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View Full Version : Push thru sizing necessary with Lee carbide factory crimp die?



johnski70
12-31-2019, 05:11 PM
I'm casting & loading 45 acp with the Lee tumble lube 230gr RN.
My current process is to cast, tumble with Alox, push thru a lee .452 sizer, alox again (per instructions) then load & taper crimp with the RCBS seating die.
I was getting maybe 1/30 failure to go into battery, which looked like the bullet wasn't started straight; slight bulge to one side of case.
SO, i got the Lee carbide FCD, and now my 1911 is running 100%.
Using same make brass, I seated, crimped, then used an inerta bullet puller (RCBS hammer), and all bullets came out at .4515"

My question is, can I skip the push thru sizing & 2nd alox steps, since the FCD forces the cartridges into spec as the last step?
A random selection of as-cast diameters run about .4520-.4540"

DougGuy
12-31-2019, 05:31 PM
Unless your barrel has been throated nice and long, you will only succeed in making a BUNCH more of them not plunk by loading as sized and using the FCD. I throat barrels to accept a .452" boolit seated out ever how long you want to, limited only by what will cycle through the magazine. Even then, any boolit over .452" in any direction in front of the case mouth will experience interference with the freebore in the throat.

If you are seating down to the case mouth and don't have any of the shoulder of the boolit proud of the case mouth, your idea might work. However, if you have to seat that far down so rounds will plunk, your barrel likely has no throat at all, just rifling running all the way down to the headspace ledge, and this presents it's own set of problems.

tazman
01-01-2020, 12:37 AM
SO, i got the Lee carbide FCD, and now my 1911 is running 100%.
Using same make brass, I seated, crimped, then used an inerta bullet puller (RCBS hammer), and all bullets came out at .4515"

My question is, can I skip the push thru sizing & 2nd alox steps, since the FCD forces the cartridges into spec as the last step?
A random selection of as-cast diameters run about .4520-.4540"

Probably. The only way to know for sure is to load some using the new process and shoot some of them to see if any problems develop.
Look for possible leading due to undersize boolits. If there is none, you are fine.
A lot depends on the groove diameter of your barrel.
DougGuy does wonderful work on barrel throating. Sometimes that throating isn't necessary. You have to test your process to find out.

Forrest r
01-01-2020, 06:00 AM
I'd start with a expander that's made/designed for cast bullets. Lee dies are ok for jacketed bullets but their expanders are made for the shorter/smaller in diameter jacketed bullets. A factory lee expander next to a lyman m-die expander for the 45acp's. You can see where the 45acp brass left a ring on the lee expander button. That is from the case mouth stopping at that point.
https://i.imgur.com/AtiYtlr.jpg

Not only does the m-die expand the case larger to accept the larger in diameter cast bullets. It also expanded deeper into the case protecting the bullets base. The step at the top of the m-die creates a "step" in the brass for the bullet to sit on & aids the bullet being seated strait.

There's no need for a lee fcd die if you seat your bullets strait.

I guess I never bothered to read the directions because I've always cast the bullets, ran them thru a lee push thru sizer and coated them with 45/45/10 and loaded them. Now I cast them powder coat them & then run them thru a lee push thru sizer and then load them.

jcren
01-01-2020, 10:57 AM
I would add that if your bullets are not perfectly round, you will have a lot more trouble with crooked seated bullets by not sizing first. Sat down to crank out a few one day and after 4 of 6 were visibly tilted, figured out I had mixed up a bag of unsized bullets. The slightly oval diameter caused the bullets to rock when seating.

Froogal
01-01-2020, 11:05 AM
With the .358/158 tumble lube bullets, I have found there is no need for the second lubing process, but it IS very important to size those bullets and then use the factory crimp die. I tried skipping the sizing process, and setting the seating die to also crimp, but ended up with cartridges that had bulged cases, and would not chamber in a lever action rifle.

charlie b
01-01-2020, 11:41 AM
I'd use the Lyman M die (or the NOE die) if they had a powder through capability. Until then the Lee works for me. They are very touchy about depth setting.

I also love the Lee factory crimp dies. Gives most consistent finished rounds for pistols that I have had (I always hated roll crimps).

If your cast bullets come out at .452 then yes you could bypass the sizing die. Larger you might do OK, depends on seating depth and throat. I'd load up a couple and see if they feed and chamber ok.

One issue I always had with the liquid lubes after sizing. After seating there can be a bit extra around the case mouth that will build up in the seating and crimping die. That requires a bit of cleaning out every now and then. One of the reasons I went to powder coating.

sghart3578
01-01-2020, 12:04 PM
You can skip the pre-lubing step.

I size all of my 45 ACP bullets to .451" but I don't lube them first.

I cast the same Lee bullet as you. They size very easily. I then lube with one very light coat of Alox or an Alox blend.


Steve in N CA

mdi
01-01-2020, 12:39 PM
Your approach is backwards; shove together any components and once assembled, swage them to fit the gun. What happens to a good sized bullet when seated, crimped and resized? Probably come out undersize. Flare cases as much as necessary to get good shootable ammo now and worry about case life later. Too much flare is when the case won't easily enter the seating die; large flare not letting the case enter or scraping the insides of the die. Use a taper crimp die to remove the flare and check with the plunk test. While some use an FCD, it is just a cover up tool,hiding a problem.. If you learn to adjust dies and use proper sized components there is no need for one. Many of us have reloaded thousands (or tens of thousands) or 45 ACP ammo and never needed to post crimp resize their handloads.

K.I.S.S. Measure your bullets (every caster should have a good 1" Micrometer). If they are larger than what you think will fit your gun, size them. If your Lee sizing die does not gall and/or "tear" your bullets without lube, fine, don't use any lube (some of my alloys, usually the harder [too hard?] alloys "gall" or "roll off" lead and adhere to the die ID). Do not crimp, just remove flare with a taper crimp die and plunk test. I've been doing it this way since I got my first 45 ACP in '90 and now reload for 3 45 ACP guns...

kmw1954
01-01-2020, 12:56 PM
As some of you know as you have helped this is my first year casting.

I was given some sample .356" Boolits to start with and they all worked wonderfully in my two 380's and then when I finally cast my own I had cycling and chambering problems in my S&W EZ. Those Boolits were not sized. Next batch I sized with a Lee push thru die and then relubed with 45-45-10... Haven't shot these yet.

Have now also cast some 452-200 SWC and also lubed them with the tumble lube mix then tried loading them in R-P brass unsized and all passed the plunk test. I have 20 of those loaded and then have another 20 of the same that were sized thru the Lee die. These also have not been test fired.

The "M" DIE, I use a Lee powder measure on either a 3 hole turret or a 3 hole Pro1000 so no room for an extra die.

W.R.Buchanan
01-01-2020, 01:59 PM
I'd start by making sure I got all my Boolits started strait in the cases. That will probably fix most all of your problems.

I don't see any reason to size your boolits after you Lube them. Size, lube and load. The lube you are using adds no significant amount to the diameter of the boolits.

Now, if you were to Powder Coat you boolits then you'd need to size them after PCing because PC adds to the dia about .001-.002 per side.

My Happy New Year .02

Randy

Randy Bohannon
01-01-2020, 02:18 PM
Send your barrel to DougGuy he’ll make it right and no more fuss, load your as cast and go shoot.

johnski70
01-01-2020, 02:50 PM
Thanks to everyone for all the great points to consider! DougGuy: yes, for this particular round, I'm seating to 1.270 OAL, so the bullet shoulder, if not even with the case mouth, may be only a few thou above. Today I loaded & shot 100rnds, and had zero malfunctions, so, this particular process seems to work fine for me, for this bullet. I see your point if i was loading the 180gr H&G SWC, that my 1911 likes seated about .020 above the case mouth, but those go thru my Lyman sizer & lube anyway (moot point). These 230 RN's are what I shoot in volume for IDPA, Bianchi, plate racks, indoor 50 ft & outdoor 50yd bullseye, & steel challenge, so saving any step helps!