Trapdoor First Timer

[Trapdoor1130]

Hello all, I recently picked up a Springfield model 1873 at a gun show. I used to reload .243, .30-06, and 8x57 mauser with my dad from when I was a young kid to just a few years ago (I'm 24 now) but fell out of it when I went to trade school and then into my career. I'm getting back into it as he recently passed away and I want to get more into the cast bullet side of the hobby and do what he did. He loaded a lot of different calibers but took special interest in the .444 and .45-70. His .45-70 is a Marlin Cowboy. He was also on this forum (Pb4me).

Now, having said that, I'm a little rusty and would like to ask for some advice from y'all as he put a great deal of stock in what this forum had to say.

First off, I have yet to slug the bore as I've only had the rifle less than a week. However, when I do, and if the bore is in good shape, I found a load in the One book, One Caliber book that I think would be a good contender for it's modern maiden voyage. It's 19 grains of SR-4759 pushing a 322 grain H.P. Lyman cast boolit (No. 457122). My pops had about a hundred already lubed and sized to .458.

I was wondering if I should use any gas checks. I don't believe they're necessary in this case with such a low pressure load but still, I'd rather ask than be sorry.
Also, the book suggest I use a dacron "wad" over the powder. Now I've done a little research in this dacron business and I see a lot of people that say absolutely not and a lot that say otherwise. I've heard some bad stories about people using wads in their rifles with loads such as these and they end up ringing the barrel. Others have no problem. It seems to me as long as a person were to use a slim enough piece and insert it so that when the boolit is seated it just contacts the charge, you should be fine. More like a "fiberfill" instead of a "wad."

I'm very excited to get reacquainted with this hobby and look forward to learning more about the world of cast boolits.

[trails4u]

Have you thought about loading black powder rather than smokeless?

[bob208]

no gas checks needed. I would go with a heaver bullet. I like b-p loads also. with smokeless be carful not to get a double charge.

[Trapdoor1130]

I haven't even considered black powder.. I assume FFg would be the way to go?

[RedlegEd]

Hi TD1130!
First, my condolences on the loss of your dad. I recently lost mine earlier this year, and it's one of those sad things in life we have to deal with. Secondly, welcome to Cast Boolits! This is a great place to learn from a bunch of really knowledgeable folks. Okay, a couple of things. If you're going to shoot smokeless, be absolutely sure you stay at the low pressure loads specifically for a trapdoor. They are the weakest of the .45-70 actions, and can't handle the pressures of newer lever guns, and some of the other black powder cartridge rifles (i.e. Sharps, Rolling Block, High Wall, etc.) Unless your dad left you some SR-4759, or you are fortunate enough to find some, it is no longer made and you'll need to substitute with another suitable powder. AA5744/Shooter's World Buffalo Rifle are very good for this. Dacron wads are not recommended for these powders. As bob208 pointed out, gas checks aren't required, especially with a plain based bullet like the 457122. If you want to go Black Powder, I highly recommend you get the book "Loading cartridges for the original .45-70 Springfield rifle and carbine," by Spence & Pat Wolf. It will take you step by step through the process of loading BP cartridges similar to the original rounds loaded for the "Old Warrior." The book is available on Amazon. Finally, here is a link to some excellent information on loading for the trapdoor (https://goodsteelforum.com/forums/topic/larry-gibsonae%E2%84%A2s-trap-door-loads/) by one of the members of this forum, Larry Gibson. It's an excellent read and will save you lots of frustration trying to figure it out on your own. Good luck to you, and I hope you really enjoy your trapdoor. Ed

[Trapdoor1130]

Thanks for the info, Ed. I have one and a half canisters of 4759 and a very limited supply of IMR 3031 which looks to be more available than IMR 4759. I may look into that AA5744 as well. I understand these trapdoor actions are weak compared to modern designs. I'll definitely be loading at the suggested starting points for these powders. I'd like to stick with smokeless powder for now as it's cleaner burning and I've never loaded with black powder but who knows, I might try black powder at some point and have a whale of a time with it.

[M-Tecs]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190999-My-Trapdoor-Loads-Technique-and-Equipment&highlight=trapdoor+loads

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?298164-Smokeless-equivalent-load-for-a-Trapdoor

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?275156-45-70-Trapdoor-Springfield-loads-5744-and-card-wad-with-filler

[trails4u]

"I might try black powder at some point and have a whale of a time with it".

…………...join the madness! :)

Seriously though....I enjoy BP in the old guns that were made for it. It's not hard, not complicated, not any more challenging than smokeless. It's just another process, easily learned....and for me at least, I get to enjoy the cloud of smoke and some feeling of connection to the rifle's history. Dive in!!

[Trapdoor1130]

trails4u, ya know, I just might have to get myself a 405 gr mould and have at it. What type of lube do you recommend? Also, will OAL stay roughly the same (2.550)? I read where bp can be compressed in the case using a drop tube or gently driven down using a wooden dowel that fits near perfect inside the case. Thoughts?

[John Boy]

Loading data at the end of the website ... http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html

[waksupi]

Find some 405 gr. bullets.

[trails4u]

Personally I like SPG lube, and I pan lube mine since I shoot them as cast. But....you'll get 104 opinions about that if you ask 100 people. :)

[trails4u]

You can also find a powder compression die and inserts that will allow you to compress your powder column in a controlled, measured way.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1178/1/DIE-45-COMPRESS

[Trapdoor1130]

Thanks, everyone for the wonderful tips and info. It's a great first step.

[1Hawkeye]

The lyman 457122 is a good bullet try it with a little heavier charge of sr 4759 say 26.5 grs its a trapdoor safe load and matches the fps of the old winchester load for that bullet. The best mold for a trapdoor is probably lymans 457125 which is their copy of the old government 500 gr bullet with 24.0 grs of sr 4759 you should be at 1180 fps which is the speed of the old gov't load. Trapdoors are a lot of fun I just missed out on one that was marked 71st NY F co .

[rockrat]

You might need boolits a bit larger in diameter. I use .462" in my Trapdoor as it slugs out just shy of .461". The boolit I use is 420gr.

[Wayne Smith]

Caution, a full load (compressed) of FFFG BP under a 457125 in a trapdoor with a steel butt plate will hurt! The first time I tried it I went out and bought a PAST pad.

[soflarick]

Recently began my quest into casting nirvana. I have a trapdoor rifle, and a Lee hollow base mold. The lead mix I intend to use right now is a pot of fluxed range scrap that tested at 10-ish bhn using the Lee kit. My question: is 10 bhn an acceptable hardness for a trapdoor, or should I go with a softer alloy? I have some pure lead I can add to the mix. Going to use FFG Pyrodex as a propellant, and some dacron for filler.

[Jack Stanley]

Your term of "fiberfill" gives a thought that will keep you out of trouble . Dacron is not meant to be packed tight against the powder like the term wad implies . The idea of dacron is to be very light and fluffy enough to hold the powder against the back of the case . Trouble comes when using to much and packing it down where it can get running room to slam into something solid ........like the base of a bullet .

Jack

[40-82 hiker]

Trapdoor, you will really like shooting your TD. I have a 1884, and shoot it quite a bit.

I use 20:1 alloy, a 405ish grain boolit with Lyman moly lube, and 5744. You will need to cast your chamber as well as slug your bore (you might need to search CB on how to read the diameter on bore slug) so you can size the boolit appropriately (IMHO anyway). The obturation of the boolit with 20:1 is a key to this also, at least in my book. In fact, I use the same load in an original '86 Winchester.

Some use a hollow-base bullet in their TD, but I have never done so myself. Some like them, some don't... I've just never tried them.

There's a lot of good advice for you in this thread. We have a lot of TD shooters here...

Good luck!

[soflarick]

Jack,

My plan was to put enough dacron in the case it would butt up against the boolit and the powder charge, but I wasn't going to "pack" it in. I have a lot of cotton balls I could use as well. Just read that dacron was a preferred filler, and the shredded dog toys provide an ample supply. I had no plans on using a card over the powder, nor a grease cookie btw. I was going to pan lube the boolits. I have beeswax, lanolin, and some deer tallow to attempt to concoct a decent BP lube.

Would boolit bhn of 10 be acceptable for a Trapdoor, considering it's a hollow base, or should I add some pure lead to lower the hardness? I'm using the same pot to make boolits for a Martini Henry and 577 Snider (using different molds).

[40-82 hiker]

Just my 2 cents worth:

Whatever the bhn is, I use 20:1 alloy for my TD, though I do not use a hollow-base boolit. I would think bhn of 10 is close, anyway.

[soflarick]

Quick web search says your 20:1 is 10 bhn. I'm probably good with what I have. It's more than 10, less than 11. I let a boolit sit overnight before testing it with the Lee kit.

[Wayne Smith]

Remember that the buffalo (Bison) were killed off using 20-1 (Remington) and 16-1 (Sharps) lead boolits.

[Larry Gibson]

Hello all, I recently picked up a Springfield model 1873 at a gun show. I used to reload .243, .30-06, and 8x57 mauser with my dad from when I was a young kid to just a few years ago (I'm 24 now) but fell out of it when I went to trade school and then into my career. I'm getting back into it as he recently passed away and I want to get more into the cast bullet side of the hobby and do what he did. He loaded a lot of different calibers but took special interest in the .444 and .45-70. His .45-70 is a Marlin Cowboy. He was also on this forum (Pb4me).

Now, having said that, I'm a little rusty and would like to ask for some advice from y'all as he put a great deal of stock in what this forum had to say.

First off, I have yet to slug the bore as I've only had the rifle less than a week. However, when I do, and if the bore is in good shape, I found a load in the One book, One Caliber book that I think would be a good contender for it's modern maiden voyage. It's 19 grains of SR-4759 pushing a 322 grain H.P. Lyman cast boolit (No. 457122). My pops had about a hundred already lubed and sized to .458.

I was wondering if I should use any gas checks. I don't believe they're necessary in this case with such a low pressure load but still, I'd rather ask than be sorry.
Also, the book suggest I use a dacron "wad" over the powder. Now I've done a little research in this dacron business and I see a lot of people that say absolutely not and a lot that say otherwise. I've heard some bad stories about people using wads in their rifles with loads such as these and they end up ringing the barrel. Others have no problem. It seems to me as long as a person were to use a slim enough piece and insert it so that when the boolit is seated it just contacts the charge, you should be fine. More like a "fiberfill" instead of a "wad."

I'm very excited to get reacquainted with this hobby and look forward to learning more about the world of cast boolits.

I suggest you read the following; the first I explain how I load for TDs with smokeless and BP.

Also in regards to "wads"....there is a distinct difference between a "wad" and a "filler". The next thread in post #2 will give you the difference and recommendations. The last thread addresses sever of the powders commonly used in loading smokeless 45-70 loads and when to use the filler and when not to.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190999-My-Trapdoor-Loads-Technique-and-Equipment

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?148104-Adendum-to-quot-filler-quot-sticky

[soflarick]

Used the Lee 405gr hollow base mold today. Once I got into a decent rhythm, they dropped pretty nice for my skill level, but around the skirt of the base was a thin ring of lead. I assume this is because the piece creating the hollow base is not seated properly in the mold. What can I do about the issue? Graphite? It is not screwed tight on its mount, which I understand is necessary to allow it to self center into the mold. The mold seems to close tightly.

Also, poured some 60 cal balls for a Snider. Again, rhythm got them dropping in nice shape, except the sprue nipple on every single one of them. Didn't matter which of the 2 cavities dropped a ball; both resulted in the same sprue nipple. Not big, but noticeable and sitting proud on all the balls.