shooting at a canted angle

[fcvan]

I grow weary of those who see a weapon pointed at a canted angle as ignorant. Those who see a weapon not presented at a 90 degree angle see this as an ignorant thug level of weapon presentation. So far from the truth is such ideology.

When shooting from a weapon-side unsupported presentation, most folks are at a disadvantage. Human physiology dictates proper stances and holds. Stand easy. make a fist, and bring your hand, strong or support side, and bring your fist to your eye level, Your hand will naturally come up at a 45 degree angle. Using both hands will present your sights at a 90 degree angle. Using your weapon hand unsupported will bring your sights to a natural hold of 45 degrees. If not, the military training of a 45 degree stance would be un natural.

Using both hands brings the sights to a 90 degree angle. most times, the weapon hand is at a natural 45 degree angle relating to the sights. THis works well when utilizing a ballistic shield, or available effective cover.

Most importantly, most semi-automatic weapons present a very effective sight pattern. Take the Glock, or 1911, or most semi-automatic weapons and you see the same sight picture, equal distance of bad guy on either side of the slab sided weapon and press, press, press. The trigger is never pulled, it is pressed. Too far on the pad of the trigger results in a pulled shot, to little results in a pushed shot.

Sights are not as significant at ranges less than 25 yards if the weapon becomes 'one with your hand.' Make your adjustments according to the situation at hand, and there will be success. AS has been said here, you can shoot often, and shoot rapidly, but only hits count.

[charlie b]

Nothing wrong with it as long as you know how it affects bullet path. At close ranges not much at all. Longer ranges may cause a target miss depending on size of target. You could adjust the sights to compensate with some pistols, but, the tilt barrel semi autos would be a bit more challenging.

Miculek did a video on 'gangbang' shooting, ie, holding the pistol at 90deg. He could easily hit targets at closer ranges. FWIW, he can also accurately shoot a pistol gripped upside down.

A while ago (decades?) olympic shooters experimented with grip angles to find the most efficient. Several tried grips at 45 up to 90 deg. Then they disappeared. I don't know if it was because of a rule change or because they found them not as efficient.

[DanishM1Garand]

I’ve seen High Power Service Rifle shooters that shoot canted. They of course have the dope for the sights written down in the log book. The shooters simply were comfortable canted in the prone and just worked around it.

Obviously though holding your Glock Fortay sideways is dumb.

[Texas by God]

I've been shooting my scoped rifles canted for all my life. (According to my friends when they shoulder one of my rifles and look through the scope!)[emoji16]

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[lightman]

I guess there a difference between how canted. I shoot various varmints from my truck and sometimes I can't get set up where the rifle is perfectly straight. I usually score hits but it does affect your trajectory. Distance matters. This is probably a little different from the gangbanger stance that you see on TV.

[popper]

Gangbangers hold @90deg. as they police their brass! Shot right handed and catch with the left. [smilie=f:
Only tough guys can catch the hot brass. Especially when letting go of the pants, catch and get back to the pants before they fall off.
Actually recoil effects are quite different and second shot is faster.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Only tough guys can catch the hot brass. Especially when letting go of the pants, catch and get back to the pants before they fall off.


Now that is funny! The mental image this created made me almost spill my coffee! [smilie=l:

[mdi]

There's a big difference between canted and "gang banger stance" (one arm extended, gun at head height or above, gun horizontal to ground). Many favor a CAR stance where the gun is canted (Center Axis Lock, ala John Wick taught/used by Paul Castle).

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

There's Gangsta ...then there's Hollywood Gangsta
:holysheep


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJTXpItCqFU

[txbirdman]

Canting a rifle at long distances is a bad thing that’s why long range shooters use bubble levels on their scopes. At shorter distances it’s not so critical. Now it pistol shooting I find canting the pistol very helpful when shooting weak hand. I’m better weak handed when I lock my elbow and cant the pistol so that I can align the sights using my dominate eye. YMMV.

[BrutalAB]

I dunno if i agree with the naturalness of a 45 degree grip. I did the test and my grip was dang near vertical, off by just a bit, reminded me of the grip i use on my steering wheel.

Other than that, my personal opinion is that as long as one can hit what they are trying to, who really cares how they do it?
This applys to most things, not just shooting stance/grip.

[dverna]

I shoot pistols canted if firing one handed. It is not a lot but it is the natural way my hand grips the gun. Shooting two handed there is no cant.

Sight in using a rest or two handed as most of time, at least for me, we shoot two handed. If you have to shoot one handed with a cant, it will not matter much as pistol ranges and even less at 3-4 yards when sights are not employed anyway.

[Texas by God]

REAL MEN cant the pistol with the ejection port facing up- so they can catch the hot brass in their mouth like popcorn!

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[fredj338]

Having shot for a few years at a reasonably high level of competition I can tell you your assumption of holding & sighting a pistol isn't exactly correct. Canting does affect bullet impact, even at 10y. While some canting may be desirable, it isn't 45deg, more like 20deg. Plenty of instructors teach both vertical & canted one hand shooting, it just depends on the shooter & what they are intending to do as in shoot static or shoot while moving.
Also sights not important until you get to 25y, again try shooting speed drills & not finding the front sight at even 10y. You will miss more than you hit.

[country gent]

Shooting canted can be done and while it doesn't affect accuracy it does affect Point Of Impact. A friend on the ORPA state team shot 200yd sitting with a heavy cant. If he needed a wind correction it also took a elevation correction. If you cant and are consistent the only problem is learning the ratio of elevation and windage

[Larry Gibson]

Having shot for a few years at a reasonably high level of competition I can tell you your assumption of holding & sighting a pistol isn't exactly correct. Canting does affect bullet impact, even at 10y. While some canting may be desirable, it isn't 45deg, more like 20deg. Plenty of instructors teach both vertical & canted one hand shooting, it just depends on the shooter & what they are intending to do as in shoot static or shoot while moving.
Also sights not important until you get to 25y, again try shooting speed drills & not finding the front sight at even 10y. You will miss more than you hit.

With regards handgun shooting I agree 100%...…….especially the last 2 sentences. I spent the better part of my life teaching marksmanship to LEOs, civilians and military (both our and others around the world) and have been through the trick shooting phases several times. Truth is the basics always prove better. I also competed in competition; rifle (military and civilian), and handgun (PPC, IPSC, IDPA and bullseye) Canting the weapon, rifle or pistol can be effective if used with the sights but only if the range is known and you can adjust the sights or know the correct hold off. As to canting a rifle.....well I watch Jerry Miklik (?) go prone in a shoot off match with his AR and miss a dinger at 175 yards about 12 times (he had the mag resting on the ground and had a slight cant) until he picked it up off the ground, held it correctly by the grip and the forend and execute the proper fundamentals of marksmanship.....he then hit the dinger.....go figure...….

Not sure where the current fad of holding an AR straight out in front of you comes from but I've yet to see any decent accuracy from it...…. The zombie shooters sure like it though......

[megasupermagnum]

I just tried your test. Whether straight out in front, straight at my side, somewhere in between, strong or weak hand. My fist comes up pretty much level without me even thinking. If anything 45 degrees is the unnatural feeling. The only time I've seen someone use a rifle canted intentionally was to use sights or something else that was canted. Many people shoot slightly canted, but not anywhere close to 45 degrees. Other than coming around corners, which may make sense.

[M-Tecs]

Canting a firearm has more disadvantages than advantages.

On the advantage side firearms like the Tubb 2000 have a round receiver with the scope rail holes at 0, 5, 10 and 15 degrees to allow for a cant of the firearm while maintaining the sights at top dead center over the bore. This allows the shooter to confirm the rifle to their personal physique. This type of cant has no disadvantages. With the Tubb 2000 5 degrees is best for me in stand. In prone 10 degrees works best for me.

The three gun speed shooters have secondary sights for the close fast targets. Normally when using the secondary sights the firearm is canted to the point that these sights are top dead center of the bore. In this case the canting is solely based on speed advantages for the low power or iron secondary sights.

Whether rifle or a handgun when the sights are not top dead center to the bore you are creating additional challenges most of which have been pointed out in various posts above.

In the case of handguns using a 45 degree cant the advantage of canting begins and ends with shooting when holding a ballistic shield.

Canting handguns has numerous disadvantages including POI shift, sight not tracking for vertical or horizontal adjustment, slower recovery time due to recoil moving the firearm off both the vertical and horizonal planes and most importantly two hundred years of handgun competition has conclusively proved what works best and it isn't canted 45 degrees. Canted free pistols have be tried many times and each time they have been found to have more disadvantages than advantages. Some have had great success with them but they are the minority.

I grow weary of folks pushing this bologna without the required pedigree such as National or World titles or records. Heard these claims many time yet when I shoot handguns against the one that are "one with their hand" their 21 foot targets look like my 50 yard targets. Same for rifle 50 yard rifle targets look like my 300 yard targets.

In reading 50 years of police and military shooting accounts seeing the front sight is the deference between hitting and missing. Same for my first hand general shooting and competition shooting experience.

[beagle]

Canting by bullseye shooters has always been around. It works as they're able to zero in the canted position and can record and go back to the sight setting that works for that specific distance. Many shooters use it successfully.
I once worked with a guy in the Army that shot constantly on the pistol team for the MTU. He took time to explain it to me and demonstrate his thoughts. I'd hold out my .45 and he'd look at it. In a few minutes, he'd ask me where my arm was getting tired. I'd show him. He'd cant my pistol until the stress went away. Wasn't much. Once he got that settled, I adjusted my sights to compensate for the cant and my scores went up drastically.
Another trick he had was to sit around with a brick suspended from his arm at work and at night watching TV. This strengthened his muscles. He also squeezed a rubber handball ball constantly. Best .45 shooter I ever saw.
The cant works..... at known distances with a "cant" zero. Try it with a straight zero and you're in for some surprises and misses./beagle

[M-Tecs]

Reverse cant (palm up) free pistol shooter http://toz35.blogspot.com/2009/10/melentiev-and-minder.html

and yes bullseye shooters have using a slight cant for a very long time. The operative word is slight. A 5 or even a 10 degree cant is far cry from 45 degrees the OP is talking about.

[kevin c]

Seems to me that there are lots of different ways to shoot. Whatever you are taught first and practice the most is likely what you're going to prefer because you're better doing it, if for no other reason than that's what you're used to. You won't be as proficient in other techniques until as much time and effort is put in.

I see right handed shooters who are left eye dominant who have to do something to get a good sight picture. Whether it's canting the gun, turning the head, altering the grip, bending the wrist, or some combination, it isn't what the rest of us would call natural, but they still have to do it.

Even if, among given options, one is better than the others, is it better than the rest in all circumstances? I would bet not. Can the preferred style or technique always be used? I would bet not.

Maybe having some flexibility and options would be good.

[Alferd Packer]

S and W armorer used to fire a complainer's wheelgun upside down pulling the trigger one handed with his little finger while sighting the target looking under the gun down the barrel.
He would shoot a tight group at seven yards and hand it back to the complainer.
"Theres's nothing the matter with those sights."

[Alferd Packer]

My Mom used to shoot a .22 rifle right handed while closing right eye and sighting with the left.She was an excellent shot, but she shot a pistol right handed with both eyes open.
Also a good shot.
She learned as a child.

[waksupi]

When just standing and shooting it makes no sense to cant a handgun or rifle. I have done both shooting around barricades, though.

[kevin c]

Setting aside the mechanical and anatomic issues of the hold, I think I can understand one of the theoretical arguments for a vertical hold when the sights are mounted vertically: the force vector of gravity will affect bullet drop only directly down, needing only elevation adjustments. Canted, the shot will fall off the sights in the same direction of the cant. Additionally, bullet drop will never bring the POI back to POA at greater range.

I think sight adjustment and an understanding of bullet flight path behavior with the gun canted can compensate for the above when the sights are mounted vertically (above bore axis when the gun is oriented vertically), but maybe it'd be better to mount the sights canted to compensate (still above the bore axis for aiming/shooting)?

Regardless, in some applications the issue of cant may be minor. I shoot pistol at 6" by 11" maximum scoring zones at under thirty yards in a sport where speed is important. If loss of precision aiming and less than ideal mechanics still get me a fast shot in the A zone of the target, I'll cant the gun and not worry about form until I shoot a different discipline like Bullseye.

[dverna]

Reverse cant (palm up) free pistol shooter http://toz35.blogspot.com/2009/10/melentiev-and-minder.html

and yes bullseye shooters have using a slight cant for a very long time. The operative word is slight. A 5 or even a 10 degree cant is far cry from 45 degrees the OP is talking about.

Yep. I stopped shooting Bullseye decades ago. With the slight cant I had, I only adjusted elevation going from 25 to 50 yards. If I had known I had to adjust windage as well I might have got up to high Master. LOL

[MT Gianni]

My cant is much closer to 22.5 degrees than 45. Blanket statements and solutions rarely work for all.

[BCB]

Quick Load Program allows for cant data to be calculated into P.O.I. at locations the users wishes.

Good-luck...BCB

[tucumcari_kid]

I'm got my Gat and I gotta bussa cap in some Gangsta, ****'s already gone down before anyone has a change to see how I hold my piece.... sights is for little kids...