Bismuth/Tin bullet casting

[Rizzo]

In a previous thread that I posted, ( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?386647-Casting-copper-or-bullets )I was looking into casting some non-lead bullets due to California's non-lead hunting law.

Through some input there I went to Roto-Metals and ultimately purchased three pounds of their Bismuth/Tin (88%/12%) alloy.

Why not just buy copper bullets to reload?
Well, because I am a caster and like to "roll my own" when it makes sense.
Generally speaking, the copper bullets are about $1.00 each and from my calcs, my cast Bismuth/Tin bullets will be initially about $.36.
I say initially because I will be shooting them into a bullet trap (At 75 yards) in my backyard and will recover the bullets for re-use, which will bring the cost per round down as I re-use.

I did a casting session using my Lee pot with a PID Temperature Controller, which is basically a thermostat on steroids and also used a 358-158-RF 6 cavity Lee mold.
I will be shooting these from my Henry Big Boy Steel 357 Mag carbine.

Initially I set the temperature for 625 deg. F.
This worked but I found that although the sprue would appear to be hardened, it was not, and I had some smearing when the sprue plate was opened.
I then set the temp to 575 deg. F and that helped.

(Getting long, see next post)

[Rizzo]

This Bismuth/Tin is....let's just say....different.

When the sprue cools, it looks very granular, but the bullets do not come out that way.
When I finished my session I poured the remaining alloy into a muffin pan to make an ingot.
After pouring it looked a bit lumpy so I used an old screwdriver to stir it up and as the alloy cooled down it felt as if I was stirring wet sand.

Another thing, The bullets cast weighed 141 grains from my mold and were .361" diameter.
Having to wait longer for the alloy to cool in the mold made it a bit harder to open the mold to release the bullets.
This stuff seems to expand more than lead alloys.
I checked the hardness (BHN) using a Cabin Tree Lead Tester and it came out at 12 BHN.
Perhaps over time it will harden more. I will be testing that periodically.

I've done some research in the Reloading Manuals and have developed some tests loads that I will be using soon.

More info to come as I progress with this Bismuth/Tin testing.

[Rizzo]

I took some pictures during my Bismuth/Tin casting session.
Here is what I bought from RotoMetals:

Here is what the Sprue looked like:

Here is how the bullets looked after casting:

I smashed a bullets to seem if it would smash but it was brittle and broke in half.
Here is what it looked like:
(As mentioned, it tested at 12 BHN)

[JBinMN]

Thanks for sharing your findings! Very Interesting!
:)

I am sure that there will be others who thank you as well.

Please add more when ya can.
;)

[reddog81]

Interesting. 141 grains is a decent weight, only 10% less than the weight with lead. I’d assume you could use the same load data since the bullet is taking the same space inside the brass...

Are you going to do any testing to see if accuracy is better or worse than with lead?

Do you lube or powder coat or shoot as is?

[Bookworm]

Look at the structure of the metal in the 4th pic. The grain is so large, it looks like chunks.

Almost looks like it's facets of a cut gem. Breaks along a fault line.

I would be concerned about that boolit shattering on impact with bone.

Having said all that, thanks for the report ! Fascinating !

[megasupermagnum]

I've never cast a bismuth bullet, but I do make my own bismuth shot. I've tried to describe that "slushy" stage to people before. It's odd isn't it? It's not like the lead solidus stage, it's different. You think the bismuth is solid, but it is not. It's not just a crust either. It's something you have to see to understand.

Anyway, at 12% tin, I hope those hold together well. Shoot some into wood blocks like some 2x4's stacked together. If they hold up to that, they will perform great on animals.

Bismuth is not as good as lead. As much as the greenie weenies want it to be, there has yet to be a Lead substitute developed that costs less than $50 per pound. With non-toxic metals you can have softish shot/bullets that are lighter than lead, or super hard shot/bullets that are even heavier than lead, not both. Both ways are as expensive as heck. Nice Shot was the only thing I'm aware of that has even come close to the properties lead shot. At $50+ per pound, it was a commercial flop.

Bismuth is about as close as you can get, plus it's one of the least expensive non-lead alternatives, and it can be made into both shot and bullets the same way lead is.

[Burnt Fingers]

Lead shrinks as it cools. Bismuth/Tin expands.

[Bigslug]

I've pretty much opted to stick with .30 caliber bullets and Barnes TTSX's for my California hunting, but my Dad the Retired Old Man Of Leisure has been playing around with this stuff for some of his more obscure diameter options.

We found that the mostly bismuth stuff was brittle in our jug tests (I know, water isn't meat, but it's what we've got). We've been playing with the other Rotometals alloy that is mostly tin. Zero expansion even in water at close range. Decent accuracy, but given that it's about 70% the weight of lead per unit of volume, velocity retention and trajectory are an issue.

Hollow points might be an option but getting even solids made of this material out of the molds is a challenge and a half. Adding nose pins would be a nightmare. Seems like the path with this stuff is big meplats, kicking up the velocities, and staying under 150 yards.

[Rizzo]

Interesting. 141 grains is a decent weight, only 10% less than the weight with lead. I’d assume you could use the same load data since the bullet is taking the same space inside the brass...

Are you going to do any testing to see if accuracy is better or worse than with lead?

Do you lube or powder coat or shoot as is?
Yes, as mentioned, I have researched Reloading Manuals to get some load data.
I focused on 140 grain bullets to get a load data range to test.
Testing to be done next week, if no rain.

I size and lube using an RCBS Lub-a-matic 2

From slugging my Henry barrel I determined that sizing to .358" is what to use.
I have been using .358" with no leading in the past.
However, since the bullets drop at .361" I noticed some smearing of the alloy after going through the .358" sizer.
Makes sense since the alloy has to go somewhere.
I decided to see what the results would be using a .359" sizing die and there was not as much, but still some smearing (swaging?).

To add to the load data testing I will be shooting both .358" and .359" bullets at the same bullet weight and charge to see if either one does better.

I like doing these data collecting tests.
It's fun!...........but frustrating sometimes.

[Rizzo]

I've never cast a bismuth bullet, but I do make my own bismuth shot. I've tried to describe that "slushy" stage to people before. It's odd isn't it? It's not like the lead solidus stage, it's different. You think the bismuth is solid, but it is not. It's not just a crust either. It's something you have to see to understand.

Casting shot. I really never gave it much thought before. It sounds interesting and the neurons in my brain starting firing thoughts about "what kind of mold would that be?" and "How small could you cast"?

I did a bit of web searching and saw buckshot molds but no smaller.
Then I saw a Youtube video that showed a guy making smaller shot with his home made method here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmUur4ESZKw
I can only assume after my brief searching that there is a lot more to this shot casting.
Very interesting.
BTW, what size shot do you cast? Do you use a mold or ?

Anyway, at 12% tin, I hope those hold together well. Shoot some into wood blocks like some 2x4's stacked together. If they hold up to that, they will perform great on animals.

OK, I will be shooting into a sand bullet trap but will see what happens when shooting into a 4x4 that I have in the backyard.
Pics to be coming after the testing.

[Rizzo]

I've pretty much opted to stick with .30 caliber bullets and Barnes TTSX's for my California hunting, but my Dad the Retired Old Man Of Leisure has been playing around with this stuff for some of his more obscure diameter options.

We found that the mostly bismuth stuff was brittle in our jug tests (I know, water isn't meat, but it's what we've got). We've been playing with the other Rotometals alloy that is mostly tin. Zero expansion even in water at close range. Decent accuracy, but given that it's about 70% the weight of lead per unit of volume, velocity retention and trajectory are an issue.

Hollow points might be an option but getting even solids made of this material out of the molds is a challenge and a half. Adding nose pins would be a nightmare. Seems like the path with this stuff is big meplats, kicking up the velocities, and staying under 150 yards.
Good info.
Thanks for the input.

[pjames32]

Following. This sounds interesting!

[Rizzo]

Well, I finally got time to shoot the Bismuth 88%/Tin 12% bullets that I cast.
Here in California you can not shoot any animals with lead bullets so I decided to see how Bismuth/Tin would work.

I shot them with my 20" Henry Big Boy Steel 357 mag. rifle at 75 yards.
The mold I used for casting was a Lee 358-158-RF 6 cavity.
The bullets came out at .361" and weighed generally 141 grains.
I have slugged my barrel and determined .358" would be correct.
Sizing them down from .361" to .358" created some smearing (swaging) on the bullet so I also sized some at .359"

I looked up load data for a 140 grain bullet from several sources and used IMR4227 and Alliant 2400 powders.
For the IMR4227 loads I used:
16.2 grains, 16.5, 16.8, 17.1 and 17.5 grains

For the Alliant 2400 loads I used:
13.5 grains, 14.0, and 14.5 grains.

To minimize factors that would influence accuracy, I weighed all of the bullets and sorted them into same weight groups.
I also measured each load individually and also set the C.O.A.L. to 1.580" on all of them.
I shot five shot groups in my tests.

After checking zero with my standard 158 grain A.E. JSP bullets, I started shooting my load groups of 5.
My results were TERRIBLE!

I was shooting into my 24"x18"x10" sand filled bullet trap at 75 yards and the first shot did not hit anywhere in the 24"x18" area.
I tried another shot and same thing.

I went and got a piece of 36"x48" craft paper and attached it to the bullet trap and shot some more.
I started seeing the POI's but the POI's (Point of Impact) were all over the place on that paper.
I thought that my scope mounting might be loose but,....nope.
I went through all of my loadings and had basically the same result. Very large groupings.
I mean 12" - 18" and more.
My loads ranged from 1635 fps avg. to 1800 fps avg.

This reminded me of when I tried casting for my AR15 and groups were very large.
The wise people here said that I was shooting them too fast (approx. 2500 fps)
I lowered my loads and FPS and the groups did shrink.
Perhaps that is the issue here with the Bismuth/Tin bullets.

In the end I rechecked my zero at 75 yards with another couple of American Eagle 158 gr. JSP and it was spot on.

My goal was to retrieve the bullets from the bullet trap to re-cast but not many made it in there. I suspect that some are in orbit right now and those that did make it pretty much shattered.
See the picture below to see what I retrieved. The AE 158grn. JSP are also shown.

Bottom line is I am not going to pursue any more Bismuth/Tin testing.
I do not have much Bismuth/Tin left over and with the bullets shattering I am going to move on to copper bullets.

I like doing this type of testing but it did get frustrating in the end.
Hopefully this will help anyone else who wants to try using Bismuth/Tin.

[turtlezx]

i think it would be cheeper to pay the fine and shoot lead
only been stopped 1 time in 45 years

[44Blam]

I'm wondering if you just shoot cast lead that is powder coated and claim that it is bismuth? Or the guy that sold them to me said they were bismuth?

[sigep1764]

Powder coat the boolits copper and a I doubt any heehaw game warden could tell the difference.

[megasupermagnum]

Powder coat the boolits copper and a I doubt any heehaw game warden could tell the difference.

The fine is one thing, you could get away with it for a LONG time powder coating lead bullets metallic copper color. The problem is if you do get caught, you could very well loose your hunting rights for a period of time.

Believe me, I've thought about using lead shot on ducks, and using buckshot on deer (not legal in MN). Nothing is worth loosing your rights.

[RogerDat]

I recently acquired some 58.3 Bi 41.4 Sn alloy. Been reading what others have to say about making bullets from it. Problem is what I have is what Rotometals sells for lead free fishing weights. Would have to purchase some bismuth to get it closer to the weight of lead. This stuff is .75% the weight of lead.

At $14 a pound this stuff is too expensive to be practical for any volume use. The 88 Bi / 12 Sn stuff is even more expensive at $15.50 a pound but I think closer to lead weight. I do wonder if more tin doesn't help it cast better, but at a high enough tin content it starts to melt at a pretty low temperature. At this 43% tin the bismuth alloy melts at 281* where the other 12% tin melts at 395* maybe in shotgun pellets it wouldn't matter. The wad might protect the alloy from melting.

https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-fishing-tackle-weight-bismuth-tin-alloy-281/
Compared to this https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy-88-bismuth-12-tin/

[Tom W.]

I have made boolits from nickel Babbitt years ago. No lead, mostly tin with a trace of copper and nickel. They were a bit light for their size and I couldn't tell you if they shattered or not, but they'd go through a deer easily enough. For handgun shooting they were great.

[RogerDat]

Found this data sheet on the alloy. Least size change between liquid and solid. Nearly the highest melting point of bismuth alloys. And as noted at Rotometals it is about 75% the weight of lead.

https://www.belmontmetals.com/product/tru-alloy-281f-138c-low-melting-alloy/

Given 75% weight that would mean a 190 grain 30 caliber bullet would cast at 142 grain. Still viable for hunting I would guess. Especially if one can increase the velocity a bit. Did have a thought, was wondering about the effect on stability of a long for its weight bullet would experience. I recall reading something on it but not exactly what I read. It was I believe also related to twist rate but can't swear to it. Was here on the forum someplace

[Petander]

I find it alarming that Rizzo got no accuracy whatsoever with Rotometals alloy.

I was going to order some of this but if it doesn't shoot straight there's no reason to re-prove it.

[Rizzo]

I find it alarming that Rizzo got no accuracy whatsoever with Rotometals alloy.

I was going to order some of this but if it doesn't shoot straight there's no reason to re-prove it.

Yes, I was very surprised at that.
Like mentioned, my scope was not loose and I started the testing using a bench rest and with a known cartridge that get bulls eyes with, then finished up the Bismuth shooting with another bulls eye cartridge and it was spot on.

I am pretty much out of the Bismuth/Tin alloy so I am done for now.
Maybe down the road I'll try again but with reduced loads to lower the FPS.
I think that too fast is the problem.

Give it a try.

[Petander]

Could it be that your velocity was too high for the alloy? Maybe it works for handgun velocities?

Here in Europe,we may be facing strange times... a total lead ammo ban has been suggested by EU. It may be true one day,I'd like to be prepared.

I guess there's only one way to know.

[Rizzo]

Could it be that your velocity was too high for the alloy? Maybe it works for handgun velocities?

Here in Europe,we may be facing strange times... a total lead ammo ban has been suggested by EU. It may be true one day,I'd like to be prepared.

I guess there's only one way to know.

Yes, regarding velocity (FPS) as mentioned, "I think that too fast is the problem."

Finland eh? Pretty cool seeing folks from all over.

<sigh> Hopefully the EU does not go the non-lead route.
One other thing about the Bismuth/Tin alloy,...it is very brittle, and shatters as shown in my pics.

I enjoyed the project but have decided to go with copper bullets at this point.
Good luck to you, if you decide to give it a try.

[wnc435]

I have always thought that a copper tube with a core of tin or Bismuth would be a viable alternative or even brass tube I only say this because I have melted thousands of military FMJ's for the lead and the jackets were in incredible shape and annealed. So I wasted some time and cut and resized jackets added cores and they are very nice bullets a lot of time spent but with bullets jackets @.16-.35 ea. and to just do a couple hundred for hunting loads? Could use spent pistol cases with a core also. Just thinking.

[Petander]

One other thing about the Bismuth/Tin alloy,...it is very brittle, and shatters as shown in my pics.

.

I remember bismuth shot shattering , I compared a bunch of non-toxic shotgun ammo in the 90's. Bismuth was hopeless,pellets turning into dust when they hit wood. That was such a remarkable failure,easy to remember. And that particular bismuth ammo was advertised big time as "better than lead".

Sort of hoping for better alloys nowadays.

A total lead ammo ban for all shooting would really change things.

Here's a link to one view:

https://www.gunsweek.com/en/ammunition/articles/eu-goes-again-all-out-lead-ammunition-ban

[Rizzo]

Thanks for the link.
I read the article and it is depressing.
They want all lead shooting banned, not just hunting.
Incrementalism towards total gun ban.
<sigh>

[popper]

Ex- Gearnasher cast & shot some Bi/Sn bullets and a small deer when testing. Results were good but EXPENSIVE.

[Petander]

Ex- Gearnasher cast & shot some Bi/Sn bullets and a small deer when testing. Results were good but EXPENSIVE.

Good results? Good to know.

Just imagine what bismuth price will become if there are big lead bans coming...

[Petander]

Well I found old bismuth shotshells so...

https://i.postimg.cc/CK5vNp4Z/IMG-20200110-135939-369.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/fTZQvkSJ/IMG-20200110-135832-012.jpg

Everything was too hot at first. But I made some bullets,now to try how they coat.

[Petander]

Hi Tek is bonding fine,these are sized after coating.

My added tin was too much,lowering alloy melting point far under 400°F. Too close to coating cure temp.

But I made a bunch, watching temps carefully - and will shoot them tomorrow. Next try will be with straight shot alloy.

I had no expectations for the coating to work because it's designed for lead alloys. Hi Tek working with bismuth is very good news.

https://i.postimg.cc/9FZS122K/IMG-20200111-020906-406.jpg

[kevin c]

Petander, you have a Harley? How much did it take to get that beast to Finland?

Sorry for the drift.

[fcvan]

I’m starting to think swaged bullets with a tin core may be our future or lathe turned copper. I’m also thinking a small lathe may be in my future. Make a tool jig to recreate the boolit um Bullet (ptui) in order to hunt.

I’m going to keep watching this thread

[Petander]

Petander, you have a Harley? How much did it take to get that beast to Finland?

Sorry for the drift.

Haha,no problem.

Yes I have a -99 Road King. Lots of motorbikes in Finland so there has been importing business forever. I also ride Honda Africa Twin,the old model from 90's again. I used to ride crazy plastic missiles,can't do that in public traffic anymore. And I'm 56... Riding keeps me healthy and sane.

But the topic:

I made half a box of .358 calibrated 145 grain (Lee 158 rf) bullets and loaded them to 38 Special cases with a little help from Quick Load. Approx 1000 fps.

https://i.postimg.cc/mDKtFxqQ/IMG-20200111-155016-474.jpg

Here are my first five fired bismuth bullets ever , I fired at ten meters only,hoping to get them all on paper:

https://i.postimg.cc/zGBMBVmH/IMG-20200111-154920-413.jpg

Considering there's no real instructions for casting,coating or loading bismuth bullets,I'm happy with my results for now.

[405grain]

Years ago I experimented with lead free ammo in anticipation of the California lead bullet ban. The accuracy is astonishingly terrible! The bullets don't obturate, and there is a huge amounts of bore leading after only a few shots are fired. Even if they could be made to work (which I doubt), the terminal ballistics on game would seem to be questionable. There are two additional issues regarding the lead bullet ban that people from other states may be unaware of. First; hunters in the field are required to surrender a round of ammunition to any game warden upon request. This round will be sent to a materials testing laboratory to determine if it contains any lead. Does this violate your 4th amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure? They don't care! If you have any ammunition on your person that contains lead, even if it doesn't fit any of the firearms that you have with you - your guilty of hunting with lead bullets. What's the fine? You loose any firearms that you have in possession, you loose your hunting license, and the fine is MUCH higher than you would pay in any other state. Further, any lead free bullets that you are using must be on a list of approved, tested bullets that is maintained by the department of fish and wildlife. You cannot just cast your own bullets and hunt with them; they must be tested and approved by the state. Why would they do all this to us? Because California snowflakes think that hunting is cruel and guns are evil. My answer is that I have two special hunting areas: Oregon and Nevada.

[Alferd Packer]

Old thread I came across.
Question: Is there increased wear on gun barrels from this mixture?