Any issues going back and forth between cast,and jacketed?

[Elroy]

I have no experience in the field of cast bullets,but Texas by God gave me a variety of some for my 30-30.I already have some jacketed 170s loaded up with different charge weights to test in a couple days,and I thought about slapping together a few of the cast as well.Will I need to start out on a freshly brushed barrel when switching to cast,or vice versa?..I have been looking at some old data for cast, and 4064 is probably what I will charge them with,because I don't have 3031 on hand. The data I am looking at seems to favor loads of 23-24 gr. 4064 for most weights of bullets from 115-180.Does this seem light?.All the bullets that Tex sent me have gas checks and fall into these weights..Thanks

[redhawk0]

Yep...my load data shows 23gr for 185gr....and 24.5gr for 140gr. For your 115s you should be ok at 25.5gr of that IMR4064.

Your always a bit lighter in powder weight for cast...and your velocity will be a bit lower. However, if its the right lead alloy your cast will expand as well as a jacketed bullet of the same weight at higher velocity.

redhawk

[Elroy]

Thanks.Redhawk.

[stubshaft]

You shouldn't have a problem going from cast to J words, but should clean out ALL traces of copper fouling when going the other way.

[Elroy]

Thanks Stub.,So I guess I should clean my gun,and start with the cast,and finish with jacketed.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Whether a rifle shoots better by cleaning after shooting jacketed is one of those 'MAYBE" questions. Over on the Cast Bullet Association site there was a discussion, experiment that led to a different conclusion. I have not found any particular differences shooting cast after jacketed, not after hundreds of rounds of jacketed, but 20-30 jacketed before cast may or MAY NOT affect group size. Impact is usually different due to other load differences, bullet weight, velocity... Another one of those 'gospels' that is not always true.

From cast to jacketed the first couple shots do not group due to the bullet lube, but after 2 or 3 jacketed are fired groups do settle.

Only your rifle can tell you, for either case.

[sghart3578]

Every time this question comes up I avoid answering. The reason? My own testing seems to violate the established guidelines.

I don't shoot a lot of jacketed any more but at one time I did. I would buy the Zero 158 gr JSP and 125 gr JHP in 500 count boxes.

I would shoot jacketed and cast through my guns interchangeably and not see any appreciable difference. I didn't clean between rounds or anything like that.

It could be that I am lucky. It could be that I am a crappy shot and couldn't tell the difference one way or another. It could be that I shoot mostly leverguns and I don't consider them MOA rifles so my expectations aren't as high to start with. It could be that I shoot mostly at steel swingers and I don't chase small groups on paper. A lot of "It could be's".

I stick mostly to cast now as my stock of jacketed bullets is nearly depleted.

Of course, YMMV.


Steve in N CA

[mdi]

I've read of some shooters that wouldn't even think of going from jacketed or cast (or vice-versa) without a thorough scrubbing. I have only shot one then the other a few times, mainly because I shoot cast bullets in my guns 95% of the time and rarely "compare" jacketed vs cast. For a name drop, Mike Venturino mentioned he does not do any extra cleaning between jacketed and cast...

[popper]

No, do it all the time.

[Winger Ed.]

I used to shoot both in .30-06 back when I deer hunted.

I'd shoot a few j boolits first to get the scope right for hunting.
Then switch to shooting a couple dozen cast for target practice.

The barrel was fresh and cool like it would be on a hunting trip.
Then, doing a bit to target practice with cast, the barrel being pre-warmed wasn't an issue.

I try not to over think this stuff, and that worked for me.


For a .30-30, keeping in mind it's speeds, range, and performance-
I'd burn up whatever J bullets I had, then switch to all cast after that.

[Elroy]

Thanks everybody. I loaded a few 115s,but had to seat them short 2.315".My 94 must have a short throat.These bullets are light,but are full diameter till almost the tip.The heavier bullets that T.B.G.gave me have more taper,and should not be an issue.These will cycle short,but want to scrape going in,so I may single load them.I have them on top of 25.5gr IMR4064.244779 I keep calling these 115s,but they are actually 113Lee bullets

[Elroy]

Do you think pressure will be an issue seated this deep?..Should I pull them,and reduce my charge weight a grain?..

[Larry Gibson]

sghart3578

"Every time this question comes up I avoid answering. The reason? My own testing seems to violate the established guidelines."

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger.......my testing on this topic, and many others, violates established guidelines also. Mike Venturino had an article published where his testing with milsurp rifles discerned no difference in accuracy. He caught a lot of guff because of that on this forum and I don't think he's posted here since. A recent test on the CBA forum also indicated little concern was needed when alternating between cast and jacketed bullets.

My testing over the years confirms the same with most rifles that do not foul badly with jacketed bullets lead the bore with cast bullets. I also have found that unless the rifle is a very accurate target model accuracy will remain consistent with either cast or jacketed when alternating. Pressure testing has also allayed fears of increased psi when shooting jacketed after cast.

[sghart3578]

..........

[Bazoo]

I switch between jacketed and cast and don't see any difference in my winchester 94 30-30 when shooting paper. I run most of my cast loads at full power and try to get similar trajectory as my favorite factory loads. My rifle shoots federal 170 grain factory about 2" high, then 31141 over 32.5grains 748 point of aim, then switch to 170 grain jacketed Remington CLHP the POI stays right in there, at 70 yards. I am probably lucky, but 30-30 is an easy and forgiving caliber. Long as my barrel stays cool I get something around 2" groups for 3 shots with sometimes 1.5 groups, but for 5 shots it opens up to 3+. Which ain't bad considering I ain't the best shot, and a winchester gets hot mighty fast.

[Elroy]

Thanks to you all..I have been reading up a little on them 113s,and it seems like it is common for model 94 to have feeding issues with them being required to be seated so deep for them.It seems that they are called a "soup can" bullet by many that use them.I am sure I will have fun with them.

[Petander]

I don't mix cast and j.

It's an old habit,I like to follow how the barrel / load / bullet / coating is doing when I'm cleaning the gun.

[Elroy]

I went out to the farm today,and got some shooting in,and it was a humbling, but educational experience. I am scope spoiled,and really need to work on my sight skills.I was going to shoot at 50yards,and then 100,but I decided to just shoot 5 shot groups all at a measured 75 yards in an effort to save components.I shot the 113s that T.B.G sent me first out of a freshly cleaned barrel,and aside from the firsy one being lower than the rest they did good,and would have did better with a better shooter.I then started shooting 5 each of Speer 150gr jacketed loaded with Leverevolution charged at 4 different weights from 36.5-37.6..I think either 36.5,or 37.3 shot best,but my shooting was not good enough to be sure.I caught my self wanting to cover my dot with the front sight bead a few times on the first few groups..I was shooting good enough to keep it in a deers vitals,but I need to do better.I was also surprised at how the cast bullets were so mild to shoot.I was going to shoot 5 more cast before I left,but decided not to because my barrel was pretty warm.244839244840244841

[Texas by God]

I mix bullet types at random and don’t clean in between. You’re doing good at 75 yards with issue sights. A receiver sight really improves a 94 in my experience. I drilled & tapped my pre 64 (horrors!) for a Williams 5D and then switched to a Redfield and have never regretted it. Later I had Jes rebore it to 38-55 (cast only) and I haven’t regretted that either. I still have a Marlin 30-30 and a bolt action 30-30 and I mix cast and jacketed in them a lot.

[Elroy]

I was probably worring for nothing,but I was afraid to shoot the last 5 of the 10 cast 113s I loaded that you gave me because my barrel was hot,and I thought it may cause leading.I dont know if it was the lighter charge,but they had a higher pitch crack to them,and no recoil that I noticed.

[dverna]

In my case, using iron sights (unless they are tang or peep sights) is a waste of time and resources for load development. I mount a scope for working up loads even if the gun will be used without a scope.

Age affects most of us and visual acuity was never good in my case even 30 years ago.

[arlon]

I don't mix lead/jacketed much but I don't do any special cleaning between shoots either. I think for the average duffer, there just isn't enough difference to worry about a touch of copper in the bore. Maybe if you were a top notch bench rest shooter and 1/4" makes a big difference, it might start to matter. SO I think the answer is that it probably does have an affect but not enough for 95% of us to notice.

[Elroy]

I have been looking at peep sights on Ebay.I also think it will be difficult to pinpoint which load shoots best using regular iron sights because shooter error,and luck plays a much bigger hand as opposed to using glass.I also look at it from the view that when hunting inside of 100 yards 2.5",or 3" is alright.Like I have stated in another post,I don’t necessarily chase velocity, but if two loads are about equal in the accuracy department, I will take the one that makes the most energy.

[Bazoo]

Elroy, I got the best accuracy out of my 31141 using 30. grains 748. But I got nearly the same with 32.5 so I went with that. Not because i got a touch more power, but because the trajectory matched factory ammo more closely. If I remember right, the 30 grain load was about 5 or 6 low. When I get my reloading area cleaned up again, im going to do some more testing and might settle on the 30 grain load, and just adjust the sight elevator between loads. Im figuring my gas check seating method has caused the occasional flyers and larger groups. After I shoot up what I have loaded, ill see about curing that problem and retest some.

When I shoot my 30-30, i take my 22 or a pistol, and shoot one group out of the 30-30 and let it cool while I shoot something else 15-20 minutes. Takes longer that way, but I get better results. At least I think I do.

[Elroy]

I knew I should let the barrel cool,and did a little,but just long enough to walk down,and change targets, and snap a picture.I bought a pound of 748,and did intend to use it,but I notice in Speers data that it should be good with the 70gr speer .224 that I shoot a lot of,so I picked up a pound of the Leverevolution. I will try some 748 next time.I also should practice shooting with iron sights.I guess even practicing with a 22 would be good.

[Bazoo]

One of the things I've noticed from my own use iron sights is that the sights on my post 64 winchester 94 were not great for repeatable accuracy. I changed the rear sight for a marbles semi buck, which gives a smaller notch to better match the front bead. Then I realized the white diamond was playing tricks on my eyes, so I reversed it. I do the best with black square top sights, but I've been able to make most irons work well for me. Another thing is the target, I've found I do best aiming at a cross or a square opposed to a round bullseye. I'm still experimenting with what works best for me though.

I've found if I do 3 shots, and then shoot something else and check my target, I can get 4-5 groups before I start getting too hot. 5 shot groups I can only get 2 or maybe 3 if I tarry.

[lotech]

I've never seen that copper fouling has any affect on accuracy degradation when using cast bullets. I suppose there are exceptions to everything; severe copper fouling in a neglected bore might be one of them. Same applies to shooting jacketed bullets after cast. Unless there is some bad leading, the shooter will likely never see an accuracy deterioration.

[Elroy]

Thanks to you all..I did try different colors and sizes of my targets,but I think I will try diferent styles and shapes.I kinda think a cross ,or even an upside down T with contrasting colors for the vertical, and horizontal line would be good if marked thick enough to see good at distance..My eyes get worse the more,and longer I look through iron sights.I can pick up a rifle,and quickly look thru the sights, and see fine the first time,but not as good the next.

[robg]

I've shot them both interchangeably not noticed any difference except different group places .more difference between 22rf bullets by different manufactures.

[trapper9260]

Whether a rifle shoots better by cleaning after shooting jacketed is one of those 'MAYBE" questions. Over on the Cast Bullet Association site there was a discussion, experiment that led to a different conclusion. I have not found any particular differences shooting cast after jacketed, not after hundreds of rounds of jacketed, but 20-30 jacketed before cast may or MAY NOT affect group size. Impact is usually different due to other load differences, bullet weight, velocity... Another one of those 'gospels' that is not always true.

From cast to jacketed the first couple shots do not group due to the bullet lube, but after 2 or 3 jacketed are fired groups do settle.

Only your rifle can tell you, for either case.

I was going to say about CBA also for there test. When I seen the topic. You also sum it up the best.

[kir_kenix]

Totally depends on the barrel, and in my experience, bore size. Most factory barrels are fairly rough and pick up some copper fouling. Most of mine seem to shoot lead over this minor copper fouling ok. Marlin micro groove barrels might be the worse offender for me.

Jacketed after lead is almost never a problem...except for throwing a few fliers until the lube accumulation dissipates. I don't think I've ever experienced leading being 'ironed' into the grooves like some have reported. But again I've never tried firing through a very heavily loaded bore, however.

All issues dramatically decrease for me once we get over .30 cal. Also, pistol barrels get shot with jacketed/cast/jacketed/etc with no problem.

[Elroy]

I seen a Williams receiver sight come up on Ebay a couple hours ago with a buy it now option,so I bought it.It was $50 ,and $3 something shipping.It is unopened from the description, and I could tell from the pictures it has the target knobs.The guy says he bought it for a rifle he once had,but never used. ..I assume the two closely spaced screws right in front of the hammer are for this sight.244920

[redhawk0]

I seen a Williams receiver sight come up on Ebay a couple hours ago with a buy it now option,so I bought it.It was $50 ,and $3 something shipping.It is unopened from the description, and I could tell from the pictures it has the target knobs.The guy says he bought it for a rifle he once had,but never used. ..I assume the two closely spaced screws right in front of the hammer are for this sight.244920


That's correct....good find.

redhawk

[Tom W.]

I have my 30-06 A.I. sighted in with Varget and 180 gr. Sierra GameKings to shoot 2' high @ 100 yards, as that is the farthest the range has. I can shoot a 165 Ranch Dog cast and gas checked boolit with a lighter load and the rifle will hit low, and with the Lee 160 gr it will hit differently. As for changing from cast to jacketed I've never had any problems. I suppose if I used Sweets copper remover or something that can eat my bore up with little or no hesitation there might be an issue, but I don't.
If the cast boolit fits well like a .309 or .310 diameter and has good lube you should have no issues with leading.

[Elroy]

I looked at Ebay to see if my sight shipped,and it has,but the more I look at the picture of it the more I worry that it's not complete.The guy has a 100% good rating but only 49 sales.He claims the package is unopened,but to me it looks like the stationary piece that mounts to the receiver is not in the package,and I onlt see one screw. What do you all think?244965244966

[Texas by God]

Now you're cooking with gas! Try a plain old paper plate for iron sight targets. Just like a peep sight, your eye will find the center. Cheap, too. The sight looks complete to me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Elroy]

I think they are complete after all. I messaged the seller,and he reassured me they were.I think it's just the angle of them in the packaging.I seen a 94 on the computer with this same sight,and I think the target knobs may be a mistake.the windage knob sticks way out on the side with the loading gate.I may end up changing them,and after thinking about it I don't understand what the point of having them if that "gib screw" has to be loosened,and tightened with a screwdriver to make elevation changes.I have a 30-06 with a similar sight,and hope to do a switch-a-roo.