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View Full Version : Jeep came out with a fix for the death wobble



MaryB
08-12-2019, 06:52 PM
Turns out the steering stabilizer gets air in it at cold temps causing issues.

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/jeep-wrangler-death-wobble-fix

tomme boy
08-12-2019, 10:21 PM
Jeeps are not the only ones that this happens to.

Bookworm
08-13-2019, 04:33 AM
That's the first thought I had - Jeep ain't alone.

I know that Dodge (now Ram) had a similar problem, that usually manifested in the 3/4 & 1 ton 4x4. Mostly it occurred after some consumer modifications - jacking it up, new (heavier) wheels/tires.
Some have partially remedied the problem by increasing the caster, and I wonder if that isn't the real-world solution.

It seems to me the steering stabilizer is just a band-aid from the get go, the makers didn't want to spend the engineering to actually fix the underlying problem.

Lloyd Smale
08-13-2019, 08:25 AM
im not buying. For one ive owned them since 1981 and never had a death wobble. Ive seen it happen though and have seen it happen on jeeps with even double gas stearing stablizers. Bottom line is the problem is blown way out of proportion and 99 percent of the time its when someone puts a budget lift and tires bigger then 35 inch without using heavier stearing components, drop brackets and address drive shaft angles. The other cause is worn out stearing gear because of the abuse of going off road especially with tires that would wear out a 1 ton heavy duty set up. I even drove my 2000 tj for a month without a stearing stabilizer. I took it off because it blew the oil out and ordered one and because of ot at work didn't have time to change it. Never once had death wobble even with it blow out or even without it even being there. Comical thing is there claiming only 2018s and 19s are having the problem. If anything the tj versions were hands down the worse offenders and it happened in Arizona desert temps as much as it did in Canadian winters. There just deflecting and pretending to have found solutions no doubt to try to impress the judges in that class action suit. Stearing stabliizers help a straight axle vehicle track down the road with a bit less hunting around and absorb some of the vibrations due to out of balance tires and probably even death wobble. They help hide it they don't prevent it from happening.

6bg6ga
08-13-2019, 08:29 AM
The Jeeps I owned CJ5, CJ7 years ago had what was called bounce steer. You would hit a bump and it would wobble. This was remedied by installing a shock type device for about $25-30. In todays world we have to cry about everything.

Mal Paso
08-13-2019, 09:36 AM
I agree, it's BS. I actually had a tie rod fall off, fortunately at 25 mph. 04 Dodge 3/4 4X. At the time only the left tie rod was under recall and this was the right side. I got rid of all the Mopar steering linkage right then. They pressed the ball into a cup and peened the lip to hold it and hung it upside down with the weight of the linkage on that peened lip. The steering box was junk too. They finally came up with a good one after 2 aftermarket boxes came out. I wouldn't call it a death wobble but the shakes I got were ALL from the Steering Box.

metricmonkeywrench
08-13-2019, 02:05 PM
OK folks time to remove all assumptions.. My 99 Ram 2500 and my sons Jeep Cherokee both suffered from the dreaded death wobble. There is no pucker factor worse than hitting an expansion joint or pothole at 65 mph and having the front end feel like the wheels went instantly square.

BOTH VEHICLES WERE BONE STOCK. period hard stop- no lifts or oversized tires.

I purchased the RAM new off the lot and our state has an inspection program so no bad ball joints or tie rods to blame as they were replaced as necessary. Shocks and stabilizers were replaces on a routine basis, yet the condition was still in the wings. If your in tune with the handling you could feel the flutter in the steering wheel and knew it was coming on and time to look for the faulty part. In the life of the vehicle I replaced numerous trackbars, stabilizers and even the steering box after a particularly bad episode damaged it. Routine oil changes included someone in the drivers seat rotating the steering wheel back and forth to see if anything was loose or moving when it was not supposed to.

The major issue is with the geometry of the suspension and track bar/steering linkage, with the steering stabilizer playing in as well. For what ever reason as the trucks got older and the suspension loosened up the issues became worse and thousands of dollars have been spent across the community to find the fix.

truckjohn
08-13-2019, 02:20 PM
99% of the time - this is an issue with tires that aren't balanced or have problems with being out of round. Alignment can somewhat make a difference in the severity of the wobble - but the wobble always starts with unbalanced tires.

My experience is that this problem is worse with tires that have deep treads and generally crops up as the tires experience end-of-life. I believe it's due to the fact that there is out-of-roundness in the body of the tire under the treads. They generally make sure the tires finished outside tread runs true - so they run nice and smooth when new.

tomme boy
08-13-2019, 05:21 PM
It does not come from unbalanced tires. That would cause the tire to bounce up and down. Not like what is known as the death wobble. That is side to side.

Petrol & Powder
08-13-2019, 06:52 PM
I had to deal with the "death wobble" on a 3/4 Dodge 4WD.
That truck had a solid front axle with coil springs and trailing arms and a track rod to locate the axle laterally. Because the steering box is attached to the frame rail, if the axle moves sideways (closer or farther) from that steering box it will also cause the wheels to deflect right and left. Once a resonance is set up that rapid left/right deflection of the front tires will continue until the truck slows down to a point that breaks that cycle.

That "death wobble" had nothing to do with the balance of the tires and the suspension was totally stock. No oversized wheels and tires, no funky springs, no lift. On every occasion it was worn joints on the ends of the track rod that allowed the axle to move sideways.

A steering damper can help prevent that resonance from setting in but the real problem is the axle moving sideways in relation to the steering gear.

Petrol & Powder
08-13-2019, 07:13 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07yvJuhnUYM

popper
08-13-2019, 07:38 PM
60F is COLD? Well, gets them off the bad boy list anyway.

MaryB
08-13-2019, 08:09 PM
Don't shoot the messenger LOL just posting what they claim! I know it is an issue in solid axle trucks, my GMC Jimmy did it once in awhile, usually on washboard gravel

MrWolf
08-13-2019, 08:59 PM
My 97 Dodge Ram 4x4 2500 HD had the same issue. Mine had the V-10 which Dodge finally admitted that the front end could not support the extra weight. They put in HD dampners supposedly which did fix the issue. Sorry don't remember much more from then as I was pursuing lemon laws as was not fun cruising in left lane and hitting a numb and next thing on the shoulder on right side.

Lloyd Smale
08-14-2019, 07:27 AM
probably why when I researched which lift kit to buy for my jk about every recommendation include replacing the front and rear track bars with heavier duty ones. Even so its a rare occurance. My last jeep a 2000 tj had a 120k on it when I gave it to my granddaughter. It had a 2 inch lift and 31s. It never did it once and shes put another 20k on it and it never happened to her. that said it was maintained and if something was worn it was replaced. Ive had jeeps for almost 40 years and had at least a dozen straight axle chev pickups and never once had it happen to me in probably a million miles. Im not saying it doesn't happen. Especially if your the type to fix your vechicle when it falls apart.
I had to deal with the "death wobble" on a 3/4 Dodge 4WD.
That truck had a solid front axle with coil springs and trailing arms and a track rod to locate the axle laterally. Because the steering box is attached to the frame rail, if the axle moves sideways (closer or farther) from that steering box it will also cause the wheels to deflect right and left. Once a resonance is set up that rapid left/right deflection of the front tires will continue until the truck slows down to a point that breaks that cycle.

That "death wobble" had nothing to do with the balance of the tires and the suspension was totally stock. No oversized wheels and tires, no funky springs, no lift. On every occasion it was worn joints on the ends of the track rod that allowed the axle to move sideways.

A steering damper can help prevent that resonance from setting in but the real problem is the axle moving sideways in relation to the steering gear.

6bg6ga
08-14-2019, 07:33 AM
I think its more of a question of worn parts contributing to the problem. My CJ5 had a problem for a short time that was corrected by the replacement of some worn parts. Any play can contribute to this condition and its not an out of balance problem as I ran unbalanced tires on my CJ5 while I was waiting for the tire company's new spin balancer to be delivered (many years ago).

psychodad
08-14-2019, 10:49 AM
My daughter recently borrowed our 96 Cherokee (stock) just under 100,000 mi. Hit an expansion joint at 70 mph on the interstate when it went into a Death Wobble. Scared her half to death. She had to slow to 35 to get it to stop. It did it one more time before she made it back home. At least she knew what to expect the 2nd time. I went ahead and bought a new track bar and steering stabilizer to install first chance I get. That'll be a start and hopefully will fix it. She has a '19 JK lifted with 33 or 35's. I don't want to be anywhere near that thing when it goes into a wobble.

KCSO
08-14-2019, 12:57 PM
For me the death wobble came as I went into the dealer to write the check! Then it hit again at the Co Clerks!

EDG
08-14-2019, 01:28 PM
I have seen that wobble in older jeeps when I was working at Ft Wolters towing helicopters during the Vietnam war. The govt contractor hired dozens of teenagers to tow helicopters off of the pad to the hangars for post flight maintenance. Most flying was done during the day and we towed on 2 shifts at night. We beat those jeeps to death drag racing in the dark. Many of them had loose front ends that would wobble simply from the slack in all the tie rods and suspension joints.

Petrol & Powder
08-14-2019, 04:31 PM
I think there's some misunderstanding about the term "death wobble". If you ever experience it, you will instantly know what it is and you will never forget it.

It comes from a solid front axle moving rapidly side to side (not up and down), it sets up a resonance and becomes a bit self sustaining.

A solid front axle with leaf springs will do it if the shackles are worn but the solid axles with coil springs are far more prone to the death wobble than the leaf spring designs.

It is a very misunderstood suspension problem. The axle moves sideways in relation to the frame but the steering box doesn't move. That relative motion causes the steering gear to turn the front wheels left or right and when everything rebounds, the steering gear turns the wheels the other direction. Once that resonance is set up, it continues on its own and it is a rapid shaking.

LLoyd, my Dodge didn't develop the death wobble until it was about 12-13 years old. The truck was well maintained but the track rod was a weak design from day one. It had a round bushing with a bolt through it on the axle side and a ball joint on the frame side. The rod itself was not stiff enough for the forces involved. The replacement track rods were not all the same. The cheap ones would fix the problem for a few months and the good ones for about a year. When the truck hit 17 years there were enough other problems that I was done with the entire truck. If I had held onto that truck, the next track rod was going to be one of the heavy duty, re-buildable track rods from Geno's Garage. The factory design just wasn't very strong; even when completely stock.
My father had an old Power Wagon with leaf springs and it never developed the "death wobble" despite far more age and abuse. I think the coil spring design on the Chryslers (and that includes the Jeeps), just wasn't as strong as it needed to be.

Lloyd Smale
08-15-2019, 06:43 AM
the ones I bought for my jk were easily twice the diameter as the stock ones. Death wobble on jeeps happens but if you look at the internet youd think 75 percent of them have the problem. When in fact it is very rare. About non existent in a jeep that doesn't have worn steering and suspension gear or modifications to its suspension.

Petrol & Powder
08-15-2019, 09:01 AM
I agree that the occurrence of "Death Wobble" is overplayed but it sure is frustrating when you're trying to eliminate it.

I believe part of the perception problem is Jeep is one of the few manufacturers still using a solid front axle so the occurrence tends to be particularized to the Jeep brand. There are other vehicles with solid front axles but in terms of sheer numbers, Jeep has a lot of solid axle/coil spring set ups on the road. So even if the death wobble problem occurs in a low percentage of Jeeps, it's still a big number.

When Jeep went to coil springs on the TJ, they did a pretty good job with that system. Even in bone stock factory configuration that system has a lot of articulation and retains good road manners. But that trailing arm/track rod/coil spring system is a lot more complex than the old leaf spring system.

Lloyd - I could not agree with you more concerning your comment that [death wobble is] "....About non existent in a jeep that doesn't have worn steering and suspension gear or modifications to its suspension. ".
On a well maintained, unaltered Jeep (or any other similar set up); death wobble is rare.

I also believe that the steering damper does almost NOTHING to eliminate death wobble. I'm skeptical of Chrysler's claim that they've "found" the cause and it's the steering damper. I think what they "found" was the simplest (least costly) thing to blame.

I think a lot of after market steering dampers get sold because it is an easy bolt-on, highly visible modification that all of your friends can see when you park your spotless jacked-up truck in the mall parking lot.

The solid axle/coil spring set up used on newer Jeeps (TJ & JK) requires 4 trailing arms (2 on each side) and a track rod to locate the axle. The upper trailing arms are intentionally not parallel with the lower control arms to help control lateral movement of the axle. But there's only so much angle you can add before things start to bind up. The engineers did the best they could within the space they had.
The rest of the lateral control is handled by the track rod. Again, not a perfect solution but one that works well when everything is tight and well maintained.

I think what Chrysler doesn't want to publically admit is this system works well when it's new and has a lot of potentially expensive failure points when it gets worn. That would be an expensive admission in today's litigious society of class action lawsuits and mandated recalls.

Outpost75
08-15-2019, 11:45 AM
Another single-point of failure in older Jeeps are the brake lines. On older, high-mileage Jeeps the brake lines are subject to failure by corroding from the inside out. This condition is not apparent to visual inspection, and service techs will only check for leaks and call it good if there are none.

I recently experienced a catatrophic brake failure when a rear wheel brake line on my 2000 year model Cherokee Sport failed. The pedal went all the way to the floor! Luckily the hand brake still worked and I was able to safely get the vehicle off the road and towed to the dealership. Chrysler no longer had replacement brake lines to fit this model, so I had custom ones bent and fabricated. Because of the age and high mileage of the vehicle, I had ALL of the brake lines, both fronts and rears replaced, and not taking a chance by replacing only the one that failed, as the others were an accident waiting to happen. Also replaced wheel cylinders, new master cylinder, etc. It was a BIG money repair.

But I prefer my well-maintained older Jeep to the ones Chrysler is making now.

sundog
08-15-2019, 12:14 PM
My first 'ride' was a '46 Willys CJ2, and it had death wobble. Front end parts were good. Steering dampener fixed it. Sure wish I still had it. Saw a good condition '47 in Silverton, CO, a few years ago that also had a steering dampener. Owner said, no problems.

Petrol & Powder
08-15-2019, 05:08 PM
Outpost75, I've been there and done that and have the grease stained Tee shirt :-o

At least with a post 1966 U.S. made vehicle you will have a dual piston master cylinder and in theory :bigsmyl2: shouldn't lose both the front and rear hydraulic circuits at once. There will be a lot of pedal travel and it is far worse if you lose the front circuit but you should still have a little braking force from the other circuit.

I've lost a brake line on a vehicle with a single piston master cylinder (twice) and that's really exciting ! One time in a 65 Plymouth and the transmission saved me. The other was in an International Harvester PU and that thing barely went fast enough to even need brakes.

You were absolutely right to replace ALL of the braking system after that failure. It was only a matter of time before another line, hose, wheel cylinder or master cylinder failed. I've seen people patch those things but I don't know how you would ever trust the system again.

leadman
08-15-2019, 06:32 PM
I wonder if Chrysler is also going to try to cure the Death Wobble on the towed Grand Cherokees?
Many years ago I had a 2 wheel drive 1973 Ford F250. Three on the tree, Twin I-beam front suspension and no power steering. Had a bad death wobble but normally when just starting out. Damper fixed it.

Idaho45guy
08-15-2019, 08:16 PM
Yesterday I fixed all of the issues with my 2005 Yukon. Fixed the AC system leak, the air bag system failure light, the slipping transmission, the consumption of 2 quarts of oil between oil changes, the rattling interior pieces, the broken center console latch, the seats that hurt my back driving more than 100 miles, and the 15mpg...

246775

This thing is amazing! Quiet, comfortable, fun to drive, and tight as a drum. Looked at similar vehicles from Ford and Dodge and they were remarkably less refined, less capable, and more expensive.

Petrol & Powder
08-15-2019, 08:20 PM
Nice vehicle Idaho45

I can't speak for the new Toyotas but the old ones are good vehicles.

Idaho45guy
08-15-2019, 08:24 PM
Nice vehicle Idaho45

I can't speak for the new Toyotas but the old ones are good vehicles.

Apparently, the Toyotas that are still made in Japan are excellent. The newer Tacoma pickups and Tundras aren't. My 4Runner is. A lot of guys on the 4Runner forums were saying that they have had a lot of issues with the US-built trucks, and that is genuinely sad.

Petrol & Powder
08-15-2019, 08:48 PM
Whenever someone starts ragging on Toyota I always point out the abundance of news videos that show some incredibly abused Hi-lux in some horrible third world country. (usually with a Soviet DShK machinegun bolted in the bed). That's not the same truck they sell here but Toyota is doing something right. Those things are indestructible.

enfield
08-15-2019, 09:07 PM
81 CJ5 , with some play in linkage and crappy tires had "death wobble" now with tight front end and new 12.5 x 33 Mickey Thompson's no wobble , 1952 Willy's all new steering linkage. new bushings in steering box and Firestone MT2's no wobble ( mind you top speed is about 43 MPH !! ) but we still have to replace steering dampers on 2018 F250's that shake you off the road . So the engineers haven't figured it out yet.

Lloyd Smale
08-16-2019, 07:14 AM
heck every Silverado ive owned more then 8 years up here in salt country have the brake lines rotted so bad they need to be replaced. Probably true of about every vehicle on the road up here.
Another single-point of failure in older Jeeps are the brake lines. On older, high-mileage Jeeps the brake lines are subject to failure by corroding from the inside out. This condition is not apparent to visual inspection, and service techs will only check for leaks and call it good if there are none.

I recently experienced a catatrophic brake failure when a rear wheel brake line on my 2000 year model Cherokee Sport failed. The pedal went all the way to the floor! Luckily the hand brake still worked and I was able to safely get the vehicle off the road and towed to the dealership. Chrysler no longer had replacement brake lines to fit this model, so I had custom ones bent and fabricated. Because of the age and high mileage of the vehicle, I had ALL of the brake lines, both fronts and rears replaced, and not taking a chance by replacing only the one that failed, as the others were an accident waiting to happen. Also replaced wheel cylinders, new master cylinder, etc. It was a BIG money repair.

But I prefer my well-maintained older Jeep to the ones Chrysler is making now.

Lloyd Smale
08-16-2019, 07:16 AM
I also believe that the steering damper does almost NOTHING to eliminate death wobble. I'm skeptical of Chrysler's claim that they've "found" the cause and it's the steering damper. I think what they "found" was the simplest (least costly) thing to blame.

I think a lot of after market steering dampers get sold because it is an easy bolt-on, highly visible modification that all of your friends can see when you park your spotless jacked-up truck in the mall parking lot. Yup we used to chuckle at guys who ran two and even three of them and even waxed them so they didn't rust and looked cool. Had to have a fancy colored occordian boot on them to in some bright look at me color.

Lloyd Smale
08-16-2019, 07:26 AM
Yesterday I fixed all of the issues with my 2005 Yukon. Fixed the AC system leak, the air bag system failure light, the slipping transmission, the consumption of 2 quarts of oil between oil changes, the rattling interior pieces, the broken center console latch, the seats that hurt my back driving more than 100 miles, and the 15mpg...

246775

This thing is amazing! Quiet, comfortable, fun to drive, and tight as a drum. Looked at similar vehicles from Ford and Dodge and they were remarkably less refined, less capable, and more expensive.

lets wait for your opinion when its 15 years old. You aren't going where my jeep goes in that rig either. Years ago Toyota made a REAL off road rig. The real land cruiser. They should have retired the name instead of using it to compete with the likes of a Yukon or Tahoe. or expedition. It was about the same as ford making mustangs on fox chassis! Or dodge calling a k car chassis 2 door a Daytona! Probably a good rig but its just another soccer mom sport utility.

Idaho45guy
08-16-2019, 10:21 AM
lets wait for your opinion when its 15 years old. You aren't going where my jeep goes in that rig either. Years ago Toyota made a REAL off road rig. The real land cruiser. They should have retired the name instead of using it to compete with the likes of a Yukon or Tahoe. or expedition. It was about the same as ford making mustangs on fox chassis! Or dodge calling a k car chassis 2 door a Daytona! Probably a good rig but its just another soccer mom sport utility.

LOL. What? Fifteen years? You do realize that 4Runners are one of the top vehicles that stay on the road the longest, right? Jeep didn't make that list.

https://www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/the-cars-that-hit-200000-miles-and-keep-going-including-5-that-hit-300000.html/

Jeeps are not known for longevity or reliability. It's pretty much common knowledge that they are the most unreliable and unpredictable vehicles on the road.

That's a fact, backed by empirical data. No matter how much you want to delude yourself or say how your Jeep has been flawless in 300k miles of driving, or how your granddaddy drove one a million miles and fixed it with nothing but bailing wire and duct tape.

You know what? Your Jeep isn't going to win any drag races, nor is it going to win any other kind of race. It does ONE thing well, and that is traverse terrain. Why? Because it has solid axles and is compact. There is nothing magical about a Jeep. Nothing but a numbers game.

And the Toyota 4Runner is no slouch off-road, either. In fact, Google "4Runner vs. Jeep wrangler unlimited" and one of the first articles that appears has the writers saying the 4Runner is actually superior to the Jeep off-road.

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/toyota/toyota-4runner-trd-pro-vs-jeep-wrangler-unlimited-ar165630.html

"Just like putting lipstick on a pig, the Sahara edition doesn’t change the fact the Wrangler is a hard-core off-roader to its soul. That characteristic shines through no matter what terrain the Jeep rolls across, for better or worse. The 4Runner on the other hand, is like putting bacon on a sandwich. It was good to begin with, but with the added goodies, it performs all the better. The 4Runner is the more competent on-road handler yet still outperforms the Sahara edition Wrangler on the trail. Much of that can be attributed to the TRD Pro’s more aggressive tires and upgraded suspension.

The Wrangler Rubicon version would be more equally matched to the 4Runner TRD Pro’s prowess in the dirt, but the upgrade wouldn’t change the Jeep’s rough and tumble interior and less than stellar Uconnect system. From the driver’s prospective, the 4Runner is just a more comfortable vehicle on and off the road."

So deal with that.

Still want to continue to insult my vehicle? Do you really want to compare a 4Runner to the same size Jeep Wrangler unlimited in terms of reliability?

I can throw facts backed by empirical data at you all day long.

But it sounds like you subscribe to the Joe Biden philosophy; "We choose truth over facts."

Lloyd Smale
08-17-2019, 07:59 AM
yup and look at the typical life of a jeep and the life of a 4 runner and its like comparing an infantry soldier to a ballerina. That said I have no doubt the Toyota would out last the jeep if they both only saw road use. For that matter so would a Tahoe or a ford suv. All I can say is if you think that sport utility soccer mom unit or any of the suvs on the market can follow me in my jeep in the back country. (im not talking a 2 lane dirt road) then grab one and take a couple grand out of the bank and come on up and we can do a little wager. I know 3 or 4 trails that ill show you and let you pick. 3 of them I doubt youd get a 4 door wrangler down. You worry about "U CONNECT" and "more confortable ride" ill worry about mud up to the top of my hood. I knew it was a yuppie review when I saw them bragging on soft touch leather!!!!