Cowboy shooting..mimimum power limits?

[Limey]

I really like Cowboy Action Shooting.

Just been surfing the web looking at a lot of Cowboy Action shooting videos and it struck me that lot's of people can shoot those old style guns really fast.......BUT.......there is hardly any noise and next to no recoil.

I understand that the calibres are .32 through to .45's but is there no lower limit to which ammo must be used/reloaded?........seems people are going for scores and forgetting reality.......if you are trying to recreate an era with all the costumes etc why not do it with full bore ammo as well to get real authentity?

It seemed that the only guns that were firing full power ammo were the shotguns!

.....but I have to say that anybody shooting BP seemed to be doing it for real......lotta noise, lotta recoil, lotta smoke and flame!!!!

Safe shooting

Limey

[mooman76]

Yes it is my understanding there is no lower limit but there is a limit on cart. size. I have never done it myself but I think it should be at least a realistic power level. They shoot the low velocity rounds so there is little to no recoil. It's like shooting a 22. They have to be pistol caliber I don't remember the smallest size but it is something like 32.

[Tom Herman]

From what I understand, the issue of minimum/realistic loads is causing a division within CAS.
There is a clear division between those people that will download and use as small a caliber and loading as they can, and those people that use realistic loads.
People are getting disillusioned by those that take the low caliber approach.
It's unfortunately something that is likely to decrease interest in CAS in general, which will have ramifications for the rest of us.
If interest falls off in it, we may no longer see further reproductions of classic arms, and we all lose.
As for me, I want no part of something that would allow ultra light loads in competition, violating the spirit of the matter.
Just my two cents worth....

Happy Shootin'! -Tom


I really like Cowboy Action Shooting.

Just been surfing the web looking at a lot of Cowboy Action shooting videos and it struck me that lot's of people can shoot those old style guns really fast.......BUT.......there is hardly any noise and next to no recoil.

I understand that the calibres are .32 through to .45's but is there no lower limit to which ammo must be used/reloaded?........seems people are going for scores and forgetting reality.......if you are trying to recreate an era with all the costumes etc why not do it with full bore ammo as well to get real authentity?

It seemed that the only guns that were firing full power ammo were the shotguns!

.....but I have to say that anybody shooting BP seemed to be doing it for real......lotta noise, lotta recoil, lotta smoke and flame!!!!

Safe shooting

Limey

[crabo]

I think the boolit has to exit the barrel.....

[MtGun44]

Actually, the exit the barrel part is just incidental. It has to make a noise
on the steel target. If they can figure a way to not exit the barrel, they'll
do it. :roll:

Bill

[mooman76]

That's a shame too! I have always toyed with the idea of getting into it. it just looks like allot of fun and that's all it would be for me. If I shoot good, great but if I shot fun all the better. One reason I like it is because of the lax rules. Some sports have so many rules it makes it hard to get into them and it takes all the fun out when you do. There are always some that have to take advantage of something or the lack a something in this case. Maybe it will force CAS to change the rules abit.

[76 WARLOCK]

I have always wanted to try CAS but I will not down load my 44/40's so I gave up the idea.

[EDK]

Going to a SASS/CAS shoot is supposed to be fun. There's always someone trying to screw things up...look at the IPSC controversies. Some of the rules are a treat, such as no BISLEY hammers unless it has a BISLEY grip frame also. They get wired about some external modifications and let all the internal things slide! COWS can get some anal too.

I shot SUPER BLACK HAWKS and BISLEYS in 44...250 grain boolit and 5.5-to-6.5 of TITEGROUP...what I shoot every day. I have since switched to similar VAQUEROS and BISLEY VAQUEROS, but similar loads. Some other competitors act like I was shooting a 500 S&W or full magnum loads....if they want to shoot a 22 short, go for it! I shoot what I consider a good everyday field load that is accurate and shoots to point of aim in my guns; a load that would severly damage anything I need to shoot.

Mike Venturino, Massad Ayoob and John Taffin have all done magazine articles on this, if my memory serves. They WERE NOT part of the light load shooters. Ayoob went so far as to call it "good tactical training" and a socially acceptable form of the SOLDIER OF FORTUNE style three gun matches. "Who is going to get upset about playing cowboy?"

Another pet peeve is the black powder rifle competitions. There's a weight limit, but the historical books mention "16 pound, 50/90 SHARPS rifles" belonging to Jim White and some other prominent buffalo hunters....and they aren't legal since day 1.

Join up, go shoot and have a good time. Compete with yourself for your personal best...and if some gamer beats you with his pea shooter, console yourself with the thought someone with a real gun would have put him six foot under if it was for real. Given a choice, I'll use my 44s...and improve my skills while having a good time and trying to impress the girls.

:lovebooli:Fire::redneck:

[bdoyle]

I shot Cowboy Action for a few years. It was a lot of fun but I never backed down my loads. I shot 45 colt, 255gr @900fps. The gamers can do as they wish. I could never get the hang of cocking the hammer with the other thumb. I wanted enough recoil that I could cock the revolver as the gun lowered to the next target. Not the fastest but I warrent the slowest either.
Brian

[Pepe Ray]

Unfortunately it's the nature of man, or at least too many.
I was attracted to the "sport" back in the early 90's. I visited a few matches but could see that "gamesmanship" would soon take over. I went thru this back in the "70's with IHMSA.
The shooting sports will grow to a peak until the original crowd becomes disillusioned with the changes and the population begins to abandon the sport.
The sport doesn't disappear but sorta stabilizes with a crowd that has lost it's luster.

The aspect of mans nature that causes "gamesmanship" is the same as that which got Obama elected.
Just one man's opinion. Pepe Ray

[Little Doc]

:Dhowdy folks,
if i may digres a bit. i have been shooting cas for 10+ years now. there seems to be those who want to go fast and have the tgts real close. they are looked down on by those who can't go fast or won't try. then there those who load full loads and really ring the tgts. then you have those inbetween. and seperate from that are the ones who shoot black power. having said that if one does not try to be the velocity police or the target police or whatever police, there is fun to be had by all. if you compete with yourself and enjoy the day out shooting with others who enjoy the same thing there lotsa new friends to be made. lotsa gun talk and stories to trade. load info from others and by golly just a lot of fun to be had. i do not agree with all that is but try to do my best with what is there. many people see all these things different. i have shot on ranges with the pistol tgts as close as three yards. and the rifle tgts at fifteen yds. then i have shot ranges with the pistol tgts at fifteen yds and some rifle tgts at 70 to 110 yds. i guess the bottom line is this is a sport with great fun skill and diversity. something for each shooter. i don't think you can go to a golf tournement and play with Tiger W. but you sure as heck can go to a cowboy shoot and shoot with a national champ. and my experience is they are some of the nicest folks you could want to meet. i hope this does not step on any toes. just the way i see it. if you have not tried it you owe it to your self to give it a whirl. go to a shoot and get involved. tell everyone this is your first time and you are open to all the help anyone could give you. you may be suprised at the info, offers to shoot their guns etc. of course you may find the 1/100 grouch. if so shrub it off. he is probably having a personal problem. my rant is over.
little doc

[Calamity Jake]

I'm with Little Doc.
My handel(SASS handel too) says it all, I been doing the cas thing for over 15 years and have had a wonderful time form day 1, I shoot 45C and 44-40 along with a 12 gage.
I let the gamers do what what they want and play my own game. My wife and granddaughter loves it too.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

They have impossed a Power Factor in SASS in the last year. Doesn't apply to BP so I have no Idea how to calculate it as all I shoot is BP.

Sam :-D

[Scrounger]

I looked up the power factor Sam mentioned:

Shooters Handbook / Range Operations Basic Safety Course (Range Ops / ROI)

AMMUNITION

The minimum standard for center-fire ammunition used in all smokeless categories at State, Regional,

National, International and World Championship Competitions is not less than a minimum power factor

of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps. The maximum velocity standard for revolvers is 1000 fps.

The maximum velocity standard for rifles is 1400 fps. Pocket pistols, derringers, and long-range rifles are

exempt from the power factor and velocity requirements.

Power factors are simply calculated by multiplying the bullet weight times the velocity and then the

resulting number is divided by 1000. Some examples are as follows:

100 gr bullet traveling at 600 fps has a power factor of 60: (100x600)/1000=60.00

77 gr bullet traveling at 800 fps has a power factor of 61.6 (77x800)/1000=61.60

200 gr bullet traveling at 400 fps has a power factor of 80 (200x400)/1000=80.00

[Wicky]

I shoot CAS over here for the enjoyment and use loads that are just below the maximum velocities in the rule book. Thankfully no-one has gone for girly loads and it is a god feeling to win a shoot using manly loads that recoil a bit.:-D
Most blokes here use 44/40, 44 mag or 45LC's all with reasonable loads, there is only one 38 special being used.
We use a lot of steel plates including the steel poppers from the IPSC range when the boys ain't looking and local rules say the plates must fall over a hit does not constitute a score unless the target goes over. This doesn't sit well with the inter-staters that visit for shoots like the Masters Games but that's life.;)
I think if you want to shoot girly loads the have a precision match specifically for that endeavour!! not that precision can't be a fun shoot as well:Fire:

[Blackhawk Convertable]

Don't knock it until you've tried it. Good people and lots of fun.

[mooman76]

Don't knock it until you've tried it. Good people and lots of fun.

I don't think anyone here is trying to knock it, it's just that we or I hate to see someone taking advantage of a good thing. Looks like allot of fun to me. I started to get into the BP mountainman thing but moved and haven't gotten back into it but they told stories of people trying to ruin that sport too. Anyway I hope to see a SASS event in the near future in fact I heard the convention is coming to town here the first part of Dec.:Fire:

[44man]

We had the same type of problems shooting IHMSA with sights. Production meant as the gun comes from the factory, but a trigger job could be done. The Ruger sights are bad and cheap. If a more expensive gun was bought and it came with custom sights, the Ruger guys had to compete with them. Ruger refused to upgrade and you could not upgrade yourself. This caused a lot of friction.
I never thought it was fair to compete against a $2000 gun with a $300 Ruger and even though I beat all of them, it would have been easier with comparable sights. It boiled down to the guys with better vision winning. No one was on an even footing.
I can compete with anyone using super light loads for accuracy shooting full house .475's but there is no way to get the speed the whimp shooters get. Everyone should be even.

[Firebird]

I did Cowboy shooting for several years, and what I noticed is that it's biggest problems were caused by it being popular. When you have 60-75 or more people to get through shooting five or six stages, you don't have time to test everyone's ammo with a scale and a chronograph to set their power factor. You really don't even have time to use the knock-down style targets that were intended to force shooters to use more powerful ammo. Even now, with the new rules, someone has to have their ammo challenged before it's tested for power factor, or for black powder shooters for minimum smoke levels. Yes, even the black powder shooters have "gamers" in their midst who take a 38 Colt case and fill it half full of black powder, and half full of cream of wheat to reduce the recoil of their 90 grain bullets. And when you look at what people were actually shooting after the Civil war, none of the early cartridge firing arms were all that powerful. And by the time the Colt Single-Action and Winchester 1873 were produced in some numbers, you didn't go west on a wagon, you took a train.
But the biggest problem I had with them is the clothing police. I DON'T wear hats. And that caused me problems with some of the other shooters. That I used 41 Magnum Bisleys and a 1894 Marlin also in 41 Magnum wasn't really appreciated by some either, but so did one of the shoots organizers and another longtime shooter who had helped get it all going at that club so not much was said about my choice of caliber.

[crabo]

I can't see myself having to dress up to go shoot. It seems like for the most part, if you don't dress up, they don't want you to play. I know there are local matches that don't care if you dress or not.

[Calamity Jake]

Not dressing for the part played (CAS) is breaking the Spirit of the Game and SASS rules state you must make some atempt to dress the part. Plus that's part of the fun.
A lot of CA shooters get real serious about the dressing up part.

[waksupi]

The problem with the dressing up, most do thier research by watching B movies, rather than doing serious research.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I belong to three clubs here in western NC. We're beginning to address this issue with reactive targets that have to get knocked down, or have a "trigger plate" which releases a swinging target. This is causing the "Mouse Fart" guys to add a bit of powder to their loads. We also, usually at annual matches, have a long range (100yd) side match for pistol caliber rifles, or speed contests that require shooting lumber in two.
I think these are good ways to penalize those that won't shoot "real ammo" without changing rules, or causing friction.
Morgan

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Not dressing for the part played (CAS) is breaking the Spirit of the Game and SASS rules state you must make some atempt to dress the part. Plus that's part of the fun.
A lot of CA shooters get real serious about the dressing up part.

Yea, they call those "Style Points" Our "Carolina Belles", make their own costumes, but are no slouches in the shooting department.:Fire:
Morgan

[Cherokee]

Jeans, a western shirt of some sort, boots and a hat - that's full dress for me. 45Colt, Rugers and LA rifle, loaded to ACP levels is my load. This is what I shoot for everyday use as well. Some time I switch to my 32-20's or my 38 Specials just for variety, increases the fun. Lots of shooters faster than me but I have a good time and that is the way most of the shooters are. I shoot SASS because its fun for me.

[Russel Nash]

WARNING: this is my 2 cents coming from an IDPA, USPSA, and Steel Challenge competitor

If CAS shooters actually followed a minimum power factor, in my opinion (eyes) it would give CAS more legitimacy.

I have to roll my eyese :rolleyes: every time I see video of a CAS'er standing at the line banging and clanging rather quickly at some steel targets.

Upon closer inspection, he is shooting powder puff loads and the steel is within bayoneting range.

That and they can't shoot on the move.... yawn....

Western 3 gun looks like it would be more fun.

EDK on the first page wrote:


Going to a SASS/CAS shoot is supposed to be fun. There's always someone trying to screw things up...look at the IPSC controversies.

Okay, I'll bite. What IPSC controversies are you talking about?

My apologies ahead of time if my post here ruffles your feathers.

It's just my opinion. Okay?

[Throckmorton]

wow
I guess I"m not having as much fun at my cowboy matches as I thught I was.

The He** i"m not !

over the years I've read several threads like this one that list all the things 'wrong' with SASS and its' shooters,and as always,the majority of the whners have never played the game,or if they have they tried it once and gave up for one reason or another.

In the last 12 years,i've been to hundreds of mathches and jawboned with hundreds of cas shooters,and never once heard anybody criticize someones' hat,guns,caliber of choice or ANY of the stuff y'all have brought up.
As mandated by SASS leaders,our game is just that..a game,to be enjyed the way YOU want to enjoy it...dress up full tilt or bare minimum,shoot bp or smokeless,build a 500.00 gun cart or use a wheelbarrow.
NOBODY CARES
as to the 'gamers'..
It has been proven that they can shoot fast with 'real' loads or light loads.They were criticized at 1st,but now we have learned to admire their shooting abilities,and we have one here who is just plain CRAZY FAST. And is he ever fun to shoot with !
AS to close up targets,it has been proved zillions of times that no target is so close that it canot be missed.
Heck,I've proven that a whooooooooole bunch of times.:)

>>>>>>>>>>>>rant mode off <<<<

could 65 THOUSAND people have it all wrong? methinks not.

[cajun shooter]

I will be the first to agree about the "GAMERS" in sass. But think about it; these type of people are involved in everything. Don't believe me, just go to any youth sports game and some parents want to come to blows. And yes SASS is a game where you can play out those childhood dreams. As such I now shoot BP loads which are not mouse fart by any means and just smile when I come in last. If we sit back and refuse to play and give it to the gamers then we have lost. To me it's like not voting and then complaining about who's in office. Get involved and have fun. The GAMERS will burn out when they get tired of being covered in smoke and noise! I had a gamer who wins every match tell me that if I would quit shooting them 45's I would do better. I looked him in the eye and said I bet you can't see the forest because of the trees. He turned and walked away scratching his head.

[Old Ironsights]

My 2p...

I would certainly do it if I had the time & $$$ (mostly the $$$).

That said, Here's my take on the Power/Gamer issue:

These are ostensibly "historic recreations" - after a fashion anyway - using Period or Period Design arms.

It matters not to me what caliber/crtridge you are shooting as long as you remember one thing: In that historical period, the powder was BLACK - which ment, regardless of cartridge - a case full.

In my stuffy opinion, the PF for whatever cartridge being used should be the equivelent velocity achieved by whatever bullet on top of a case full of Black... which should be plenty light for the mouse-farters but at least upholds some sense of history.

[StrawHat]

My 2p...

I would certainly do it if I had the time & $$$ (mostly the $$$).

That said, Here's my take on the Power/Gamer issue:

These are ostensibly "historic recreations" - after a fashion anyway - using Period or Period Design arms.

It matters not to me what caliber/crtridge you are shooting as long as you remember one thing: In that historical period, the powder was BLACK - which ment, regardless of cartridge - a case full.

In my stuffy opinion, the PF for whatever cartridge being used should be the equivelent velocity achieved by whatever bullet on top of a case full of Black... which should be plenty light for the mouse-farters but at least upholds some sense of history.

What Old Ironsights says, pretty well sums it up for me.

As a practical matter, I have switched to black powder for 90% of my reloading. Only my 405 WCF and some of my revolver loads use smokeless.

[mooman76]

I can see them wanting you to dress the part. It's part of the fun and if they didn't have it anybody and everybody would be going to shoot and not appreaciate it for what it is and then you would loose the spirit of the event.

[Russel Nash]

Throckmorton wrote:


and jawboned with hundreds of cas

I think for a lot of guys that's the main appeal of CAS.

It's a social event first, a competition second, for them.

Kinda like church is with older people. A place to socialize.

Me? When I go shoot USPSA, IDPA, and steel, I am there to compete.

I'm not there to make friends.


If I just so happen to meet somebody I can jive with, cool!

But chances are, there are too many ego's and Type A personalities around that crowd who aren't into the laughing, cutting up, and grab a$$ing group.

Having somebody try to small talk with me bugs the crap out of me.

Hence, I normally take over the Range Officer or Safety Officer duties.

I run shooters through in a hurry.

They don't get a chance to "jawbone" me.

My communication with them is limited to me saying:

"Are you ready?"

"Standby!"

BEEP!

"If you are finished, unload and show clear."

"Ifclearhammerdownholster!"

"The range is clear."

"NEXT!"

My apologies for coming off like a curmudgeon.

[Russel Nash]

Throckmorton also wrote:


NOBODY CARES
as to the 'gamers'..
It has been proven that they can shoot fast with 'real' loads or light loads.So why shoot the light loads then?They were criticized at 1st,but now we have learned to admire their shooting abilitiesoooohhh..... ahhhh...,and we have one here who is just plain CRAZY FAST. And is he ever fun to shoot with !
AS to close up targets,it has been proved zillions of times that no target is so close that it canot be missed.but having them up close all lined up abreast with each other and CLANGING! fast does look and sound cool though
Heck,I've proven that a whooooooooole bunch of times.with all these games, you can never miss fast enough to win

>>>>>>>>>>>>rant mode off <<<<

could 65 THOUSAND people have it all wrong? methinks not.I am ASSuming you mean the membership of the SASS is around 65 K. The annual membership numbers USPSA HQ is now handing out are in the 62 thousands. That's not including the life memberships. IDPA is probably creeping up on 30 K.

I am trying not to be too cantankerous with this thread and come off sounding like a jerk.

Yeah, maybe one day I will give it a try.

Maybe I could borrow somebody's guns to try it with.:confused:

[Cherokee]

Russel - SASS is not for everyone and it doesn't sound like your game. They majority of us shoot SASS to have fun, competation is secondary.

[Russel Nash]

I have fun too.

I have even more fun when I see my name at the top of the list or if I win a stage or two (versus the open blasters or limited gun shooters).

:wink:

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Russel,

I am sure SASS is not where I want to meet you as a Range Officer. They have to accomadate my limitations just a bit to make it possible for me to participate. I ain't fast, even just walking the stage, and then it is back to my chair. I don't think the other shooting sports would be near as understanding as described by you. I have made some great friends and seen some serious shooters. There is Room for both in the SASS orginazation. If you want to try it, I am sure there are Cowboys in your area that would be glad to lend you guns to shoot. SASS has greatly changed my life and gotten me back out into the world.

Sam :-D

[Springfield]

I shoot full power 44-40 and 45 Schofield's. With Blackpowder. I like to dress up, that's half the fun. If you want to just shoot fast and don't like to socialize, just drive to the range and shoot by yourself. After our match this month we are going to have a potluck dinner. It's nice to actually get to talk to the guys you have been shooting with for years but don't get to talk to 'cause you are busy shooting. It's kinda like this board, being with like minded people knowing you can be yourself and talk about guns and hunting and politics and not have to worry about offending some liberal nutjob. If you aren't social enough to do that then maybe SASS isn't for you.
Here is me shooting a Frontiersman side match. I usually wear my buckskins when I shoot my C&B guns. The next day I switch to my regular cowboy clothes. The NEXT day I wear another set of cowboy clothes. I know it isn't "period correct" but then "real" cowboys only bathed a couple times a year. At what point does realism conflict with our current lives? Do what feels comfortable to you, and I will do the same,and we can all have a good time. http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/mwhyte123/?action=view&current=MVI_1909.flv

[Bret4207]

I heard about a guy near here that liked to dress up like a cowboy. I wish he'd worn pants under his chaps.......:mrgreen:

[Old Ironsights]

I always thought it would be a hoot to participate in SASS in character as an expatriate European... weilding European period/replica guns & gear - like a 16ga BP drilling & a 1872 Webley Bulldog - or Webley RIC

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/images/f312889cf65908647c57d219b7fc956f.jpg

or 11mm M1870 Gasser ....
http://www.dreadgazebo.com/gunporn/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/gunporn-gasser.jpg

Just to be different. ;)

[cajun shooter]

Russell, It sounds as if your people skills were knocked around by someone that made you mad. As a former police range officer and *********T. instructor I would have hurt alot of shooters if not for having "COMPASSION". Maybe you should try shooting SASS or whatever and see what "FUN" is. I hope you have some soon.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I've been shooting International Pistol for ten years, and Cowboy Action for about four. The two styles couldn't be further apart as far as mental attitude goes. International is 80% mental, and shooters can't allow anything to distract them. By comparison, I find Cowboy Action a real stress reliever.
The difference in the sports is: In Int., After trying to put 60 shots in a two inch ten ring at 50yds in a two hr. period, with my TOZ, I'm exhausted from the stress, and in SASS, when I sometimes miss a 2ft.x3ft. "Dump" target at 20ft.(usually my last shot) with my .45 Vaquero's, I find it funny, and laugh about it.

Morgan

[Just Duke]

I really like Cowboy Action Shooting.

Just been surfing the web looking at a lot of Cowboy Action shooting videos and it struck me that lot's of people can shoot those old style guns really fast.......BUT.......there is hardly any noise and next to no recoil.

I understand that the calibres are .32 through to .45's but is there no lower limit to which ammo must be used/reloaded?........seems people are going for scores and forgetting reality.......if you are trying to recreate an era with all the costumes etc why not do it with full bore ammo as well to get real authentity?

It seemed that the only guns that were firing full power ammo were the shotguns!

.....but I have to say that anybody shooting BP seemed to be doing it for real......lotta noise, lotta recoil, lotta smoke and flame!!!!

Safe shooting

Limey

Yes that frustated me to no end. I am going to join SASS just for the social end of things and bring NCOWS to Vegas for the reality end of things. Guys shooting a 25-35 against Joe Blow with a 45 Long Colt and factory ammo is jusy rediculoulsy unfair. I mean I might as well buy a 10-22 and shoot the SASS thing.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

The only thing I don't use a full charge in is my Shotgun. Loaded them down to accomadate Katie's RA affected Hands. Don't want to have to sort the Shells at a shoot and have her get a full charge.

Sam :-D

[cajun shooter]

Yes you can shoot 22 in SASS if you can meet the Buckaroo requirements. But until you have shot a match I don't know where all this negative feed back is coming from on this thread. It seems as if someone heard something bad about SASS and said I agree. I think it would do good to read Teddy Roosevelt's Man in the Pit before being negative without ever having fired a single round.

[Typecaster]

"I heard about a guy near here that liked to dress up like a cowboy. I wish he'd worn pants under his chaps......."
__________________
Bret—
That's why they're called "chaps," innit?

Richard

[Just Duke]

WARNING: this is my 2 cents coming from an IDPA, USPSA, and Steel Challenge competitor

If CAS shooters actually followed a minimum power factor, in my opinion (eyes) it would give CAS more legitimacy.

I have to roll my eyese :rolleyes: every time I see video of a CAS'er standing at the line banging and clanging rather quickly at some steel targets.

Upon closer inspection, he is shooting powder puff loads and the steel is within bayoneting range.

That and they can't shoot on the move.... yawn....
Western 3 gun looks like it would be more fun.








My apologies ahead of time if my post here ruffles your feathers.

It's just my opinion. Okay?


No shooting and moving. Uhhhh........Cali base corp hailing from a sue happy state (CA) i.e. that wants "all guns banned" on one hand and derives their GNP from "movie shoot em ups" and "Defense contracts" on the other.

Shoot and move is more real life and is what I would want to do. But their concerned with lawsuits under the guise of safety.
Lifes not safe and lifes not fair.

[Bent Ramrod]

The minimum power level in Cowboy Action Shooting is enough to knock the gun out of the bad guy's hand, or, alternately, to make the good guy grimace, grip his shoulder, and wear a bandage for the next scene or two.

The fact that the scope of the association has gone from B-western chic to historic rigor on the one hand and gamesmanship in blue jeans on the other is the great strength of SASS. Everybody's always squabbling over their positions along this line, but they get along well, few people ever quit, and more join all the time. Their Wire Forum is one of the most active in the shooting sports and has been for the last 10 years at least. Keeping their tent that big and that inclusive is a real achievement.

[Just Duke]

I am throughly convinced that SASS has embedded itself with those that do not find the rules fair and just.
They will never leave just for the fact they have friends and social events they can attend.

Myself I have offered at great expense and time another venue that would fit within the parameters of those disgruntled with the rules of their game. To my disappointment a couple of handfuls of interested parties and most were only vaguely interested in leaving SASS.
I had also offered an entire forum dedicated to those interested parties with venues not offered elsewhere. i.e. Unlimited bandwidth for pictures, low level moderation, girlie section, high dollar prizes offer by my vendors which pretty much gave me cartblache, pallets of full size silhouette targets, and free ammo for competitors, I could go on but I would was looking at getting a warehouse to store it all.
Still to this day........ 1 to 2 post per day..... :(
I did however meets some awesome people in the process i.e. Kid Sopris which told me I was trying to re-invent the wheel and a group that goes by the acronym NCOWS fits perfectly within the parameters of the said rules we would like to run. And he was right but I was not aware of the group at the time.
Per Kid Sopris I contacted NCOWS and they offered a handsome package including attorneys for $700.00 with a refundable amount as others join. Well in these times $700.00 will buy a lot of reloading components if you know what I mean.
So I opted out....for now....

Those that want to shoot squib loads and think they are re-enacting the great and rugged men and women of the past that forged this fine country with blood, steel and lead, please ask yourself, If for some reason we could resurrect these great people and bring them to our time period what would the say to a Cowboy match with squib load shooters? I mean really! Lets not rationalize the squib load, and no shooting while moving clause. :roll:

As for the "don't knock it until you tried it posters", my opinions on the squib load will not change just by me down loading an already moderate load (compared to present day self defense/combat or tactical munitions) and and clinging a Cartoonish looking Yosemite Sam looking steel target.

Also addressing the squib load group, most men shooting these events are enormous in stature compared to the average man of the 1880 to 1900 5'4 to 5'6 and 130 to 140 pounds.. Heck Kit Carson was 5'1" tall and had some big cojones as far as his ventures go..... So why the squib loads?
Here's one for you...When I ordered my holsters from Mernickle Holsters they called me up to double check the waist measurements and said they could not make my belt with speed loaders and cartridge loops for they had never made one that tiny before and could not accomodate both. lol
Here I'm thinking I'm a fat a-s for having a 36 inch waist at 6'2".
So again these shooter are big men. Big men can shoot big guns with period loads..

SASS and their rules and regs. are here to stay and most will not budge as far as leaving. I will join SASS for the comradery only. NCOWS will be my primary venue and I will be happy to be there per relocation to an applicable state.
<stepping off soap box>

[Just Duke]

http://www.ncows.org/

NCOWS is from what I see is a historical re-enactment group that pretty much if you went to their events you could film a historically correct documentary.
Those of us including myself that have been born 125 years off our desired targeted date will find comfort with other like minded peoples of this time period genera.

[Just Duke]

I'm just really surprized the whole CA. based CAS Corp. thing has not suggested going Airsoft. Or is that the next phase?

[cowboy]

Howdy-
Clubs I've shot with have relaxed the dress code in the very hottest times of summer ( shot in FLA, will resume here in AZ after the 1st of the year) but find that the costuming is part of what makes it what is is!
As for soft loads- shoot what you want within the rules. If you have a need for stuff that bucks and snorts, by all means, as long as it's under 1000fps ( out of handguns) go ahead.
No one says you need to play anywhere, afterall.

[Heavy lead]

How bout interactive paintball. What a way to reinact the ok corral.:mrgreen:

[Just Duke]

Howdy-
Clubs I've shot with have relaxed the dress code in the very hottest times of summer ( shot in FLA, will resume here in AZ after the 1st of the year) but find that the costuming is part of what makes it what is is!

Yes I have discussed this with others including Kid Sopris who brought up a good point. The OLD WEST is just what the name says. The West. Which is hot and dry and folks then wore clothing no matter how hot it was. I agreed with Kid Sopris 100%. very smart man by the way.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

The problem with the dressing up, most do thier research by watching B movies, rather than doing serious research.

Not so! Around here, (Western North Carolina), unless they're shooting in the "B Movie" class(Yes, there is one), you won't find anybody, except new shooters, wearing trousers with belt loops, or zippers(Levi's), or shirts with modern collars. We all mostly wear replica trousers of the era with braces, and shirts with band collars. Authentic holsters, Mexican or slip-on, not the "drop loop" Arvo Ojala holsters made famous in "Gunsmoke".

My persona, is a Robber Baron of the era. My registered SASS "cowboy name", is Morgan Astorbilt, a combination of J.P. Morgan, John Astor, and Cornelius Vanderbilt. I try to dress the part, right down to my solid gold pocket watch, and Christy's English Bowler, which you can see in my avatar.
When I bring my 3/4scale six pounder cannon for special events, I, and several others, wear replicas of Indian Wars artillery uniforms( Don't want to re-start the War of Northern Aggression). Cowboy Action has sprouted a whole new industry devoted to period clothing, leathergoods, and firearms, and probably saved the Stetson Hat Co..
Morgan

[Just Duke]

Just got a call. Well another one..... Seems as though most CA gun ranges will not allow targets that resemble a human being......
Where's my rolling eye's smiley?
Oh there it is!
:roll:

[Just Duke]

Not so! Around here, (Western North Carolina), unless they're shooting in the "B Movie" class(Yes, there is one), you won't find anybody, except new shooters, wearing trousers with belt loops, or zippers(Levi's), or shirts with modern collars. We all mostly wear replica trousers of the era with braces, and shirts with band collars. Authentic holsters, Mexican or slip-on, not the "drop loop" Arvo Ojala holsters made famous in "Gunsmoke".

My persona, is a Robber Baron of the era. My registered SASS "cowboy name", is Morgan Astorbilt, a combination of J.P. Morgan, John Astor, and Cornelius Vanderbilt. I try to dress the part, right down to my solid gold pocket watch, and Christy's English Bowler, which you can see in my avatar.
When I bring my 3/4scale six pounder cannon for special events, I, and several others, wear replicas of Indian Wars artillery uniforms( Don't want to re-start the War of Northern Aggression). Cowboy Action has sprouted a whole new industry devoted to period clothing, leathergoods, and firearms, and probably saved the Stetson Hat Co..
Morgan

I concur.
Very well said and can confirm per attending the said events that most in the SASS scene are very well dressed and take great pride in their thoroughly researched character they enact.
Most do very few don't.
Prior to my period attire aquisition I attended the SASS events in lets call it "Red Neck wear" i.e. Ropers and Wranglers and stood out like a sore thumb.
I will have to hand it to the attendees they do dress the part. Most do.
But not a strict as NCOWS. NCOWS is as period correct as you can get.



I have retracted my quote to wakisupi. Please excuse

[Just Duke]

Throckmorton wrote:



I think for a lot of guys that's the main appeal of CAS.

It's a social event first, a competition second, for them.

Kinda like church is with older people. A place to socialize.

Me? When I go shoot USPSA, IDPA, and steel, I am there to compete.

I'm not there to make friends.


If I just so happen to meet somebody I can jive with, cool!

But chances are, there are too many ego's and Type A personalities around that crowd who aren't into the laughing, cutting up, and grab a$$ing group.

Having somebody try to small talk with me bugs the crap out of me.

Hence, I normally take over the Range Officer or Safety Officer duties.

I run shooters through in a hurry.

They don't get a chance to "jawbone" me.

My communication with them is limited to me saying:

"Are you ready?"

"Standby!"

BEEP!

"If you are finished, unload and show clear."

"Ifclearhammerdownholster!"

"The range is clear."

"NEXT!"

My apologies for coming off like a curmudgeon.

Wow! That sound like the tactical weapons crowd too. Way to much testoserone and ego for me.
Well lets take a look as a good majority of the CAS guys.
They know they are good shots and don't have to go around with their chests puffed out like a turkey fighting for a hen or looking for a fence post to mark their territory as the tactical gamers do.
The only place this much ego/testoserone/Alpha male type belongs in (tactical gamers) is a 30 million dollar aircraft or fit to a plate carrier in which case I would want! this much testosterone and need indeed.
This is what attracted me to the Cowboy Action shoots in what I have seen so far is friendly pleasant men/women that don't have to prove themselves at a rifle range. Very nice people..



Russell, It sounds as if your people skills were knocked around by someone that made you mad. As a former police range officer and *********T. instructor I would have hurt alot of shooters if not for having "COMPASSION". Maybe you should try shooting SASS or whatever and see what "FUN" is. I hope you have some soon.

I will have to agree with Cajun shooter here.

[44man]

I don't believe in powder puff loads that removes all the recoil to make it easier to shoot fast. But then again I have the same problem when some guy buys a .475 or .500 mag and the first thing he wants is the loading info for pip squeek loads. I ask why in the world did the guy buy a cannon? By the time a fella gets the hots for a big gun, he should be well versed with hot .44's or .45's.
But that's only my opinion and it can also extend into the race gun stuff where you need a $5000 gun to compete. Ported, wings, 10# of added metal, the only thing missing is a shoulder stock! Most good sports have different classes so it covers everyone and what they shoot so it evens out EXCEPT for the big prizes at the end.
Then the worst of all, the factory sponsored shooters that get anything they want or need.
I spent years in all kinds of competition from archery to BP and IHMSA. Our little group always went for fun and to have fun. We laughed and joked all the time. Only serious for the trigger break or to release an arrow. We caused a lot of friction with the tight lipped, dead pan shooters that would not even give anyone the time of day. Some where so serious, I seen one guy smash a $300 bow against a tree because he was missing.
I don't like a game that gives an advantage to a few or the rich. At my first archery club, I shot 292 out of 300, Ohio field course, with a little Wing hunting bow. Back at the clubhouse I was soundly beaten out for the trophy by a handicap system where a very poor shooter had so many points, his score was 50 points higher then max. He sandbagged all year. Funny at the next shoot, they dropped the handicap system! :!:
There were a few like us too and they had fun. Bottom line was when we beat the pants off those tight lipped types it caused even more friction. That was what they hated most, a few new comers that outshot them. One thing I noticed was that the friendliest shooters were also the best shooters and they accepted us goof offs, even joining in, helping and giving tips.
I found two sports where there are almost no mean shooters, BP silhouette and BPCR. However behind the scene actions in BP silhouette soured us. Top shooters always got the most groceries. They changed the prize giveouts so even the very worst shooters recieved as many prizes as the best. You could leave the ball out of the gun, make smoke downrange and get as many prizes as the guys that worked to get good.
CAS sounds like a lot of fun and a great bunch to be around. That would be my kind of game, I like friendly shooters, not cut throats. I love to see a guy grin and laugh when he misses, not get mad and throw the gun downrange. I love people that can take a joke and go through some tough shooting with a smile.
The only thing that keeps me away is my fixed, retirement income.

[FN in MT]

Many years ago in the mid 1970's Handgun Metallic Silhouette started and there were some shoots in the NJ/PA area. Initially one could compete pretty well with a Ruger .44 mag or even an 8 3/8" S&W 29. Load up some 250 gr Keith slugs and have at it. I shot an 8 3/8" M27 for Standing Class and won a few fairly large matches with scores in the teens or low 20's. THATS how early in IHMSA this was.

Within two years if You didn't have a BOLT GUN in one of the short .308 cased calibers or bare minimum a TC Contender You were not even remotely competitive. Many of us still shot revolvers but the far more accurate bolt guns were tough to beat.

Used to shoot Police Combat shoots where most shot std K-38's or Colt OMM pistols. Again...within a short time one was shooting against heavy barreled Custom pistols shooting the lightest wadcutter loads they could get away with. Many of us were shootiing the old 158 gr RN duty loads the Dept no longer issued.

Wont even go into the other Pistol Combat sports with their $5K 1911's and OPTICS!!

I'm not a fan of CAS and have only shot it once many years ago. Just not my thing dressing up and playing Cowboy. BUT at least it's still affordable by the common man who has an appropriate Ruger and a holster. IF the Club allows one to shoot in jeans,boots and a cowboy shirt. IF You need to buy all the period clothes then the price does surely go up.

The Gamers and the "win at ALL Cost" types are in EVERY sport going. I see the sandbaggers in trap and skeet as well. Shoot C class scores all year long, then shoot AA class scores in a big shoot to win their class.

Apparently the Gamers and the PC crowd have taken over CAS as well with static shooting positions, mouse fart loads and the short range non human PC targets. Too bad.

FN in MT

[44man]

Yes, they are everywhere and it makes it sad. I am and always will be a sportsman first. I have tied at shoots and gave the win to the other fellow because having a friend is more important. I have given away many, many deer yet there are those that will try and steal them. If they were nice and ask, I would give the deer away, try and steal it and there is big trouble. I will never understand some people! :(
With what I learned about the .44 Ruger's, and how to load for accuracy, I was out shooting everyone. My best was 79 out of 80 in Ohio state but I lost a target because a solid hit did not make it fall. I asked for an alibi and they went and checked the ram. I found the place was all mud and the ram was actually glued to the rail with it. A legal alibi but because I was a new shooter and they hated what I had done, it was not awarded.
I came back and won the .22 state with a Mark II with 57 out of 60 and all the 100 yd shoot off targets and I DID NOT HAVE SIGHT SETTINGS FOR THE NEW GUN! I had a good spotter.
I had done the work but the worst thing was the gritting of teeth and the snubs exhibited by other shooters. I tried to help a few, telling them 4227 was the wrong powder in the .44 but none took the advise and I continued to out shoot them. I got into unlimited with an XP100, Wichita 7R and an MOA. That is when I found the 40 targets were a waste of shots, get them out of the way and win with the chickens at 200 meters.
My eyes are not what they were but what made me quit a lot of the shooting was the atitudes of some shooters. Then the costs kept increasing too. Fun goes away fast.
I run into the same thing on shooting sites. I give an opinion from experience and get hammered forever.
That is why I like it here, guys are more forgiving when I rub them wrong. I don't do it on purpose but some do take it personal. However, those that spend the most money are the first to jump on me. There are a few on other sites I would love come to shoot with me to prove how right they are. Some claim to be robots with Ransom rest arms! [smilie=1:[smilie=1: Let's face it, shooting a handgun off hand is a SOB. If I died and was frozen with a revolver in my hand, it would be the only way I would hold still! :drinks:
Whatever shooting you do, have fun, never get a tight sphinctor over it, meet good people and SMILE! There are many like you and me out there! :Fire:

[EDK]

WARNING: this is my 2 cents coming from an IDPA, USPSA, and Steel Challenge competitor

EDK on the first page wrote:
Okay, I'll bite. What IPSC controversies are you talking about?

My apologies ahead of time if my post here ruffles your feathers.

It's just my opinion. Okay?

Look at what guns are being used in IPSC/USPSA and talk about PRACTICAL. IDPA came about because of IPSC losing track of why it came to be. Jeff Cooper and the other pioneers wanted a testing arena for guns and techniques that worked...that's why there was a power factor.

If a competitor can carry a winning level race gun with compensator and optical sight in a holster for much longer than it takes to shoot his relay, I'd sure like to see it. The guns for IPSC and STEEL CHALLENGE evolved in equipment to win in those specialized disciplines....and they work in that situation. KEY WORD IS SPECIALIZATION.

IDPA started out with similar concepts to IPSC. Where they are now, I don't know or care. (At 60 and with some health issues, I'm not going to go out and run with someone 20..30..40 years younger.) I have read that IDPA will not permit a S&W 625-2, 45 ACP, 5 inch barrel in some classes...and I consider it to be one of the best ..and least know...revolvers available.

Gamers and race guns will kill any sport. If you don't care to socialize at the shoots, fine. Just don't stand around and snarl at the ones who do...go sit in your car... stay away from the crowd any way that pleases you...and when you're done shooting, the exit is over there.

Go have a good time doing whatever. And if you see an old guy with a gray flat brimmed STETSON or a SHILOH RIFLE ball cap, depending on the discipline, at the shoot, "try to be more congenial, it makes for a more harmonious outcome."

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[cajun shooter]

44 man, my wife and I went to 4 or 5 shoots before I decided to join in on the "FUN". We had several shooters come up and say "If you want to shoot, you can use my guns". What other shooting sport has that? As was stated before about IHMSA which my number was 725 went sour fast. The first year in Louisiana was won by my spotter and friend Greg Phares shooting a Ruger 44 with a score of 27. I was shooting a Ruger 41 mag and Smith 57 I'm on a retirment fixed income also and if you ever make it to Louisiana, You can shoot my guns in a match .

[KYCaster]

Look at what guns are being used in IPSC/USPSA and talk about PRACTICAL. IDPA came about because of IPSC losing track of why it came to be. Jeff Cooper and the other pioneers wanted a testing arena for guns and techniques that worked...that's why there was a power factor. And when IPSC Open division outran Coopers pet theories he couldn't cope with it very well. That's exactly what Open division is...a testing arena for guns and techniques that work. Take a look at the red dot sights available now, they're rugged enough that our soldiers are useing them in the desert...you can thank IPSC Open division for that. Several of the guys who were winning national championships in the 80's and 90's are now making a pretty good living training our soldiers and police....they developed their gear and techniques in IPSC competition.

If a competitor can carry a winning level race gun with compensator and optical sight in a holster for much longer than it takes to shoot his relay, I'd sure like to see it. The guns for IPSC and STEEL CHALLENGE evolved in equipment to win in those specialized disciplines....and they work in that situation. KEY WORD IS SPECIALIZATION.That's not what Open division is about....it's a testing arena for guns and techniques. We also have Production division which allows a minimum of modifications(mainly sight and trigger improvement), and guess what...the manufacturers are starting to build guns with the mods that the competitors are asking for. Why?...because it works. And guess what...they're selling like hotcakes, and not just to competitors, but also to the guys who carry every day. Why?...because it works.

IDPA started out with similar concepts to IPSC. Where they are now, I don't know or care. (At 60 and with some health issues, I'm not going to go out and run with someone 20..30..40 years younger.) I have read that IDPA will not permit a S&W 625-2, 45 ACP, 5 inch barrel in some classes...and I consider it to be one of the best ..and least know...revolvers available. I'm probably going to step on some toes here....but, IDPA started out because Bill Wilson couldn't get the rest of the USPSA management to agree with him. Both organizations have their place and both are growing in membership numbers, but IDPA has chosen to limit innovation in equipment and technique and is stuck with twenty-year-old technology. BTW...I'm the one who complained here about my 5" 625 being to long to fit the IDPA box...but that's OK...it's their game(GAME) and they can do whatever they want.

SASS and BPCR are also stuck with century old technology. There's nothing wrong with that. If someone wants to push the envelope with something new then the management has to address the issue. If it falls outside the scope of the game then it should be rejected, after all they're trying to recreate a "period" experience.

But that's entirely different than Cooper's original concept of innovation through competition. That's exactly what IPSC Open division is...and Cooper didn't like the direction his creation took.

Gamers and race guns will kill any sport. If you don't care to socialize at the shoots, fine. Just don't stand around and snarl at the ones who do...go sit in your car... stay away from the crowd any way that pleases you...and when you're done shooting, the exit is over there.Gamers and race guns will kill any sport that can't tolerate innovation...but that has nothing to do with socializing or fun. Don't knock it till you've tried it.

Go have a good time doing whatever. And if you see an old guy with a gray flat brimmed STETSON or a SHILOH RIFLE ball cap, depending on the discipline, at the shoot, "try to be more congenial, it makes for a more harmonious outcome."

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:


Muddy Creek Sam...I don't know if you've ever been to a USPSA match...it sounds like you haven't...but there plenty of "Old Farts" with health issues who enjoy IPSC style competition. The USPSA rules address physical limits and every club that I have been associated with will accept anyone who can safely handle a gun in a dynamic situation...so, try it, you may like it.

Jerry

[Tom Herman]

The West was not an exclusive Colt SAA scene: Lots of European arms like the British Bulldogs were out there as well.
The fun factor would be off the scale using classic Webleys and other revolvers!

+1 for your idea!

Happy Shootin'! -Tom



I always thought it would be a hoot to participate in SASS in character as an expatriate European... weilding European period/replica guns & gear - like a 16ga BP drilling & a 1872 Webley Bulldog - or Webley RIC

Just to be different. ;)

[Russel Nash]

@ KYCaster...

good post! :drinks:

It's not that I am NOT friendly or that I am an a$$ to anyone at matches, it's just that I have my game face on, and I am mentally preparing myself to shoot a stage.

I am rehearsing it in my head.

If someone comes up to chit chat with me, it derails my train of thought.

As far as the guns being super expensive in USPSA/IPSC, that really isn't my thing.

I got into the production division shooting a Beretta 92/96. It's the same gun essentially, that our troops are issued and right across the river it's what the St. Louis Police Department has issued to its officers.

I probably could have bought a used brunitoned Beretta for right around $400. Instead, I always wanted the stainless version and opted to pay around $600 or $700 .

As far as newbies go, I always bend over backwards to help the brand new shooters out.

Somebody shows up just to watch, yeah, I offer to let 'em shoot my other pistola, and I sometimes have an extra holster and mag pouches too.

I'll say something like:


Oh, come on! Shooting it is way more fun than just watching. I have an extra gun with me if you're interested.

And if anyone is handicapped, I do or we do make accomodations for them. We have one old timer who can't hear. I tap him on the shoulder when the buzzer goes off.

Granted the gravel on the range floors probably isn't wheelchair friendly, but I have never seen anyone in a wheelchair attempt to come on out either.

[Russel Nash]

EDK wrote:


Look at what guns are being used in IPSC/USPSA and talk about PRACTICAL. IDPA came about because of IPSC losing track of why it came to be. Jeff Cooper and the other pioneers wanted a testing arena for guns and techniques that worked...that's why there was a power factor.


From what I have had a good source relay to me, that's not entirely true.

What was told to me was that Bill Wilson approached USPSA HQ and said something like this:


How about a division for just the single stack 1911 guns?

They supposedly snubbed his idea.

He then decided to start his own action pistol sport and called it IDPA.

And then somewhere in there, the full effects of the '94 AWB were hitting home and there were probably not too many newbies to USPSA who were able to get their hands on the 20 + round magazines or the 30 + round "big stick
mags.

So IDPA probably became more attractive to them, since 10 round mags are the norm there.

IDPA has steadily grown.

I don't know for sure when the Production division was created in USPSA, but just recently USPSA (this year 2008) recognized the Single Stack division as a for real official division.

So methinks that some marketing people at USPSA saw the Production division and the new Single Stack division as a way to get cross over shooters from IDPA.

[Limey]

...Wow!....seems my question and observations about CAS has stirred up a hornets nest!

I have shot the inaugral CAS event at my local club here in France.......I loved it 'cus everybody used full power loads and we did include movement from stage to stage all against the clock.....cowboy style dress was encouraged but not obligatory....by the way, the French are well into all forms of Americana and in particular anything to do with the Old West.

This brought back fond memories of many years of shooting Practical Pistol back in the UK when responsible grown up Englishmen were allowed to own handguns and shoot them.

Anyway, here's a thought to consider. Why not have a falling target that must be knocked down in each shooting stage.....on each stage the sequence of hitting this target will vary from shooter to shooter so tactical loading of a ''hot'' round amongst the soft rounds would not be a possibility.

The weight or style of the target would need a full power load to knock it over.

Any failure to knock over this target would halve your score AND double your stage time.

This way there is two competitions within one with same amount of admin and set up.

One competition for the low load shooters, their scores will group them together while the full load shooters likewise will be grouped together giving everybody in each camp a chance to compete on a level playing field within the same event?

How about calling it CAS......for the low load shooters and ACS (Authentic Cowboy Shooting) for the full load shooters?

Safe shooting

Limey

[crabo]

[QUOTE=Limey;432357]...Wow!....seems my question and observations about CAS has stirred up a hornets nest!

Only thing people seem to be more passionate about is RPMs.

Duke had a good idea about having a match with full power loads. I liked the idea, but I wanted to see some "precision" targets and suggested having a stage with 2 each of chickens, pigs, turkeys and rams at the lever action pistol cartridge distances.

Of course you would have to have a time limit, or some people would never finish.

[Just Duke]

[QUOTE=Limey;432357]...Wow!....seems my question and observations about CAS has stirred up a hornets nest!

Only thing people seem to be more passionate about is RPMs.


Of course you would have to have a time limit, or some people would never finish.

This is true.

[Thumbcocker]

Not my cup of tea but it burns powder, keeps thumbcocking pistols in production, and a lot of people seem to be having a whale of a good time playing dress up. To each his own