What's going on with my 44/40 brass?

[Stopsign32v]

I run this brass right along side my Winchester brass, same settings and all in my dies, and this CBC brass will not function in my Schofield but the Winchester brass works fine. The problem is I'm pretty sure the cannelure somehow is making or has a bulge and it will not allow the rounds to fully seat in the chambers. Any ideas what is causing this? Should I toss the brass or just use it in other guns?

Winchester on the bottom and top 2 are the problem CBC. (All CBC brass I have do this)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49170120258_b22015e67c_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hUZHG7)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49170120183_5d089d2fc4_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hUZHEP)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49170828972_f4c4e55f4a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hV4mnj)



Here you can see the seating differences between the 1 Winchester brass and the 2 CBC brass loads.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49170119898_28797d2a4a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hUZHzU)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49170597336_7bdac6e474_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hV3avA)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49170119718_c27d45d91b_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hUZHwN)

[Outpost75]

Redding Profile Crimp WILL fix that. Lee Factory Crimp might or might not.

My results mixed, which is why I replaced mine with the Redding.

I shoot ALOT of .44-40s in original Colts and Winchesters, as well as modern S&W (544), Marlins and Rugers.

[Nueces]

It's an informed guess, but I bet your crimping operation is pushing that thin neck down enough to bulge the circumference adjacent to the cannelure. Switching to a Lee collet style crimper would halt those shenanigans.

[onelight]

It looks like the case may be collapsing from to heavy a crimp is the OAL on both cases the same ?

[Stopsign32v]

Redding Profile Crimp WILL fix that. Lee Factory Crimp might or might not.

My results mixed, which is why I replaced mine with the Redding.

I shoot ALOT of .44-40s in original Colts and Winchesters, as well as modern S&W (544), Marlins and Rugers.

I'm using a Redding profile crimp

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I had bulging issues with R+P brass during seating (I would crimp in another step, so my problem wasn't the crimp).
44-40 brass is thin and prone to bulging...some brands are thinner than others...R+P seems to be the thinnest, IMHO.
Be sure to investigate how much you are expanding the case neck and what size your boolit is sized too.
while it's typical to have .002" neck tension, you may have to try .001 neck tension.

[M-Tecs]

My bet is its caused by your crimp. Easy to test. Try some before and after your crimp.

[oldsalt444]

Just my $.02 worth, but it seems the crimp looks a bit much. First, trim the cases to the same length. The CBC looks a tad longer than the Winchester. Second, are you bullet seating and crimping in the same die? I gave that up long ago. I always crimp as a separate step using a Lee Factory Crimp die. Always worked well for me.

[country gent]

Ink a couple of the problem cartridges and chamber when the ink is dry press in hard and where the ink is rubbed is your problem. It does look like a bulge just ahead if the chanelure. Not sure if its crimp or not getting sized down far enough on the neck. If you have a feeler gage set put the thickest you can under the rim in the case holder and size see if it helps

[Stopsign32v]

My bet is its caused by your crimp. Easy to test. Try some before and after your crimp.

It's not. I tried some that were just sized and primed with no bullet and they will only drop in the chambers the same amount of length.

[Stopsign32v]

Just my $.02 worth, but it seems the crimp looks a bit much. First, trim the cases to the same length. The CBC looks a tad longer than the Winchester. Second, are you bullet seating and crimping in the same die? I gave that up long ago. I always crimp as a separate step using a Lee Factory Crimp die. Always worked well for me.

No I always always seat all my bullets and then crimp separately.

[Stopsign32v]

Ink a couple of the problem cartridges and chamber when the ink is dry press in hard and where the ink is rubbed is your problem. It does look like a bulge just ahead if the chanelure. Not sure if its crimp or not getting sized down far enough on the neck. If you have a feeler gage set put the thickest you can under the rim in the case holder and size see if it helps

Should I just dump this brand brass? I got it all in a used purchase off SASS board.

[Texas by God]

It looks like the bulge is above the cannelure. Try backing your seating die away from the shell holder and readjust seating depth. Or trim that CBC brass- maybe it's too long.

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[country gent]

That depends on how much f it there is and you "status". once you find the problem and get it sized and fire formed out right it should be fine. Depending what you find it may be a simple fix of readjusting the die, a shim washer flued into the shell holder or working a shell holder down some. ( Facing the die also works here). Measure rim thickness between good and problem cases. This may give an idea. Ink the case and look for rub marks after chambering. If you have good mics and feel measure the neck at the mouth and just in front of the shoulder. Once the problem is found and cured this brass should be okay

[Larry Gibson]

Mic the outside diameter of both brands with the bullets seated. Many chamber necks in 44-40 are tight. My OM Vaquero with chamber .430 sized bullets in W-W cases but not CBC cases. For CBC cases the bullets must be sized .429 for the loaded cartridge to chamber. Otherwise they go in just about as far as yours.

[Stopsign32v]

It might be worth stating that the bullet used is a .428

[Stopsign32v]

Now I haven't been reloading long at all, but to me it is kinda obvious that the parts where the arrow are, are the problem. If you look at the Winchester brass it doesn't have that bulge right there and I think that is what is getting caught up in the chamber. I just don't know why it is there. Could a previous reloader have caused this and my dies just wont remove it? I do know for facts these brass have been reloaded an unknown number of times. I got them for a song.

And I don't feel I've over crimped these at all. Could be wrong though...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49171511317_2eeb714ef7_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hV7RcT)

[onelight]

It's not. I tried some that were just sized and primed with no bullet and they will only drop in the chambers the same amount of length.
Are you full length resizing ? I don't understand why a full length resized case would not drop in the chamber . I must be missing something .

[243winxb]

Check trim length.

Try a different lube in a steel fl die. Not a spray. Is the whole lenght of the case body lubed.
RCBS 2

Lube the case necks inside and outside before sizing.

[Stopsign32v]

Are you full length resizing ? I don't understand why a full length resized case would not drop in the chamber . I must be missing something .

YES I am

[Stopsign32v]

Try a different lube in a steel fl die. Not a spray. Is the whole lenght of the case body lubed.


I have always used the Hornady spray. In fact I've had some issues with 50-70 cases dragging and marking with the spray. I think I need to change to a better lube.

[Walks]

The Hornady Spray Lube is what I use, in a Sinclair Spray Lube block(Brownells). It has only 2 rows, and I wait at least 10 minutes for the 1st block to dry before I start sizing. That's the problem most have that fail with the Hornady Spray Lube. The 1st coat on the 1st block has to be heavy and DRY to start. I always spray the 2nd block as soon as the 1st is moved to the Loading bench. That way the lube has time to dry.
Use it on .45-70's too. Then as soon as you've sized the 1st block of cases, reload with more cases and spray. Then size the 2nd. Rinse , Repeat.

I've never used CBC cases, but I trim all cases to minimum after 1st firing of factory ammo or before loading of new brass.

Never had the problem you describe, but like most here I think your cases are too long.

[garandsrus]

It's not. I tried some that were just sized and primed with no bullet and they will only drop in the chambers the same amount of length.

If the cases won’t chamber right after being sized, you need to run the sizing die farther down. If the die is hitting the shell plate or shell holder, grind down the die or shell holdef a little to give yourself more sizing depth.

It is possible that the case is too long, causing the neck to hit the end of the chamber and keeping the case from seating fully.

[onelight]

If your sizing die is touching the shell holder and they won't chamber like garandsrus pointed out they must be to long , have you measured the case length after sizing ?

[Stopsign32v]

I think you guys must have figured it out. I'm rather new to reloading so I've actually never fooled with trimming cases or measuring length. I guess this is the first time I've run into an issue. Looks like it's time to invest in a case trimmer.

Any suggestion on a case trimmer?

[Springfield]

CBC brass is much thicker than Winchester brass also, so maybe the extra pressure to crimp them is causing the bulge. And you are crimping way more than I do on my 44-40 rounds, using the same Redding profile crimper.

[EMC45]

Observe in your picture the amount of crimp on the case mouth of the CBC vs. the Winchester brass. It is more by a good bit. It in turn is forcing the sides of your case down and creating a "buckled" area in the sidewalls of the case preventing chambering. I would venture to guess if you took the Winchester and CBC cases side by side after shooting and sizing you'll find the CBC is longer or thicker in the case thickness. Actually I won't guess... I'll guarantee it.

[Alan in Vermont]

Any suggestion on a case trimmer?

Either RCBS or Forster, I have both and use them regularly. There are some accessories that are only available for one of those brands, therefore having one of each makes life easier. FWIW, I got by with only the Forster for a long time before the RCBS fell in my lap.

[Stopsign32v]

Observe in your picture the amount of crimp on the case mouth of the CBC vs. the Winchester brass. It is more by a good bit. It in turn is forcing the sides of your case down and creating a "buckled" area in the sidewalls of the case preventing chambering. I would venture to guess if you took the Winchester and CBC cases side by side after shooting and sizing you'll find the CBC is longer or thicker in the case thickness. Actually I won't guess... I'll guarantee it.

No this isn't the case, because the UNCRIMPED brass without even a bullet in them have the same bulge and will not chamber. So the problem cannot be the crimp.

Maybe the brass is too long and when I go to resize the brass it is causing my full length sizer to not go far enough??? This is the first time I've used this brass.

[onelight]

You may have 2 things going on 1 is when a case with a heavy cannelure is fired the cannelure will flatten out making the case longer
2 if you have your crimp die adjusted for a shorter case it will over crimp and collapse the long one the 38-40 and 44-40 require a higher attention to these details than most .
I hope this is your problem easy fix.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Stopsign32v,

Can I ask what brand Dies you have? Maybe a defective Die.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Stopsign32v]

Hello Stopsign32v,

Can I ask what brand Dies you have? Maybe a defective Die.

AntiqueSledMan.

Good ol Lee dies. Seems to do great with my Winchester brass though.

[onelight]

Good ol Lee dies. Seems to do great with my Winchester brass though.

One brand of cases is working through his dies so my guess would be not dies.
The cases that don't chamber in my mind can only be the base that does not get sized or to long for the chambers on his gun then to much crimp crushing the case.
Any kind of bulge up by the neck should chamber if he is full length sizing it may look dented like when you use to much lube but the sized empty case will chamber if not to long or to big at the base.
Or am I missing something :oops:

[skeettx]

One trick is to use the full length sizer to lightly size the top 1/3 of the cartridge.
De-capping pin removed, of course :)
They should then chamber easily.
Only for a short term fix
Mike

[Springfield]

44-40 brass can't be too long for a sizer, it will just move back the shoulder. If your sized brass has a bulge then maybe your sizer is not lowered enough and it isn't really sizing the whole case. OR, maybe the bulge has noting to do with it, the CBC brass is just too thick for that bullet diameter and the case is just too large. I throw out all CBC brass for just this reason. 44-40 chambers are much less forgiving than others , like 45 Colt, and they take a little more care to get to work properly. I have 15 different 44-40 rifles and pistols, so it can be a chore to get ammo to work in all of them.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Stopsign32v,

Just a wild guess here, maybe your expander is causing the trouble.
Looks like it might be hitting the knurled portion of the CBC case & causing the bulge.
Maybe try sizing a case without the expander/decapper & see if they will chamber.
I know the LEE decapping rod is a royal pain but it might be the problem,
or show that the CBC brass is the culprit.

AntiqueSledMan.

[gwpercle]

Too much crimp = bulged case .
Make sure all cases are trimmed to the same length .
Readjust crimp die to put a light crimp...the thin walls of 44-40 will bulge very easily so be careful in adjusting the crimp.
Inertia Bullet Puller can be used to break down bulged rounds or the lazy way is run round partially into the in sizing die until bulge is ironed out...this leaves boolit undersized but it will chamber and fire... accuracy may suck rocks but Oh Well .
Gary

[Rick459]

your crimp should look thishttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191206/8991ddad4989601fe015c1b1c80e89ca.jpg

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[garandsrus]

It’s not the crimp! A sized case with nothing else done to it doesn’t chamber, according to the OP. That only leaves the case not being sized enough to chamber as the problem. Screw the die down farther until the problem goes away. If the die bottoms out on the shell holder, you need th shorten the die until the case will size.

Once the sized cases do chamber, the crimp may present a NEW problem.

If you want a cheap trimmer, get the Lee setup. You will need all of these:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012823285?pid=136199
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012838679?pid=107333
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012835597?pid=476992
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012810383?pid=789334

I have several different trimmers and the Lee works very well for cases that I don’t do a bunch of.

[Rusty W]

My guess is the die. I had a similar situation on .223 mixed brass. I used Lee dies also. For an experiment I ground some off the end of the die allowing it to size farther down on the case. It worked but I switched to Hornady dies & no more problems...so far.

[Texas by God]

44-40 brass can't be too long for a sizer, it will just move back the shoulder. If your sized brass has a bulge then maybe your sizer is not lowered enough and it isn't really sizing the whole case. OR, maybe the bulge has noting to do with it, the CBC brass is just too thick for that bullet diameter and the case is just too large. I throw out all CBC brass for just this reason. 44-40 chambers are much less forgiving than others , like 45 Colt, and they take a little more care to get to work properly. I have 15 different 44-40 rifles and pistols, so it can be a chore to get ammo to work in all of them.15 44-40s. I'd listen to this guy^^^^

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[44magLeo]

Just as an experiment, load some of the CBC cases but back the crimp out by 1/2 turn. This will not be as strong a crimp. This will prove if the bulge is from the crimp.
Leo

[Rick459]

It’s not the crimp! A sized case with nothing else done to it doesn’t chamber, according to the OP. That only leaves the case not being sized enough to chamber as the problem. Screw the die down farther until the problem goes away. If the die bottoms out on the shell holder, you need th shorten the die until the case will size.

Once the sized cases do chamber, the crimp may present a NEW problem.

If you want a cheap trimmer, get the Lee setup. You will need all of these:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012823285?pid=136199
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012838679?pid=107333
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012835597?pid=476992
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012810383?pid=789334

I have several different trimmers and the Lee works very well for cases that I don’t do a bunch of.

i did not say it was his crimp i said this is what the crimp should look like. pay attention....
Rick

[Rick459]

stopsign32v
get your calipers out and your reloading manual go to the 44/40 schematics and take measurements the entire length of the cbc loaded round. compare measurements on the cbc round to the schematics. that will tell you where the problem is.
Rick

[M-Tecs]

Take a black magic marker and color the case than insert into the chamber and rotate the case. You will be able to see were the contact is. Once you do that you can figure out why.

[garandsrus]

i did not say it was his crimp i said this is what the crimp should look like. pay attention....
Rick

I wasn’t commenting on your post and am not sure why you would think I was. There have been 6 posts in the thread that said the crimp was the problem after the OP said that a resized only case won’t chamber, in post 10.

[onelight]

I am still stuck on the fact that if a resized case with no bullet will not chamber there is no point in seating a bullet or checking crimp adjustment .
It would seem to me that his case is not resized correctly or it is to long for the way the chamber is cut . When an empty case WILL chamber move on to expanding , bullet seating and crimp. Make sure each step in the process is correct before going to the next.
This is probably a simple problem if we could see his process.
I have had my share of wrestling with my own like this .

[mehavey]

That bulge just above the cannelure line on the case is the culprit

I tried some that were just sized and primed with no bullet and they will only drop in the chambers the same amount of length.... and if that bulge doesn't get fully ironed out upon resizing (and the die is bottomed out), then the sizing die/shell holder is the culprit. By any chance are you using a standard #14 shellholder,and not a #14B ?

...and/or anyone else around w/ another make die set ?