Unexplained Duds

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Ever get a dud that you couldn't explain? Not a squib load or hangfire, but an actual failure of the powder charge to ignite? This might be one answer.

My son and I were in the shop this evening, catching up on reloading some cowboy action ammo. I was loading 12Ga. on my MEC, and my son was loading .45LC on a Dillon.

He was flipping primers, when he let out a "what the h*ll? See if you can see what he saw (or didn't see):

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa48/LeviAstorbilt/SASS%20Wire%20pics/large2.jpg






Here's a closer look:

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa48/LeviAstorbilt/SASS%20Wire%20pics/large.jpg

This wasn't a fired primer, or one that went off when being de capped live. Notice the shiny interior of the cup. These were Federal #150 Lg. pistol primers. First time I've seen this in over 50yrs of reloading. Have had duds, but never knew why. Never caught a defect of this type in a primer. The boy's got sharp eyes!
Morgan

[skeet1]

Morgan,
I've been loading for 40 years and that is first time I've ever seen that too. The boy must have good eyes most people wouldn't have caught it.

Skeet1

[jhrosier]

I haven't been able to get much except Winchester primers for a couple of years.
I have had enough duds to make me wonder about the quality of current (unplated) Win. primers.
I used either CCI or Federal since the '60s without any problems.

The huge number of malfunctions that I have been having with current production .22 rimfire ammo is also very troubling.

What the heck are these companies doing to noticeably reduce the quality?

Jack

[44man]

First time I have seen that too. I use the Lee and I look to see if a primer is in the hole for the next case and to make sure it didn't flip. I see them all and would catch that.

[longhorn]

I've caught a couple with no priming compound, and a couple more with no anvil! Course, that's over 35+ years.......

[jhrosier]

BTW, I loaded a box of .45 Colt the other day, using Win. LP primers.
After I finished, there was a brand new anvil laying in the primer flipper!
The whole bunch went off, so it must have been a spare......

Stuff like this doesn't do much for my confidence.
I suppose I should complain, even though it seems obvious that Winchester doesn't care much.
I sure would like to be able to get Federal primers again.

Jack

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Jack, UPS just today, delivered 4 cases(20,000) of Federal LP primers, I'd ordered from Graf's on 10/26, fearing the outcome of the election.(It's not looking good:(). My cost was $526.06 delivered, they paid the shipping and HAZMAT. As a surprise bonus, I found a copy of the Speer Manual, as a gift for purchasing $150 worth of goods. True, it is the 13th. edition (2007), and the 14th. has just come out, but it's nice that they get rid of their old stock by giving it away. Nice people to do business with.
Shouldn't be too hard to find a few shooters to go in with you on a 4 case lot, and get free shipping. This comes to $26.30/box. Last gun show, they were over $30. plus tax and entry fee.

No, The bad primer was from a different lot.:mrgreen:

Morgan

[jhrosier]

Morgan,
I see that you live in a free state. Nobody will ship ammo or components to the Peoples Republik of Massachusetts, except to a FFL. I'm stuck with whatever the big distributors send to the local FFL. Most around here add shipping and hazmat to the prices and carry a very small selection.
It's just a sorry situation, all said, and no option to move to a free state in the near future.
Gas prices seem to be getting a little more reasonable though. Maybe a road trip to a free state is in order.

Jack

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Jack, I feel your pain. I moved down here almost thirty years ago, from New York, a state that I imagine is in the same league as Mass. And as a retired NYPD, I had a free lifetime unrestricted concealed carry permit. Still, saw the handwriting on the wall, and got out as soon as my boys graduated HS and College.
Morgan

[Dale53]

Morgan;
I would send that picture (the close up) to Federal along with the lot numbers. You may be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.

Many years ago I had a batch of CCI primers that would not fire on the first "go around" using a factory "as issued" revolver (S&W Model 14). They replaced all of my primers (and my supplier's) and added a premium.

Good luck to you.
Dale53

[EDK]

My sister-in-law lives about 30 miles past GRAFS' Mexico MO stores. When the wife (or both of us) go for a visit, there's a shopping list. They knocked about $30 off a 8 pounder of TITEGROUP because of a ding in the plastic container last time she stopped off. They offered to waive the HAZMAT if I bought a case of black powder and had it shipped rather than stopping by.

There is a GRAFS store in St Charles MO...about 40 miles away from home. I don't know the exact relationship and they don't have near the inventory of the Mexico MO location, but I got Winchester LP primers for $123 plus tax for 5,000 in August.

When I hear the hassle people go through in other parts of the country...or over seas....I realize how lucky I am. Even the local shop 7 miles away has a fair amount of stuff....he runs $1 or 2 higher per 1,000 primers and about $5 per pound on powder, because it is all in 1 pound bottles, than GRAFS. I sure hope Mr. Obama isn't the PITA that he could be. Maybe I'll pick up some more primers just in case.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Southern Son]

I have never seen one without priming compound, I did once get a CCI small rifle (I think it was Small Rifle, it was definately a CCI) that had no anvil.

My favourite duds were in a bunch of .45ACP (back before the government decided that I could not be trusted out of work hours with a pistol over .38 cal). The brand was Norinco and pretty much 1 round in every 50 (a box) had no FLASH HOLE. Pull the trigger, gun go pop, primer back out of the pocket enough to lock up my Springfield 1911a1 real good. I think that I still have a couple of them laying around. No primer (when I finally managed to clear the jam, the primers just fell out) and no way for the flash to get from the primer pocket to the powder, but apart from that, the rest of the round is ready to go.

[Johnw...ski]

I use CCI primers exclusivley, no real reason why, I have used them since I started loading around 1976, BR2's for my large rifle needs and 250's for my magnum needs. Back in the 1970's and 1980's I never had a problem with misfires, I started reloading again last year and the new primers have given me several misfires out of about 4000 rounds. I have removed the primer from the misfired rounds and they all have appeared to have a primer charge and anvil.
Heating the primer with a torch would fail to make them go off, however the last round that didn't go off was in my garand and after being hit twice I took it home and disassembled it and removed the primer. The primer appeared intact with a charge and anvil, when I heated it up it went off with a bang. I can't really say why that one didn't fire, it was hit twice and hit hard.

John

[schutzen]

EDK,

The Graf's Reloading in St. Charles is a relative of the Graf's in Mexico, but the St. Charles store is a separate business entity. Both are good people to deal with, but the store in Mexico has better deals.

[leadeye]

First time I have seen that! I agree send the picture along to the manufacturer, feedback is the best way for them to identify a problem.

[TAWILDCATT]

I would suspect they are running 24 hrs a day and pushing production so some duds might come up.we had winchester white box gov issue yrs ago that gave trouble in pistols.I sent in a carton of duds and they sent me 2 cartons of good 22s.they werent much better.:coffee:[smilie=1:

[Old Ironsights]

I use CCI primers exclusivley, no real reason why, I have used them since I started loading around 1976, BR2's for my large rifle needs and 250's for my magnum needs. Back in the 1970's and 1980's I never had a problem with misfires, I started reloading again last year and the new primers have given me several misfires out of about 4000 rounds. I have removed the primer from the misfired rounds and they all have appeared to have a primer charge and anvil.
Heating the primer with a torch would fail to make them go off, however the last round that didn't go off was in my garand and after being hit twice I took it home and disassembled it and removed the primer. The primer appeared intact with a charge and anvil, when I heated it up it went off with a bang. I can't really say why that one didn't fire, it was hit twice and hit hard.

John

I've got a LR CCI dud that I have to pop out and look at... I've had 3 or 4 (out of a hundred) that required a couple of hits as well.

[Lloyd Smale]

batch of wolfs i bought had some large pistol primers without anvils. I emailed them 3 times and never got a response. It was a lesson learned. For one when loading ammo that could be used in a self defense stituation make sure you slow down and check everything and dont use wolf primers for ammo your life will depend on.

[MikeH]

Boy, just something else to slow up the reloading process, but better to be safe. Like Southern Son, I've never seen a primer without compound, but did find one about 20 years ago without an anvil. I can only recall one dud that was caused by a bad primer since I've been handloading, and I may have caused that one to go bad by getting oil or grease on it.

Mike

[Bigjohn]

I picked it out in the first picture; does that mean I get a prize????? :mrgreen:

Failure to fire in any ammunition I use is something I check out the possible of, very thoroughly. Especially if it is a reload.

However, I have never experienced the lack of priming compound as the cause of the failure, yet!

Inspite of the modern quality controls in todays manufacturing processes the odd one can slip through. I am certain that any company which values it's reputation, such as Federal, would like to hear about the problem.

John

[Larry Gibson]

Lloyd

Sure those weren't Berdan primers? Wolf sells them too occasionally.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Year ago the major cause of dud primers was the way we handled them - one at a time with our fingers. Our grubby little paws were contaminated with oil, sizing lube or who knows what from the glass of whatever we were drinking or maybe just plain greasy sweat. After the first few duds and I was told what caused it I started dumping the primers into a clean jar lid and putting them on the priming arm with tweesers. A pain but the duds stopped. We didn't have the flipper trays or the primer tube fed auto primers of today. I remember the first set up I got to automatically feed primers for my press - I thought it was the greatest thing since peanut butter! Not to say the factory stuff doesn't fail once in a while. I've had dud primers with most all makes of primers, duds in factory ammo and have seen quite a few duds in military ammo, U.S. made ammo included. A world championship IPSC match was lost because the was no flash hole drilled in the issue (for the match everyone was issued Federal .45 ACP ammo) ammo's case.

It happens even if you're handling the primers correctly. Considering the amount of ammo fired vs the misfires our reliability rate is pretty high if not spectacular. Obviously it always pays to do a visual inspection with primers on the flipper tray before turing them over.

Larry Gibson

[Echo]

I MAY have a situation coming up. I was sitting watching Tv last night repriming some 30-30 brass. Did about 50 of them with my trusty Lee hand primer. Finished them, set them over to one side, and relaxed. A couple of minutes later I noticed something on the rug in front of me - it was a primer anvil. Oh me.

[Lead pot]

Last winter I opened a new sleeve of Br-2's and 6 misfires out of the first 1000.
I'm now into the third brick and haven't had a problem with them since.
They all had compound in them but some of the anvils fell out when I deprimed.
So it can happen now and then. Maybe they dumped a bunch on the floor and swept them up and put them back in the lot.

[azrednek]

Back in the early 70's I had a bad batch of Alcan brand shotshell primers. I had some duds and a couple of hang-fires. When I returned what I had left the dealer suspected I had got them wet and let them dry off because of some oxidation. He opened a box from his inventory, they looked the same and he exchanged them for another brand. I can only speculate but likely somewhere between the factory and the dealer they probably got wet. If I remember correctly the primers were made in Sweden.

[copdills]

He has a very sharp eye indeed, this is a first for me also:coffee::castmine:

[missionary5155]

Several months ago I was given 10 Winchester Small Pistol Primers from an old yellow Staynless Pachage. Nine fired normal and 1 refused to fire with 5 hammer blows. I dissasembled the cartridge. Powder looked normal. Removed the primer and it looked normal. Removed anvil and there was a distinct impression in the primer material where the anvil had been seated. This was viewed using a 10x visor. I replaced the anvil but rotated it about 45 degrees from origonal position. Replaced primer in same case using same Lee Primer tool. Reloaded primed case in same revolver and it fired with first hammer blow.
I have no idea how this primer was stored over the years it passed from the Winchester factory to eventually end up here in Arequipa Peru. Can vibration cause primer compound to compress or migrate away from contact with the anvil ?

[Firebird]

Don't know if primer compound can move after it dries/sets up or whatever (I have seen documentaries that show primers being made, and the explosive compound goes in as a thick mud), but if the anvil gets inserted too far during manufacture and is contacting the cup, that primer isn't going to fire as there isn't any compound getting crushed between the cup and the anvil.

[jdgabbard]

Last month out at the Range I took along about 500 .38spl rds that I had loaded with CCI primers. I had about 10-15 mis-fires. All fired on the second strike except for one, which took three. But CCI is loosing their quality. I am going to switch to something else me thinks.

[beagle]

Never saw that before. I'm sure Federal will reimburse you if you send the picture. Sh_t happens.

When I was in the Army,we'd occasionally get 7.62mm Nato rounds with no flash holes punched. The primer would back out and tie up the mini-gun bolt. Saw this on about three ocasions./beagle

[Reloader06]

Morgan

Care to share a lot # ? I'm sure that this will jinx it, but I have never had a dud reload. If you could part with a couple of those I'd sure like to have a few.

Matt

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Matt, The lot is # 25V555 These were #150LP primers. We only found the one, it's probably in the trash with thousands of used primers. If he saved it, we may send it back to Federal with a letter.
Morgan