45/70 Leading Question

[tmanbuckhunter]

Having a minor issue with leading in my guide gun, and I just want to make sure I'm on track here.

Details as follows...
Boolit: Accurate 46-360M sized to .460 (.4585 groove diameter)
Alloy: Roto Metals Hardball aircooled
Lube: White Label 45/45/10
Powder: Accurate 5744

I started at 31.5, and worked my way up to 33.5grs. 31.5 delivered an average velocity of 1474fps, with 33.5 delivering an average velo of 1558FPS. Roughly a 20-30fps increase per every 5/10ths of a grain of powder. 31.5gr delivered exceptional accuracy, but the faster the boolits went the worse accuracy got finishing up with a 3" group at 50 yards.

Upon further inspection of the bore after letting solvent sit in it overnight, I am seeing lead streaks following the rifling thru out. My first thought that comes to mind is that I am not pushing this alloy hard enough. Maximum chamber pressure for this alloy should be in the 37,000psi range, and the working chamber pressure of the load should be at 27-28,000ish. It appears no obturation is happening, but here is my head scratcher.

My brain is telling me to slow these down even more. The load of 31.5grs delivered a sub 1" group for 4 shots at 50 yards, where as the faster loads yielded poor accuracy.

What should I do here? Keep playing with 5744, slow these down to 1400fps, see what happens with the bore and go from there? Abandon 5744 altogether, step up to H322, and start pushing these guys faster and see if I can achieve obturation and stop the leading?

Thanks for the help.

[Winger Ed.]

Just a wild guess, but you might try a different lube.

In my Marlin CB .45/70 I size a fairly hard, gas checked, 420 gr. RCBS sized to .458,
and use the orange sticks Lyman sells for lube.
I forgot the weight, but I use IMR 4198 to get it to right at 1400 fps.

I haven't had a leading problem in mine.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Just a wild guess, but you might try a different lube.

In my Marlin CB .45/70 I size a gas checked 420 gr. RCBS to .458,
and use the orange sticks Lyman sells for lube.

I haven't had a leading problem in mine.

I'm not opposed to trying straight mule snot and seeing what happens. The 46-360M is a TL boolit.

[Hickory]

My first guess would be that your boolit material is too hard.
95% of my shooting is done with lead with a BHN no more that 14.

[tmanbuckhunter]

My first guess would be that your boolit material is too hard.
95% of my shooting is done with lead with a BHN no more that 14.

So push these harder/faster? I've run this alloy for almost 10 years now in many smaller bore applications, but with a gas check. First time I've had this issue with it. I could always sell it and get something softer.

[Larry Gibson]

Pushing that PB bullet, even of the harder alloy, pretty hard/fast for that lube with the shallow lube grooves. I also suggest First trying a different lube such as straight LLA (as per Lee's instructions) with two applications of lube (before and after sizing) letting it dry completely between applications.

Second, after trying a different lube first, I'd also suggest a bit slower burning powder than 5744 such as RL7 if you're going to push them hard/fast.

[megasupermagnum]

Take this with a grain of salt, but here are my two thoughts. First, you say guide gun, so am I correct to guess a Marlin? I know a lot on here who found the best thing with a micro groove Marlin was to go to a bigger than expected bullet. My second idea is you may just be at the limit for plain base velocity, although with an alloy that hard in a gun that should be relatively slow twist, who knows.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Pushing that PB bullet, even of the harder alloy, pretty hard/fast for that lube with the shallow lube grooves. I also suggest First trying a different lube such as straight LLA (as per Lee's instructions) with two applications of lube (before and after sizing) letting it dry completely between applications.

Second, after trying a different lube first, I'd also suggest a bit slower burning powder than 5744 such as RL7 if you're going to push them hard/fast.
Well, I'm not exactly looking for fast. I'm not opposed to slowing these down if some here think that may be the ticket. I'm also not opposed to buying some pure lead to add to the pot, although with a 20lb pot, I'm not sure how much lead to add to get down to wheel weight bhn levels. Math was never my strong point.

I just looked and I have no mule snot to be found. I will re-coat with 45/45/10 and see what happens.

Take this with a grain of salt, but here are my two thoughts. First, you say guide gun, so am I correct to guess a Marlin? I know a lot on here who found the best thing with a micro groove Marlin was to go to a bigger than expected bullet. My second idea is you may just be at the limit for plain base velocity, although with an alloy that hard in a gun that should be relatively slow twist, who knows.
1895 has had ballard rifling for a long time.

[Bird]

Been there, done that, with a different powder and a plain base bullet. I kept my velocities down to around 1400fps, and no more leading with best accuracy. Felt like enough oomph for me. Get a gas check bullet if you want more velocity, and you can drive that as fast as you can stand without scrubbing lead.
Is the extra 90fps you are trying for worth the headache?

[tmanbuckhunter]

Been there, done that, with a different powder and a plain base bullet. I kept my velocities down to around 1400fps, and no more leading with best accuracy. Felt like enough oomph for me. Get a gas check bullet if you want more velocity, and you can drive that as fast as you can stand without scrubbing lead.
Is the extra 90fps you are trying for worth the headache?
I was never trying to achieve the 90FPS. I simply went with a starting load in 1895/1886 pressure levels to see what would happen. 1400FPS was about where I wanted to be, but first shot out of the gate at 31.5 was 1472fps. I've shot almost nothing but 405gr. boolits at trapdoor levels out of this rifle with zero leading for quite some time now.

My calculations tell me 30.gr even should put me velocity wise right at 1400FPS, which would be 1500ft lbs of muzzle energy. More than enough.

[Bird]

It seems I was a little over presumptuous.
Yes, I would try 30.0gr of 5744. I just checked my data. I switched to a slower powder IMR4198 and a load of 34.5 grains which gave me good accuracy and no leading. I think that load was pushing 1500fps and around 22000psi.
I have suggested that load to others, but they feel that accuracy was not that good.

[Hickory]

If I have learned one thing in the craft of handloading it it this:
Don't be afraid to experiment.
What I mean is don't pull a set of components off the shelf, assemble them and expect it to work as you want or expect.
Murphy's law has a subsection, "If something goes wrong, than something ain't right."

[tmanbuckhunter]

If I have learned one thing in the craft of handloading it it this:
Don't be afraid to experiment.
What I mean is don't pull a set of components off the shelf, assemble them and expect it to work as you want or expect.
Murphy's law has a subsection, "If something goes wrong, than something ain't right."
Murphy's law applies to me at all times. I will say, after doing this for the last decade and doing it at an average of 500 rounds per month for the last 7 or 8 months, I'm not afraid to experiment. That's exactly what this is right now... an experimentation.

So here is my game plan, but there is a twist. I'm going to clean the bore, load up 20 more and work my way up to 1420fps and see what happens. Accuracy fell off as soon as we hit 1500FPS, so I'm confident my leading issue is at those speeds and above. Before I load another 20, I'm going to relube the boolits and HEAVILY. We will see what that gets us.

Now here is the twist. The supplier I get my alloy from has generously offered to allow me to exchange the 45 pounds of hardball I have, for 45 pounds of 1 to 16 alloy. I feel like this may be a good idea. 1 to 16 alloy would work much better in my 357 magnum at magnum level loads, would most certainly work fine in my 45/70 at the velocities I want to shoot at, and do just fine in my milsurps as well. When I started casting, I shot almost exclusively gas checked oversized boolits at moderate speeds (1400-1600fps) out of military surplus rifles. 1 to 16 with a gas check behind it should do just fine. I mean, Elmer Keith invented the 44 magnum on this alloy.

What do you guys think? Fair trade? Work out better?

[44Blam]

Sooo... I shoot a Marlin 1895 a lot. I shoot gas checked boolits from a NOE mold: 460-396-RF-AE2
I size to 460 and I powder coat my boolits.

I load those guys under a punchy load of Varget (52 grain). It pushes that pill at about 1850 fps. I have NO leading and that round is very accurate. I've been able to pick off 1-2' targets at 400 yards...

That load is stout, but less than shooting slugs in a shotgun. And WAAAAYYYY more accurate.

EDIT:
My alloy is 4:1 ww to lino... The BHN is in the 12-15 range...

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Tman -------------,

I am very lucky or there is some other factor going on here with your rifle/loads/bullets/lube, or???.

What do you consider leading?????? To me, leading is where there is lead attached to the bore that continues to build up and get thicker with continued shooting, NOT some light smears that never build up and are easily swabbed out with a few patches or maybe a brass brush stroke or two.

With my 45/70 I consider it to be normal to have some light streaking in the last couple of inches behind the muzzle, while some days there is not even that with the total bore being bright and shiny.

I use gas checks with my 45/70 and .44 mag loads. ZERO sign of leading not even streaks in my little RUGER 77/44 at velocities of 17 - 1900FPS. Bullets of .431 and .432 - Water quenched WW.

With the 45/70, I have tested a lot above 2000fps and as high as 2500fps with zero problems.

With my 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast, cast of 50/50 Wheel Weights/lead and water quenched, Then allowed to age a MINIMUM of 7 days before shooting, I have tested as high as the low 1900s with no problems. My go to hunting load is 1650fps.

I use the large meplat - Wide Flat Nose - and have NO need or interest in cast bullet expansion. Sure enough works for deer and elk! If the bullet expands, so be it, but with the large meplat, there is no need for it!

Using LBT (Lead Bullet Technology) soft blue lube in the .44 - handgun or rifle and White label "BAC" lube in the 45/70.

You DON'T need a softer alloy! My bullets are typically in the 20 to 24 BNH range both the 50/50 and the WW quenched alloy. DEADLY on deer and elk, of course as with all hunting, with proper shot placement.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[tmanbuckhunter]

Tman -------------,

I am very lucky or there is some other factor going on here with your rifle/loads/bullets/lube, or???.

What do you consider leading?????? To me, leading is where there is lead attached to the bore that continues to build up and get thicker with continued shooting, NOT some light smears that never build up and are easily swabbed out with a few patches or maybe a brass brush stroke or two.

With my 45/70 I consider it to be normal to have some light streaking in the last couple of inches behind the muzzle, while some days there is not even that with the total bore being bright and shiny.

I use gas checks with my 45/70 and .44 mag loads. ZERO sign of leading not even streaks in my little RUGER 77/44 at velocities of 17 - 1900FPS. Bullets of .431 and .432 - Water quenched WW.

With the 45/70, I have tested a lot above 2000fps and as high as 2500fps with zero problems.

With my 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast, cast of 50/50 Wheel Weights/lead and water quenched, Then allowed to age a MINIMUM of 7 days before shooting, I have tested as high as the low 1900s with no problems. My go to hunting load is 1650fps.

I use the large meplat - Wide Flat Nose - and have NO need or interest in cast bullet expansion. Sure enough works for deer and elk! If the bullet expands, so be it, but with the large meplat, there is no need for it!

Using LBT (Lead Bullet Technology) soft blue lube in the .44 - handgun or rifle and White label "BAC" lube in the 45/70.

You DON'T need a softer alloy! My bullets are typical in the 20 to 24 BNH range both the 50/50 and the WW quenched alloy. DEADLY on deer and elk, of course as with all hunting, with proper shot placement.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

Hey, nice to see you on here. I have a thread going in the 45-70 section on MO too.

To me leading is any noticeable trace of lead in the bore other than just ahead of the breech or light smears at the muzzle. I can see actual lead all thru out the bore on this one. I'm going to give it a quick clean this evening and see what happens. If it all comes out easy, I know it's not too big of a deal. I'm still going to re-lube, and slow these down a little to see what happens. Can't hurt anyways.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Sorry for the double post. Clean up was quick and effortless... a few passes with a bronze brush and the hoppes 9 soaked patches took care of the rest. Apparently it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. I'll check back with you dudes this weekend hurricane pending.

[Traffer]

Yup as other have said, My guess is Hard Lead + no gas check= no obturation AND gas cutting.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Yup as other have said, My guess is Hard Lead + no gas check= no obturation AND gas cutting.

We will see. If I still get leading after slowing them down we'll know what the answer is.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Well, it appears slowing things down a hair may have helped. Still some minor leading at the breech, but I don't seem to see any leading thru out the bore. I have not run a wet patch down it to let it sit, but I see noticeably less streaking at the muzzle. As easy as the last bit of fouling was to get out, I almost wonder if it was caked up bullet lube anyways. I'm very happy with the results though! I now have acquired everything I need to try powdercoating boolits except the PC. I will try this next.

Groups shot at 50 yards. Now that I have an established load I can dial it in at 100, although I should be close to where I need to be anyways. Thanks for the help dudes.
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