Meplat Size Effect on Chest Shot Deer

[Bass Ackward]

Every year we try to learn something and give us food for thought. This years test was comparing the effect of different meplat sizes. I just finished butchering for this year's deer. We kept things segregated so that the cast deer were all on one side. All deer were shot through the chest from a broad side shot. All bullets were 14 BHN. Velocity for the 30s were 2000 fps. The 35s were all from 1900 to 2300 fps. One deer was shot with a 45 at 1700 fps. Ranges for all of these were 60 to 90 yards.

The meplat size on the 30s were .180 and the 311440 (whatever it is). The 35s were running .225 meppers. The 45 was a 70% LBT at .320. We all agreed to try and maintain this shot so that some chance of comparing apples to apples could be made.

Looking at these 7 deer, which of these calibers / bullets cut the biggest entrance and exit holes? If you guessed the 45, you would be wrong. This was surprising, there was no disernable difference in the autopsies of these deer going through the chest / lung region. Which meplat diameter did the most damage? The most blood shot meet was from the 30s and second place wasn't even close. I figure that was because they were 150 and 160 grain bullets that slowed considerably transfering energy causing shock.

No attempt was made to try and judge killing effect because that would open a can of worms that serves no purpose. And none will be reported. I am sure that this meplat information is going to cause enough thought.

Yesterday, I tried to bag one more deer, running at about 140 yards for testing purposes but I did not lead it far enough and I accidently hit this dog like creature that was behind it. Same size hole.

[The Nyack Kid]

BA
good report

how much expantion do you believe was taking place between the boolits ?
were bones hit ? and if so what effect did that have on meat quility?
what was the total amount of meat lost ? how much meat was lost in each indvidal deer with that caliber?
how heavy is the boolit for the 45 ?
are you going to try harder or softer boolits some time in the future?
are you going to try eating the dog like critter ?
sorry for the all the questions.

[Johnch]

I bet that "Dog like critter " died good also

I would have thought a 45 cal bullet would have done better .
I wonder if the 30 cal bullets tumbled after penatration ?


Johnch

[versifier]

If any of the bullets were recovered, could you please post a shot of them?

[StarMetal]

Bass

All the deer I shot with my 45-70 using the 405 RCBS aircooled WW's at 1850 fps muzzle showed no blood shot meat. The exits holes weren't that impressive as say compared to high velocity jackets bullet in 7mm or 30 cal. All the deer went down like the hand of Thor hit them. I was happy with it, got my deer, didn't ruin hardly any meat.

Joe

[The Nyack Kid]

likewise what joe said
the most meat damage ,to my one castkilled deer , was were the big leg bones where hit ,. bone shrapnel everywere but hardly any blood shot .
one deer to a test aint going to tell the story . i figger i will have to bag bout 50 deer 20 elk 20 bear and a moose or two to really be able to say i know what im talking about.

[Bass Ackward]

BA
good report

how much expantion do you believe was taking place between the boolits ?
were bones hit ? and if so what effect did that have on meat quility?
what was the total amount of meat lost ? how much meat was lost in each indvidal deer with that caliber?
how heavy is the boolit for the 45 ?
are you going to try harder or softer boolits some time in the future?
are you going to try eating the dog like critter ?
sorry for the all the questions.


I can't tell ya if there was any expansion but ribs were hit in most cases both in and out. Judging from the exit size compared to the entrance on each individual deer, I would say no. But whether or not bones were hit, hole size was the same.

No meat was lost on rib cage shots. But to the novice, the real damage appeared (because of the bloodshot damage) to be with the 30 calibers. The 45 caliber was 375 grains. It left no blood shot meat.

There was no eveidence to support tumbling as all holes were round. Bleeding with the 30s took awhile to establish. I suppose this was due to the coagulation.

The question we were seeking an answer to was how critical is meplat size to hunting deer? While we accumulate large amounts of data over the years, varriables and differences are never recorded so that apples to apples comparrisons can be carried out. Hard to tell what wild hair test I will want to try next year. This one just got over and my back is killing me. We are going to digest this for awhile. I just threw this out for discussion because mepat size is often a very opinionated topic of discussion.

The dog like creature had a bushy tail like a fox, was almost all black, and about 45 - 50 lbs.

[StarMetal]

Bass,

That dog like creature sounds like it might have been an Afro-American coyote
har har har. How about somemore details on it. What did it's head and face look like? Did the ear have fur inside them or pretty bare like a dog?

Joe

[35remington]

I would wonder how much meplat size would matter when the hardness of the alloy is such that some expansion of the bullet is taking place. I can state for certain, having done so by shooting deer myself, that velocities of 2000-2300 fps are ample to upset 14 BHN bullets when impact ranges are the 60 to 90 yards as stated. Centering a rib should upset the nose on the smaller caliber bullets, and perhaps this makes a "big meplat equivalent" out of it. The other point would be the faster deceleration you mentioned.

Perhaps the increased striking velocity of the smaller calibers was also enough to offset the larger meplat of the .45 caliber bullet. As for effect, well, I look at the lung tissue. Sometimes big bullets make small exit or entrance holes, and small bullets make big ones.

Can't say I've noticed anything that contradicts what you've seen, save that 12-14 BHN alloys work pretty well on deer at .30-30 equivalent velocities. I too would expect the smaller, faster bullets to decelerate faster and do more damage, but not kill any quicker. I could load my .45-70 to the same speed with 300's and probably bump up the meat destruction quite a bit, but I like my shoulder where it is.

[The Nyack Kid]

what do you think the impact velocities were with each respected boolit .
me thinks the meplats for the boolits are :
58% for the 30s
for the 311440 ... probably 62-65%
for the 35s bout 62-63%
the 45 is 70%
the 45 is for sure is going to be impacting slower than the rest
was the 45 going slow enough that when it hit there was no deformation ?

"I figure that was because they were 150 and 160 grain bullets that slowed considerably transfering energy causing shock."

for them to slow down much they would have to mushroom some what.
Is it posable that they mushroomed enough to make a mess but not enough to leave a big exit hole ?

were the wound channals the same size with all the boolits or was the one from the 45 way bigger ? with my deer the hole "drilled out" a even 1/2 inch till i hit bone the there was a fist sized hole in the meat.

what we need to do, test wise, is go somewere where we can shoot a whole big pile of big critters for scientific (yah that it) reseach . take lots of photos mesurements , and the like . then we can publish our results and...and ...and
....

[Bass Ackward]

what do you think the impact velocities were with each respected boolit .

the 45 is for sure is going to be impacting slower than the rest
was the 45 going slow enough that when it hit there was no deformation ?

Is it posable that they mushroomed enough to make a mess but not enough to leave a big exit hole ?

were the wound channals the same size with all the boolits or was the one from the 45 way bigger ? ....

Nyack,

The impact velocities should have held in a close range. And the 45 doesn't slow down as much as some people believe because of mass. So they all should have been relatively close. Certainly above the expansion velocity of 14 BHN.

It is hard to get a wound channel through air. A deer's chest is 3/4" of hair, hyde, and bone on the way in, 12" of air, and 3/4" of bone, hyde, and hair on the way out. The lungs were destroyed in all cases. Some people like to say that they poured out.

And yes it is possible to either cut a much larger than or a much smaller than diameter hole. A lot of hole size is due to velocity. But it is hard with a cast bullet on a chest shot simply because there is so much less material for the bullet to react to. That is unless you hollow point or step up the velocity. But if this test is any indication, how big does a hole have to be and what part does that play in the demise?

Joe,

The creature looked to be a cross between a german shepard and a cyote, but it maintained the face of a cyote. I never saw one this dark or this large before. It was black on the back and lightened up at the head. Cyotes are getting plentiful enough again that they have attracted my attention. We had snow pretty much all through season here and I crossed enough tracks to get interested. Now I will have something to do through this long winter stretch and a new impact material to test my bullets on.

[JDL]

Intresting post Bass. You say the .30s took a while to start the bleeding process, about how far from the shot impact? Did the .35s and .45s start bleeding immeaditely? -JDL

[StarMetal]

Bass,

I know a fellow down in Oklahoma that had a horse ranch I use to ride at. He had this weird dog and I said what the devil breed is that. Well it was a cross between a coyote and some dog breed I don't remember. Perhaps coyotes are cross breeding with dogs, who knows. You know there are variances in coat color among all the canine family, like a black wolf for example. I can tell you that coyotes out west are larger then the back east models...hahahaha..back east models. Another thing too is usually fox, coyote, wolf ...leave a different track in the snow, by that I meant it will usually be one footprint directly ahead of the other in the snow, whereas a dog leaves a pattern that looks like two trails or staggered steps.

On to you bullet meplats. On how big should the exit hole be. Well it should be large enough so that if the animal doesn't drop soon from the shot that it would bleed enough to leave a tracking trail. By that I mean it shouldn't be so small that the hole in the hide slides back and forth over the wound thus sealing it from bleeding. Ross Seyfred did alot of research on meplats and came to the conclusion that in a pistols semi wadcutter design the nose meplat cuts the hole in the target not the sharp shoulder of the bullet. That's why he favors the larger meplat designs. We all know how even the holes in paper targets from round noses aren't very well defined. Yet thinking back about what Mr Seyfred said about SWC's, they sure leave a nice hole cut by that sharp shoulder, but that's paper. I'm sure skin and flesh reacts differently.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Intresting post Bass. You say the .30s took a while to start the bleeding process, about how far from the shot impact? Did the .35s and .45s start bleeding immeaditely? -JDL


JD,

I a started to answer this and then pulled back until I thought about it some. I can't state distances here without some interpreting that something performed better than something else. And we know how that will end up.

One of the deer shot with the 30s went about 35 yards and died without so much as a trace of blood except right at the carcus. This was the 311440. The other 30 was approximately 20 yards before blood started to trickle. The amount never got any larger before expiration. The 45 with the .320 mepper went about 18 - 20 yards, but blood was a steady flow when it started and highly visible. The 35s were using the same bullet with one about 1900 fps starting immediately and mine at 2300 fps starting about 12 yards from impact.

I attribute this difference to the amount of shock around the wound. I have seen this many times before where if "too much" damage is done, whether it is from meplat size or velocity, bleeding is delayed. Especially, if the animal doesn't expire quickly. This is more common with jacketed bullets than cast because of the velocity differential.

So if I had to summerize, it does appear that to me that you can have too much meplat for the job at hand in some cases. Or to state another way, you can have too much velocity for a certain size meplat. Either way you want to look at it, you need enough bullet weight to drive it. This test was just for cast bullets at recognized cast bullet "hunting" velocities and slightly above for better trajectories.

So is there a happy medium involved here between range, bullet diameter, meplat size, and caliber? I have my own opinions and in this case they will remain mine. This just serves to get one thinking that has the interest.

[45 2.1]

Our state started allowing handgun hunting in 1991 for deer. Since then I have hunted them with about all the common calibers. What I have found is you have to have good energy transfer to kill them outright. The soft cast hollowpoints do the best job for this here provided you put it in the rib cage. Shoulder shots seem to required more horsepower. I wonder how you could equate the amount of energy transfered by each caliber. Too bad this state doesn't allow rifles yet(other than muzzle loaders). It actually takes very little foot pounds of energy to kill deer provided it goes in the right place.

[Char-Gar]

Coydogs (coyote/dog cross) while not common are still not rare. Prolly what you nailed.

[versifier]

Joe, Coyotes here in the White Mountains average around 70-80lbs, but often run to well over 100lbs. Maybe they're smaller farther south. Anyway, their tracks, as mentioned, are easily distinguished from those of dogs. The state biologists here don't think there's much, if any, interbreeding. Not that it matters what or which if they're running deer (or livestock). Good practice. While I never shot any domestic dogs while raising sheep, it did amaze me how many coyotes wore collars.... [smilie=1:

[Blackwater]

Bass, thanks for the report and observations. This is of great interest to me, since I'm thinking about becoming a cast bullet shooter on deer unless I'll be hunting where long shots are likely. Appreciate your effort.

And .45-2.1, you're absolutely right about it not taking much to kill a deer if it's only placed right. I used to be a probation officer, and I got assigned all the night hunters because I was such a hunter back then. I asked every one about using .22 LR's, which most did due to the noise factor. To a man, their reports were very consistent. These weren't guys who are interested in theory. They just went out and DID stuff, and right or wrong, their observations were very interesting. The lowly .22 LR can and often IS used on deercritters, and IF PLACED RIGHT, is decidedly deadly, and it doesn't take long at all for it to take effect. Many deer shot go straight down!

I've also observed a number of deer taken with .22 RF's on crop damage permits. Amazing how quickly and cleanly they died. A LRHP probably does a little better on broadside lung shots, but for a heart shot it doesn't seem to matter a whole lot. As I said, shots must be PLACED, but given that, they make a fella' wonder what the hoopla' is about over the WSM's and a whole lot of other stuff, too.

Now that I'm getting more attuned to just getting "out there," and it matters less (other than I LOVE to eat venison) whether I shoot or not, I think shooting cast just might make things a little more interesting. Then too, there's the fact that a buddy once told me, "Dennis, you'd make your own AIR if you could." I think making everything but the hardware, the powder and primer would be a neat way to spice up the hunt. Most of where I hunt now is pretty close range stuff anyway, so .... the thought keeps looming in my mind.

Bass, your observations about exit size, meat damage and holes "plugging up" due to excess damage pretty much mirrors what I've seen with rifles and pistols. The killing effect is still something that we don't really understand, nor is the effect of what all goes on inside during the bullet's transit of the body. The only real consistency I've ever seen is that good hits result in quick kills, no matter what bore size, bullet wt. & type, or velocity was. Yeah, "hydrostatic shock" DOES show up in average sized whitetails, and it DOES help create in the tracks kills, but ONLY IF the shot placement is good. Even on an average size (135-180 lb.) whitetails, though, if you get toward the "fringes" of the 8 or 10" circle you hear referred to, it gets MUCH less reliable.

I DOES at least SEEM to make SOME sense that a good flat ojive SHOULD produce better results, but .... looking back at stuff like the .45 LC factory loads, that were used for many, many years to good effect, and the .44/40 and so many other calibers, THOSE bullets had only minimal flats, and STILL worked very well. I think the big "secret" contained in all that is simply that folks back then were, on average at least, better shots. Many of them didn't eat if they missed - a VERY powerful motivation to get really good, really quick! That or either they didn't survive contact with hostiles, which ain't such a nice proposition either, and yet another powerful motive to learn to shoot well really quick.

For many years, I've related the .22 LR info when discussions got heated about what it takes to make a good "deer bullet." Sometimes got called something other than a child of God for it, but .... ain't nothin' new there I guess. Modern hunters, I think, may just be reading too many ads, and getting out less. When I was growing up, I'd hunt or fish probably at least 4 days a week. If the ammo supply was gone, I'd pick up the slingshot, or if that was broke, I'd go git the old bow and arrows out. Amazing what a kid with a blank slate of a mind can learn just by doing and observing the results, ain't it?

The next rifle I buy will probably be a Marlin '94, and I'm really leaning toward the .357 vs. the .44 right now, despite my love for the grand ol' .44, and that it makes me think of Elmer, and thinkin' of ol' Elmer makes me think of all the old timers I knew coming up, etc. I'm getting to the point that getting things simple and as non-fussy as possible kinda' appeals to me, aesthetically if for no other reason. Besides, it ticks off all the right people! [smilie=l:

This board's one heckuva' place! Thanks from a fella' who's just starting to try to get into it, and finally do it RIGHT!

[45 2.1]

Blackwater-

Get the 357, you'll like the versatility much more, plus the 357 changes character out of a rifle, pure poison on most things if you pick the right bullet.

[buck1]

""While I never shot any domestic dogs while raising sheep, it did amaze me how many coyotes wore collars.... "" LOL!!
We got some of them in New Mexico too!
Good post Bass!!.....Buck

[StarMetal]

Versifier

Yeah alot smaller here back east. The one I shot here in TN couple years ago was all of 30-40 pounds. Tough little charactor though.

Joe

[JohnH]

Bass Ackward, don't know if the info will help you, but the Lyman 379449 (264 grains)I'm using in my 38-55 has a meplat of .210 I'm driving it at 1700-1800 fps. It is BHN 10 as tested with Buckshots tester.

My first doe was not a broad side lung shot, she was quartering away, 35 yards, shot struk the mid ribs, broke three and exited her throat, leaving a 1/2" hole. Second doe was struck in the neck at 20 yards.

I also took a spike at about 35 yards with the RCBS 35-200 (205 grains) from my 357 Max. Meplat is .210 Velocity is 1700 fps. Shot was broad side, slightly quartering toward, shot entered just forward of shoulder/elbow and exited just behind off side shoulder. Bullet size hole in, 1" to 1 1/4" hole out. Bullet turned forward half of one lung (figure offside) to pulp. Looked like liver on eviseration. Found no damage to near side lung. Broke a rib on entrance and exit.

Hope it helps

[hydraulic]

Versifier: New Hampshire coyotes weigh 70-80 lbs? Holy Cow! I killed 32 Nebraska coyotes one winter, and noticed one of them was a lot bigger than the rest so I weighed him and he came in at 37 lbs. That was back in the days when we were getting $30 - $50 apiece for them. Mange got our coyotes out here and I've only seen one so far this winter.

On the subject of meat damage from gunshot wounds; I don't think there is any when you shoot them in the lungs. I take the quarters and the backstraps and leave the rest for the varmits. There's not enough meat on the ribs to bother with.

[Bass Ackward]

JohnH

This thread is not about helping me understand or prove anything. This is simply a hmmmm type post. I just don't know how many people had access to this type of information without collecting it themselves over several years. Then how many of us write things down? That means that it becomes subjective at best. One shot angle of "this" compared to a hollowpoint test the next year of that vs. a hard wide meplat test of a 45 five years ago, this deer was running and on and on.

We knew that while we weren't going out of our way to be overly scientific about this. We have soooo many deer that it is just a matter of waiting another few minutes for the right combination to come along. The last fact that I didn't mention was that all the does were close to the same size and ranged between 135 and 165 pounds. So outside of just fensing them in, this went fairly well.

I know from experience that 30 caliber cast bullets won't hang together if you run the velocity up. They simply break up due to the strength levels coming from a 308 diameter shank. I also know that 45s can do severe damage when more muscular shot angles are taken and higher velocities are used. The 35s don't break up at higher velocities in my medium testing, but I am still learning what I can expect from what they can deliver. (on deer sized game)

So all of this was more about stepping back a few years for us and rediscovering exactly why lead performed as it did for our fathers. And then comparing apples to apples. The chest cavity shot is clearly the most commonly used and second place is not even close. The results at these velocity levels show why not everyone that chooses to shoot lead, carries a 45 caliber. They all work .... pretty much the same at cast hunting velocities under "these" conditions.

[Doughty]

Please tell me more of your experiences regarding this.

[grumble]

After reading this thread, I'm pretty much convinced that what we need is another epidemic of Hoof and Mouth disease so we can compare boolit performance at set ranges and angles.

I sure do agree that the subjectiveness of boolit performance makes it very hard to draw any solid conclusions.

[Bass Ackward]

Please tell me more of your experiences regarding this.


Vic,

I thought .... that might draw some comments after I wrote it and left for work. I swore I wasn't going to get controversial and then did that. I hope you accept my results and then test if you find yourself in this range. Remember this is for higher velocity.

I developed a 2600 fps load using ACWW + 2% tin (14BHN) for ductility with a couple of 160 grain designs. One is a flat nose and the second is a spitzer, both LBT in design. This mix, using water jugs and 1" of wet news print plus small bone, (simulate deer) almost always disintegrates or breaks into multiple pieces at this velocity. I run two tests with this medium. One at close range to establish a minimum range so a bullet will hang together and second to establish a maximum range.

The results were so bad that I have been afraid to test it for real. But 30s holds together fairly well up to 1900 fps impact velocity. I would not even consider anything other than a broad side chest shot if impact velocities approached 2000 fps with this mix. And quite honestly, the only way I have found to make a mix more ductile is to cut the antimony content with pure lead and then water drop it to get BHN back to the 14-16 range. Even then I had the same results. So I stepped up in caliber for hunting purposes.

When going up to 35 caliber or above, there is no similar problems with the ACWW plus tin mix in testing up to 2500 fps on deer sized game. I would have to test a heavier medium to tell for larger game. But I do have one 250 grain slug that penetrated 1" of paper and 2 milk jugs plus 13" of hard maple and remained intact and over 150 grains which is my self imposed cutoff for cast bullet weight and hunting game.

[Sky C.]

The meplat size question is interesting - I'll throw a little kindling on this...

My dad has done a bit of handgun hunting - small game. His experience initially was shooting .38 specials using the traditional RN target bullet. He observed that the little cottontails would just soak up the rounds with multiple good body hits and it would take them a while to expire. He about swore off of it but a mentor for the game advised him to try the Keith type SWC. He did & noted there was a night & day difference. Rabbits hit with the SWC rounds went down for the count immediately and would litterally bowl them over. These were with rounds loaded to the same velocity & bullet weights/caliber the same. Only difference was the RN vs. SWC profile.

FWIW-

Sky C.

[waksupi]

I've used as small as the 6.5 Lyman slug, slightly bumped to fil the troat, to kill deer. It was very effective. Ive used the 170 gr. Lee FN for deer, and one elk. It was very effective. I've used the Bator Light and Heavy's in the .358, for elk, deer, and buffalo. They were very effective. I have used the 240 gr. Keith SWC in pistol for deer and antelope. It was very effective. I used a round nosed 500 gr. in a .45-70. Had a fairly long chase.

I think I see a trend here.

[Blackwater]

Sky C, I've never shot the RN's on game, and precious few for anything else, at least in a handgun, but a buddy was telling me just this past week in a discussion of handgunning various game, that he'd had the same experience with the .38 Special and RNL's. This guy has shot more game with a handgun than most folks have ever SEEN, too.

It wasn't a cast bullet, but those of you who remember the old Super Vels of Lee Juras' make, soon after they were introduced, I used a 190 JHP in a Colt .45 ACP to take a big fox squirrel out of the top one of our pecan trees. The bullet nearly took off his whole right shoulder, and I could see his heart beating rapidly and his lungs expanding and contracting through the gaping hole in the shoulder/chest junction, but the rasdal STILL hopped off as though he'd never been hit! Another shot ended it, of course, but that one STILL has me puzzled, and I think is yet another instance of what is meant when we say that bullet performance is always going to be a bit of an "iffy" proposition. Sometimes, there's just no accounting for game's reaction to a hit. That squirrel, though, wasn't center hit, and as I think I stated previously in this thread, center hits are what it's all about, in the end, or at least that's been all my experience has been able to teach me.

I've been a deciple of the faster bullets nearly all my life, but now that I've got several over .30 calibers, I'm coming to realize just what the advocates of the big, heavy, slower bullets have been telling me for lo these many years. It works differently, but it still WORKS, and I think I'm seeing some things with them that I really didn't expect to see.

I have an old Lyman mould for the 311291, the 170 gr. RN, and have some cast up. I wish it was the 311041 with the FN, but do any of you think it really makes all that much difference? My goal is to shoot them at something near 1700 fps or so. This mould belonged to an old man that was my and a pal's mentor way back when, and I was lucky enough to get it as much as a memento of his life and what he meant to me, as much as anything else. I'm anticipating that at 1700 to maybe 1800 fps. with ACWW's, it'll do the work if I do my part. Any advice for me there, maybe just to make me feel better about lacking that FN?

[versifier]

Blackwater, A round nose bullet out of a handgun at sub 1000 velocities is one thing, but a rifle bullet at twice the speed is a horse of a different color. RN handgun bullets are not as accurate as other profiles and don't kill cleanly. SWC and FN designs for handguns impart more energy to the game, even when they don't expand much, while the RN is more likely to go right on through without significant tissue disruption.
I would tend towards a soft alloy for hunting but I see no reason at all why you should have any performance problems with the cast bullet in question. Maybe you'd get a little better expansion with the FN, yes, but the RN will still kill cleanly if you are capable of good shot placement. If you put it through the boiler room, you have a dead deer. :wink:

[StarMetal]

Versifier,

Where do you get that roundnose handgun bullets aren't accurate?

Joe

[JDL]

Blackwater,
A flat nose punch in the lubrisizer will make a small flat of about .17" on the 291 if it isn't too hard. -JDL

[Doughty]

Bass

Thanks for your reply. I haven't traveled into the area you are describing. So far, practical "high speed" for me has been at 2400 fps with the 31141 (180 grs, as loaded) and oven tempered WW. I also use a similar test as yours, first to see if it will hold together at 50 yards and then to see how far out it will work. In actual use I once shot an antelope at a range of about 225 yards with this load. The shot was from the front into the chest, however it drifted to the right, striking the shoulder joint, traveling into the chest cavity just missing the inside edge of the ribs, then nicking the abdominal cavity as it exited. It then hit the ham, just missing the femur before it exited for the last time. The goat ran about 50 yards before stopping and then tipping over. The hole through the shoulder was roughly a 1 1/4. The hole through the ham was about 1/2.

Veral Smith has of course discussed this topic in his book, and I can find nothing there to disagree with. To my mind, a meplat of somewhere around .200 when driven over 2000 fps makes an optimum hole through deer size game. Balancing the weight with the velocity will then optimize penetration. Right now I'm thinking WWs tempered to 24+ bhn, 225 to 250 weight, .200 meplat, at 2400+/- fps.

In handguns, or rifles at slower velocities, a larger meplat is probably a good idea. Keith, I think, was very close to optimum and if he wasn't, then Veral shurely was.

[Blackwater]

One other question, if y'all don't mind, sense getting quick kills is very important to me. Around here, if they run off much at all, it CAN be really hard to find them, and I HATE being out with a flashlight when I could be back home heating up some backstrap with some onions, garlic, and whatever else looks good in the fridge.

I once shot a lot of the Lee 357-150-HP's, and found that cast of straight WW's, they'd typically break off the petals, and work sort'a like a Nosler Partition - not a bad thing at ALL! However, when I added in some tin at about 2-4%, the petals tended much more to stay intact, and they made a larger exit, typically.

With RN's or FN's, what does 2-4% tin do to expansion? Does it help reduce or eliminate breaking up when the bullet's driven hard, say at maybe 2200-2400 fps?

[45 2.1]

With RN's or FN's, what does 2-4% tin do to expansion? Does it help reduce or eliminate breaking up when the bullet's driven hard, say at maybe 2200-2400 fps?

Reduce the antimony content by alloying your wheelweights half and half with pure lead, then water drop them. They expand nicely at that velocity without shedding alot of pieces.

[Edgeofthewoods]

Took out a couple of dogs the other day with a .45 LC and a Lee 250 grain RNFP. durn things where getting my sheep. Killed one ram who was protecting the rest. Durn wild dogs and such. The load was out of a NMA Remington 34 grains of FFg with a beeswax/tallow lube. I cast these pretty soft since thos replica revolvers are a bit soft in the steel. But it did the job. First dog dropped like Thor nailed him, 2nd went about 3 yards and bled out on the pasture. I recovered the first bullet
It didn't really expand that much but did show deformation from the bones and such. 2nd one was in a fence post.
Chuck

[9.3X62AL]

Having ZERO big game/cast boolit experience, I just looked on as this thread developed. This place is GREAT.

Now that smaller species are getting the once-over, there's a bit I can say--relating to Sky C.'s handgun/small game text and boolit shape effects. I have NO DOUBT that SWC designs and RN designs with a square front drive band profile (e.g., #313249, #358242) do a much better job on small critters in small calibers than the shoulderless RN designs. This latter design gets little use by me, reserved for autopistols that won't feed anything else. That's about their only utility--the things won't knock critters over worth beans, and cut ragged holes in target paper. About useless, really. They can be accurate, though--for all the good it does otherwise.

Exception--Lyman #452374. There's enough diameter and weight at 45 ACP velocities to plow down jacks with. The H&G 68 or #452460 is just as good, though. The flat point and/or square shoulder makes a HUGE difference at old-school handgun velocities (700-1000 FPS).

[Bass Ackward]

With RN's or FN's, what does 2-4% tin do to expansion? Does it help reduce or eliminate breaking up when the bullet's driven hard, say at maybe 2200-2400 fps?


Blackwater,

Yes. I use tin to avoid bullet break up that comes from using mixes with antimony.

Tin restores ductility to a lead mix that is taken away by antimony. Just never excede the antimony percentage to avoid soft spot formations.

[versifier]

Hi Joe,
In my .38's and .357mags, I have never found any cast or jacketed RN bullets that shot anywhere near as accurate as SWC's or FNHP's. My own experiments in .44spec, .44mag, and 45LC bear this out also, but that wasn't what I was commenting on. (I know it's not the case with the ACP's; they eat up RNs and love them.) Blackwater and Sky C were talking about hunting smaller game with .38spec revolvers and I stand by what I said. They don't kill cleanly and I haven't found them to be anywhere near as accurate. That doesn't mean that I don't think that there aren't any accurate RNs out there for handguns, there are, but I was not focusing on the larger picture and obviously didn't make that clear enough. Mea culpa, amicus meus.

[StarMetal]

Versifier,

To be honest with you I haven't shot alot of cast round noses in calibers other then 45 acp. But when you change to jacketed, and esp rifles the roundnose often beat any other bullet designs for short distances. Not talking about comparing them to super top notch match bullets either. Actually I can't see what a cast semi wadcutter would be more accurate then a round nose as for one thing the round nose is more aerodymatic, but on the other hand hollow base wadcutters out of 38 specials are deadly accurate. Interesting area to explore.

Joe

[waksupi]

Took out a couple of dogs the other day with a .45 LC and a Lee 250 grain RNFP. durn things where getting my sheep. Killed one ram who was protecting the rest. Durn wild dogs and such. The load was out of a NMA Remington 34 grains of FFg with a beeswax/tallow lube. I cast these pretty soft since thos replica revolvers are a bit soft in the steel. But it did the job. First dog dropped like Thor nailed him, 2nd went about 3 yards and bled out on the pasture. I recovered the first bullet
It didn't really expand that much but did show deformation from the bones and such. 2nd one was in a fence post.
Chuck

Careful of your shooting. If it is in a sheep pen, you might accidently ventilate Carpetman.

Welcome aboard!

[versifier]

Joe, my personal theory is that the round nosers, cast or jacketed, perform better at medium rifle velocities (say, up to 2000-2500fps), then the jacketed spitzers, both plain base and then boattail work better as you crank up the speed. Most of my rifle experience is in .30 caliber from .30carb (rifle & Contender), .30Herret (Contender only), .30-30 (in both) and up to .308 and .30-06 in rifles. I'm really just beginning to explore the last two with cast, playing with different alloys with Lee soupcans, 150FN's, and 180RN's. I load for a bunch of other calibers, and am slowly trying cast in one at a time to see what they'll do both in my guns and those of family anf friends that I load for. I have been casting for .38's and .357's for about 30 years, and they're well beyond the experimental stage, except whenever I get my hands on a new mold, but that's a hazard of the hobby, no?

[9.3X62AL]

One other use for RN boolit designs in revolvers that was mentioned in an early 1980's article in "Handloader" by Ken Waters--this dealing with the 32-20 WCF in revolvers. He stated that the shoulderless RN design might self-center in the forcing cone better than the shouldered SWC's, causing the shoulderless boolits to possibly not be distorted by their passage into the forcing cone and bore as much as a shouldered boolit. Some revolvers don't index cylinder throats to forcing cone as well as others do.

Anyway--the Lee 100 grain RN shoots pretty well from both of my 32-20 wheelers, and until I got the MM Short Fat Thirty x 120 grainer--the Lee was my go-to boolit for those guns. The MMSFT shoots better in both, and its flat-nosed aspect on the few examples of live critters I've tagged with it does a lot better work than the Lee RN did. DRT--and not much post-contact flopping, either. The MMSFT looks like a Lyman #462560 that shortened considerably and shrunk in the wash, for lack of a better description.

[wills]

Careful of your shooting. If it is in a sheep pen, you might accidently ventilate Carpetman.

Welcome aboard!

He is busy repairing the bullet holes in his dog suit.

[txbirdman]

Deputy Al could be right about that shoulderless RN bullet. It seems that the truncated cones have exceptional accuracy in my experience.