Iron sights at 100 yards

[waksupi]

I picked up (another!) Trapdoor Springfield last week, Model 1873. This is a target at 100 yards. I need to soften the alloy a bit, I was getting the slightest bit of tipping on target as the barrel warmed.

I recall someone saying a couple weeks ago this wasn't possible with iron sights. Wrong.

246020

[44Blam]

I picked up (another!) Trapdoor Springfield last week, Model 1873. This is a target at 100 yards. I need to soften the alloy a bit, I was getting the slightest bit of tipping on target as the barrel warmed.

I recall someone saying a couple weeks ago this wasn't possible with iron sights. Wrong.

246020

Good shooting. 1 MOA with irons is certainly achievable if your process is good.

[gwpercle]

Looks like that "expert" had no idea what he was talking about ...most don't and would amazed what a good rifleman can do with a receiver (peep) sight at 100 yards.

Good Shooting !

Gary

[415m3]

I'm TD shopping right now, what HB bullet mold do you use? And judging by your notes, that's 4064 with WC872 on top?

[country gent]

I shot a M1A in NRA high power matches with the NM aperture rear and blade front. matches were stages at 300 yds 2, 300 yds 1 and 600yds 1. With these sights and rifle it was not unusual to have core groups around 1 moa from position. Not the 200 offhand but sitting and prones were. The apertures on the match rifle were even better for this. To someone used to using them and experienced iron sights arnt a hindrance. Drop in on a 1000yd service rifle or match rifle iron sight match sometime and see all the cleans being shot. For years the palma match was 800yds,900yds and 1000yds with aperture sights.
Iron sights can and are very accurate with some training, practice and experience.

[M-Tecs]

Excellent shooting with TD. As to groups with iron when I was building and testing M-14's and M1A's in the 90's and early 2000's I would test from the bench with 10 shot groups. My eyes were never that great but I could consistently hold 3/4 MOA for the 10 shot groups.

Some of the guys I shot with could call their shot in the X-ring at 1,000 yards using irons. Pretty amazing scoring for some that is calling there shots within a couple of inches at a 1,000 yards with iron. With my eyes best I could do was calling them with the 10 ring.

[dverna]

When someone says "iron sights". I think about the cheap junk on most factory rifles....not aperture or peep sights.

I used good sights for small bore and they worked well. I added good sights to a couple of my lever actions and they shoot well enough.

Still prefer a scope for testing and hunting.

[M-Tecs]

For NRA Highpower match rifles normally have an aperture front and rear sight. Service rifles up until the resent change allowing optics used a post front sight. The rear sight could be tuned but it was still the same basic service rifle rear. My claims above are for a post front sight.

[waksupi]

The bullet is the .405 Government bullet. Correct on the powder charge.

This wasn't done with an aperture sight, just the standard military notch that I widened a few thousandths. I made a new front sight that was wider, and I cut it to be dead on at 100 yards.

[Texas by God]

Very, very good shooting. The first 98 Krag I bought with a Lyman peep sight opened my eyes -so to speak-with groups like yours at 100 yards. Ditto a couple of K31 Swiss. I grew up shooting Dad’s old 94 30-30 and fist size groups were a good thing! I hope my new Springfield Krag shoots as good as your Springfield Trapdoor.

[tazman]

I am always impressed by the accuracy some people can get with peep sights.
My eyes are poor enough that there is no way I can get groups like that without optics. Even when my eyes were better, I still wasn't capable of that kind of accuracy.
Great shooting.

[waksupi]

I am always impressed by the accuracy some people can get with peep sights.
My eyes are poor enough that there is no way I can get groups like that without optics. Even when my eyes were better, I still wasn't capable of that kind of accuracy.
Great shooting.

This wasn't with a peep sight. Just the low rear issue sight.

[tazman]

Even better!

[M-Tecs]

In the 70's I reloaded for a 7th Calvary re-enactment club. Shot a lot of TD. Normally I shot about 5,000 per year for 5 or 6 years with TD's.

Dad had a TD with a Douglas barrel and Buffington sight. Others had original or H&R repro's. Sub 1 MOA 5 shot groups with Dad's rifle was the norm with my teenage eyes. Dad shot small bore comp. and he could do the same. The H&R's 1 1/2 MOA was common. With the original not so much. The was mostly do to undersized bullets. We didn't know better at the time and all bullets where sized to .459".

Focusing properly on the front sight take a great deal of concentration. With the proper target and situation what can be done with standard iron sights is amazing.

[brewer12345]

I have been spending a lot of quality time wringing out a pair of muzzleloaders in order to be ready for elk and deer seasons this fall. This spring I was pretty disappointed that I could do fine at 50 yards, but 100 was pretty much a guess as to where the slug would go. Last month I had my eye exam and my prescription was overdue to be bumped up. Lo and behold, I can now see the 100 yard target! I fiddled around with my charges and now have a 54 cal load for a 380 grain conical that hits a couple inches high at 50 and is dead on at 100 and prints small groups way out there. Hopefully I get a chance to put the metal to the meat in one or both seasons!

Don't ask about the recoil...

[Wayne Smith]

Yaah, I've given up on open sights, at least until I get my cataracts dealt with. My eye MD told me there is no point in getting new glasses, they won't do me any good.

[pworley1]

Very nice group.

[mattw]

Nice work! When I was in my 30's, I could shoot my old Marlin 1894C in 357 like that with the factory sites with mild modifications. I also ran 180 to 215 grain cast bullets to pull it off. Now, at 100 yards with open sites I am doing good to keep 8 out of 10 offhand on a tie plate. I really do miss being able to shoot decent open sites well. I can still shoot peeps pretty well, if the aperture is small enough.

[dverna]

This wasn't with a peep sight. Just the low rear issue sight.

Well...3 shot groups are good for that kind of "proof". We know there are critical elements to accuracy. A gun that is capable, an excellent bullet, a load (powder, primer, COL) the gun "likes", and the shooter. Sights allow the shooter to get the job done. Iron sights are poor tools to accomplish that task. Yes, one can get lucky at times, but it is mostly luck.

When I did load development for my CAS rifle (Marlin 1894) I mounted a scope and used 10 shot groups. Adjusted the iron sights once I had an accurate load. Quite a few times, even with a scope, I would get three shots nearly touching and then the group would open up as more rounds were fired. Barrel was not leading, but even a poor load may give a small three shot group.

You mentioned "I was getting the slightest bit of tipping on target as the barrel warmed". More shots would have given a better indication of accuracy and waiting for the barrel to cool is frustrating when developing a load.

[tazman]

More than three shot groups are fine if you are actually going to shoot that many times during normal usage.
For hunting, you are seldom going to shoot more than three rounds without having time for the barrel to cool. Varmint hunting is one of the exceptions.
I like to take two or three shots and then wait for the barrel to cool, sometimes even the next day, before I shoot again. This tells me what a cold bore is going to do when I go hunting.

My point is, use your practice to simulate what you are going to use the gun for. If you shoot lots of shots during normal use, then test your firearm that way. If you shoot few shots during your normal use, then go with fewer shots for testing.
You may have a rifle that puts that cold bore shot in the same place each time with succeeding shots somewhere else. That may be fine for a hunter who only needs that first shot.
Sorry for the thread drift.

[waksupi]

Well...3 shot groups are good for that kind of "proof". We know there are critical elements to accuracy. A gun that is capable, an excellent bullet, a load (powder, primer, COL) the gun "likes", and the shooter. Sights allow the shooter to get the job done. Iron sights are poor tools to accomplish that task. Yes, one can get lucky at times, but it is mostly luck.

When I did load development for my CAS rifle (Marlin 1894) I mounted a scope and used 10 shot groups. Adjusted the iron sights once I had an accurate load. Quite a few times, even with a scope, I would get three shots nearly touching and then the group would open up as more rounds were fired. Barrel was not leading, but even a poor load may give a small three shot group.

You mentioned "I was getting the slightest bit of tipping on target as the barrel warmed". More shots would have given a better indication of accuracy and waiting for the barrel to cool is frustrating when developing a load.

I had three consecutive groups of the same size, while adjusting sights. When I get some softer bullets cast up, I'll go for some ten shot groups.

[David2011]

That's some nice shooting! When I was in my 20s I managed to shoot a 1-1/8" 5 shot group at 100 with a Garand. It was a buddy's beautiful match grade rifle. I still managed a 1.25" 5 shot group at 100 at the age of 55 with my CMP Special Grade Garand. It's fun to talk friends into shooting with iron sights at 100-200 yards. They're surprised at how consistently they can ring the steel with iron sights.

[Kraschenbirn]

246428

Trying out a new pair of glasses yesterday and shot this 'off the bench' with my .38-55 Highwall...early in the day, dead calm, no mirage. Homemade target is a 12" black disc with a 3" bull. Yeah, I know, it's only five shots and probably a fluke 'cause that rifle/load usually prints more like 2 moa but...there it is 2 3/4"CTC @ 300 yds.

Bill

[BlackPowderLove]

I recall someone saying a couple weeks ago this wasn't possible with iron sights. Wrong.



That someone must not have ever heard of Simo Häyhä

[Bazoo]

When I was in my 30's, I could shoot my old Marlin 1894C in 357 like that with the factory sites with mild modifications.
Sir, might I inquire as to the nature of those modifications?

Thanks

Bazoo

[KCSO]

My best group ever was a 1 7/8" group off hand at 100 yards with a 50 cal M/L. Normally I could shoot under 3 inches or so with iron sights when I had good eyes. The best bench rest group I ever saw was a buddy shooting the new Hawken I built for him. His first 3 shot with standard iron sights was three shots touching at 100 yards. Then he quit, chickened out and was afraid to shoot 5.

Average eyes should be good for at least 4 inches at 100 yards with military iron sights and about 1/2 that with good peep sights. Now days shooting lefty from a rest I can only get down to 3 inches or so but my holding and my trigger control still need work.

[9.3X62AL]

That is hella-good shooting with open irons, Ric. Your combo is a venison-maker for darn sure.

I am comfortable using open irons and aperture irons on rifles and handguns. All but two of the deer I have taken have fallen to iron-sighted rifles and revolvers. I have yet to own a handgun scope. I have recently purchased a couple single-action Ruger revolvers that include scope rings, but unsure whether I will try glassware on them. I might, for curiosity's sake--but the idea seems kinda counter-intuitive and over-specialized to me. Less than 1/3 of the rifles in my safe wear glasses. For several years I had access to a range site close to my home that featured iron clanger targets in their rifle bays from 100-600 yards. Using the mil-spec sights on my A2-version AR-15, I assure you that a man-sized target to 600 yards would be TOAST using that rifle. It does fine things using the Sierra 65 grain BTSP--2.0 to 2.5 MOA at 600 yards very reliably.

[Rick Hodges]

That is a fine shooting rifle and rifleman Ric. My old eyes can't manage anything near that anymore....will be scheduling cataract surgery later this month.
I've not scoped a handgun and have no desire to, kind of defeats the purpose if you ask me. On the other hand I have scoped most of my rifles, yep even my Marlin 1895 Guide gun, mostly because the scopes allow me to hunt all legal hunting times in my state, something iron sights won't allow. Seems I loose about 1/2hr. to 45 minutes off of each end. The most productive hour of the day.

[John Boy]

The Springfied 1873 receiver sights are graduated in yards and are accurate. I can crank mine to 1000yds, adjust the windage and am able to hit the 10 inch 10 ring and with good luck, the 5 inch bullseye

[303Guy]

I had this mini 14 with a see through scope mount. I would set it up and aim at distant objects then look through the scope and find the crosshairs on target! I have a Remington Sportmaster with scope and my buddy had one just with original irons and he could shoot as good as I could with mine and no one could outshoot me with my Remington!

Now that my eyes aren't so young anymore, I've developed a leaning for iron sights again and I just so happen to have a Remington Fieldmaster with iron sights .... I'm keen to get out to a nice spot to do some iron sight shooting with it. Not too long ago I shot a ten shot near MOA group with my Lee Enfield fitted with a Martini 303 barrel with it's iron sights at 100m with paper patched boolits. That load must have been accurate. Need to get that thing shooting again!

[444ttd]

I picked up (another!) Trapdoor Springfield last week, Model 1873. This is a target at 100 yards. I need to soften the alloy a bit, I was getting the slightest bit of tipping on target as the barrel warmed.

I recall someone saying a couple weeks ago this wasn't possible with iron sights. Wrong.

246020

i did this with my 1898 spr armory in 30-40 krag. this was with open sights, not peep, at 100 yards.
https://i.imgur.com/ebk7JpN.jpg

[Minaprob]

Nice shooting I love ringing steel at 300 with my tds

[abunaitoo]

I shoot everything with Iron Sights.
Majority military.
Sometimes, I surprise myself.
Getting older, it's getting harder to see the target and front sight.
I'll keep on shooting Iron Sights until I just can't anymore.