Why you do not load ammo for others

[Freightman]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/arizona-man-guilty-of-making-ammo-sold-to-las-vegas-shooter/ar-BBWXKfG?ocid=spartanntp
Why you do not load ammo for anyone without proper license it can bite you in the rear.

[Winger Ed.]

Loading and selling without a Class VI?

Yep......… That's a problem.

Even before we get to not paying the excise tax and armor piercing part.

I kept a Class VI back in the 80's for doing a little bit of high end rifle hunting/bench rest target stuff.
When a excise tax came in to go along with what I sold, it wasn't worth the hassle for the little bit I did, and I let it go.

[trapper9260]

When someone ask me to load ammo for them I tell them you buy the supplies and be there with me to load the ammo. only my friend done it the rest did not like it . Did not take me up on what my offer was.I just cover my own behind.

[white eagle]

I won't do it because most do not know enough
about it that they come with unreal expectations
oh load em hot or these won't group
no thanks they can buy them

[lefty o]

it goes far beyond any legal reason why i wont, and for the same reasons i wont fire another persons reloads.

[Petrol & Powder]

The Feds couldn't prosecute Paddock because he killed himself, so they went after the guy that manufactured the ammo.

The guy was running a manufacturing enterprise without the proper license and Feds had a valid charge against the guy but... you have to wonder, "How often do the Feds enforce that"?

[Handloader109]

No, I disagree, this guy was not loading for 'others', he was selling ammunition that he manufactured without a license. If you are selling, you need to have the proper license. No, I don't load for free, nor for for pay. Do stupid stuff, and it will bite you in the ***.
I think this guy was quite stupid. making tracers without a license? way stupid

[Petrol & Powder]

The guy did something dumb (and criminal) and paid the price for it.

However, I doubt the feds spend a lot of time hunting down illegal ammo manufacturers every day. That guy would have likely remained under the radar forever, but for that fateful sale to Paddock.

[JBinMN]

Link in OP will not work for me.

:???:

[JBinMN]

I found some links that do work for me & am sharing for any who might have the same issue.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/02/arizona-man-who-sold-ammo-vegas-shooter-charged/303053002/

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2019-11-19/man-to-plead-guilty-to-making-ammo-bought-by-vegas-shooter

[JBinMN]

I found some links that do work for me & am sharing for any who might have the same issue.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/02/arizona-man-who-sold-ammo-vegas-shooter-charged/303053002/

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2019-11-19/man-to-plead-guilty-to-making-ammo-bought-by-vegas-shooter

P.S. - Just a thought.... If someone puts gloves on to close a deal & it isn't Winter, when I am selling or giving them something, I think I would call off the deal & tell them, "it looks like this deal just isn't gonna work out", or something like that. It just doesn't seem like it is a reasonable thing for someone to do, particularly when it is something like ammo or a firearm... But, maybe that is just "me"...
;)

[Kraschenbirn]

We've got an auction house that runs quarterly consignment sales of firearms, equipment, and ammunition. Over the years, I've seen, literally, thousands and thousands of reloaded rounds...much of it unlabeled for bullet/powder/charge...sold off their tables without a hint of law enforcement - fed, state, or local - interest.

Bill

[KenH]

P.S. - Just a thought.... If someone puts gloves on to close a deal & it isn't Winter, when I am selling or giving them something, I think I would call...... ;)
I picked up on that while reading the article, thinking.... hmmmmm - I think I would be concerned right there.

[alamogunr]

Is there a problem loading ammunition for family members? I load for my 2 sons and 2 grandsons, using my components entirely. I do not charge for this. I only ask that they pick up as much brass as they can but not spend excessive time looking for it in the grass.

Because they are my sons and grandsons I am very careful to keep all loads to the lower end of published loads. I also go a little over board in checking against double charges or no charge. Either could cause serious problems and/or injuries. So far all I have loaded for them is handgun ammunition for plinking/practice. The younger son does not hunt and the older son, father of the grandsons, is well able to buy all the ammunition they need for hunting, practice and sighting in.

[drac0nic]

We've got an auction house that runs quarterly consignment sales of firearms, equipment, and ammunition. Over the years, I've seen, literally, thousands and thousands of reloaded rounds...much of it unlabeled for bullet/powder/charge...sold off their tables without a hint of law enforcement - fed, state, or local - interest.

Bill

Depending on how the ammo got there I could see that being a different topic. Just like you can manufacture a firearm and sell it if that's not your intention (provided the SN is on it) if someone sold the gun they had for the caliber or died off I don't know that the prosecutors will be too eager to go after them.

To put perspective on this think about the Columbine straw purchasers. They got sent up the river because a bunch of people died and it wasn't for a few weeks. If a person sold guns that killed yet more people in Chicago would they be prosecuted and if it was successful would they serve anything more than months in jail? Precedence seems to point otherwise.

I don't load ammo for others because I can't keep up for myself let alone any of the risks (multiple ones) involved.

[Petrol & Powder]

We've got an auction house that runs quarterly consignment sales of firearms, equipment, and ammunition. Over the years, I've seen, literally, thousands and thousands of reloaded rounds...much of it unlabeled for bullet/powder/charge...sold off their tables without a hint of law enforcement - fed, state, or local - interest.

Bill


Because normally, those laws are never enforced.

[Winger Ed.]

Is there a problem loading ammunition for family members? I load for my 2 sons and 2 grandsons, using my components entirely. I do not charge for this. I only ask that they pick up as much brass as they can but not spend excessive time looking for it in the grass.
.

I wouldn't worry about it.
Mass producing and selling the stuff, especially armor piercing is the issue, and what got the guy in trouble.

[Petrol & Powder]

I wouldn't worry about it.
Mass producing and selling the stuff, especially armor piercing is the issue, and what got the guy in trouble.

What got that guy in trouble was a mass shooting and a massive federal investigation that couldn't prosecute the dead guy that was responsible for the mass murder. That massive federal investigation then turned its sights on a new target which happened to be a guy that was illegally manufacturing and selling ammunition. And by the way, the feds rarely prosecute that crime but they damn sure did this time.

I have no problem with the feds enforcing the law, I just wish they did it on a more regular basis.
It's the picking and choosing on when the feds decide to earn their salary that annoys me.

[WILCO]

That's known as politics.

[WILCO]

A reloading manual once admonished me to not reload ammo and spread it around like so many Easter eggs.
Solid advice years ago and still valid today.

[trails4u]

Makes you wonder......had he labeled the boxes, 'for components only', as we all see so often....would it have made a difference? I'm not defending the guy, he obviously broke the law. I'm also in agreement that his prosecution was purely political theatre, as it happens all day long, every day. I don't really have a side to this fence......just wondering if a little CYA on his part might have made a difference?

[Rcmaveric]

I have had friends ask me. I tell them no, But the can bring their own components over and I will set them up so all they have to do is pull the handle.

I don't want the liability and it is illegal if I don't have the right license or insurance.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[M-Tecs]

Is there a problem loading ammunition for family members? I load for my 2 sons and 2 grandsons, using my components entirely. I do not charge for this.


Loading ammo for someone else is not illegal. Loading ammo for SALE without the properly license is.

Like you I load for some friends and family and I do shoot some reloads from friends. Some on here will scream the sky is failing over this and frankly I don't care. These are the same people that claim doom and gloom over trusting others reloads yet they have no problem hopping into a car and letting the so called untrustworthy person drive.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/faqs.htm

(A4) What kinds of ammunition are covered by the GCA?
Ammunition includes cartridge cases, primers, bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm.
Items NOT covered include blank ammunition, tear gas ammunition, pellets and nonmetallic shotgun hulls without primers.
Generally, no records are required for ammunition transactions. However, information about the disposition of armor piercing ammunition is required to be entered into a record by importers, manufacturers, and collectors.
A license is not required for dealers in ammunition only.
[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17) and 922(b)(5), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.125]

(F11) Is a license required to engage in the business of selling small arms ammunition? No. A license is not required for a dealer in ammunition only, but a manufacturer or an importer of ammunition must be licensed.
[18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B)]

(H3) May a person licensed as a manufacturer of firearms also manufacture ammunition?
Yes. The person may also manufacture ammunition (not including destructive device ammunition or armor piercing ammunition) without obtaining a separate license as a manufacturer of ammunition.

(H4) Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? [Back]
[B]Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]

[Todd N.]

Loading ammo for someone else is not illegal. Loading ammo for SALE without the properly license is.

Like you I load for some friends and family and I do shoot some reloads from friends. Some on here will scream the sky is failing over this and frankly I don't care. These are the same people that claim doom and gloom over trusting others reloads yet they have no problem hopping into a car and letting the so called untrustworthy person drive.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/faqs.htm

(A4) What kinds of ammunition are covered by the GCA?
Ammunition includes cartridge cases, primers, bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm.
Items NOT covered include blank ammunition, tear gas ammunition, pellets and nonmetallic shotgun hulls without primers.
Generally, no records are required for ammunition transactions. However, information about the disposition of armor piercing ammunition is required to be entered into a record by importers, manufacturers, and collectors.
A license is not required for dealers in ammunition only.
[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17) and 922(b)(5), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.125]

(F11) Is a license required to engage in the business of selling small arms ammunition? No. A license is not required for a dealer in ammunition only, but a manufacturer or an importer of ammunition must be licensed.
[18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B)]

(H3) May a person licensed as a manufacturer of firearms also manufacture ammunition?
Yes. The person may also manufacture ammunition (not including destructive device ammunition or armor piercing ammunition) without obtaining a separate license as a manufacturer of ammunition.

(H4) Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? [Back]
[B]Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]

Thank you M-Tecs for being an informed, rational voice here. On the two topics that seem to be repeated here...

1. I reload for several people. I do not do it for profit but in the name of friendship and camaraderie, and in the spirit of working to promote the shooting sports in a positive manner. I have good judgement about the people I call friends- I hope you do too? When I reload ammo for a friend, I have no more liability than if I helped him repair a light switch at his house. This is what friends do.

2. The ammo manufacturer from Nevada was arrested and prosecuted because

A. He was manufacturing ammo without a license, and

B. As others here said, since the principal perp in the case was dead, SOMEONE had to go to jail. He did break the law with his ammo business, and he did earn arrest and prosecution.

[trapper9260]

For how the law is that is why I have the person with me to help to reload the ammo and have them buy all the supplies. I do not want anyone to come back on me for it and I am picky on who I would do it with. I did in the past had someone ask me to reload ammo for them .I told them you buy the supplies and need to be with me to do it. They told me no you buy the supplies and then load it then I will pay you. I told them no and that the end of it . lso for get with in the law is that is why I have the person help me for there own use and but the supplies them self .I would go with them if they like to get them to know what they need.

[hotrod13]

I'm in the same boat as others, if they want reloaded ammo, come over with the components and I will set you up on a press and you can make all you want. I have several people that want to, but never follow through. I only allow my reloads I make be shot through my guns only, that way if something goes wrong then it's my gun that is broken, I would feel so guilty if I ruined someone else's gun.

[lightman]

When I'm ask to load ammo for others I tell them to buy the components and come over and I'll help them. This is usually the end of it but occasionally someone does and gets interested enough to start loading.

I don't like to shoot other peoples reloads and will only shoot ammo loaded by a chosen few people that I know well.

If you are going to load ammo for resale you need to have the proper license and insurance. Its the law!

[Hossfly]

I won’t because of a possible squib getting thru, I have had 1 get thru and it was caught, luckily by some one who recognized it and took appropriate action. Especially on a progressive press. Semi auto prolly wont cycle but revolver being the worst. Can’t be too cautious even with my own custom boolits.

[FISH4BUGS]

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

[Idz]

The BATFE is explicit about licensing required for manufacturing ammo for sale and explicit about manufacturing ammo for "personal use". The wrinkle comes that BATFE doesn't define "personal use" . The reloader using their ammo is likely ok but what if the reloader gives (gifts) the ammo to somebody else?

[M-Tecs]

The BATFE is explicit about licensing required for manufacturing ammo for sale and explicit about manufacturing ammo for "personal use". The wrinkle comes that BATFE doesn't define "personal use" . The reloader using their ammo is likely ok but what if the reloader gives (gifts) the ammo to somebody else?

A gift is personal use. The gift was produced as a gift and not for produced for livelihood or profit. While finding example of reloading are more challenging it is easy to find the BATF view on what "personal use" is relating to the occasional sales for firearms without a license. This is a non-issue.

[RogerDat]

....2. The ammo manufacturer from Nevada was arrested and prosecuted because

A. He was manufacturing ammo without a license, and

B. As others here said, since the principal perp in the case was dead, SOMEONE had to go to jail. He did break the law with his ammo business, and he did earn arrest and prosecution.

I think the government might well have hit the seller up for licenses and back taxes etc. if they way he had been discovered was sitting at a table in a gun show. The shooting made him way too high profile for anyone to let this slide or grant a lenient response. One can call it politics but I think it is just more of a practical matter. No way left open to "go easy" on the guy.

The ammo being AP bullets and tracers PLUS the whole gloves when taking possession thing just makes law enforcement and prosecutors less inclined to want to go easy on him. Although depending on amount being toted work gloves might have been appropriate.

He got a sort of rough break but he also sort of did his part toward insuring he got that rough break.

I don't mind making a box for family, or even friends. It is a bit more hassle since for myself I will normally settle into weighing the charge every so many rounds after establishing the powder is dispensing in correct amount. For family or friends it is 100% weigh each charge. I'm with whomever said you want hot loads go to the store. I'll go as far as snappy or brisk but not going to load them hot. I wouldn't ever sell any of my ammo.

My preference is for people to come by and load their own but don't mind making a box once in awhile, not going to ever sell any. I hope to die with plenty of components but not too much in the way of loaded cartridges. Estate can sell components for a fair price. Reloaded ammo is essentially going to not fetch much compared to what the individual components would have.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I make for my personal family have for over 30 years , no problem for friends and family making them some ammo , problem there is not gov. but liability reloading for others puts you at risk for your ammo blew up my gun and or injured someone , do at your own discretion , this is a high profile selling to someone who did wrong .

I would hope my children shoot up my loads same after I am gone as when we shoot while I am alive , prudent reloading practices and pay attention , you want to make some ammo come by I will talk you through process and supply equipment , you bring most of the components for what you want , no problem , so many say they want to but so few do come to learn , so many are happy to shoot your ammo when there is none to be had but do not want to share the cost and labor , and they may shoot some once but not twice .

[M-Tecs]

While reloading as a gift does have a possible liability concern the same can be said for cooking a meal for someone or giving someone a ride in your car.

[trapper9260]

I make for my personal family have for over 30 years , no problem for friends and family making them some ammo , problem there is not gov. but liability reloading for others puts you at risk for your ammo blew up my gun and or injured someone , do at your own discretion , this is a high profile selling to someone who did wrong .

I would hope my children shoot up my loads same after I am gone as when we shoot while I am alive , prudent reloading practices and pay attention , you want to make some ammo come by I will talk you through process and supply equipment , you bring most of the components for what you want , no problem , so many say they want to but so few do come to learn , so many are happy to shoot your ammo when there is none to be had but do not want to share the cost and labor , and they may shoot some once but not twice .

Your last part sums it up very well. That is what alot want to do. do not shear the cost or labor, They are the one that wants it let them spend the time and cost into it .

[Pighunter]

When someone ask me to load ammo for them I tell them you buy the supplies and be there with me to load the ammo. only my friend done it the rest did not like it . Did not take me up on what my offer was.I just cover my own behind.

Same thing I do when someone ask me to reload for them.

[DiverJay]

Whenever some asks me if I will load ammo for them, I always take it as they either want free ammo from me or they want my time for free. Otherwise, they'd go to the store and buy it themselves. Sorry but I don't work for free.

[RogerDat]

While reloading as a gift does have a possible liability concern the same can be said for cooking a meal for someone or giving someone a ride in your car.
Exactly! One takes appropriate precautions for these activities. Grandkids in restraints on a car ride, not cutting up vegatables on same surface one cut up raw chicken etc. No different for reloading, because the potential downside of faulty ammo being really bad one has to take an appropriate level of care. However unlike driving reloading is a lot less dependent on all the other crazy drivers.

Selling anything is always a different proposition than giving it away. Otherwise why does a call girl get arrested but a party girl just gets invited to lots of events.

I think the case where one might get vulnerable even if giving away ammo is someone who say works as a gunsmith or has an FFL and buys and sells firearms a bit. The recipient might argue that even though the ammo was "free" it was coming from someone who could be viewed as a professional and thus would have a greater expectation of being professional quality. Not a lot different than an auto mechanic helping you with your brakes and then something goes wrong. Not sure how that would fly in the courts but I would have more cause for concern if I was in that position.

[jimlj]

Loading ammo for someone else is not illegal. Loading ammo for SALE without the properly license is.

Like you I load for some friends and family and I do shoot some reloads from friends. Some on here will scream the sky is failing over this and frankly I don't care. These are the same people that claim doom and gloom over trusting others reloads yet they have no problem hopping into a car and letting the so called untrustworthy person drive.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/faqs.htm

(A4) What kinds of ammunition are covered by the GCA?
Ammunition includes cartridge cases, primers, bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm.
Items NOT covered include blank ammunition, tear gas ammunition, pellets and nonmetallic shotgun hulls without primers.
Generally, no records are required for ammunition transactions. However, information about the disposition of armor piercing ammunition is required to be entered into a record by importers, manufacturers, and collectors.
A license is not required for dealers in ammunition only.
[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17) and 922(b)(5), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.125]

(F11) Is a license required to engage in the business of selling small arms ammunition? No. A license is not required for a dealer in ammunition only, but a manufacturer or an importer of ammunition must be licensed.
[18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B)]

(H3) May a person licensed as a manufacturer of firearms also manufacture ammunition?
Yes. The person may also manufacture ammunition (not including destructive device ammunition or armor piercing ammunition) without obtaining a separate license as a manufacturer of ammunition.

(H4) Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? [Back]
[B]Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]

Am I missing something here?? Cartridge cases?? Does someone selling me once fired brass need a license?? If I pick up a bucket of range brass do I need a license to sell it?

[kevin c]

The way it was explained to me the critical issue is manufacturing or importing the product being sold. If I cast the bullets or assembled or imported the round, I need the license, but if I'm selling somebody else's cast bullets, I don't. I think the selling range brass is selling an already manufactured item (used, to boot).

In the action shooting sports, just about everybody loads their own, with maybe families being the exception where Husband/Dad loading for everybody. That being said, it's fairly common for folks to lend somebody ammo if they're short for the match. No sales, though.

I'm not interested in making ammo for other people. I'm willing to teach them to reload, if they have the interest, though.

[facetious]

I have not had any one ask in along time but my standard answer was that I didn't feel comfortable loading for others. If I mess up and wreck my gun or hurt my self it is one thing, mess up and wreck your gun and have you get hurt is some thing else.

[fatelk]

Loading ammo for someone else is not illegal. Loading ammo for SALE without the properly license is.

Like you I load for some friends and family and I do shoot some reloads from friends. Some on here will scream the sky is failing over this and frankly I don't care. These are the same people that claim doom and gloom over trusting others reloads yet they have no problem hopping into a car and letting the so called untrustworthy person drive.


Thank you for that. That makes sense.

I’ll occasionally load for friends also, as well as help them with minor gunsmithing work. I always explicitly explain that I’m not licensed or insured, will not do either for profit of any kind, and do it as a favor for friends only. I’m an extremely cautious reloader and I’m not worried about either legality or liability.

That said, I am a lot more cautious about such things than I used to be when I was younger. I won’t help just anyone.

Some years back I got a call from a friend. I don’t even load shotshells anymore, but had given him some 12ga in the past. He asked me if I’d ever had problems with them, because his gun just blew up!

I’m confident in my reloads but was understandably concerned, until he said the barrel split open at the muzzle just like in the cartoons. I asked him what got stuck in the muzzle, because that’s what causes that. He then admitted that he and a buddy had been messing around with cutting open shells and putting in marbles, making “blanks”, and things like that. I told him that whatever they did, SOMETHING got stuck in the choke, and that would have happened with ANY ammo.

He understand that, and realized that it was no fault of the ammo, but it made me realize that I didn’t want someone less reasonable shooting my ammo, doing something dumb like that, and blaming me for the damage.

[MT Gianni]

If sufficiently motivated I believe a certain agency could bring many of us to court for exchanging "free" bullets. The current climate, liberal as it is in many places. would laugh them out of the room if they tried. It could however be argued that what we do is manufacture components by casting.

[fatelk]

If sufficiently motivated I believe a certain agency could bring many of us to court for exchanging "free" bullets. The current climate, liberal as it is in many places. would laugh them out of the room if they tried. It could however be argued that what we do is manufacture components by casting.

A friend recently asked me to sell him some cast bullets. He was shocked when I told him that I'd give him a few, but wouldn't sell him any. He wouldn't believe me when I told him it was technically illegal for me to make bullets to sell. I know it's not a big deal and I wouldn't be "in the business" of selling bullets for just selling him a few, but I'd rather not cross that bridge at all so I just gave them to him. I told him that even if I charged for my time they would be too expensive; it wouldn't be worth it.