Projectile question

[Texasgunnut]

I was wondering and trying to find a list of projects used in smoothie guns. I would assume ball and shot, but we're there ever conical used?

[pietro]

.

IDK about conicals, but I used .535" PRB's in my T/C .56SB (smoothie) - which was plenty enough accurate & powerful to take deer to at least 100yds (I hunt in tight quarters, aka buck bedrooms - where 50yds is a long shot)


.

[LAGS]

The TC .56 SB that I had was great at 50 Yards and fair at 75 with a PRB.
But I couldn't see it doing any good with a conical past 25 yards.
So , I had Hoyt bore it out and rifle it to .610 for RB.
Now with rifling, ( even a slow twist ) I might try a home made conical just to see what range I can get.
It is funny.
A baseball curves with spin on it.
A football wont fly straight unless it has a spin on it.
But I wonder about a Rifled slug in a smoothbore, similar to a shotgun slug.

[longbow]

What LAGS said.

Depends on what tools you have or how much money you want to spend.

A shotgun slug Foster style should work in a smoothbore musket though I have never read of anyone doing it. Not sure why. I've seen the same question a few times but no response with range results.

Alternately a Brenneke style slug with attached wad should work as well or better from smoothbore musket.

The trick here is fit. You'd likely have to get a custom mould or make one yourself... or have one altered. For instance a 12 ga. Lyman Foster mould casts from 0.690" to 0.705" depending on who you talk to. Mine casts 0.705" so way small for typical 12 ga. Not sure if the 20 ga. mould is small for 20 ga. in the same way. So you need to slug the bore then find a mould that is a slip fit with a bit of room for fouling then using it like a Minie if hollow base or slight rattle fit if like Brenneke.

Having said all that, what's the advantage? Loose round balls don't generally group very tightly though oversize and sized round balls can and patched round balls can be quite accurate out to 100 yards or so... so I have read and been told. I have not shot patched round balls from smoothbore muzzleloader but have launched hundreds downrange from smoothbore 12 ga. breechloader. My good loads can be counted on to give 4" and under groups out to 50 yards and can group quite well to about 75 yards. Much beyond and groups tend to open up and fliers are common. A patched round ball from smoothbore musket should easily match that or exceed it.

Look for some of Waksupi's posts on smoothbore musket accuracy.

My experience and thoughts anyway... $0.02 worth.

Longbow

[jdfoxinc]

It will keyhole.

[Outpost75]

These .44-40 and not muzzleloader, but good illustration on ball vs. conical in a smooth bore:

.44/.410 Garden Gun .425" cylinder no choke:

245617245618

[LAGS]

In my .56 SB , I did try Slugs with a 28 ga. plastic Shotgun wad.
They did better than a Conical that was the size of the bore.
But on paper, I could see that they were tumbling at any long distance.
A friend suggested that I try a Hollow based Conical to put most of the weight forward on the projectile.
That has a similar effect like putting Feathers ( Fletching ) on an arrow.
But I just never got around to it.

[Texasgunnut]

I plan on buck and ball for deer. Shot for small game. It was just a random thought I had and couldn't find any info on.

[Maven]

TXgn, Just a thought, but have you considered trying a .58cal. Mine Ball paper patched for a snug fit in your [GRF] trade gun bbl.? Lee Precision offers several designs and the mold won't break the bank either. Btw, my GRF trade gun is most accurate with patched RB's between .597" - .604" + an OP wad of some sort (lubed felt, lubed corrugated cardboard, card stock) + 65gr. - 80gr. FFFg. Second most accurate is a .618" - .619" bore sized RB with a lubed felt OP wad, but this one needs 80gr. FFFg for center impact @ 25 yd.

[LAGS]

Another thought.
This may not be the right thread to start the talk of the possibilities.
What if you had someone with a Laser Printer, make you up some Rifled Plastic Sabots to fire slugs in a Smoothbore ML.
That would at least give you a chance at putting minimal spin on your Conical for possibly a little more range.

[Texasgunnut]

Or a slow twist rate wad for roundball. Like the slugger shotgun slugs.

[RED BEAR]

I plan on buck and ball for deer. Shot for small game. It was just a random thought I had and couldn't find any info on.

I have read buck and ball was not good for hunting only for self defense not sure the reasoning for this the buck and ball rounds i load for shotgun are easily accurate enough. And would seem to have more than enough power for deer. Well good hunting.

[longbow]

My opinion only...

Why buck and ball? If the ball hits where it is supposed to it will do the job but if the ball misses and a pellet or two of buckshot hit they will not likely take the animal down. A full load of 00 buck... okay as long as the critter is in range.

I once shot a spike buck at about 25 to maybe 30 yards with 3 3/4 dram load of BP in a side by muzzleloaing shotgun with 12 pellets of 00 buck. He ran about 100 yard before dropping and I dug 9 out of 12 pellets out of him with lots of damage but to think of only 2 or 3 pellets hitting him doesn't make me feel good.

Buck and ball loads were used by militarys to try to make contact with an enemy in any way they could... and more often, and a pellet or two there can disable the enemy. No less cruel actually, but war is not hunting.

On the topic of conicals, I'll agree that a Minie likely would tumble as they generally are not weight forward enough to be stable without rifling but a Foster style slug or Brenneke style slug should not tumble any more than it would from modern gun.

Longbow

[Texasgunnut]

I don't articulate very well. I meant I will either use buckshot or round Ball for deer hunting. Shot probably number 5 for everything else.

[waksupi]

I don't articulate very well. I meant I will either use buckshot or round Ball for deer hunting. Shot probably number 5 for everything else.

Stick with the round ball. Too many failures with buckshot.

[Texasgunnut]

i think i will stick with round balls. How do i deal with a very tight barrel. this is more of a 23 gauge. bore measures .60. I have ordered a better caliper and i will check again. i'm assuming a moderately tight patch since there are no grooves it just makes it centered. or would a paper patched like in a speed loader work well?

[LAGS]

You can do a Bore Cast without pulling the Breech plug.
You have to use a threaded rod, and a spacer and nut to get the slug out of your barrel.
It just depends on what time you want to put into your project , to get the info you want.

[rmark]

During the Civil War there was a short conical named a Nessler Ball intended for smooth bores.

[Texasgunnut]

Can't find a nessler mold. Anyone got a link.

[Good Cheer]

.60 bore...
There are some .595 diameter ball molds floating around. Maybe you could speed load with powder / wad / ball, no patch. The .005 breezeway might let you seat balls in a dirty barrel. I've read about people rolling balls between two rough files to rough up the surface and dip them in lube also.

[725]

If you can find the above .595 RB mold, powder coating will give you a few thou added to the ball.

[Maven]

TXgn, I googled the Nessler Ball/bullet and found few purveyors of said mould let alone one in 20ga. + great disagreement as to its actual design. OTOH, a patched RB can be quite accurate in your gun (I have the same one) and the Lee Precision .600" RB mould casts beautifully and is very attractively priced. Mine casts a .598" RB's + it has a sprue cutter, which my Jeff Tanner mould lacks.

[Texasgunnut]

Thank You Maven and all. Do you use them as cast with no patching?

[Maven]

TXgn, I almost always use a patch with RB's in my 20ga. GRF smoothbore. More specifically, a .014" - .018" (compressed measurement) pillow ticking patch with RB's between .597" - .603" as my particular gun doesn't shoot bare balls of that size very well, perhaps because the bore measures .618" .619" in diameter. However, several months ago I ordered a bore diameter, i.e., .618" -.619" RB mould from Jeff Tanner as I thought a bore sized projectile might be as accurate as a patched RB. In short, it wasn't as accurate as its smaller patched cousin and hit lower on the target @ 25 yd. than the former, but it did indeed group better than the smaller, but bare RB's. (I.e., it was almost as accurate as the patched RB.) Btw, the "bore riding" RB also had a greased felt OP wad and an 80gr. FFFg powder charge to raise the impact some. Lastly, since it fits my bore so tightly, I don't need an overshot wad (less accurate with the OS wad too), but do need to swab the bore after each shot. Hope this is helpful!

[ResearchPress]

During the Civil War there was a short conical named a Nessler Ball intended for smooth bores.

This was also used in the Crimean War in the 1850s.

David