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T-Bird
11-03-2008, 09:02 AM
I am probably the only redneck in Ala. that has never killed a deer with a 30-30 and I'm 54yrs old. I've killed alot of deer with other cals.I am determined to accomplish this this year and do it with a cast bullet. I have Ly31141 have been working on loads for about a month. The best performer has been 21 gr 4198 crony'd at @1800fps out of my Marlin336CB.My alloy is ww+2% and my shots are not likely to be more than 75-80 yds. Assuming I put it where it needs to be is this enough "mustard" or should I try for a load closer to 2000fps and sacrifice accuracy somewhat? This bullet is so much smaller than the 45-70, 45 colt, and 44 mag bullets that I have been using on deer I want to be sure I hit them hard enough with it. Does anyone have a favorite 30-30 hunting load? Anyone with experience with this bullet in a hunting scenario would be appreciated. Shoot straight T-Bird

C A Plater
11-03-2008, 09:17 AM
My current favorite cast .30-30 load is 32.0 grains of H322 under a 150 grain flat point gas check. Chronograph data show this one at 2000 fps from my 16" barrel Contender carbine which will be my tree stand gun this season. I expect maybe another 100-150 fps out of a 20" barrel of my Winchester 94.

Boerrancher
11-03-2008, 09:29 AM
T-Bird,

The only concern that I would have would be that possibly the WW alloy may be too hard. I am shooting a 50/50 pure/ww mix. My load with my 150 gr or 174 gr cast is 30 gr of IMR4064. According to the book velocities are around 2300 fps with the 150 gr and 2100 fps with the 174gr. My boolits are soft enough that if one rolls off the bench on to the floor while I am loading, I have to toss it. They are very, very soft, and I have no leading problems.

If you are worried about velocity, I shoot 1700 fps out of my 30-06, and it does well. I have a friend of mine that hunts with a 30-30 and he only runs a velocity of 1700 fps and has killed lots of deer. The difference between what he is doing and you are wanting to do is the alloy. His alloy is pure lead with 2% tin added for fill out.

Just remember, is that if you punch a hole through both lungs, and can break the front leg on the opposite side you are shooting, you could be using a FMJ, and your deer will be laying just a few yards from where you shot it.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

missionary5155
11-03-2008, 09:34 AM
If ya du-et wit Black Powder den ya ken always stil hold ya hed high cuz ya dun it da ol way.

IcerUSA
11-03-2008, 09:34 AM
I'd say your good to go at that distance with a load that shoots good , just remember shot placement is of the utmost importance .
If you get the shot and it a good one you will still have to let it go lay down and wait 10 - 15 mins and it should be within 50 yards or so , they don't even have to have a heart left to go that far . :)

Keith

DLCTEX
11-03-2008, 09:42 AM
Millions of deer have been killed with that and lesser loads, but a little softer may be better. I am hunting with a similar boolit (Lee 170 gr.) and about the same velocity this year. DALE

T-Bird
11-03-2008, 10:14 AM
If yall think I need to, I'll soften it up a little. I have some 20-1 already mixed up that I make the 45-70 goulds out of. I'll try that @1800. I was kinda thinking that ww+2% was "soft" to try to run at this velocity. It should be softer that Lyman#2.Hey Dale, what alloy are you using? Shoot straight, T-Bird

Pawpaw
11-03-2008, 11:00 AM
I like the 311041 bullet too, and I push mine about 1850 fps. Mine are cast of straight wheelweight metal, lubed in LLA, sized through a 0.309 Lee sizer to seat the gas check, lubed again in LLA, then seated over 27 grains of IMR 4895 with either a CCI or Winchester primer.

That's what I'll be carrying tomorrow morning when I go check on the deer in the thickets.

Larry Gibson
11-03-2008, 12:37 PM
T-bird

That load would kill deer within the ranges you are talking about if you put the bullet where it needs to go as mentioned. However, you can get better performance from that cast bullet and cartridge so why settle for less. I'd also go with the 50/50 mix of WWs/lead and size "as is" (my 311041HP drops them at .311). Seat the GC using a push through Lee sizer of as cast diameter and lube. I use Javelina lube but other lubes work as well. I load mine over 31 gr of H4895 with a 3/4 gr dacron filler. This gives 2050 fps out of my 20" M94 and 2160 out of my 24" M94. With this velocity and soft bullet best accuracy comes with the first 5 shots out of the clean cold barrels. I clean the barrels after each 5 shots. Further shots without cleaning will cause a slight build up of flash leading toward the muzzle. This cleans out with normal cleaning but accuracy at 100 yards goes from 2-2.5" for the first 5 shots to 4-5" for an additional 5 shots. If I've not got the deer in 5 shots it's time to go back to camp anyways and ponder where I (not the rifle or load) went wrong. I can clean the barrel while pondering. This soft alloy and velocity gives excellent expansion and terminal ballistics across the spectrum of the 30-30's range.

Let me also mention the "behind the shoulder shot". This seems to be a favorite shot of most deer hunters. I have not used that shot for quite a few years and here is why; on most broadside shots athat shot almost always only punctures both lungs. A deer can run a long ways just being lung shot. I've seen it too many times and read too many posts regarding how far deer have run with this shot. This is especially the case with slower moving cast bullets that do not expand well. The other problem with the behind the shoulder shot is; what if the deer doesn't present a broadside shot? If you've ever lost a deer that you shot you will know the heartache and want to use a more effective shot. Yes I know many hunters that have used that shot for years without losing a deer. But it only has to happen once. At least that's all it took for me.

The shot I have used for years without fail is to envision a soccor ball sitting low between the front legs up against the brisket. This is where the heart lies along with the major portion of the lungs. The major arteries and veins are also concentrated there. A shot through that soccor ball, regardless of the angle, will put the deer (elk, caribou, bison, antelope, etc. or African plains game) down in very short order. The plus is on 90% of the shots the bullet will usually break at least one leg going in or out. The 311041 cast and loaded as I've mentioned is an absolute sure fire killer with this shot. I've not had any deer go more than afew yards when shot as such.

Good luck hunting.

Larry Gibson

crowbeaner
11-03-2008, 12:42 PM
I'd try 30 grains of WW748 with the 31141 in the thutty-thutty. You can up that a couple if needed. I sized mine to .309 and they shot one hole groups at 50 yards in a Winchester M94 SRC with a 20" barrel I had. I used Hornady gaschecks.

T-Bird
11-03-2008, 01:42 PM
Larry, my and my friends experience with behind the shoulder shots mimics yours. I've seen more than 1 deer over the years take off running like their a$$ was on fire with a heart shot.I had a doe, heart shot with a muzzelloader, run 150yds at top speed (luckily across a large green field so I was able to see her) turn a flip and fall stone dead. Most of the time, the places I hunt you can't see that far, and if there isn't a good blood trail, you will loose the deer. It is amazing how far a deer can travel in 30 secs and how poor a blood trail can be if the deer is running at full tilt!! I tend to shoot for the shoulder area sort of where you are talking about. If you can pass a bullet through there, many times you will also be close enough to the spine, where it passes behind the shoulder, to shock them down and they drop in their tracks- a good thing when shot at dusk. I just cast some 20-1 alloy and they sure are shiiiiney! I'm going to load them and see how they shoot.I did plan to clean every several shots. Shoot straight T-Bird

Larry Gibson
11-03-2008, 03:16 PM
T-bird

Looks like we're singing off the same page of the hymn book here. That 20-1 alloy is a good one although it might be a tad too soft. I use a 1-16 tin-lead alloy up through 1800-1900 fps and expansion is awesome. Please let us know how and with what loads the 1-20 alloy does? Thanks.

Larry Gibson

Leadforbrains
11-03-2008, 07:35 PM
Hey TBird. I have a 94 in .32 Win special. I know it is not a 30/30, but I think it is similar. I followed the advice Boerrancher gave and went with 50/50 WW to pure lead. I added enough tin for good fill out and water quenched them. I killed a doe at about 70 yards using the iron sights. I broke one shoulder and the bullet went completely through the deer. There had to be expansion because the exit wound in the opposite side of the ribcage was pretty big. First deer I ever killed with a cast bullet, and it felt like it was my first deer all over again. I wish you luck. Please post your results so I to can learn from them as well.

DLCTEX
11-03-2008, 08:23 PM
T Bird: My hunting boolit is 50/50, WW/lead. They expanded well shooting a plastic jug of water at 50 yds. I'm using 25 gr. Reloader 7. I got hit with a stomach bug this weekend, so didn't get to take a deer yet. I will resolve that in a day or two. DALE

MT Gianni
11-03-2008, 11:40 PM
Larry, while I have seen heart shot animals run a long ways the Whitetail I shot last Wed. with j-word bullets was hit @ 275 steps with a 150 gr Hornady fp from a 308 @2700 fps starting velocity. It broke a rib going in and one going out punching through both lungs while missing the heart and liver. He took 2 steps and lay down, his head was on the ground 5 seconds later. Neither shoulders nor spine were close enough to the bullet path to have a shock impact. Nephew hit his in the paunch and the bullet blew up there, 270 300 fps130 gr Ballistic tip. His 2nd shot went through the brisket below the heart and put him down. He had a minor jam and the deer ran 125 yards through an open field. I suspect hydrostatic shock disrupted the heart and added stress too. His went down and had its head on the ground in 2-3 minutes. Gianni

JesterGrin_1
11-04-2008, 12:20 AM
Do not feel bad MT Gianni. On Nov 1st I shot a Deer out about 140 yards with my Marlin 1895 in 45-70 with a RD 350Gr BOOLIT going a little over 1800FPS. And it went in through one rib and then through the lungs and out another rib.And turned one lung to jello. I was just a tad high to hit the Heart. That doe still went 150 yards. .45 hole going in and a silver dollar hole going out.

To say I was amazed is an understatement.

jimkim
11-04-2008, 12:39 AM
I like 30gr of IMR-4530 under the Lyman 311041. I also like 30gr of Win 748. Thirty grains just seems to work in the 30-30. You can put the bullets in water with just the nose exposed and anneal them with a torch. Just be careful and don't quench them.

Larry Gibson
11-04-2008, 02:23 AM
Mt Gianni

Yup, I've seen drop over dead from that shot and I've seen 'em run a long ways. Just can't be sure about it. That's why I switched to the heart/lung shot. Never seen one go far at all with that shot. The nepew's shot "below the heart" was only a lung shot and also missed all the arteries and viens plus it was already pumped after the first shot. (that must have been fun cleaning that one) I'm not saying a lung shot deer isn't going to die. Just saying that a heart/lung shot deer most often don't go far if any. All bets are off on a gut shot critter. I've seen them then absorb good shots that would have put them right down if the good shot would have been the first shot. I think there is an abject lesson there somewhere. Always a pleasure to swap huntin' stories about what we've seen animals do.

Larry Gibson

T-Bird
11-04-2008, 10:12 AM
went to the range yesterday, loaded 5 rnds. of 1-20 over 21gr IMR 4198. Set up at 50 yds. 1st shot (clean cold bbl) went 2" high. Next 4 into 1 inch in bullseye. Leading was minimal. I cleaned, and intend to repeat this today.Now yall got me worried my bullets are too soft. Shoot Straight, T-Bird

JIMinPHX
11-04-2008, 12:43 PM
Last July I settled on a charge of 28-grains of Rx 7 under a 150-grain GCFP. It gave me a little over 2300fps average, which is kicking right along for a 30-30. Unfortunately, at a hardness of 12-bnh, I saw very little expansion, so a big meplat or a very blunt point are going to be helpful here(Think Lyman #311440). I have not tried softer alloys or a soft nosed composite lead/alloy boolit yet. they may give better terminal performance in soft tissue.

I had a hard time believing that the 30-30 could give me 2300fps with cast boolits, but that load is sanctioned by the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (pg 179), so it should be safe.

leadeye
11-04-2008, 12:53 PM
I'm with Larry on shot placement, breaking one or both shoulders on the way in or out of teh chest cavity has always worked for me. Never had to track a deer more than 10 yards. I lose some meat out of the shoulder but that is better than none at all if you lose the animal. All of my shots have been in scrub forest at 100 yards or less. I usually hear them before I see them. Good luck this year.

Larry Gibson
11-04-2008, 01:39 PM
T-bird

if that load is pushing 1800+ fps with a 1-20 alloy bullet it will do just fine. Not too soft at all! If the first shots out of the clean barrel always go 2" high try shooting a fouler then wait 30 minutes or so and shoot the next 4 to see how they group with a cold fouled barrel. Sounds like your'e getting there.

Larry Gibson

T-Bird
11-05-2008, 11:03 AM
back to the range again yesterday with the 20-1.3shots @50yds 3/4in group in the bull. No 1st shot flier this time, but I really didn't brush the bbl alot after the 1st 5 shot group. There may have been some fouling left. I will clean well before today's trip.I really am surprised that you can shoot bullets this soft this fast- accurately.Shoot straight T-Bird

T-Bird
11-07-2008, 09:12 AM
Went to the range yesterday, did not clean my bbl from 6 shots the day before.Shot 4 shots. the point of impact was about an inch higher than from the previous day, but they grouped around 1in (at 50yds).I don't if my scope "wanders" a little or the increased fouling in the bbl simply changed the impact point. I view it as of minimal importance. I did chrony this load again (the previous figure of 1800fps was established several years ago possibly from another gun) and it is more in the 1880 -1890fps range. I think I'm good to go. Thanks for yall's help. Shoot straight, T-Bird

Larry Gibson
11-07-2008, 12:55 PM
Just be aware that with bullets that soft severe leading can happn with just one shot as the bore gets more fouled. Good luck hunting and let us know if you tag a deer with that load.

Larry Gibson

catkiller45
11-07-2008, 01:23 PM
I have shot lots of cast bullets with the wheel weights and lead mix..50-50 that is which is darn close to a 20 to 1 mix of lead and tin..The hardness tester says that anyway...Of course I never use any bullets smaller than a 45 cal....Good luck and please post your results there....

Rodfac
12-07-2008, 10:52 AM
Gotta chime in here guys. I've shot a lot of deer and four elk over the past 40 years and early on used the "hold just behind the shoulder" method. Some dropped where they stood (J bullets in .308, .35 Whelen, and .30-30) and some went a good piece before dropping. Lost only one and that was a 120 lb whitetail doe with the .35. Tough deer that one. But here's the point...a lot of those deer took one more step as I squeezed, and yup, the bullet struck farther back than I wanted. Not in the paunch but farther back than the 'armpit' area. As a result, I hold and shoot for the shoulder. Deer/ Elk NEVER back up. This hold gives you a margin for error and still get a good hit. I like full penetration and the double blood trail it leaves, but seldom need it. I take reasonable shots, never at running animals, tho walking is ok if you use the 'shoulder' hold. Example... an elk at 250 yds, in a slow trot requires a foot of lead to hit where you want the bullet to go....35 Whelen at 2500 fs muzzle velocity. It was a supported shot with a known accurate load. Point is that animals move farther than you'd think and you gotta lead 'em. The shoulder, or front edge of the shoulder hold will do that for you. JMHO Rodfac

DLCTEX
12-07-2008, 11:52 AM
I did take a doe with my cast 30-30 load (Lee 170 F 50/50 ww/lead over 25gr R-7). 80 yds. through both lungs and exited. DALE

Beaverhunter2
01-06-2009, 12:41 AM
Wow! There's lots of good info here! But I have to admit, you guys have me going in circles. :confused: I was leaning toward the Lee 113gr for varmints and the Lee 170gr for a deer load through my .30-30/12 ga. 24F. I was also considering the Lyman 311041.

Now I think I'll split the dfference and wait for Ranchdog to restock his 165gr for the deer boolit. :lol: I've been very happy with the 350gr and 420gr .460s in my 1895M and I'm sure the .30 cal boolit wll be just as accurate.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge!

John

T-Bird
01-06-2009, 08:51 AM
I still haven't fired a shot at a deer this season. our season goes out the end of Jan.this time of year I'm usually in "kill mode" so hopefully I will have a report for yall soon. I'm using 311041 !/20 alloy at 1880 fps. It cloverleafs at 50 yds. Shoot straight, T-Bird

Throwback
01-08-2009, 10:11 PM
Most of you are using softer bullets than I am. I am not especially fussy with my alloy. I use 9 to 1 WW to Linotype with backstop material thrown in and one eye of newt. This is in the neighborhood of 14-15 BHN. My SAECO tester does not correlate exactly. In .30 caliber I load for .30-06 and .30-40 Krag as well as the .30-30. I run 1,600 FPS for my target loads and 2,000 FPS for hunting. Faster than 2,100 fps and you get excessive fragmentation. I get no appreciable leading at the lower velocities and cleanup is not difficult with the hunting loads, even when shooting quite a few rounds. Accuracy at 2,000 fps is not bad with the best loads and it is easiest to achieve with the smaller case of the .30-30.

For hunting I use the heaviest bullet I can drive to 2,000 FPS. I shot my last deer with the Lyman 311284-214 grains. The first shot hit just behind his leg and exited the far side leaving a 2-inch exit hole. The second shot took him between the shoulders as he ran towards me. Neither bullet was recovered. Internal damage indicated good expansion.

In the .30-30 it is no great trick to reach 2,000 FPS using the Lyman 31141-175 grains. 30 grains of H335 delivers 2,005 fps in my 94 carbine (20-inch barrel). This is a good bullet for hunting with the .30-30. This picture shows 31141 shot from a Husqvarna .30-06 at 2,000 fps instrumental velocity into wet phone books (a somewhat harder medium than deer flesh).

I have recently begun experimenting with .375 Winchester cases and the 311284. These cases are much stronger than .30-30 cases and it is a relatively simple matter to anneal them and resize them. The 214 grain bullet must be single loaded in the model 94 but it is an interesting prospect for a first load. I also have my eye on a really neat stalking rifle in the .30-30’s metric equivalent. This should be an excellent candidate for the heavy bullet. Does anyone else have experience with heavy bullets in the .30-30?

My first load was 22 grains of H335, which delivered 1,500 fps in the model 94. I miked the fired cases and expansion indicates that this load is sane. I am hopeful that it will be possible to at least hit 1,800 fps with this powder or a slower burning one.