Cast 9MM keyholing

[ivanfern]

Hello
I am casting 124gn round nose bullets with my lee 2 cavity mold. I have only shot these rounds for fun into a berm without noticing how they were flying. Today I placed a ipsc target and used 3 9MM pistols to shoot these bullets. I am using cast lead 124gn bullets which are powder coated for 20mins. Once they are out of the oven I will resize them down to 0.356. I have verified that they are coming out to this diameter and not smaller. As for powder charge I am using Hodgdon Titegroup because I can purchase this powder for about $10 dollars a lb and I've had great luck in that past with FMJ. The load for this powder states 3.5 to 4.1 grains for 124gn fmj bullet. I cannot find a load specifically for cast lead so I chose to use the median of the charge. I chose to load them with 3.8 and they cycle perfectly. For every 10 rounds I maybe get 2 that fly straight into the paper. The rest of the magazine leave a sideways hole in the paper. I tried a glock 19, a cz P09, and a smith and Wesson shield and they all could not stabilize this bullet. I do not know if I need to push them faster or slower but I want them to fly straight. All the guns cycle them flawlessly and I load the rounds to an OAL of 1.109. My barrels do not show any signs of obvious leading. I do crimp the bullets to seal the top of the case. If anyone has any info it would be great. I will attach photos below

[Springfield]

Try more powder first, as slower rarely makes keyholing go away. And/or try larger bullets. I run relatively soft cast in my nines(BHP and Tanfoglio's) and run .358.

[John McCorkle]

Hit them with more powder and slug your barrel to see what size to size down to.

Most of my 9s take 357 and one takes 358

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[marek313]

As others pointed out .356 is small for cast and usually people have better luck with .357-.358 but that depends on your gun. If your gun wont chamber anything larger then .356 you have to either get your throat reamed or i would first try increasing charge. Sometimes that little bit of extra powder gives it a better kick and makes it obtrude properly where they wont keyhole anymore.
Also TG is ok but not the best for cast as it burns really hot. I would try other powders to. I dont find TG accurate with cast in my 9s. I like powders with little bit slower burn rate for cast 9s.

[ivanfern]

Just slugged the barrel on my glock19 and it still holding 0.356, I may bump the charge to 4. and 4.1 and see what the results are

[Driver man]

Boolits are too small. My glock cz etc need 357 or 358 . 356 keyhole just like yours. Try shooting some without sizing them.

[John McCorkle]

Just slugged the barrel on my glock19 and it still holding 0.356, I may bump the charge to 4. and 4.1 and see what the results areSo your barrel slugged at 356 or did it slug at 355?

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[upnorthwis]

I'm powder coating that same bullet and don't size at all. I also had to use a larger expander to keep the brass from sizing the bullet too small. Before the larger expander, I pulled a bullet and it was somewhere around .353.

[DougGuy]

Yep, whether the boolits aren't large enough when loaded, or the crimp die is sizing them down once in the case, bottom line is that they aren't large enough when they get in the barrel. Most folks that I throat barrels for size to .358" and this works very well for them.

[ivanfern]

Barrel slugged at 356, going to load them without resizing them down and bump the charge up, I feel like they are a little soft shooting especially threw my cz

[ivanfern]

also going to lay off some of the crimp. I was crimping a bit to hard to the point where the case was almost flush with the lead

[John McCorkle]

Barrel slugged at 356, going to load them without resizing them down and bump the charge up, I feel like they are a little soft shooting especially threw my czOh yeah I think that'll help then, getting it one thou over at least....and pull a bullet from a loaded round once you lighten off the crimp too...this will help make sure you are not over crimping too.

9mm took me a minute to get right with cast. It's small case capacity, tight tolerances, higher pressure, varied barrel specs from one maker to the next and the need to cycle the action and stay under certain length for mag loading....all sort of make it more complex and any of those plus the routine factors in cast loading such as alloy, bnh, etc.

Out of all the casting I've done, 9mm took me the longest to get right

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[Buck Butcher]

Doug Guy and John McCorkle are on to it. I’d echo exactly what they say with the addition of using the Lee powder through expander in 38 S&W. It expands a little deeper and fatter.

Hold off on upping the charge. It already cycles.

9 is frustrating, even more so with tight chambers and loose bores. You’ll get it if you keep after it.

B B

[Hick]

I've been working this exact same problem with my P1 and P38. 124 grain sized 0.356 loaded with 3.8 grains of Titegroup. I have been seeing keyholing also. Today I loaded a set as-cast and lubed-- 0.357, instead of 0.356. Here's the interesting part. Loaded at 0.357, I had 6 out of 50 keyhole, and all 6 were fired from military brass. The ones fired from commercial brass were all OK. By the way, I checked that 3.8 grain Titegroup load (which runs about 1000 fps in my P 38) using an on-line stability calculator and it should be waaay stable-- not even close, so I don't think velocity is the issue. Size and/or brass looks to be the problem (at least in my two guns).

[John McCorkle]

I've been working this exact same problem with my P1 and P38. 124 grain sized 0.356 loaded with 3.8 grains of Titegroup. I have been seeing keyholing also. Today I loaded a set as-cast and lubed-- 0.357, instead of 0.356. Here's the interesting part. Loaded at 0.357, I had 6 out of 50 keyhole, and all 6 were fired from military brass. The ones fired from commercial brass were all OK. By the way, I checked that 3.8 grain Titegroup load (which runs about 1000 fps in my P 38) using an on-line stability calculator and it should be waaay stable-- not even close, so I don't think velocity is the issue. Size and/or brass looks to be the problem (at least in my two guns).I'd mic the thickness of that military brass vs your commercial...2 things could be playing into it...if the case capacity is different by alot you'll see pretty significant pressure and velocity differences especially in a small case capacity like 9mm...also I wonder if that military brass isn't thicker and sizing down that bullet with the same crimp you give your commercial brass....it may work fine for your commercial brass but if your military stuff is thicker I'll be sizing you down just enough to mess you up......and then also give you different pressure and velocity because the capacity is less....

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[JBinMN]

It has been touched on here, more than once. One thing to make sure of is that you are making the cases expand to larger than the factory size expander to deal with cast boolits.
Factory dies expander plugs are set to be used with the jacketed bullets that most use to reload instead of cast boolits & the expander plugs are sized in relation to the firearms bbl.

In the case of a 9mm Luger (9mm parabellum/9x19), that is usually .355, or sometimes .356. When we use cast boolits we prefer to go .001 or even more, over that amount to help the boolit seal the bore when fires. So, .356, .357 or even sometimes a bit more is the goal for cast boolit diameter.

Since most factory expander plugs are set to expand to .356 to aid in "bullet" seating and when the boolit is crimped it squeezes the brass to fit to the bullet.

If one uses the factory expander & plug for a cast boolit with a diameter of .356, .357 or even larger, a couple or both the following will likely happen.

1) the cast boolit will get "shaved" down smaller that its original diameter if the "bell" of the expanded case is too small,

and/or

2) the cast boolit will get "swaged" down in diameter when seated into the case, or it will get swaged when the final crimp is made if it is too much of a crimp.

The result of both is that the boolit is now undersized from the intended size of .001+ to help the boolit seal the bbl when it is fired since the lead alloy boolit is soft & the brass & subsequent crimping can further reduce the diameter.

So, instead of having a cast boolit that is still .001+ when fired, it has taken on the diameter of the brass inside dimension & is no longer that desired .001+ that was intended.

The problem can result in leading in bbl. near the chamber & streaking towards the muzzle, as well as a loss in accuracy after the cast boolit leaves the bbl.

A jacketed bullet will not usually swage down by the brass upon being seated nor by the crimping & thus does not give the same effect as the softer cast boolit will produce.

Solution is to use a larger expander plug that is bigger than the intended size of the cast boolit for the bbl of whatever firearm one is using & in this case the 9mm. As well, one needs to only use the "taper crimp" setting to the minimum "tightness" of crimp to hold the cast boolit from moving before it is fired. While there is not the same situation with a revolver where there can be "bullet/boolit setback", there is still the chance for "set back" into the case thru recoil as the round is chambered or even possibly in the magazine f the crimp is too lose to hold the cast boolit in place.

One of the best ways to check for this prevention of set back, but not so tight a crimp as to deform the diameter of the cast boolit is to set the crimp to the lightest one can use, then testing the boolits "hold" by measuring the OAL of the round first to make sure it is correct, then pushing the boolit into the edge of the reloading bench & then re-checking the OAL to see if the boolit moved into the case at all( "set back").

If it moved then the crimp needs to be tightened up a bit more until the cast boolit will not move when pushed against the bench & the OAL remains the same as what it was set at after removal from the crimp die.


So, in order to prevent the shaving or swaging issue, one needs to use a die & larger expander plug that will allow for the cast lead boolit to be seated & crimped to the .001+ larger size.

The crimping can still effect the cast boolit even if the expander plug is larger than a factory one if the crimp is set too tight, but the first step is to make sure that the cast boolit is not being shaved or swaged when it is seated after expanding the case.

Then the crimping check as described previously can be used to set the crimp.

I suggest setting the larger exp die first, then seat a cast boolit & then pull it & chack for any swaging or shaving and that the boolit is the same size diameter as it was before seating.

Then if it passed that test, then the next step is to work on setting the crimp as described previously & do the testing for "set back" to make sure that the round stays seated & crimped without swaging it smaller in diameter.

If the round is expanded properly to maintain the diameter of the cast boolit as intended & the crimping is not swagin the cast boolit, then the problem should be resolved.

If one still has a "fit" issue as shown by key holing, & leading by the chamber, then one may want to enlarge the cast boolit diameter even more as the bbl may be bigger in diameter than the .001+ that was used. Another factor can be the alloy BHN( hardness) where the boolit is too hard & is not obturating(<sealing the bbl) to the grooves of the bbl completely & that too will make for leading near the chamber & streaking down the bbl, as well as poorer accuracy.

Now, I realize that some who read this already know what I am trying to share, but I am posting this even though it has been explained by others before this & many times IIRC.

Sometimes it takes going back to some of the basics to get a handle on what one issue is being caused by.

Sometimes it is more than one step causing the issue, so it is best to just work oneself thru the steps, one step at a time & eliminate the variables that can cause the issue(s).

So, if someone reads this & already knows. So be it.

If not, then please give it some thought to try the suggestions & se if it helps you with the issues you are having.

There is more that can be addressed, but I think I typed enough now.
;)

G'Luck!

P.S. - I had to work thru this with several of my pistols ( .380 & 9mm) and finally got it figured out. I hope that everyone else has the same success I did in solving the issues as they happened.
;)

[GhostHawk]

You got a lot of great advice above, I don't disagree with any of it.

Many of us have been down this road, I had it happen on both a 9mm pistol and a barrel for a H&R Handi Rifle.

Your in good company, enjoy the journey!

[Sig556r]

Kinda tricky when you got no obvious barrel leading (sign of good bullet fit) & cycles the action (enough powder charge). Try a slower-burning powder first (see link below) before changing your sizing/seating methods. TG can be finicky fast at times, it leads my suppressor but not my barrels in subsonic applications. Good luck.
http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/cast-bullet-data-lookup

[Conditor22]

slug the barrels. mine range from .355 to .3585 and go 1 to 2 thou over that diameter

neck expanders help especially with softer alloy I use NOE and had a member make some custom size expanders. IF you use 15 BHN a Lee powder through die should work.

pull a boolit with a hammer type puller and measure the diameter

I use a Lee FCD and crimp only to the point that when the loaded boolit is pushed against my bench the boolit doesn't move.

remember the 9MM is a tapered case.

[mdi]

When trouble shooting a gun problem, change one thing at a time. I'd suggest larger diameter bullet first. If your barrel slugs at .356" I'd suggest a .358" bullet. I cast for 3, 9mm pistols and two slug out to .356". With these two a .358" bullet, either nekkid lead or PCed, works great. For the other pistol, a Tokerev, the barrel runs about .357"-.358" and if I cast some bullets that run .359" or so I'll use them, otherwise this gun just gets jacketed bullets. Higher pressure may bump up the bullets and help, but for my guns I often use light loads with good fitting bullets and get excellent results...

[Burnt Fingers]

I knew before I opened this post what 9mm bullet would be discussed.

That particular bullet is known for keyholing.

Try a different mold.

[fredj338]

It is either over crimping, reducing the actual dia, or it is the TL design. I bet over crimping. Load up a bullet, pull it & measure it. If they are undersized, they will keyhole. All I shoot is cast out of all my 9mm, from Glock OEM bbls to 1911 match. I size 0.356" or 0.357" depending on which guns, but mostly 0.356" works fine with moderately hard alloy.

[JBinMN]

ivanfern,

I keep reading about folks thinking it is the design of the Lee 124gr. 2R TL.

Apparently some folks do not have the patience it takes to investigate issues & solve them on their own...
I am not like that. I prefer to solve the issues when I can, and off times I learn from doing it, so I have a bit of a different perspective, I reckon. I am not much for "quitting" or throwing things away because of what might be my own mistakes/errors because I missed something & not be so quick to blame something else for not working the way I expected...

Regardless, I do not have any problems using it with my SR9 after doing some of things mentioned about making sure the boolit diameter is not getting swaged down either by under expanding the case before seating, over crimping, boolit alloy is in the correct range for the velocity & the fit to the BBl is done properly.

And that is all with 45/45/10 tumble lube & not PC.

If one takes the time to check each of those things, regardless of lube/PC, one can trace the issue(s) & solve them.

Next, if those other checks show no change in boolit diameter, then a possibility is that the boolit is not being pushed fast enough, the boolit is getting put off balance as it leaves the muzzle due to a issue with the crown, or even gas cutting of the alloy so that one place in the boolit is getting cut while another is not & undoing the balance of the boolit as it leaves the muzzle. One more possibly thing, but not usually a likely factor could be unseen voids inside the boolit itself, but not so likely as some of the others mentioned, due to it being pistol & at what seems to be relatively short distances.

It is going to be a matter of doing some investigation & if you are accurate in measuring & careful how you do check things, you can simply eliminate possibilities.

If you take the time to do these things yourself until you are satisfied you have eliminated all of the things mentioned, then it is time to consider perhaps having someone do some work to the chamber/leade, etc. or "then" consider that the mold & its' boolits are the issue.

I find it a bit disappointing that so many suggest you scrap the mold, when you can do a bit of checking before that option.

But, do as ya like...

I will offer that if you decide you want to get rid of the mold, give me a PM & perhaps I will take it off your hands for a reasonably negotiated price.
;)

G'Luck in whatever you decide to do. Fix things, & learn by the doing of it while making it work for you, or just give up & get rid of the mold... Your choice.
;)

P.S. - Maybe next time, I will offer my opinion thru PM to folks, instead of thru the open forum, so I don't get the crapola & complaining from other members about not being detailed enough, or offering too much detail, like has happened before... Now I know why some do offer suggestions thru PM rather than open forum. It defeats the learning for others, but it eliminates most of the crapola & complaining.

[tazman]

If a particular boolit design needs to have everything perfect all the time in order to work properly, why not go to a different design that has proven to work in many different guns without all the hassle and experimenting?
Some folks want results and don't enjoy the troubleshooting. That is why so many just load with jacketed or plated.

[toallmy]

There is a very informative wright up on loading cast boolits for the 9mm that may be helpful .
It is in the Forum - Classics & Stickies / the sticky is titled ( Setting up for boolits in a new 9mm ) .

[JBinMN]

There is a very informative wright up on loading cast boolits for the 9mm that may be helpful .
It is in the Forum - Classics & Stickies / the sticky is titled ( Setting up for boolits in a new 9mm ) .

Great suggestion!
:)

Here is the direct link to that Sticky, for ease of getting there for anyone that is interested:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

[David2011]

Over crimping has already been discussed; here’s a little more. Your reloading manuals will show a mouth/neck O.D. which should be 0.380”. With commercial brass that should be the target crimp size. Over crimping not only reduces the boolit diameter, it can also affect the ability of the cartridge to headspace on the mouth. I measure the OD just a hair behind the mouth so I’m not measuring a burr on the mouth.

[mdi]

Personally I don't believe there are many "intrinsically inaccurate bullets prone to tumbling". While I don't have that exact same mold, I believe that if one uses a decent alloy (not "hard" cast), fits the bullet to the gun and uses a good lube, the bullets will shoot quite well. I only reload for 3, 9mm pistols and the old saw comes into play; "each gun has it's own personality". I settled on another Lee mold for my 9mms, the 125 gr RNFP that shoots great in my Ruger LC9, and good in my FMK, but so-so in my Tokerev (also works in my 38 Specials). I don't have that same mold but IIRC I have a very similar mold ,a TL 356-124, that only took finding a good diameter to shoot accurately in my Ruger (didn't try it in my FMK). My tumble lube bullets get 45-45-10, and often pan lubed with C-Red or Speed Green. Personally I thing the main problem many molds/bullets is the guy holding the handles...

Jes an old guy's .02...

[Rich/WIS]

I used that bullet unsized and tumble lubed in my CZ 75 and had keyholing issues. Switched to their TC shape with normal lube groove and sized and lubed at .358 in a Lyman 450 and problem went away. Have read that Glock rifling and cast are not a good combination, but nor sure of the truth of that assertion. Only Glock I loaded for had an aftermarket barrel and it shot the TC bullet fine.

[mto7464]

just went out shooting the same boolit. (PC'ed sized .3575) Several keyholed. I noticed this before but had this loaded up already so I have to use them up. I cast some more and PC'ed them and loaded as they were and tested them for fit in my case guage. THey Shoot much better. I also ordered a new expander from lathesmith that should take care of the case swaging them down.

[ivanfern]

So I loaded some rounds using 41 and 42 grains of powder, light crimp and still getting keyholes, almost all of them. I will bump down the charge to 3.6 and see if that makes a difference. I did not size down these bullies after I coated them so I am thinking maybe I can do a second powder coat to get them a bit thickets.

[flyingmonkey35]

Post deleted

[Buck Butcher]

Pull a bullet.

[mto7464]

Pull a bullet.

that is what I did and it was swagged badly. I bet that is whats happening here.

[gwpercle]

So I loaded some rounds using 41 and 42 grains of powder, light crimp and still getting keyholes, almost all of them. I will bump down the charge to 3.6 and see if that makes a difference. I did not size down these bullies after I coated them so I am thinking maybe I can do a second powder coat to get them a bit thickets.

Cast boolits in 9mm Luger is a nightmare on Elm Street , the boolit you have selected is hard to get to work right .
I've been down this road and even with 50 years experience almost gave up getting all the bugs out .
If you decide there must be an easier boolit to work with , here are the two that solved all my problems and made things work.
I lube with conventional Lithi-Bee lubricant not powder coated .

1.) Lee 2 cavity 356-120-TC proved that this design was better than the tumble lube design and the truncated cone fed just fine in all four 9mm's I have . I wanted to try a larger diameter boolit with a gas check

2.) To make it better a gas checked design would be just the ticket. Makes seating easier can shoot them 1000+fps with no leading. Purchased NOE 358-124-TC-GC sized to .357 or .358 (depending on pistols throat) and bingo.....problems were solved . Accurate , no keyholes and no leading .
The gas check protects the base during boolit seating.
Find a powder charge you and the pistol like and Success !!!

The NOE 358-124-TC-GC when sized .358 is a hum dinger in 38 special and 357 magnum loads...you can get some decent magnum loads with the gas check boolit and it is very accurate .

This is my hardway learned experiences , hope it helps you,
Gary

[BamaNapper]

I must be doing something wrong. I use the same mold, same powder and charge, and a ton of different types of brass. I cast whatever WW I can get my hands on, so I'm sure some batches end up softer than others. I probably even have the same sizing die. I use Hornady dies and I'm sure they've been adjusted a few times so the crimp would tend to vary somewhat, especially with all different headstamps. The only difference I'm seeing is the color of the PC (the wife is fond of the red ones). I have 3 9mm's (Ruger SR9, SIG P365, and the wife's P229), and have given hundreds to a friend (a Glock). Between the wife and I, we've probably loaded and shot close to 10,000 of them in the last 3 years. Wow, I just realized how much time I've spent with that 2-cavity mold in my hand. I shoot mostly paper targets and don't recall ever seeing a keyhole, and I never got a report of one out of the Glock. The bullets I have dug out of the berm showed good rifling, so I'm not thinking the .356 is too small, but I haven't dug one out from the 365 yet.

Now I have to say that my first mold was defective. The sprue plate was not completely square/flat and didn't seem to seal as well as it should to the mold block. The molds worked, but there was a definite flaw in that the back of the bullet was not measurably off-square with the sides, and there was a small flashing of lead around the base that would have cleaned up if I had sized them. New mold, problem fixed. It seems to me that if the base of the bullet wasn't square you'd be inducing the keyhole result as the bullet exits the barrel. I never shot that mold so I can't say what it would have done.

[JBinMN]

My offer to buy( 3x now I think) such a troublesome mold for a reasonable, but discounted price, due to its' troublesome nature, still stands.
;)

[ivanfern]

Hi guys so tomorrow I will cast about 50 bullets, I will check the size without powder coat and then after powder coat. I may do a second powder coat to see if I can get the bullet to .358. I will load some light loads starting at 3.6 then to 3.8. Also will pull a bullet before to see if the brass is sizing down my bullet.

[tazman]

Hi guys so tomorrow I will cast about 50 bullets, I will check the size without powder coat and then after powder coat. I may do a second powder coat to see if I can get the bullet to .358. I will load some light loads starting at 3.6 then to 3.8. Also will pull a bullet before to see if the brass is sizing down my bullet.

During your seating process, if one or more of the cases seem to be hard to seat the boolits into, pull that one to check for sizing.
Not all of your cartridges are tumbling. perhaps just the ones with thicker case walls are causing the issues.

[ivanfern]

Hi guys thanks for the help! It has been driving me nuts because at 50 yards I'm getting a 50ft group haha, so I slugged my barrel and its at .355. The bullets with powder coat are at .357. However I am using a lee expanding die and it is only expanding the case mouth to .353. I pulled some loaded rounds and noticed that the bottom end of the bullet was squeezed down to almost .345. I did not crimp these rounds. The expander die is only expending the case mouth so the case is squeezing my bullets down a bit towards the rear of the bullet which leads me to believe that the bullets is not making full contact to the rifling. I believe that this is my problem and was looking into called LEE to see if they send me a .38 special expander since it expands deeper than the 9mm expander. I also took a look at a expander die set that lee sells because I also want to load cast .45 acp and .44 mag.

[tazman]

That small dimension you found on the base of the boolit will be you problem almost certainly. I hope the new expander takes care of your problem.

[whisler]

I think you will do better with 38 S&W rather than 38 Special expander. At least that is what I had success with.

[toallmy]

I think you will do better with 38 S&W rather than 38 Special expander. At least that is what I had success with.

Definitely the ' 38 Smith & Wesson expander ' not the 38 Special .
I believe you mentioned you are using the lee 9 mm powder through expander die now if so all you need to order is the 38 SMITH & WESSON powder through expander insert to replace the one in the die now .
The part is available at Titan Reloading a vendor sponsor at the top of the page # SE 1699 .

[fredj338]

Hi guys so tomorrow I will cast about 50 bullets, I will check the size without powder coat and then after powder coat. I may do a second powder coat to see if I can get the bullet to .358. I will load some light loads starting at 3.6 then to 3.8. Also will pull a bullet before to see if the brass is sizing down my bullet.
Just curious why you are so intent on using the TL design? It isn't the best for PC, a single groove or no groove bullet will give better results. My time is worth something to me so for the cost of the Lee mold, just move on.

[Victor N TN]

There's a LOT of good information in this thread. First I would size the bullets 0.0015" to 0.002" over size. Then ad just a bit more powder. But read all the rest of the thread first.

[ivanfern]

So I have great news, received my expander plug and it expands a lot deeper into the 9mm case and it leaves the inside of the case at .355 to .358. I seated a cast bullet and pulled it and the bullet base was still holding .356 and .357. Going to load up 15 rounds each with the lowest charge, 15 round mid-charge and then 15 rounds full charge. Hopefully this fixes this issue.

[Buck Butcher]

I’m sure you don’t want to hear this, but the 38 special expander is not what you want.

Call lee again, and get the .38 Smith and Wesson expander stem.

You may or may not be able to keep from swaging your boolit with the 38 special expander. I’m thinking you will be happier with the 38s&w expander in the long run. What’s a few more days?

You’re getting closer each time. Keep after it.

B B

[ivanfern]

I ordered the .38 smith and Wesson expander stem. Its a bit longer than the .38 special.

[ivanfern]

Went to the range and I am still receiving a lot of keyholes bullets. The diameter of the bullet is staying true after I load it into the case. Tried several powder charges and made no difference, I am thinking that I need a different mold. Any suggestions? I am desperate at this point to find a bullet that works

[Outpost75]

Have you assembled any dummys with .358" bullets to see if they would chamber?

Many wartime 9mm barrels are oversized. Load the largest bullet diameter which chambers without resistance.

[tazman]

Went to the range and I am still receiving a lot of keyholes bullets. The diameter of the bullet is staying true after I load it into the case. Tried several powder charges and made no difference, I am thinking that I need a different mold. Any suggestions? I am desperate at this point to find a bullet that works

The Lee 356-120-tc standard lube groove , the Lee 356-125-rn standard lube groove, Lyman 356402, any of the NOE 120-135 grain standard lube groove boolits for 9mm. I have had excellent results from all the molds I mentioned. I don't have any experience with other brands.

[toallmy]

At this point I would try a different cast boolit , just so I could enjoy shooting again . I wholeheartedly believe you could probably get that boolit to shoot , but life is to short to stress over it , unless you're just enjoying the challenge .

[waksupi]

If a bullet is keyholing, it is undersize.

[Valornor]

Psh, some companies spend lots of R&D to produce rifles that keyhole, and call it a “Reformation”

You might onto something here :-)


Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[fredj338]

I have heard far oo many stories of the TL designs not being very accurate in certain calibers. I would go with a conventional lube groove bullet. If you like Lee molds, their 120gr TC is very good. If you want a Rn, the 125gr should work too. For whatever reason Lee has chosen to ignore the 147gr/9mm guys out there, but their 150gr 38 RN will work.

[Finn45Colt]

My CZ p10c likes 50/50 pure lead/ WW .357 PCed NOE 135 FP , Geko shells expanded with NOE .358 expander, Win SP primers VV N310 2,6 gr. Load is mildest that do works feeding ammo. Velocity is well under 800fps, have to chrono it next time. Next plan is test how fast it can be pushed.
Shoots fine and it is my very FIRST 9MM Load [smilie=1:
Been reading all info here at CastBoolits and followed them trough casting and loading process.
Thanks to all members :cbpour:

[ivanfern]

So I have some great news finally. I used Wheel weight lead and casted 50 bullets with the lee 124gn mold. I powder coated them and they were around .358. I loaded them a lot softer charge this time and it made a huge difference. Previously I was loading 3.8gn to 4.1 gns. I read a lyman manual that called for 3.3gn of titegroup for cast so I did just that. I loaded 15 rounds of 3.3gns, 3.5 gns and 3.8 gns. The 3.8 keyholed most of the time. the 3.5 and 3.3 gave me no keyholes at all. I was pushing these bullets too fast. I grouped them off the bench and at 7 yards I had a 3inch group even with my shaky hands. All 3 of my 9mm guns cycled it perfectly with no problems and all shot straight. I will now begin to work a load with the lighter charges but I am very happy about the outcome.

[Valornor]

Interesting, I never would have guessed that to be the culprit. Thanks for sharing the results.


Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[tazman]

You might try water quenching them from the oven after powder coating in order to harden them. That should help them withstand the higher powder charges. It might give the boolit enough strength to withstand the extra push.
That particular boolit doesn't have the surface area on the drive bands that a standard lube groove boolit does. At higher pressures, it tends to shear off lead where the rifling should grip.
In lower pressured cartridges, such as 38 special and 45ACP, that style of boolit works fine.

[toallmy]

Good job

[drac0nic]

That's interesting I've shot a few thousand of these and never had issues with it in my SD9VE or AR9 Carbine. I went to the Lee 125gr LRN because the accuracy seemed better. That said these bullets are way easier to get "right" IMO due to not having to worry about jamming the ogive into the throat. I've had accuracy issues in the past with Titegroup so I may give reduction of load a shot and see if they close up.

[Phlier]

It has been touched on here, more than once. One thing to make sure of is that you are making the cases expand to larger than the factory size expander to deal with cast boolits.
Factory dies expander plugs are set to be used with the jacketed bullets that most use to reload instead of cast boolits & the expander plugs are sized in relation to the firearms bbl.

In the case of a 9mm Luger (9mm parabellum/9x19), that is usually .355, or sometimes .356. When we use cast boolits we prefer to go .001 or even more, over that amount to help the boolit seal the bore when fires. So, .356, .357 or even sometimes a bit more is the goal for cast boolit diameter.

Since most factory expander plugs are set to expand to .356 to aid in "bullet" seating and when the boolit is crimped it squeezes the brass to fit to the bullet.

If one uses the factory expander & plug for a cast boolit with a diameter of .356, .357 or even larger, a couple or both the following will likely happen.

1) the cast boolit will get "shaved" down smaller that its original diameter if the "bell" of the expanded case is too small,

and/or

2) the cast boolit will get "swaged" down in diameter when seated into the case, or it will get swaged when the final crimp is made if it is too much of a crimp.

The result of both is that the boolit is now undersized from the intended size of .001+ to help the boolit seal the bbl when it is fired since the lead alloy boolit is soft & the brass & subsequent crimping can further reduce the diameter.

So, instead of having a cast boolit that is still .001+ when fired, it has taken on the diameter of the brass inside dimension & is no longer that desired .001+ that was intended.

The problem can result in leading in bbl. near the chamber & streaking towards the muzzle, as well as a loss in accuracy after the cast boolit leaves the bbl.

A jacketed bullet will not usually swage down by the brass upon being seated nor by the crimping & thus does not give the same effect as the softer cast boolit will produce.

Solution is to use a larger expander plug that is bigger than the intended size of the cast boolit for the bbl of whatever firearm one is using & in this case the 9mm. As well, one needs to only use the "taper crimp" setting to the minimum "tightness" of crimp to hold the cast boolit from moving before it is fired. While there is not the same situation with a revolver where there can be "bullet/boolit setback", there is still the chance for "set back" into the case thru recoil as the round is chambered or even possibly in the magazine f the crimp is too lose to hold the cast boolit in place.

One of the best ways to check for this prevention of set back, but not so tight a crimp as to deform the diameter of the cast boolit is to set the crimp to the lightest one can use, then testing the boolits "hold" by measuring the OAL of the round first to make sure it is correct, then pushing the boolit into the edge of the reloading bench & then re-checking the OAL to see if the boolit moved into the case at all( "set back").

If it moved then the crimp needs to be tightened up a bit more until the cast boolit will not move when pushed against the bench & the OAL remains the same as what it was set at after removal from the crimp die.


So, in order to prevent the shaving or swaging issue, one needs to use a die & larger expander plug that will allow for the cast lead boolit to be seated & crimped to the .001+ larger size.

The crimping can still effect the cast boolit even if the expander plug is larger than a factory one if the crimp is set too tight, but the first step is to make sure that the cast boolit is not being shaved or swaged when it is seated after expanding the case.

Then the crimping check as described previously can be used to set the crimp.

I suggest setting the larger exp die first, then seat a cast boolit & then pull it & chack for any swaging or shaving and that the boolit is the same size diameter as it was before seating.

Then if it passed that test, then the next step is to work on setting the crimp as described previously & do the testing for "set back" to make sure that the round stays seated & crimped without swaging it smaller in diameter.

If the round is expanded properly to maintain the diameter of the cast boolit as intended & the crimping is not swagin the cast boolit, then the problem should be resolved.

If one still has a "fit" issue as shown by key holing, & leading by the chamber, then one may want to enlarge the cast boolit diameter even more as the bbl may be bigger in diameter than the .001+ that was used. Another factor can be the alloy BHN( hardness) where the boolit is too hard & is not obturating(<sealing the bbl) to the grooves of the bbl completely & that too will make for leading near the chamber & streaking down the bbl, as well as poorer accuracy.

Now, I realize that some who read this already know what I am trying to share, but I am posting this even though it has been explained by others before this & many times IIRC.

Sometimes it takes going back to some of the basics to get a handle on what one issue is being caused by.

Sometimes it is more than one step causing the issue, so it is best to just work oneself thru the steps, one step at a time & eliminate the variables that can cause the issue(s).

So, if someone reads this & already knows. So be it.

If not, then please give it some thought to try the suggestions & se if it helps you with the issues you are having.

There is more that can be addressed, but I think I typed enough now.
;)

G'Luck!

P.S. - I had to work thru this with several of my pistols ( .380 & 9mm) and finally got it figured out. I hope that everyone else has the same success I did in solving the issues as they happened.
;)

Thank you very much for taking the time to write all of that fantastic information down, rather than what might be considered the "typical" response of "just search for it." A lot of us value the time and effort some guys put into posts like this.


ivanfern,

I keep reading about folks thinking it is the design of the Lee 124gr. 2R TL.

Apparently some folks do not have the patience it takes to investigate issues & solve them on their own...
I am not like that. I prefer to solve the issues when I can, and off times I learn from doing it, so I have a bit of a different perspective, I reckon. I am not much for "quitting" or throwing things away because of what might be my own mistakes/errors because I missed something & not be so quick to blame something else for not working the way I expected...

Regardless, I do not have any problems using it with my SR9 after doing some of things mentioned about making sure the boolit diameter is not getting swaged down either by under expanding the case before seating, over crimping, boolit alloy is in the correct range for the velocity & the fit to the BBl is done properly.

And that is all with 45/45/10 tumble lube & not PC.

If one takes the time to check each of those things, regardless of lube/PC, one can trace the issue(s) & solve them.

Next, if those other checks show no change in boolit diameter, then a possibility is that the boolit is not being pushed fast enough, the boolit is getting put off balance as it leaves the muzzle due to a issue with the crown, or even gas cutting of the alloy so that one place in the boolit is getting cut while another is not & undoing the balance of the boolit as it leaves the muzzle. One more possibly thing, but not usually a likely factor could be unseen voids inside the boolit itself, but not so likely as some of the others mentioned, due to it being pistol & at what seems to be relatively short distances.

It is going to be a matter of doing some investigation & if you are accurate in measuring & careful how you do check things, you can simply eliminate possibilities.

If you take the time to do these things yourself until you are satisfied you have eliminated all of the things mentioned, then it is time to consider perhaps having someone do some work to the chamber/leade, etc. or "then" consider that the mold & its' boolits are the issue.

I find it a bit disappointing that so many suggest you scrap the mold, when you can do a bit of checking before that option.

But, do as ya like...

I will offer that if you decide you want to get rid of the mold, give me a PM & perhaps I will take it off your hands for a reasonably negotiated price.
;)

G'Luck in whatever you decide to do. Fix things, & learn by the doing of it while making it work for you, or just give up & get rid of the mold... Your choice.
;)

P.S. - Maybe next time, I will offer my opinion thru PM to folks, instead of thru the open forum, so I don't get the crapola & complaining from other members about not being detailed enough, or offering too much detail, like has happened before... Now I know why some do offer suggestions thru PM rather than open forum. It defeats the learning for others, but it eliminates most of the crapola & complaining.
Just to give my opinion on the parts of the quote above that I have put in bold...

First, regarding the infamous Lee TL356-124-2R. I have cast and shot well over 5,000 (probably closer to 6,000) of these boolits, and fed them through a S&W C.O.R.E. long slide, and a CZ 75 SP-01. That boolit has been those two guns primary diet for a few years now. And yes, it wasn't really an easy boolit to get to play well, but as you said, if you take the time to work through it, it performs very well.

My opinion, FWIW, is that everything you said is spot on. The only thing that I would add is that it really helped (in my situation, and it might help others) to load this boolit to as long of an OAL as you can and still have it pass the plunk test. I can get an OAL of 1.130 to pass the plunk in my guns. My completely unsubstantiated theory is that the less amount of brass it has to stretch when entering the case (shallower seating depth), the less it's going to get swaged down to too small of a diameter. That's a complete WAG on my part, but I kept getting better results (tighter groups and more consistent diameters of pulled bullets) the longer the OAL and the shallower the seating depth. Whether or not I accurately guessed the reason doesn't really matter.

Second, regarding the last part of the quote I put in bold. Please don't let the naysayers/trolls effect the way in which you contribute to the forums. There are far more of us that benefit from your posts than there are naysayers. Your contributions are very valuable to a lot of us.

[drac0nic]

Please don't let the naysayers/trolls effect the way in which you contribute to the forums. There are far more of us that benefit from your posts than there are naysayers. Your contributions are very valuable to a lot of us.

Agreed. I read this entire thread because I've run the same mold. Although I'm not having the accuracy issues of the OP I have never been delighted with the accuracy of this particular mold. It gives me a few items to think about and try. I've always found this combination curiously not accurate in my guns in my opinion and I'd like to sort that out.

I will also say that in my experience 9mm is very much an "advanced" caliber to reload with cast boolits. I've had a lot of trials with it myself and it's nice to have some ideas to play around with to make my stuff work better. As an example I've never had good luck with getting Titegroup accuracy wise and it sounds like maybe I need to reduce load.

[Phlier]

Agreed. I read this entire thread because I've run the same mold. Although I'm not having the accuracy issues of the OP I have never been delighted with the accuracy of this particular mold. It gives me a few items to think about and try. I've always found this combination curiously not accurate in my guns in my opinion and I'd like to sort that out.

I will also say that in my experience 9mm is very much an "advanced" caliber to reload with cast boolits. I've had a lot of trials with it myself and it's nice to have some ideas to play around with to make my stuff work better. As an example I've never had good luck with getting Titegroup accuracy wise and it sounds like maybe I need to reduce load.

I've run a pretty large gamut of powders with this bullet. I started out with CFE Pistol, then tried a variety of different powders. Not because I wasn't getting good results, but just because I had a bunch of different powders to fool with, and others that I wanted to use up.

IME, this boolit likes the slower burning powders. I ended up going back to CFE Pistol, which I'm currently using.

IMO, the key to really getting good accuracy with this bullet is a moderate load of slower burning powder with the longest OAL you can get your gun to reliably feed. This is, of course, assuming that you have the basic functionality (no leading, proper bullet size, proper cycling, etc.) all sorted out, and are just working on fine tuning the accuracy.

[JBinMN]

Phlier & Drac0nic,

Thanks for the posts of encouragement. It is duly noted & I appreciate your taking the time to comment.
:)

Regarding powders for this boolit. I have been mostly using Red Dot & Promo, along with Bullseye & IIRC I tried Clays & 700 as well with it. I use the R.Dot/Promo the most so far as it does the job for me and is inexpensive loading. I have pushed this boolit using Power Pistol as well , another IIRC, without looking, at about 1020- 1130fps. ( Note - The last time I was out with the chrony I forgot to type in the pistols in the data & I was testing Power Pistol with both a 9mm & a 45ACP & so I am not sure which one was the faster of the two. I was pushing 185gr. XTPs at just 0.01 gr. below Max for a defensive load in the 45, so it was running pretty fast, so it was in around the same FPS as the 9mm, but like said, not sure which one was the higher & which was the lower. Just some info for ya to consider. The 9mm had -0- leading with that load at that speed & I was using about a 12-14 BHN & 45/45/10 lube on this 124-2R boolit at the time.)

Anyway, G'Luck everyone who works on getting this boolit to work for them in the 9mm. LIke me, it may take a bit of working at it, but I think it can be done if one keeps reducing variables that would cause issues.

P.S. - One of my next experiments with this boolit is to try it in my 38Sp. & the 357 snubbies, if I can use an alloy to get it to be a bit bigger in diameter. That might be a consideration for those who give up on this boolit for the 9mm. Another thing I have not yet done is tested this one in my .380 yet. They are loaded with a ladder 0.01 gr. at a time with a few different powders as listed above, I have just not taken the time to take the chrony out to see how they run. I like testing, but did not have the time this year to do all the testing I wanted to do. Life gets in the way sometimes.
;)

Thanks again! & G'Luck! to all!
:drinks:

[drac0nic]

Powder wise this has very much preferred Bullseye and Blue Dot for me. As said I never got Titegroup to do what I wanted to.