Mountain Molds Heavy 30 cal

[The Nyack Kid]

Ok guys im going to up load a image from off of the old dinasour Gateway , I will then be back shortly to ask questions about it .

[drinks]

A super soup can?

[StarMetal]

To me that shares alot of similarities with the Lyman 311284

Joe

[The Nyack Kid]

here is what it is :
225 gr 311 alloy WW
nose is .600 in
front band is .100 long
overall lenth is 1.2 in
58% meplat
boreride is .300 at bottom .298 at the top and .200 in long
grove to band ratio is .7 to 1 grove angle is 55*

so will this boolit fly ?
is it to long for a 1:10 inch twist ?
if cast of ACWW how fast could it go befor the accuratcy goes sour ?
if Heat Treated how fast would it go ?
is the nose to long ?
how do i deal with the boolits getting crushed in my saeco sizer if i try to size done to much ?( i have not been sucsessful sizing a 311041 down from .312 to .309 to date) ive got a .311 die back ordered from midway.

the biggest question i have though is " is it just too long to work" ???

ive got 1 300H&H and a few 30-06s that are starving for real boolits .
i haven done any work with 30 cal cast yet and im "sailing in uncharted waters " so to speak

[Bass Ackward]

so will this boolit fly ?
is it to long for a 1:10 inch twist ?
if cast of ACWW how fast could it go befor the accuratcy goes sour ?
if Heat Treated how fast would it go ?
is the nose to long ?
how do i deal with the boolits getting crushed in my saeco sizer if i try to size done to much ?( i have not been sucsessful sizing a 311041 down from .312 to .309 to date) ive got a .311 die back ordered from midway.
will the boolit carry enough lube for 2000fps (FWFL , hardened with with 75% more parifin) ?

the biggest question i have though is " is it just too long to work" ???

ive got 1 300H&H and a few 30-06s that are starving for real boolits .
i haven done any work with 30 cal cast yet and im "sailing in uncharted waters " so to speak.

Kid,

Boy you gotta cut back on the coffee when you start asking questions. :grin:

Is it too long to work? No.
Is it to long for 10 twist? No.
Top speed should be about 2000 fps with a full case of H-870 and hardned. Faster if you shorten the nose. Top speed for ACWW is more like 1800 fps. Variables are your gun and lube choice.
Is the nose too long? Yes and no. It's too long adding too much weight if you want to go faster that's for sure.
Why in gosh sakes would you want more parafin? Parafin contributes nothing to the lube. All it does is hide mistakes in manufacturing lube. If your lube grooves are smaller any hardness of lube will stay in place. If you want to add something that hardens and adds to it, try Carnuba.

I would change my bore ride measurements to go from 298 up to 302 if it were me so you can ensure that it hits somewhere up the pipe when chambered.

Hey kid, did I ever tell you I don't like bore riders?

[45 2.1]

My only question is will it chamber at the depth you want to seat it. My guess is it won't. You need to take an impact slug of your throat and design the bullet from that.

[The Nyack Kid]

what i had in mind was a heavy wheight 311041 .
the bore-ride dementions arn't set in stone . my first-time thoat slug is curranty stuck in the gun ,which is down at the gunsmiths , (i forgot to oil the dang thing ) once the thoat messurements are in my hot little hands im going to send away for the mold . im going to go with an iron block cause this boolit is first a hunting boolit and i want to use soft-nosed boolits .
i may have to do two differant molds . the 300 H&H has a short throat compared to the remington M-30

[waksupi]

I would like to suggest, those who have designed successful molds from Mountain Molds, to start a thread, and post particulars of the bullet. This may help make a standardized design that is a "go to" thing, that hopefully will shoot in any relative bore size. A cut and paste of the design would be ideal, rather than just a description.

[The Nyack Kid]

waksupi that is a very good idea .

what would be considered a good design ? or what would be a turkey?
we would need to lay down some basic requierments . we could also do "what dosn't work ,dont try it " tips to go along with the good designs .

gee i have to dig the old dinasour out every time i post an image ohh well for the greater good ....that or up grade software

[Bass Ackward]

what i had in mind was a heavy wheight 311041 .
the bore-ride dementions arn't set in stone . my first-time thoat slug is curranty stuck in the gun ,which is down at the gunsmiths , (i forgot to oil the dang thing ) once the thoat messurements are in my hot little hands im going to send away for the mold . im going to go with an iron block cause this boolit is first a hunting boolit and i want to use soft-nosed boolits .
i may have to do two differant molds . the 300 H&H has a short throat compared to the remington M-30


Kid,

I would then like to give you something else to think about.

You can buy a 3 cavity aluminum mold for $5 or $10 more. You could ask Dan to cut the back two cavities for bullets and then the farthest one out be for the softnose. This way, it's there when you need it and you still have a two cavity mold.

If this is for hunting and you are going to go with a softnose anyway, then realize that you can shoot through anything on this continent with 200 grains with the right shank hardness or bullet diameter. Then if you shoot light game, you can "accurately" increase your velocity to get better expansion from that softer nose should you need it.

If you feel you need more weight than that in 30 caliber, then you probably need more caliber than 30 caliber.

[Buckshot]

..................In designing a boolit you have certain limitations you cannot get around. The main one is literally "In Steel", and is the barrel. Along with that are features in that area which is the throat and lead. The throat will effectively limit the diameter of your design. If you don't want the GC below the neck/shoulder, then that is your limit at that end. Another limitation is an OAL in conjunction with a nose that will feed.

As 45 2.1 said, you need a good picture of what you have to work with before you can set out to design a slug. You need a cast which includes the neck, throat, and leade.

http://www.fototime.com/21520B8D0EFD93C/standard.jpg
This is the Lyman 311284 loaded in the 7.62x39 case. Intended for use in a bolt action. You can see the land engraving on the nose of both loaded slugs.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, the heaviest slug you can get would be a full groove diameter body flat on both ends just like a cylinder. Everything you take away from that lightens it. Naturally you'd probably have to drive the bolt closed with a hammer on such a thing. So from your casting of the interior surface you reduce a certain length of the simple slug to fit into the lands. This lightened the slug.

In order to be practical you have to provide some amount of lubrication so these come in the form of lube grooves. Everyone you add subtracts mass from the boolit. You may mitigate this to an extent by making the LG's shallower, to a degree. I wouldn't make them any shallower then .004" or .296" for a 30 cal.

http://www.fototime.com/89BFEB0DE221340/standard.jpg
The 2 boolits in the center are the Wally Bator designed Lee custom's from several years ago. There were 2 slugs in this series. The ones shown here were the lighter of the 2. These are C311-200R-RF's and were intended to pack maximum weight into as compact a design as possible, hence the blunt nose. The lube grooves on these mike right at .299". In a perfect .300" bore you have a .0005" film of lube between the bottom of the lube grooves and the land tops.

They were designed to be about .301" on the nose and first band. The sized and lubed one is sized to .310" and is shown loaded in a 30-40 Krag to an OAL to have the nose 'just' touch. It still allows feeding through the magazine. To the left of this boolit is the Lyman 314299. It will NOT engrave in my Krag and still feed from the magazine.

The other Bator was the C316-220 RF. Basicly the same slug, just fatter and with the same design features. The ones I have on hand in 17 BHN alloy weight 222 grs and are 1.2" long.

These 2 designs fail at 2000 fps due to lube failure. Actually the lube grooves don't supply sufficient effect. That's why I suggest LG's no shallower then .004".

http://www.fototime.com/ADF9F422ACC2AA7/standard.jpg
I used the same basic design for the heavy 8mm I had Lee do. It's the C326-240 RF. One change was to have the LG's cut a bit deeper. The one on the left is sized .323" and the one on the right is sized .314".

The commonality for both designs was maximum weight in the least volumn possible.

...............Buckshot

[45 2.1]

what i had in mind was a heavy wheight 311041 .
the bore-ride dementions arn't set in stone . my first-time thoat slug is curranty stuck in the gun ,which is down at the gunsmiths , (i forgot to oil the dang thing ) once the thoat messurements are in my hot little hands im going to send away for the mold . im going to go with an iron block cause this boolit is first a hunting boolit and i want to use soft-nosed boolits .
i may have to do two differant molds . the 300 H&H has a short throat compared to the remington M-30

Kid-
Send me a throat slug (the whole thing: cartridge and engrave expanded throat slug) and I will show you on a drawing what and where the dimensions are you need to hit. I am working (very, very slowly) on the 31125 240 gr. slug myself.

[The Nyack Kid]

45 2.1
PM sent

thanks for the imput guys
my greatest consern was that the boolit was to long for practical use , but it seems that if i get a good thoat meserment and design the boolit acordingly i should not have problems

correct me if im wrong but it is my thinking that for hunting : it is better to have a 220+gr 30 cal @ 2000fps than a 170 gr 30 cal @ 2100 fps IF the accuressy and meplat are the same .

[Bass Ackward]

45 2.1
PM sent

correct me if im wrong but it is my thinking that for hunting : it is better to have a 220+gr 30 cal @ 2000fps than a 170 gr 30 cal @ 2100 fps IF the accuressy and meplat are the same .


Nyack,

Better? In what way? And how would I answer it if it were true? Don't let me talk you out of anything. If you want it, go for it.

When I can't make a logical argument from a point of fact, I go to experience. If that is lacking (and it is), I go to history. Same as I pointed Blackwater to history.

Look at the time tested 30 caliber lines of all the manufacturers. Look at the flat nose designs that were made especially for hunting. Look at what weight they stop. Then ask yourself, with the popularity of the 30 caliber in American history, .... why?

[StarMetal]

Then look at Iraqi's Freedoms Oldfeller's 6.5 Tomahawk Cruise Missile.


Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Then look at Iraqi's Freedoms Oldfeller's 6.5 Tomahawk Cruise Missile.


Joe


Joe,

OK. So what's your point?

[StarMetal]

They can work

[The Nyack Kid]

Ol' Elmer Keith talked me into it :bigsmyl2:

[Doughty]

Nyack,

Sorry I missed you at Kalispell. I was there Friday, however I went to the show for the purpose of selling off the guns etc. of my old friend and hunting partner who died last spring. When I got table space Saturday morning sometime, I put out some of my things to fill in the table top.

As regards your heavy .30, let me throw out some things to also consider.

1. The 180s to 220s at 2000 are good .30-30 or .30-40 Krag-Jorgensen ballistics. If you oven tempered your alloy you could go up to 2400 pretty easy and be in the upper end of .30-40 modern rifle or mid .30-06 ballistics. In the cases you're talking about you might find balance easier.

2. In my experience, bore ride bullets and cold weather hunting do not go well together. This has more to do with extracting unfired ammo than anything else, but could affect pressure too. If any mosture from where ever gets on the nose of the boolit and the temperature is low enough it can freeze together. Sometimes it can stick enough to pull the bullet from the case causing problems. I've found that if you have case neck/bullet tension or heavy crimp to overcome this, that accurracy suffers badly. The case can also freeze to the chamber, but here you are pulling on the rim of the case which takes alot more pressure without problems. If you have the throat area fit too closely to the bullet this can also create the same problem. I believe the best cold weather hunting accuracy can be obtained by having the base of the bullet as large as will easily chamber in the neck and the throat and bore, close but not touching. I believe that a easy way to find the best sizing diameter for the base of the bullet, is to fire a round at near maximum pressure, then measure the inside diameter of the case neck, then size bullet to .001 to .002 over. I know that this is contra to current thoughts on obtaining maximum accuracy. Again, this is not for warm weather hunting or brenchrest target shooting.

3. I 'd also suggest getting your meplat up to .200 or about 64% in this caliber. Then I wouldn't worry about soft points.

4. Regarding fine trimming for weight, after you have played with varying groove depth and width, and increasing diameter to maximum, then consider length in case neck. Consider the difference in length between .30-06 at .383 to .300 H&H at .276 about a tenth of an inch and how this affects weight. Then consider two of the classic lead bullet cartridges, the .30-30 at .427 and the .30-40 at .484.

As already mentioned, a good swaged impression of your neck, throat, leade, groove and bore will tell you most of what you need to know in the easiest and quickest way.

I really liked what Buckshot said about much of this being written in Steel. After the Steel is translated, if you don't like what is said, then maybe you should consider re-writing the steel.

Just think of all the fun you're going to have trying everything.

[StarMetal]

Nyack,

Sorry I missed you at Kalispell. I was there Friday, however I went to the show for the purpose of selling off the guns etc. of my old friend and hunting partner who died last spring. When I got table space Saturday morning sometime, I put out some of my things to fill in the table top.

As regards your heavy .30, let me throw out some things to also consider.

1. The 180s to 220s at 2000 are good .30-30 or .30-40 Krag-Jorgensen ballistics. If you oven tempered your alloy you could go up to 2400 pretty easy and be in the upper end of .30-40 modern rifle or mid .30-06 ballistics. In the cases you're talking about you might find balance easier.

2. In my experience, bore ride bullets and cold weather hunting do not go well together. This has more to do with extracting unfired ammo than anything else, but could affect pressure too. If any mosture from where ever gets on the nose of the boolit and the temperature is low enough it can freeze together. Sometimes it can stick enough to pull the bullet from the case causing problems. I've found that if you have case neck/bullet tension or heavy crimp to overcome this, that accurracy suffers badly. The case can also freeze to the chamber, but here you are pulling on the rim of the case which takes alot more pressure without problems. If you have the throat area fit too closely to the bullet this can also create the same problem. I believe the best cold weather hunting accuracy can be obtained by having the base of the bullet as large as will easily chamber in the neck and the throat and bore, close but not touching. I believe that a easy way to find the best sizing diameter for the base of the bullet, is to fire a round at near maximum pressure, then measure the inside diameter of the case neck, then size bullet to .001 to .002 over. I know that this is contra to current thoughts on obtaining maximum accuracy. Again, this is not for warm weather hunting or brenchrest target shooting.

3. I 'd also suggest getting your meplat up to .200 or about 64% in this caliber. Then I wouldn't worry about soft points.

4. Regarding fine trimming for weight, after you have played with varying groove depth and width, and increasing diameter to maximum, then consider length in case neck. Consider the difference in length between .30-06 at .383 to .300 H&H at .276 about a tenth of an inch and how this affects weight. Then consider two of the classic lead bullet cartridges, the .30-30 at .427 and the .30-40 at .484.

As already mentioned, a good swaged impression of your neck, throat, leade, groove and bore will tell you most of what you need to know in the easiest and quickest way.

I really liked what Buckshot said about much of this being written in Steel. After the Steel is translated, if you don't like what is said, then maybe you should consider re-writing the steel.

Just think of all the fun you're going to have trying everything.

For that matter water can even freez a jacketed bullet to the chamber wall and in small calibers like say 243 you can pull the case off the bullet and leave the bullet lodged there.

What wrong with some LEE Liquid Alox on the outside of the bullet...on that bore riding nose? Wouldn't stick then.

Joe

[The Nyack Kid]

thanks for the thoughts guys
IMO there is nothing wrong with duplcating 30-40 balistics for hunting perpases .i will have to see how hard things would be to get 2400 fps and good accurecy , shouldn't be to hard should it ? if i can that would be nice , but i want to stay with ACWWs or with soft noses .
having the base of the boolit hang down into the powder space doesn't bother me , as long as the gascheck stay on im happy .im going with the step shank to give the check something to help it stay put. also with the two small groves that im going with on the design , the lube groves should be all the way in the cartridge neck. the reseson for the tapered boreride section ,is i dont want a boolit geting stuck in the rifling . the taper reduces the contact to the rifling.my FWFL batch that i have right now doesn't stick too bad to powder.

for my next batch of FWFL im going to use the carnuba wax that ive been saving .
what will happen to the lube if i add twice the amount of carnuba wax as i do bee's wax , besides change the color to red?
what will boolit preformance do ?
will i see more or less leading?
ive got lots of wax ,ive eaten anough cheese to ...ahh... give me problems

so many ideas so little money.

[The Nyack Kid]

I may not need to change anything from the posted design , in regards to the boreride section . At least for the model 30 remington . it has a long thoat that Imay just fill with the front driving band. the H&H is a differant story on the other hand.

[felix]

More carnauba, more lube hardness. Might help if you are getting lube buildup because of the cold weather and the barrel staying cool. If you now begin to get leading, then you want the lube to be softer, and then you will need to add some oil to compensate for the carnauba overkill. This is per application, remember. ... felix