff as opinionated nonsense because, so far as it goes for salvation, not one point on that list is in the Bible!.



You're right but with a stipulation; for three years Jesus held a series of theology lessons for the apostles in the ways of an outdoor symanary. What He said was always important but remember it wasn't a formal "sabbath day church meeting" every time He opened his mouth so your time and location analogy is a bit off.

Thanks for your response but I can't even wrap my head around the "Book of Opinions" as I have not seen nor read it.

[1hole]

Thanks for your response but I can't even wrap my head around the "Book of Opinions" as I have not seen nor read it.

It's joke my friend. A joke aimed at the many who say, "the Bible says .... " and then spout things the Bible does NOT say, just opinions of what they think it says or wish it said. And, by doing that, they make "opinions" the single most quoted (and the most outlandish) "book" of the Bible. :)

[popper]

After I pray I wonder why I am praying. First thing Tim has said that makes any sense. As the only thing he 'believes' is that a 'supreme being' created the earth (per Tim, not a miracle) and the 'supreme being' only acts on earth through 'natural' occurrences; who is there to pray to and what to pray for? Per Tim, what 'good' is God providing for the earth and us? Kung Flu? Earthquakes, pestilence? If those occur 'naturally' and God isn't going to do anything about them, yes, what good is 'prayer'?
Don't know Tim, never met him, just trying to get him to see his mistake. His opinion is that a super-being is out there chuckling at our silliness.

[JohnChrysostom]

You've been insistent that no one even think you may be a Christian and you don't at all care what scripture says so I wonder why you pretend to care what Christians believe. I mean, you've consistently made it clear you don't believe anything we believe so why pose more questions simply to make a rhetorical platform for you to posture on; why not just write what you want the world to hear about what you think and be done with it?

Amen and a Theist is not a Christian and i see a lot of openly Christian users here, the OP is deluded lol

[dtknowles]

Amen and a Theist is not a Christian and i see a lot of openly Christian users here, the OP is deluded lol

All Christians are theists

NOUN
theists (plural noun)
a person who believes in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.

You are using the word wrong.

deism
NOUN
belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe.

atheist
NOUN
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Tim

[Blackwater]

DT, you so often ask questions that seem to reveal that you've never really given your life to Christ. You try to "reason it out" by virtue of the facilities in your head. But reason alone will never lead to understanding or accepting Christ. To come to Christ, one must use ALL the facilities that were given to us by God. Do you think that if we were created by God, that we would not have a tiny bit of that divinity within us, that always seeks the greater glory of the maker? Intuitively, for lack of a better word, we KNOW whence comes our salfation and grace. We just have to learn to understand that, and part of it lies within our power to reason, but that alone will never be enough to truly understand and accept Christ. Have you ever wondered why agnostics and atheists so often use reason alone to address the subject of God and Christ? It's because with that alone, one can never find the Lord, nor understand His ways. He is NOT like us. He is different, and very, very far beyond our meager existence on this earth. He is eternal and everlasting. That alone separates Him from us mere mortals. He is our literal and symbolic "Father," and the Father of all that is in our limited cosmos. Never will anyone understand or come to Christ using ONLY their minds. The mind us very useful, and I'd say required, in understanding Him and Salvation and so much more. And I believe Christ EXPECTS us to use our big brains in the pursuit of understanding Him and His ways. But to think that our ability to reason alone is sufficient to understand the Lord is pure folly, for it negates and neglects the whole of what God has given us to perceive Him and His ways. Only by using ALL our faculties can we ever hope to glean at least a glimmer or two of Him and His ways. And believe it or not, if we pray and diligently seek wisdom and understanding, He'll provide it to us. There are a number of questions I'd long pursued, but I approached them from the wrong perspective. Then one day, when I wasn't really thinking about anything, I had an epiphany, and God himself revealed the answers to me. And when He did, I was embarassed that the true answers were so simple, that they should have reached out and grabbed me! But that's the way it often is. We block out the answers that we really don't WANT to know - not really. Knowing might curb our behaviors that we so enjoy. It might make us look foolish, and in this day and age, looking foolish is a social "sin" of the highest order. But diligence and consistency can and will reveal the true answers to us .... but only if we're consistent and very diligent and serious about wanting the answers. I suspect that often, we don't find the true answers because we're quite satisfied to settle for some truism that lets us continue on our way as before, and doesn't change our lives significantly and permanently. But if we only knew how wonderful and satisfying it is to become a mature Christian, we'd be quite different than what we now are, for most of us. Belief is one thing. Attaining the grace of full commitment is quite another. You will never be so completely satisfied and "happy" as when you give your life completely to Christ, and follow His directions and advice to the very best of your ability. It is the most wonderful thing you'll ever experience, IF you allow yourself to experience it, and don't keep blocking His grace and understanding out and glossing over it.

But God gave us all a free will, and we can accept or reject His salvation at will, for whatever reasons we choose. It is sad to see those who reject His grace try to convince us who really know that they are "superior" to us because they deny what we all inwardly know is really true.

[1hole]

It is sad to see those who reject His grace try to convince us who really know that they are "superior" to us because they deny what we all inwardly know is really true.

Yep.

Smug atheist experts rarely learn anymore than they already know but don't understand about God. They can't afford to learn much about God; eddicated innerlecshuls admitting they're wrong about God would prove they aren't (and never were) the "know it alls" they want us "lesser beings" to believe.

Those who consider themselves too innerlecsul to believe in God would do well to read Josh McGowell's excellent book, EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT.

[dtknowles]

DT, you so often ask questions...….but God gave us all a free will, and we can accept or reject His salvation at will, for whatever reasons we choose. It is sad to see those who reject His grace try to convince us who really know that they are "superior" to us because they deny what we all inwardly know is really true.

Have I ever talked down to anyone here or belittled them like some have often belittled me?

Have I ever claimed that I am "superior" to anyone here?

Aren't you the one claiming to be "superior" when you say "us who really know," aren't you the one claiming "superior" knowledge.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Yep.

Smug atheist experts rarely learn anymore than they already know but don't understand about God. They can't afford to learn much about God; eddicated innerlecshuls admitting they're wrong about God would prove they aren't (and never were) the "know it alls" they want us "lesser beings" to believe.

Those who consider themselves too innerlecsul to believe in God would do well to read Josh McGowell's excellent book, EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT.

So you don't believe that I believe in God? If I don't believe in God they way you believe in God then you don't think I believe in God but the fact is there is but one God, the creator of all things.

Tim

[sharps4590]

Wow.....amazing.

[Blackwater]

Have I ever talked down to anyone here or belittled them like some have often belittled me?

Have I ever claimed that I am "superior" to anyone here?

Aren't you the one claiming to be "superior" when you say "us who really know," aren't you the one claiming "superior" knowledge.

Tim

Nope, but I can see how you'd see it that way. I have never put myself above or beyond anyone. Just defending my own personal beliefs. That's all. Why would you not expect that from those who think differently from you??? Your collection of this and that from various sources is a hodge podge of beliefs that suit you. They could never satisfy most people, who'd see them more naturally for what they are. You've said previously that you were brought up as a catholic. I don't know where you got your theology from, though. The catholic theology I read is perfectly acceptable to any segment of Christianity, except when it comes to a few of their ceremonies, and the concept of intercession, which I believe in, but don't limit it to Mother Mary.

You so often seem to be out to disprove what we "normal" Christians believe. That's been tried many, many times before, but more learned and capable people than anyone here among the disbelievers. I'm not worried in the least. I have my truths, that I've been fortunate enough to acquire, and which I regard as sufficient unto the day of judgment. Others have what they have, just as you have what you've chosen to have for yourself. The only way to know how effective each is, is to wait to judgment day, and see who gains admission into Heaven, and who's deemed unfit for entry. But that's a rather final and harsh way to find out, isn't it? That's why I believe that when God breathed the breath of life into man, He also breathed into us the certain knowledge, intuitively, of who made us and what we're to do here. But that's MY perception, and it doesn't necessarily have to be yours or anyone else's. You have to go your own way, but I have to think one should be very, very careful, lest they fall into belief of erroneous and possibly even evil thoughts. After all, Satan is real, and he's having a heyday in our times. I just wish you all the best.

[dtknowles]

Nope, but I can see how you'd see it that way. I have never put myself above or beyond anyone. Just defending my own personal beliefs. That's all. Why would you not expect that from those who think differently from you??? Your collection of this and that from various sources is a hodge podge of beliefs that suit you. They could never satisfy most people, who'd see them more naturally for what they are. You've said previously that you were brought up as a catholic. I don't know where you got your theology from, though. The catholic theology I read is perfectly acceptable to any segment of Christianity, except when it comes to a few of their ceremonies, and the concept of intercession, which I believe in, but don't limit it to Mother Mary.

You so often seem to be out to disprove what we "normal" Christians believe. That's been tried many, many times before, but more learned and capable people than anyone here among the disbelievers. I'm not worried in the least. I have my truths, that I've been fortunate enough to acquire, and which I regard as sufficient unto the day of judgment. Others have what they have, just as you have what you've chosen to have for yourself. The only way to know how effective each is, is to wait to judgment day, and see who gains admission into Heaven, and who's deemed unfit for entry. But that's a rather final and harsh way to find out, isn't it? That's why I believe that when God breathed the breath of life into man, He also breathed into us the certain knowledge, intuitively, of who made us and what we're to do here. But that's MY perception, and it doesn't necessarily have to be yours or anyone else's. You have to go your own way, but I have to think one should be very, very careful, lest they fall into belief of erroneous and possibly even evil thoughts. After all, Satan is real, and he's having a heyday in our times. I just wish you all the best.

I was brought up Catholic and rejected it and a lot of this discussion is by way of explaining why I rejected Catholicism and Christianity. Having rejected Catholicism and Christianity, I set about to understand what I believed and it led me to my current beliefs, my current Theology, which I enjoy discussing here.

If you go back years you and I have been talking about this on this site for a long time. I believe I understand where you stand but you still don't seem to grasp where I stand. I guess I just have not been clear.

You said "Your collection of this and that from various sources is a hodge podge of beliefs that suit you." That is correct. I hope to find the best ideas no matter where they come from. Do you believe that all wisdom comes from the Bible?

Tim

[sharps4590]

I was brought up Catholic and rejected it and a lot of this discussion is by way of explaining why I rejected Catholicism and Christianity. Having rejected Catholicism and Christianity, I set about to understand what I believed and it led me to my current beliefs, my current Theology, which I enjoy discussing here.



Tim

Which goes directly back to what I said on page 1. Whether knowingly or admittedly you have set yourself up as your own god. You have decided what you will believe, you aren't guided by anything other than the "hodge podge" mentioned by Blackwater. You ARE cherry picking any and everything to do with Christianity. You say you believe in God yet you demand that He meet your requirements, not the other way around.

There's been a lot of flat out lying about the Bible on this thread by those who think as the Muslims do, that it's been corrupted. Spurious sources have been mentioned to attempt to disprove the accuracy of the Bible. It's amusing that the more archaeology tries to disprove it, the more it is proven by archaeology.

[DCP]

Which goes directly back to what I said on page 1. Whether knowingly or admittedly you have set yourself up as your own god. You have decided what you will believe, you aren't guided by anything other than the "hodge podge" mentioned by Blackwater. You ARE cherry picking any and everything to do with Christianity. You say you believe in God yet you demand that He meet your requirements, not the other way around.

There's been a lot of flat out lying about the Bible on this thread by those who think as the Muslims do, that it's been corrupted. Spurious sources have been mentioned to attempt to disprove the accuracy of the Bible. It's amusing that the more archaeology tries to disprove it, the more it is proven by archaeology.

:goodpost:

He has openly admitted that he is here trying to convert folks. That makes him a false prophet. This is a family site so why is it that he is given a soapbox to preach from? You cant curse or have a link with cursing in it. I find it ironic.

[1hole]

So you don't believe that I believe in God?

Tim

Oh, I think - in fact I know - you believe in A god but you obviously don't believe in God.

Not intending to be offensive to anyone but to say it straight out, I am a Bible trusting Christian who can readily understand how/why you came to reject the institution of the Roman Catholic Church and, from that, how you also came to reject Christianity but that's not a rational extension; the RCC is a religion all its own and simply does not accurately represent true and Biblical Christianity.

The sooner you accept the reality of the disconnect between the RCC and Christianity (and completely turn loose the understandable spiritual disappointments of your past) the sooner you can stop trying to invent an acceptable god and religion in your own image and actually seek God.

[dtknowles]

Which goes directly back to what I said on page 1. Whether knowingly or admittedly you have set yourself up as your own god. You have decided what you will believe, you aren't guided by anything other than the "hodge podge" mentioned by Blackwater. You ARE cherry picking any and everything to do with Christianity. You say you believe in God yet you demand that He meet your requirements, not the other way around.

There's been a lot of flat out lying about the Bible on this thread by those who think as the Muslims do, that it's been corrupted. Spurious sources have been mentioned to attempt to disprove the accuracy of the Bible. It's amusing that the more archaeology tries to disprove it, the more it is proven by archaeology.

I don't "demand that He (God) meet your (my) requirements" I tailor my beliefs according to the evidence. Oh, why do you refer to God as he. God is God, I don't expect that gender is appropriate.

What spurious sources are you talking about? Please be specific. Archaeology does not try to disprove the Bible? Archaeology is a science, its goal it to explore for the truth. Do you believe that Archaeologist are out to disprove the Bible? I would guess that a lot of Archaeologists are Christians.

Tim

[dtknowles]

:goodpost:

He has openly admitted that he is here trying to convert folks. That makes him a false prophet. This is a family site so why is it that he is given a soapbox to preach from? You cant curse or have a link with cursing in it. I find it ironic.

That is right I am trying to get more people to focus on doing good things here on Earth while they are alive instead of just thinking that believing in Jesus and praying more is more important than doing good works and not sinning. What do you think I am doing that is not appropriate for a family site.

How do you know I am a false prophet? God put me here. How do you know my message is not God's message?

Don't you think calling me a "false prophet" is an insult. Do you know what the rules say about insulting other forum members?

Tim

[dtknowles]

Oh, I think - in fact I know - you believe in A god but you obviously don't believe in God.

Not intending to be offensive to anyone but to say it straight out, I am a Bible trusting Christian who can readily understand how/why you came to reject the institution of the Roman Catholic Church and, from that, how you also came to reject Christianity but that's not a rational extension; the RCC is a religion all its own and simply does not accurately represent true and Biblical Christianity.

The sooner you accept the reality of the disconnect between the RCC and Christianity (and completely turn loose the understandable spiritual disappointments of your past) the sooner you can stop trying to invent an acceptable god and religion in your own image and actually seek God.

You don't seem to understand that there is only one God. The God who created the Universe. You should consider thinking about God and Religion as two separate things. I am not trying to create a religion. Have you once seen me say please join my new religion. I am saying change your ways and focus on doing more good. That you choose to worship God in a different way than I do or than others do does not change God. It only changes the way you practice your worship. I am not inventing God, I am rejecting a religious belief, like you have rejected Islam or Roman Catholic Christianity. I am rejecting religion in general. Religions separate people into groups and cause strife and elitism. I am rejecting all of Christianity, the Reformation did not correct much of the problems with Christianity. I reject the idea that sins can be forgive by any other means than restitution. Even punishment does not create forgiveness only by repairing the damage can you achieve forgiveness. Punishment might be vengeance and does not lead to forgiveness. If punishing someone gives you satisfaction then something is wrong with you. Punishment can be proper as it may cause deterrence and prevent worse wrongs but you should not feel good about punishing anyone.

Tim

[dtknowles]

:goodpost:

He has openly admitted that he is here trying to convert folks. That makes him a false prophet. This is a family site so why is it that he is given a soapbox to preach from? You cant curse or have a link with cursing in it. I find it ironic.

I don't curse (use words that the site prohibits.) You actual can curse on this site if you don't use bad words. Kind of depends on your meaning for the word curse. I admit to trying to get people to change their behavior but I never said that they should not go to the church of their choice. A lot of people here have tried to convert me.

How come you complain about me trying to convert others but you don't complain when others try to convert me?

Tim

[Blackwater]

In answer to the original question, regardiing how God intervenes in this world, I personally don't think it matters "how" He does it. I doubt we even have the ability to perceive HOW He does it. All that matters, really, is that He DOES indeed intervene in this world. The Bible speaks of many interventions, and those who can't or won't see them today, are simply determined not to see them. I've seen actual miracles before. Truly, He intervenes MUCH more than we realize He does. We're just so often blinded to it because our focus lies elsewhere. But it's there, if only we'll allow ourselves to see it.