Alliant STEEL Powder w/ Slugs, Lead, Revolver?

[Caretaker]

I have been loading Alliant STEEL this year in Federal Gold Medal Hulls 2 3/4 with RSI SAM 1 wads and steel shot for waterfowl and target loads. Works well, only complaint is how LOUD it is.

I have a 7/8 ounce LEE Slug mold and cast up some air cooled WWs with it and got slugs that weigh 435 grains (basically an ounce)

Anyway, in my quest to ever simplify my reloading I was wondering if any of you have any data or experience with using STEEL powder for slugs. I am looking for a loading to use in a smoothbore for hogs and deer <75 yards.

My slugs do not fit in the RSI wads, so I will have to use another wad but I would like to develop something with the Gold Medal Hulls and STEEL powder if possible.

Also anybody use STEEL powder for .357 revolver with 158 grain cast?

If STEEL is really only a non-toxic shotshell powder I may decide to switch to Blue Dot.

While I am at it, anybody found a steel wad that works with the Lee slugs? Maybe the Ranger?

[turbo1889]

Yes, under certain conditions you can get Steel powder to work nicely for slugs. First you need a hard rigid base under your slug -- we are talking hard card wads here not the flimsy cushion sections used in lead shot wads (Even the Fed "S" series wads just aren’t stiff enough). Every see a steel shot wad with a cushion section and loads for it using Steel powder ???? I think you get my drift. Next up it works best for heavy slugs -- the heavier the better. I've got it to work with the Lyman 525gr. wad-slug and heavier slugs in the 12ga. and it works fine with solid lead 1-oz. "square" slugs out of the 20ga. but I'm not sure if the Lee slugs will be heavy enough to make it work well. Next up is where to start for your load. Find some load data for your slugs that use Blue Dot and cut out the cushion section of the wad and fill that area up with a stack of hard card instead. Leave the plastic gas seal over the powder and the wad petal part around the slug but the cushion section in-between has to go !!! Next up use the same number of grains of Steel as the load data calls for with Blue-Dot and work up as necessary.

Above all be careful, if you choose to follow this path you will be out there in "no published load data land" -- I've been there and came back just fine but no guarantee the same will hold true for you.

[Caretaker]

turbo,

Thanks for wading in on this. I'd like to pick your brain a little more...

Tell me more about why no cushion section? Do you have experience with shooting STEEL with the cushion? What happened? Was it with the Fed S series wads that people recommend for Lee slugs?

I thought cushions were to take up space and did not have to do with powder effectiveness.

I checked on this a little by looking at my "Status of Steel" manual from Balistics Products. They do make a cushioned steel wad. Their cushioned steel wad is called the "Cushioned Shot Driver" or "CSD" with various amounts of cushion for 1 1/8, 1 and 7/8 ounce loads. They list recipes with STEEL powder for various hulls in 12 and 20 gauge. All cushion not the same?

Status of Steel has a nice recipe for the the Federal Gold Medal 2 3/4 (which is the hull I use and like). It uses the 1 ounce CSD with 33 grains of STEEL powder for 9,500 PSI and 1,480 fps. Seems like a nice load. They also state that the CSD has thinner walls than the typical steel wad. Maybe enough room to fit my slug? I think I will have to get my hands on one of those CSD 100 wads.

But back to other parts of your post. You say to start with the same amount of powder as a Blue Dot loading and work up. Looking at my loading manuals, there are not a lot of direct comparisons between STEEL and Blue Dot but several that are close. STEEL seems to achieve a little higher velocities than Blue Dot with lower pressures and equal or a little more powder. Following my understanding of powders, I would say STEEL is a little slower. So your recommendation makes sense to me.

Taking the next step with that I looked at Lee's recipes for their slug and they have one with the Federal Gold medal, hot 209A primer, WAA12 wad (cushioned?) and 49 grains of Blue Dot. That's a lot of powder. I can match that recipe with my changes being a regular 209 primer and STEEL instead of Blue Dot. I would probably start with quite a bit less powder though.

Working through this, I guess the bottom line question I have is how is STEEL powder different from Blue Dot? Can STEEL be safely interchanged with Blue Dot. I think I will call Alliant. Thoughts? Anybody?

[Caretaker]

Just got off the phone with Alliant. Nice people. The man I talked to said that they tried using STEEL in 44 magnum and it did not produce consistent results so they didn't explore farther. He said mag pistol pressures of 30-40K are different on powders than shotgun pressures of 7-12K and it's tough to find a powder that will perform consistently with high velocity in both of those pressure ranges. Make sense?

He also said they do not recommend Blue Dot for steel shot loads. These loads were developed by others. They only recommend STEEL powder. Basically because STEEL gives the best results so why recommend anything else. And only use 209A primers with STEEL powder. If you use regular 209s he said there is a very rare risk of a blooper from the primer not getting a good start on the powder.

We talked about dropping slugs in shot cups and using shot load recipes, and that lead pellets, lead slugs/balls, and steel shot react differently and will have some affect on results if you start interchanging recipes. He said steel needs a thicker shot cup to protect the barrel and get a good seal. Lead pellets and even lead LEE/foster type slugs deform some to seal the barrel so are more forgiving when it comes to getting consistent pressure curves and results.

We then talked about cushioned wads. He said cushion is usually about taking up space, but that with a slow powder like STEEL cushiony lead wads might not give you as good/consistent a pressure curve, especially when using a hard slug/round ball or steel shot which will not deform to seal up the barrel. So by this thinking hard based wads would be best for hard slugs/balls and steel shot. Steel cushion wads are not so cushiony so they might be OK.

I left it at that.

I was surpirsed how willing they were to talk about going beyond published data.

[runfiverun]

most powder companies are willing to talk like this.
i really think they love their jobs and are like us as far as the reloading part.
but what he said makes perfect sense.
you can look in bpi's book for those column builders like whatthey use under the two-piece wads.
with your slugs all you really need is to seal the gasses behind it.
if you are using a rifled tube you might have to clean it some or use a thinner wall
two piece wad.
it all depends on how far you wanna go.
shotgun re-loading is as complicated as cast rifle or pistol if you want to get that far into it.
but shooting a load of # 5's at 1500 fps is kinda cool.
and you can go further if you want, 1700 outta a shotgun is realistic.

steel powder opened a whole new world. but you have to weigh it out. it don't meter worth a crap.

[mikenbarb]

I have talked extensively with Lee alot about their keyed slugs and they ONLY recommend using their data supplied with them because of excessive pressure problems with using other components. I like a couple loads they list with great results out to 150yds.
I think Alliant has 3 or 4 loads listed for the Lee 7/8oz slug.

[turbo1889]

Caretaker, From what I see you called the manufacture and they confirmed some of what I have learned from my own field experience. I will try to address some of your questions and add a little bit of my own experience and further explanation with a big disclaimer that I'm not a ballistic engineer.

Q~ How does Steel differ from Blue Dot ???

Response ~ On every burn rate sheet I've ever seen that has both of them on it Steel is slower then Blue Dot at least in low pressure burn. This, however, is not the only and I would dare to say not even the most important difference. The second, and I believe more important difference is that Steel has less of a "Snow Ball Effect (SBE)" then Blue Dot. Take a snow ball to the top of a mountain in soft wet snow and get it rolling down hill -- It will get bigger as it rolls down hill (better hope your house isn't at the bottom of the mountain). When powder starts burning inside a guns barrel the exact same thing happens with pressure. Existing pressure drives pressure up even further until either the gun blows up, the bullet leaves the muzzle and there is an escape point for the pressure, or all the powder has been burned up. Some powders have a very high SBE and are very prone to pressure spikes others "spool up" much more gradually. Some people don't understand this and think the only main difference between powders is the burn rate -- Wrong!!! Classic example is H-110 which definitely is a slower burning powder then Blue Dot. Above about 20-K pressure, however, it has a much bigger SBE factor then Blue Dot and will most definitely spike sometimes violently and explosively especially with reduced loads. Load yourself some 44-mag rounds with the stuff and use a 20% reduced load and your liable to blow yourself to kingdom come (manufacture actually says don't reduce below 5% for safety).

What that all boils down to in my experience is that Steel although only slightly slower then Blue Dot has a noticeably lower SBE factor. Basically the comparison would be like having two big block truck engines that are both built for high low end torque (thing of torque vs. rpm as your burn rate). One of them has just slightly more low end torque then the other and it's also a diesel and the other is standard gas guzzler --- which one is going to spool up quicker when the throttle is opened up ??? That spool up rate is analogous to the SBE factor.

Following that analogy --- you are just fine swapping out the diesel engine for gas engine originally in your truck (i.e. load data) and the truck will still have the same if not more towing power. However, the new diesel engine will be much happier if it's run with a steady heavy load. Same thing with Steel powder compared to Blue Dot. Now lets say we have a light weight compact sized truck and we still want to use the diesel engine but we want to gofast. How do we get this and still provide that engine with the nice steady heavy load it likes to run on? It's known as "Over-Drive" -- we gear the trans. so that a high-torque / low-RPM input comes out at the wheels as a low-torque / high-RPM output and thus we put an artificial load on the engine and get our extra speed to boot in the process. Same thing needs to be done with Steel powder for best results -- stiffen up that cushion and put a firm steady load on the powder burn and if necessary use more powder to keep the loading on the powder nice and heavy where it needs to be. Steel shot in and of itself even without consideration for the usually un-cushioned wads used provides more resistance and a “heavier load” then and equivalent lead shot load.

Yes -- You can use the stiffest of the stiff Fed "S" series wads the 12S4 successfully as it is without replacing the cushion with nitro cards -- but if do make the replacement and keep every thing else the same with the load the velocity goes up and Standard Deviation goes down. When replacing the cushion section I prefer to use the Win. wads because they are the easiest to cut the cushion section out of.

I hope that adds to the solution and understanding and doesn’t muddy the waters even more.

[Bullshop]

So your sayin if I want to burn alliant steel I need to drive a diesel? How about if I am only using it in my 22 ccm?
BIC/BS

[turbo1889]

So your sayin if I want to burn alliant steel I need to drive a diesel? How about if I am only using it in my 22 ccm?
BIC/BS

:groner: :killingpc

Okay, I guess that answers the question about whether I just muddied the waters even more or not.

Basically what I'm saying is that Blue Dot is like a big block gas engine and Steel is like a deisel engine. Both are good for heavy loads but deisels run better when their loaded down and they don't "spool up" as fast as gas engines when you shove the pedal to the metal. Same thing is true with Steel -- you have to keep it loaded down and burn pressure doesn't build up as quickly.

And No --- there is no rule about what powder you are allowed to use based on what engine is in your truck. I was just using the analogy that makes the most sense to me. But then I'm pretty mechanically minded.

Now specifically in refrence to your 22-CCM at least compared to the load data I was able to locate for that cartridge Steel looks like it would be a little faster burning then the powders usually recommended for that round. However, considering Steel powder needs to be run hard to work properly and has good resistance to pressure spiking it could be a good choice for cast bullet loads at slightly reduced velocity in said cartridge.

[Bullshop]

So I dont need a diesel, GREAT! I am glad to hear that because its gonna be hard to convert our 1987 Dodge Dakota 4cyl.
I was not too concerned with loading shot because I cant fit enough in the Cooper case for good paterns.
You are right though about it working good for 45gn boolits.
Blessings on ya
BIC/BS

[mikenbarb]

WOW! My heads spinning from all that motor talk.LOL.
Heres what you need for a nice 1oz. Lee slug load,
Lee 1oz. keyed slug,
Federal Gold Medal hull,
Federal 209 primer,
49.0gr. Blue Dot powder,
WAA12 wad.
I am taking this load out to 150yds and shooting approx. 4-5" groups with it at that range.

[SWIAFB]

Daniel, your lookinng for a 32 super single six ? Yu All BE A TWO GUN Akaskun. Next thing u no yu all will be looking to in herit an asporly aimless. Sorry for the high jack SWIAFB

[runfiverun]

what he is saying is that steel burns all the way down the bbl
hence the louder boom you heard.

[Bullshop]

Anytime anybody comes out with any powder with a burn rate anywhere between blue dot and 680 it gets a work out in the Cooper. Steel is about right for burn rate but didnt meter well. I dont like weighing each charge but if I didnt mind it would be real good. You guys gotta remember I am throwing way smaller charges than you and in the small case 1/10th gn makes a big differance.
You guys tried longshot on your slug quest? Burn rate should be about right.
BIC/BS

[44mag1]

as for using steel in anything other then a shotgun, I do it all the time. any data that calls for 2400 I use the steel powder in the same volume. For example if a load for a 357 calls for 15 grains of 2400 and the same volume of steel is 10 grains then I start my load with 10 grains of steel. I use it in rifles with cast bullet too. the only thing Ive used it in and had less then satisfactory results is 44 mag. one of the best 10mm powders Ive found

[runfiverun]

i weighed out a bunch of 12 gr loads for my 45 colt with a 250 gr boolit.
nuthing wrong with that load but it wasn't better than any other.

[Airman Basic]

as for using steel in anything other then a shotgun, I do it all the time. any data that calls for 2400 I use the steel powder in the same volume. For example if a load for a 357 calls for 15 grains of 2400 and the same volume of steel is 10 grains then I start my load with 10 grains of steel. I use it in rifles with cast bullet too. the only thing Ive used it in and had less then satisfactory results is 44 mag. one of the best 10mm powders Ive found
I know this is an old thread, but I just picked up a keg of Steel and am researching it with handguns. Is the quote saying that a volumetric measure like Little Dandy that throws a stated charge of 2400 would be a starting point for Steel using the same rotor? Just trying to get a handle on this stuff.

[FullTang]

I have used Steel in many shotgun loads (with varying degrees of success); the caveat with this powder is that it doesn't meter well---you're supposed to weigh out each charge. I haven't found it to be especially bad. There is some variation in weight when measuring out by volume, but it's close enough. I've also been considering using it in place of Blue Dot and 2400 in .357 loads---just haven't tried it yet. It is true that it needs a magnum primer in shotgun loads, or you will get bloopers for sure. I'll start with magnum pistol primers when I do start experimenting in handgun loads.

[hithard]

I've shot thousands of Steel powder loads in the duck blind, only using the 209's not the A's. I've had a few bloobers that barely made it out the end of the barrel. But I seriously suspect they were water logged, happen's when you fall face first in the drink. Yes , it was really cold.