Any reason NOT to water quench?

[8mmFan]

As posted just now in another thread, I have water-quenched almost every bullet I’ve ever cast. Is there any reason not to?

Thanks,

8mmFan

[El Bibliotecario]

I cast several bullets which shoot more accurately than I can shoot and which leave absolutely no leading. In those cases I don't see what I would gain.

Having said that, I have read discussion on obturation v. hardness. I hope someone with experience addresses water quenching in the light of that issue.

[Hossfly]

I water drop so I can handle quicker. That’s straight COWW and it does make them harder if that’s what you want, also doesn’t leave any marks on the boolit. You just have to dry out if your going to PC them. Now if you want softer for slower speed like 800 FPS you may choose to just air cool, for obturation.

[8mmFan]

Got it, Hossfly. That makes sense. I am starting to fool around with a lot of “cat’s sneeze” loads in the 30-06, 8x57, and 7x57. Maybe with those I should start thinking about air cooled drops. All of those loads do get a gas check. Thanks for the responses, guys.

[Larry Gibson]

With true "cat's sneeze" loads (the original name for such loads as "mouse fart") you want a soft alloy as the harder the alloy is the faster (more pressure) required to keep the bullet from sticking in the barrel. You might cut your COWW alloy 50/50 with lead and definitely let the bullets air cool and age (7-10 days) before use.

[8mmFan]

Just to be clear, Larry - re-size them almost immediately, and THEN let them age 7-10 days before shooting? Or let them age 7-10 days, THEN re-size?

The only reason I’m asking for clarification is that I did see somewhere that boolits expand and get much harder with age. And that’s a whole other subject - I’m still trying to wrap my head around the fact that I’ve got a few hundred loaded cartridges for a couple of calibers from 10 years ago. If they’ve expanded and hardened, I suppose they could theoretically be tougher to chamber.

Thanks for all the help guys.

8mmFan

[MT Gianni]

For me unquenched ww tend to shoot best up to 1800 fps at most. The transition might be around 1600. A lot depends on your shooting. I see little need to wait to cast on a day that I have to find time to size as well. It's much easier to size a week later without worrying about wiping off hardness.

[popper]

The alloy can expand and make the dia larger, usually 0.0005 or less. Try some AC and see if target results are OK. You can size whenever - note - soft alloy doesn't spring back much so check the final dia. Just drop on a damp cotton towel vs into water. Slow low pressure loads don't always need a GC. Light load of unique and you might save 3 cents apeice.

[jsizemore]

I handle my just cast bullets within 15 minutes of my last cast. How long does it take for them to dry from water quenching? I tried water quench when I first started casting and didn't like waiting for them to dry or adding another step to the whole process. Harder bullets require more powder to obturate. More pressure means more powder. I've taken up HT coating my 9mm cast bullets. Any contamination of the bullets surface causes problems. I can't imagine water quenching helping that situation. I have no experience with it though.

[Texas by God]

I don't water quench my boolits at all. I use straight COWW if I want a hard boolit and 50/50 coww/lead if I don't. But then the fastest I've ever pushed cast is 2000 fps in .358 Win and 8x57mm. I use LLA and PC depending on my mood and I've avoided leading so far. I size them with Lee push thru dies.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Larry Gibson]

let them age 7-10 days, THEN re-size

That's my suggestion.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Theoretically,
One thing to worry about with water dropping boolits from the mold, would be hardness consistency in a batch, because as you cast, the water warms up, the boolits won't be cooling as fast in warmer water. I've never investigated this, so maybe the potential variation won't be enough to worry about? especially for pistol, but I would think for the best groups when shooting rifle, you would want to most consistent hardness, boolit to boolit, as possible.
That's my 2¢

[gnostic]

I'm casting pure range scrap and water quenching, with great results. Years ago it was easier to find WW or linotype. The last bucket of wheel weights I cast, were about 20% lead with lots of steel and I'm guessing zink. For the type of shooting I do, USPSA and steel plates, water dropped range scrap works great. I think it depends on the quality of the alloy you're casting, the days of linotype and wheel weights are long past for me. That said, water quenching is a must...

[RED BEAR]

It depends on the gun and bullet i plan to shoot. Some of my guns just shoot better with softer bullets mostly my handguns and lower velocity. Some but not all my rifles shoot better with harder bullets. I try to feed them what they like. Sometimes it takes a while to figure out what that is. Anyway i do both depending.

[Winger Ed.]

I do it because for me, its faster.
When I first got into casting, the rage was tempering or hardening your boolits..... like powder coating is now.

Back then, you had to cast them, drop on a dry towel, then heat a oven hot enough for one to 'slump'.
Back off the temp. so many degrees, then stand them all up on a sheet, and bake them for so long.
Only then, could you dump them in a pan of water for the correct amount of hardening.

I figured dropping them out of the mold into a 5 gal. bucket of water on the floor behind me
would get me to the same place for the correct hardness.
With the bucket behind me, there was no danger of splashing water getting into the pot.

As for sizing, I did it when I got around to it a few days later.

[tazman]

The only reason I can think of NOT to water drop is if you want soft bullets that will expand on impact.
All my firearms work perfectly well with water dropped, correctly sized, and lubed boolits.
I cast range scrap in a confined area on a small table top and drop into a tupperware bowl half full of water that is below the surface of the table. When done casting, I place the boolits on a towel and roll them around a couple of times and put a fan on them for a few minutes. In the mean time, I set up my sizer and then get to work sizing and lubing the boolits. If I wait even a couple of days, the boolits harden enough they become difficult to size with the Lyman 4500. In that case I will run them through my Lee push through first.
Works fine for me.
For my uses, which is all currently handgun, water dropped linotype doesn't work any better than the range scrap I use. Occasionally I will get a particularly soft batch of lead and will "sweeten" the mixture with a little linotype.

[brewer12345]

Huh, interesting to see the difference in what we all do. I have never bothered to water drop anything. I run AC COWW up to 1900 FPS without a lot of fuss, although I do see accuracy dropping off as I approach the upper end of speed. For pistol bullets (38, 45 ACP, etc.) I use almost anything (range scrap, shielding, COWW) and get good accuracy without water dropping. I have recently switched to powder coating and I wonder if the baking negates the water drop. If you dropped from the powder coating oven into water would you get water-dropped hardness?

For someone like me, what would be the advantages of water dropping my boolits?

[JBinMN]

I only water drop when I want boolits to be harder for particular reasons. Mainly rifle boolits.

Most of the time I do not water drop. Particularly for revolvers & semi auto pistols.

I use 50/50 PB/COWW, sometimes 60/40 or even 70/30 PB/COWW air cooled on a damp towel/flannel for most all handguns. I usually go a bit harder for when pushing 44 mag..
For Rifle like .223/5.56, .308, or 30-06, I usually use COWW water dropped or even add some "type metal" as well.

I have not had any problems/issues doing things the way I do. YMMV, of course.

I reckon if someone is not having problems/issues with how ever they are doing things, then do not try to fix something that works for you. Just because everyone else does something different than I do, does not mean I have to change what "works for me".

I "walk my own path, & not every one else path.", I reckon. That sort of thinking has been working for me, anyway.
;)

G'Luck! & Be safe.

[8mmFan]

Yes, as someone above said - it’s kind of funny how many people there are that do it all differently.

I have no idea what the hardness of my bullets is; I wish I did. I have the LEE hardness tester but I don’t know how accurate that is. I couldn’t duplicate any of my alloys for the simple reason that I toss in whatever I have at hand at the time, just adding it to whatever was in the pot before.

The reason that I have always water quenched is that somewhere way back when I started casting I read that a harder rifle bullet is generally going to perform better. Since then I have learned that there is a lot more to it than that, but the habit of water quenching stuck.

I keep a rusty old water-filled bread pan on the ground by my feet. It invariably has a cloth on the bottom to absorb a little impact after the bullets have traveled down through the water. I just empty the mold into that.

It would be great to figure out, sometime, how hard my bullets are. I haven’t observed any “leading”, although I’ve never really actually looked. The one time that I DO know that I had it was when I was shooting a SIG P220 with some of my very first cast bullets way back when. There were “slivers” of lead in the barrel, starting about two thirds of the way up the 5” barrel and occuring all the way to the muzzle.

I just shot them out with a jacketed bullet. Never observed it since.

8mmFan

[RED BEAR]

8mmfan if you have a lee tester its pretty easy to figure out. Thats what i use but can't use the microscope that came with it. I scan onto my computer using highest resolution then use a free program like gimp ( i am cheap ) to measure the dent easy to do. If your not sure how to do this just ask a kid thats what i did.
Now as far as your results not repeating i believe you if you just put what ever in the pot as you need it you are changing the alloy every time. I usually make two alloys one hard one soft. I melt in a good size pot make allows from that when i am through with the pot i do it again. After i have enough of that allow to do me i melt it again mixing up the different pots after about 4 or so times i figure it should be the same. I wish i had a big enough pot to just put everything in at once. Once i have my two different alloys i can tweek them as needed. Any left over in pot after casting goes into old coffee container and labeled so i don't change my alloy.
I would like to take credit for scanning bullets to measure dent but someone else on site came up with it just wish i dismembered who so i could give him cred it works great.

[Dusty Bannister]

I have been a bullet caster for sufficient time that I have set back a variety of different alloys. Seldom will I oven HT/Q since I generally have the hardness I am seeking in and air cooled alloy. But there are times that it is beneficial to work with something a bit harder and I am pretty careful with my remaining linotype supply.

For me, it is not necessary to create a harder bullet by quenching. Even at that, I would prefer to NOT quench from the mold. I have never had a steam splatter when casting, and I prefer to keep it that way.

For those that do not have the necessary alloys to create the hard air cooled bullets, it is not really optional, so I have no problem with HT/Q or even quenching from the mold. These methods may be the only way to get hard bullets in years to come, so keep learning from others different ways to keep shooting.

[ole_270]

For the loads I run the most I tend to use softer alloys. I've had no trouble with 12 Bhn up to 1600 fps. The only thing I quench is 308 loads over 2000 fps. These are a 1.4%Sn, 2.9%Sb alloy and get quenched when they come out of the PC oven and are working up to 2450 fps.
One question, long ago I read that quenched, softer alloys hold the rifling nearly as well as harder alloys, but mushroom as well as if air cooled. I haven't seen any testing or really any comments on this in quite a while. Was this just rumor. or is there anything to it?

[jsizemore]

I've been casting for quite a while. I see folks saying they have problems with damaged bullets when they're dropped to air cool. Don't know that's ever been a problem for me. I cast at a fairly leisurely pace of 2 fill and drops per minute in a 4 cavity iron mold. The sprues are cut and not torn out and no smear of lead across the mold top or sprue plate. The mold tells me what it wants. I then ram the bullets through a sizer. But are they accurate? Got my Grand Slam in silhouette shooting lead I cast. Shot nothing but master scores over a 5 year period shooting AC COWW bullets.

My drop pad is an old cotton bed sheet for a base with an old cotton towel on top of that. Measures 27"x 16" x .75". I don't drop the bullets on the pile that I push to the end as I go. They hit each other and the towel when they drop from the mold. Can't see where water quenching solves a problem that doesn't exist with a little care. 8 bullets a minute is probably too slow for most folks but the results are worth it.

[tazman]

Nothing is really etched in stone with this process. There are nearly as many ways to do this as there are people doing it.
All work well enough that the people using boolits are satisfied with the results.
If they aren't, they will try something else. Each gun will tell you if it likes your methods. Listen to your weapons.

[DougGuy]

I look at it this way. There are a LOT of us on this board that shoot Ruger revolvers. The profile of the rifling lends itself to VERY good performance out of air cooled 50/50+2% and soft lube. This alloy works well with gas checks also. I have better obturation, as close to zero leading as you will get, and never need to clean a barrel, and if I do the patch comes out dark with powder and lube residue. We also call this a "black bore" where this residue serves to "season" the bore between shots, as it lubes the front half of the boolit as it travels.

I don't see where changing the alloy to straight coww makes this combo any better, it makes throat dimensions more critical, it will promote leading if all is not sized to match correctly, I would suspect that water quenching would only lessen performance as it would lessen obturation.

Maybe water quenching might improve in max loads for 475, 480, and 500 calibers but for conventional 36kpsi magnum level and below power, I don't think it would help.

[am44mag]

Theoretically,
One thing to worry about with water dropping boolits from the mold, would be hardness consistency in a batch, because as you cast, the water warms up, the boolits won't be cooling as fast in warmer water. I've never investigated this, so maybe the potential variation won't be enough to worry about? especially for pistol, but I would think for the best groups when shooting rifle, you would want to most consistent hardness, boolit to boolit, as possible.
That's my 2¢

I've never been able to cast fast enough to raise the water temp much. Maybe a few degrees, though my container is big enough that it holds more water than I need. Even with a Lee 6 banger in 9mm and casting 500 boolits, the water got slightly warmer than room temp. I doubt any potential inconsistencies caused by the slightly warmer water would be enough to notice. Maybe if would make a difference if you were casting precision bullets meant to be shot at 500-1000 yards, but for pistol and short range rifle, I don't seen it being an issue.

[mdi]

I always looked at this question from the other side; "why would I want to water quench?". I started casting in an area without water near by (out in the shed and I'd have to bring water in) and didn't like the mess. If I wanted hard bullets (which I never did) I'd just add some hard lead to my alloy (easier to control hardness). I have never burned myself on freshly cast bullets (I did one time. One of the very first "perfect" bullets I cast made me so excited I picked it up about 15 seconds after it dropped from the mold. First and last time). So, why drop my bullets in a pail of water?

[RED BEAR]

I have been a bullet caster for sufficient time that I have set back a variety of different alloys. Seldom will I oven HT/Q since I generally have the hardness I am seeking in and air cooled alloy. But there are times that it is beneficial to work with something a bit harder and I am pretty careful with my remaining linotype supply.

For me, it is not necessary to create a harder bullet by quenching. Even at that, I would prefer to NOT quench from the mold. I have never had a steam splatter when casting, and I prefer to keep it that way.

For those that do not have the necessary alloys to create the hard air cooled bullets, it is not really optional, so I have no problem with HT/Q or even quenching from the mold. These methods may be the only way to get hard bullets in years to come, so keep learning from others different ways to keep shooting.
The worst burn i got came from steam in the mold didn't wear gloves on my pour hand only on mold hand when it steamed as i started to pour lead it startled me and i spilt a ladle full of lead over the back of my hand.

[Demeter’s_Workshop]

The amount of hardening provided by a quick dunk in water while hot isn't significant for soft or pure lead. Its more for faster handling and no surprise "ouch thats hot still" but comes with its own added opposites like steam burns / splashes. Not really worth it depending on where your casting, its convenience more than anything. If you want harder bullets, you need to add more antimony. Hardening is more significant with higher antimony alloys, So in some cases you would not want to quench.

[Larry Gibson]

I've been water quenching cast bullets from the mould directly into water for many, many years. Never had a single problem because I read how to do it correctly and followed the instructions. The mould should be at temp (that means the sucker is skillet hot) when casting. Any water that may get splashed onto the mould is sputtered/sizzled off immediately. It will not sit there in the cavity and "steam". If it does two things are being done wrong; the mould is not to temp and the mould is held too close to the water.

Proper WQing from the mould to achieve a consistent level of BHN increase requires the mould/alloy be very hot (I cast at 710 - 725 degrees) and the bullet be dropped from the mould as soon as the sprue hardens. Bullets should not be dropped into water until the mould is to temp and is casting good bullets. The bullet solidifies and cools very quickly and must be dropped into the water as quickly as it can be. The mould is still very hot and, as mentioned, any water that may splash onto it will sputter/sizzle off well before you can even close the mould........

However, there are always those who can't do things correctly and they should avoid WQing if they can't do it correctly. There are many things hazardous and potentially dangerous in casting bullets. Each must make a decision, based on your own abilities, as to what you should or should not do.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I've been water quenching cast bullets from the mould directly into water for many, many years. Never had a single problem because I read how to do it correctly and followed the instructions. The mould should be at temp (that means the sucker is skillet hot) when casting. Any water that may get splashed onto the mould is sputtered/sizzled off immediately. It will not sit there in the cavity and "steam". If it does two things are being done wrong; the mould is not to temp and the mould is held too close to the water.

Proper WQing from the mould to achieve a consistent level of BHN increase requires the mould/alloy be very hot (I cast at 710 - 725 degrees) and the bullet be dropped from the mould as soon as the sprue hardens. Bullets should not be dropped into water until the mould is to temp and is casting good bullets. The bullet solidifies and cools very quickly and must be dropped into the water as quickly as it can be. The mould is still very hot and, as mentioned, any water that may splash onto it will sputter/sizzle off well before you can even close the mould........

However, there are always those who can't do things correctly and they should avoid WQing if they can't do it correctly. There are many things hazardous and potentially dangerous in casting bullets. Each must make a decision, based on your own abilities, as to what you should or should not do.

Thank you Larry that is my exact experience. I have even experimented by splashing a little water in my furnace and have never had hot lead explode out of the pot. Like you said a little water in a hot mold will be gone before you can even get it closed for the next pore.

[poppy42]

I water quench all my cast boolets. I find it quicker and easier. And the extra hardness I get is an added plus as far as I’m concerned

[RED BEAR]

Larry not trying to get you going but the worst burn i got was from water in my mold cavity that blew the lead back out as i started to pour startled me and spilt a ladle full of lead over my hand. Mold was up to heat as had already cast couple hundred rounds. But as you state i was probably to close to the water . And this allowed a large amount of water into cavity. I just always figured it would instantly burn off. But it didn't. I will say that since i am a lot more careful lately have not had another problem. I wish i had read your post about staying far enough from the water before i did this.

[Larry Gibson]

RED BEAR

We all make mistakes, it's sometimes how we learn. I've made my share of them......:cry:

[William Yanda]

Do you shoot rifle exclusively?

[8mmFan]

Red Bear, you’ve motivated me to dig out that LEE hardness tester and give it a go, again. I also like the idea of melting ALL the lead I’ve got into one big amalgamated mash, and just using it all together. It probably would make more consistent pours...the alloy would be the same, anyway. Only two problems with that: I don’t have nearly a big enough melter to do it, and I wouldn’t want to toss my stash of linotype away like that.

Larry, not because I designed it that way, but just because it’s happened that way, the method you’re talking about for water quenching is pretty much how I do it. I have the “temperature gauge” or whatever it is on my LEE 4-20 set at between 7 and 8. Not because I arrived at that being the best setting for my purposes - but because that’s where I’ve been able to melt all variations of my lead. I am a lead scavenger - I get it where I can. I had a wrestling-dad buddy give me a bunch one time. Some came from eBay, etc. Over the years some of it has proven darn hard to melt - but between 7 and 8 on the LEE 4-20 melts it all.

When I drop the bullets into the mold, I’m normally sitting in a chair and the water is on the floor. I just lean down and drop in the water-filled old bread pan. Sometimes water does jump up on the mold. When I say that I mean maybe a droplet or to. It steams off so fast it’s gone before I sit back up in my chair, or before the mold is even closed. I’m definitely not dunking the mold in the water.

William Yanda - It’s a mix. I absolutely HATE paying for factory ammunition, so I pretty much only shoot reloads. With the cost of cast vs. factory, I can shoot pistol a lot cheaper with cast as everybody here knows. So a lot of my casting is for pistol, both 9 and 45. I also really, really like to shoot cast in my rifles too, though, particularly very low power, comfortable-to-shoot loads. So a lot of our casting is for rifle, too. When we cast, we just keep two or three molds going: run a few with a two-cavity 8mm mold, say, and then a few with a six-cavity 9. It just depends on what we’re short of, and what we feel like. So the same alloy will go into a 9mm bullet, and then into a 7mm soupcan. Not very scientific, for sure, but then I’m just casting to shoot cheap and shoot a lot, not for super-long-distance precision. For that (insofar as I can achieve that even then) I shoot jacketed bullets. With a wife, a bunch of kids, and a job and other commitments I just don’t have the time yet to be more precise than I am with cast bullet alloys, for now. I hope to, someday, but there are some other things ahead of that on “the list.”

Let me say, again, that I really appreciate each and every comment here. I’ve said it before and I say it again, I learn something new and valuable every time I come to CastBoolits. Without you guys I’d be a lot farther behind on shooting cast, for sure.

8mmFan

[Lloyd Smale]

I say if you don't mind the work it wont hurt a thing. I can count on the fingers of one hand the times ive had a gun that has shot better with softer alloys then it did harder alloys and that's at any velocity. The times it went the other way are with guns that had sloppy dimensions. Chambers to tight, barrels to big ect .

[RED BEAR]

8mmfan i don't have a very big pot either. Thats why i mix the ingots and melt more than once. I use a $10 hot plate and a ss pot from the dollar store . Hot plate will not get my cast pot hot enough to melt lead. But ss pot works great. I would love to get a better setup so more could be done at once. I make up two different types a soft mix and a mix of mostly wheel weights i add a little tin to both but only because i have it. Then if i want something a little harder you can add your linotype as needed. Just rember to keep left over seperate so you don't change alloy and you can use it next time you need that mix. I ended up with two large buckets of my main mixes and about 4 coffee cans of left overs.

[fredj338]

If your alloy has no antimony in it, water quenching isn't giving you anything. I just don't find it convenient for general pistol bullets. I don't need a hard bullet to run 45acp or 9/40 minor loads. I also now PC so water dropping then baking @ 400 for 13-14m seems pointless.

[ShooterAZ]

I tend to blend my alloys to the hardness I want it to be. Lino is a wonderful alloy for doing just that. Most, it not all my cast boolit shooting is done with softer alloys anyway. Typically no harder than BHN 15.

[Gatch]

I've been quenching everything I've cast but only out of convenience of handling.

Re water on a hot mold, if the molds hot enough, the leidenfrost effect prevents splashes of water from boiling off. Unless you submerge a mold completely in water, most likely any water will tip off the side before it actually boils.

[RED BEAR]

Yea the one that got me water in mold cavity went to pour and lead shot back out of cavity . I really did think it would just boil off. Well i was wrong.

[tazman]

I've been quenching everything I've cast but only out of convenience of handling.

Re water on a hot mold, if the molds hot enough, the leidenfrost effect prevents splashes of water from boiling off. Unless you submerge a mold completely in water, most likely any water will tip off the side before it actually boils.

I have had that happen exactly once during the 40+ years I have been water dropping boolits. I was using a bottom pour pot at the time and didn't get burned, just surprised.

[bangerjim]

I water quench everything..........JUST to cool them off! I never have rely on water-developed hardness in any alloy. I mix my alloy for the hardness I want.

And.....I then powder coat everything so I really don't worry about hardness much any more. 10-12 for just about 90% of what I cast and shoot.

banger

[glaciers]

I'm surprised at how many folks here are WQing boolits dropped into a open pan. I had my first surprise when dropping COWW into the hot pot to add to the melt. There was a drop or two of water on them someplace and the resulting explosion was enough to scare me and gave me a couple of minor burns from droplets above my gloves. That made me very paranoid, and extremely careful not to take a chance again of ANY water getting near the melt.
The second time was when adding saw dust for flux, could not have been more than a very small mount of water in the saw dust. Added it in and as it was burning down I had turned away, and pow, splashed molten lead out of the pot. Not much, and not far of coarse. But I felt lucky, that saw dust was under the bench for a year or more in a open box. Interior Alaska is a very dry.
Anyway when I water quench, I drop into a 5 gallon bucket on the floor and 90* left or right from the stool I'm sitting on.. But I only put about 3 gallons of water in and place a towel around the top held on with a bungee cord. The towel is loose hanging a couple of inches and a hole about the size of a half dollar in the center allows the bullets to drop through. No water splashing on anything.

[1bluehorse]

All interesting thoughts and ideas about bullet hardness. I recall watching a video of Bob Munden where he was "showin' his stuff". During the video he mentioned he was using 250gr. Lazer Cast bullets (which are about 21BHN with some kind of hard blue lube), I've shot many of them, and 7 1/2 grains of Unique. I have no idea if this was his "go to" load for his 45 Colt or it was just this particular "episode". HE seemed to do quite well with them although he was just shooting targets and fast draw stuff but he was an impressive shooter. I also think if there was any significant leading involved he wouldn't have been using them for the amount of shooting he must have done to be at that level of expertise. My revolvers have all been "diminsioned" for shooting cast and they've all been fire lapped. I see no difference in use for target or general shooting between 11-12 bhn or water quenched at 18 or higher. For a specific use such as hunting with rifle and handgun and looking for expansion in the bullet then that may be a different issue. For just shootin' stuff probably not.

[gloob]

I understand the hardness goes up over a week or so. But over a longer stretch of time, the hardness drops, again, quite a bit.

Whereas if you optimize hardness by alloying your lead, the hardness doesn't vary with time to that order of magnitude.

And, of course, harder isn't always better.

[ioon44]

I agree with what gloob has posted and I found water dropping to be an unnecessary step for my uses.

[tazman]

As shown by all the differing opinions, there will be no consensus on this topic. People do things differently with what appear to be equal success. This just proves there is no single set way to get where you want to go.
Do what works for you and your gun and enjoy the process.

[gwpercle]

My reasons not to quench ....
1.) Safety , don't like having water around my pot.
2.) I size my cast boolits . Hardened boolits are harder to size , saves wear, tear and damage to lube/sizer .
3.) Sizing a water hardened boolit cold works the surface...which softens it .
4.) I can wait for them to cool
5.) Hard boolits are way way over rated by the "experts" . Softer , properly fitting boolits work much better in most cases .

It's your cat and how you skin it is up to you , no right or wrong way...just get the hide off !
Gary

[porthos]

my aloy is 18-20 bhn. have been shooting them at 1600 to around 2100 fps; no leading. why would i want to water quench? thats why.

[bangerjim]

my aloy is 18-20 bhn. have been shooting them at 1600 to around 2100 fps; no leading. why would i want to water quench? thats why.

No reason a t all. Sounds like you are doing the right way......... like I do........mix your alloys for the hardness you want!

banger

[David2011]

I'm surprised at how many folks here are WQing boolits dropped into a open pan. I had my first surprise when dropping COWW into the hot pot to add to the melt. There was a drop or two of water on them someplace and the resulting explosion was enough to scare me and gave me a couple of minor burns from droplets above my gloves. That made me very paranoid, and extremely careful not to take a chance again of ANY water getting near the melt.
The second time was when adding saw dust for flux, could not have been more than a very small mount of water in the saw dust. Added it in and as it was burning down I had turned away, and pow, splashed molten lead out of the pot. Not much, and not far of coarse. But I felt lucky, that saw dust was under the bench for a year or more in a open box. Interior Alaska is a very dry.
Anyway when I water quench, I drop into a 5 gallon bucket on the floor and 90* left or right from the stool I'm sitting on.. But I only put about 3 gallons of water in and place a towel around the top held on with a bungee cord. The towel is loose hanging a couple of inches and a hole about the size of a half dollar in the center allows the bullets to drop through. No water splashing on anything.

Dropping COWW into melted lead (bad idea, btw) is very different from dropping boolits into water. COWW can get water between the steel clip and the lead WW. It is hard to get rid of that water. Dropping cold (100° is still cold) WW into a substantial mass of 650° or hotter molten lead will turn that moisture into steam almost instantly. When you drop a boolit into water you're dropping a comparatively small mass of 450°-500° lead into a much greater mass of water. The small mass of hot lead can't heat the large mass of water enough to cause a steam explosion so they are two very different situations.

The best way is to put the WW into a cool pot and then turn the heat on. By the time the WW start melting the batch will be well above the boiling point of any trapped water so the WW are very dry by the time they start melting.

When you flux with sawdust, let the sawdust char to at least a toasted brown before stirring it into the melt. The moisture will be driven out of the sawdust and you won't get a warning or visit from the tinsel fairy. I felt some "bumping" once as I stirred sawdust into the melt and have let it toast before stirring ever since.

[Walks]

I've been water quenching for over fifty yrs.
My DAD was doing it before I was born, 66+yrs ago.

The only things I don't W/Q are pure lead RB & Minie's for MuzzleLoaders.
And 20/1 for Hollow Points and BlackPowder Loads.

I've fired 35,000+ Lyman #358156GC over max 2400. Cast of Straight Linotype and Water Quenched. Shot in just one NM BlackHawk, the first year I owned it.
Same with the #429244 & #429215 in .44Mag OM Blackhawk, NM SBH & Redhawk & SRH, S&W 29 and T/C bbls, both 10" &14".
And the #452490 in .454Casull Loads. Even a few loaded hot for a NM Bisley in .45Colt.

I've never had leading in any of these Revolvers.
But all have been worked over to ream forcing cones and chamber mouths. My DAD taught me about that before I was 10yrs old.

I've got 300 or so rounds of that hot .357 Load in new Midway Head-Stamped Brass, still sitting on the shelf from 1989. They will still "plunk" into every .357Mag Revolver and my T/C bbl, no problem.

When I first read this thread, I went out and pulled a few #358156 and #452490 from loaded ammo and a box of #31141 to check hardness with my Saeco Lead Hardness Tester. They all measured 10+, a max on the scale.
The first I've ever heard of W/Q bullets growing in hardness over time or losing hardness over time, was on this website.

Every time I read something like this, I wonder what I'm doing different then everyone else.

Never had a "incident" with water and hot lead. My pots are clamped on to a picnic table with a full size cake sheet pan in between. The five gallon bucket is between my feet slightly under the table. Filled with 3 gallons of water. My Hot Plate has 1 lb ingots on it 350degrees. They hang over the edge or "stand" up in the center. Easier to grab with channel locks.

I cast from at least 3-4 molds at a time. 2-6cav. So if I didn't drop the bullets into a water bucket, I'd spend to much time making room to drop air-cooled bullets.

It's whats works for me.

[Hickory]

Water quenching is not ideal for long term storage, over time the boolits will soften up and the hardness factor will be lost.

[Lloyd Smale]

I wont argue using the alloy that gives the hardness you want. Other then cost. Linotype is tough to find anymore and expensive. Back in the day when I could get it about free and had hundreds of lbs of it I didnt water drop either. But when I have to pay 2 bucks a lb for linotype (and usually shipping because there just isn't any around here anymore) and can still get ww for free, water dropping just makes more sense as time goes by.
No reason a t all. Sounds like you are doing the right way......... like I do........mix your alloys for the hardness you want!

banger

[Lloyd Smale]

My reasons not to quench ....
1.) Safety , don't like having water around my pot.
2.) I size my cast boolits . Hardened boolits are harder to size , saves wear, tear and damage to lube/sizer .
3.) Sizing a water hardened boolit cold works the surface...which softens it .
4.) I can wait for them to cool
5.) Hard boolits are way way over rated by the "experts" . Softer , properly fitting boolits work much better in most cases .

It's your cat and how you skin it is up to you , no right or wrong way...just get the hide off !
Gary

1 a cast bullet dropped into a bucket of water on the floor doesn't react like dumping water in your pot. Ive been doing it for 30 years and never had the tinsel fairy visit because of water dropping. Now I wont say shes never visited though, just not from water dropping.
2 No harder to size a water dropped bullet then a linotype bullet. Now if your trying to push a 4570 bullet through a 45 colt size die I can see it. But id bet my star has seen a half a million water dropped bullets in the last 30 years.
3 Its been proven that water dropping hardens the bullet all the way through not just on the surface and the small amount of working of the surface does about nothing to hardness. If you doubt it put a water dropped bullet on your hardness tester and test the side for hardness. then run it through your sizer and test it again. You will not see a change.
4 I agree with you there. It probably takes longer to wait for bullets to dry then it does to wait till they cool.
5 Not a chance. For your own benefit do a test. Take a good 1911 or a 38 smith or some other gun that's proven accurate and cast bullets out of varying alloys and you will about allways see better accuracy with hard bullets. If it wasn't true and softer was better wed all be using pure and jacketed bullet would shoot like crap and fact is what were doing is chasing jacketed performance for less money. Might have been the case with early guns like the saa colts and early DA revolvers and even some cheap out of spec gun today but a gun that has good alignment and proper tolarances will allways shoot hard better. Why wouldn't it. The rifling grabs the bullet better and more consistently and if you think about the bs theory of bumping up what your doing is taking your carefully casted bullet in a proven accurate design and having the pressure in your gun turn it into a blob of lead. Bottom line is not only is it deforming the bullet but will never do it the same every time. I will listen to the experts. Guys like Glen Fryxal Rob appelgate and veral smith. All of them will tell you that harder is better. Now elmer keith used soft alloys. He alloyed with tin. News flash. He did it because that's all he had and could get for free and most of the guns he shot would had dimentions all over the place. I have no place for those kinds of guns in my safe. If it doesn't shoot it goes down the road. If I have to have a bullet bump up to get the gun to shoot decent I will about bet you that what you call decent is minute of beer can not one inch 50 yard groups.

[Gatch]

When I quench my boolits straight from the mold, I have a rag tied over the top of my bucket. There's a cut in the rag to allow the boolits for fall through, but doesn't allow water to splash out. Works well enough.

[Lloyd Smale]

heck my pot is on a bench that's 2 or 3 feet about my bucket and a foot and half back from the edge. Youd probably have to drop a 5lb weight in it to get water to fly that far.
When I quench my boolits straight from the mold, I have a rag tied over the top of my bucket. There's a cut in the rag to allow the boolits for fall through, but doesn't allow water to splash out. Works well enough.

[gnoahhh]

I tried WQ'ing a few times and gave up on it as a waste of time. For most of my shooting needs, COWW air cooled hardness is a-ok (.45 Colt and .45ACP, .22,.25,.30 rifle loads- 99% of said rifle loads are in the 1400-1900fps range.) Excellent accuracy and zero leading is quite an argument against the bother of water quenching, IMO. If I wish to chase high velocity rifle loads, I have an obscene amount of linotype and monotype gathering dust for creating alloys suitable for that. In truth, when I head north of 2000fps I reach for jacketed bullets anyway.

[glaciers]

I tried WQ'ing a few times and gave up on it as a waste of time. For most of my shooting needs, COWW air cooled hardness is a-ok (.45 Colt and .45ACP, .22,.25,.30 rifle loads- 99% of said rifle loads are in the 1400-1900fps range.) Excellent accuracy and zero leading is quite an argument against the bother of water quenching, IMO. If I wish to chase high velocity rifle loads, I have an obscene amount of linotype and monotype gathering dust for creating alloys suitable for that. In truth, when I head north of 2000fps I reach for jacketed bullets anyway.

What he said ^^^^

[glaciers]

Dropping COWW into melted lead (bad idea, btw) is very different from dropping boolits into water. COWW can get water between the steel clip and the lead WW. It is hard to get rid of that water. Dropping cold (100° is still cold) WW into a substantial mass of 650° or hotter molten lead will turn that moisture into steam almost instantly. When you drop a boolit into water you're dropping a comparatively small mass of 450°-500° lead into a much greater mass of water. The small mass of hot lead can't heat the large mass of water enough to cause a steam explosion so they are two very different situations.

The best way is to put the WW into a cool pot and then turn the heat on. By the time the WW start melting the batch will be well above the boiling point of any trapped water so the WW are very dry by the time they start melting.

Yeah, now I just make COWW into ingots on a propane fired camp stove. Fill pan with weights, melt, pour ingots, start with new batch.

When you flux with sawdust, let the sawdust char to at least a toasted brown before stirring it into the melt. The moisture will be driven out of the sawdust and you won't get a warning or visit from the tinsel fairy. I felt some "bumping" once as I stirred sawdust into the melt and have let it toast before stirring ever since.

Only happened once, and had not stirred in yet, just something, somehow enough moisture got in to cause a problem.
Just pointing out any chance of water getting to the melt is to be avoided. When I used to water quench by dropping form the mold, I placed a towel on the bucket to soften the boolits from hitting hard and to keep all water in the bucket and not get any near the mold or pot.

[Lloyd Smale]

wish I had an obscene amount of type lead. Then I wouldn't worry about it either. I don't agree on ww cutting the mustard for 1900 fps loads. At least not if you want the best accuracy. Ive been fooling a lot with the black out this summer and loads with 130 rcbs spitzer gas checks at 2200 fps will double and triple group sizes in my two bo's if I go from lyno to ww. That is pc'd by the way. Aint my first rodeo. Ive been casting for over 30 years and have been doing it for handguns from the 25acp to the 500 Line. Rifles from the 32s to 458 mags. What ive found to be a good rule of thumb is anything over 1200 fps needs to be hard. As to leading you can do 1500 with a gas check (im talking conventional lube) but at or around 1300 accuracy starts falling off. When you get over 1500 its time for at least 18bhn and gas checks are about mandatory even with pc if you want accuracy. Crowd or go over 2000 and you need lyno or water dropped, gas checks and pc. Sure you can hit beer cans at 25 yards with about anything. But if you looking for sub 2moa groups at a 100 yards your not getting there with plain based bullets cast out of air cooled ww. I do agree if hunting big game is in the mix I don't fool much with high velocity cast. Personaly I think big game cast bullets begin at 30 cal and must be a flat point. Even they are marginal and real big game bullets have a 4 or 5 for the first number and don't need to be pushed much past 1200 fps and even at a 1000 fps will do a lot of killing. that said when I go out with my Black out or ar10 to blast up 500 rounds in a day I sure don't want to buy jacketed bullets because that would add at least a 100 bucks to that range trip and id still like to hit the target thank you. I used to think I had more linotype then id ever use. But I found that that is one thing I sure had wrong. Today its getting harder and harder to find and will just get harder yet in the future. Water dropped ww lets a guy use a cheaper alloy and get to the same place.
What he said ^^^^

[gnoahhh]

Nah. I rarely if ever cast anything much over 12-15 bhn and I shoot a lot of rifle stuff at velocities up to just shy of 2000 fps. I honestly cannot remember the last time I had a leading issue. I cast a bunch of .30 stuff recently out of an NOE mold that consistently returned MOA accuracy (with WW's) out of my M1903A1 USMC sniper clone. The alloys were straight lino and a mix of mono + lead, with a ladder test of powder charges made up of SR-4759 and 2400, and none of them came close to duplicating the accuracy of the WW bullets. (All in the 1600-2000fps range, as measured with a chronograph.) It served to strengthen my belief that we (or at least I) shouldn't hold too tight to intuitive wive's tales regarding the need for bullet hardness. Proper sizing and loading techniques, not to mention actual shooting techniques, hold far more importance in this man's world.

[Lloyd Smale]

now do the same test in 20 different guns and come back and tell me your new opinion. Aint my first rodeo. Been doing this for over 40 years. In about every type of gun ever made. I know an am friends with some of the best known handgun shooters and gun builders. All who share my opinion. Ive casted With about every alloy and casting technique devised by man. The old wives tales were more on the lines of guys claiming they could do anything with soft alloys. Mostly because they didn't have access to harder alloys, didn't know about techniques like water dropping and sure couldn't afford to by print lead that the print shops still needed to make news papers. I remember at the Linebaugh seminar one year when I was much younger. We were talking cast bullets and one guy there made the comment that hard bullets were no good. I thought he was going to be lynched. There were some pretty well know men in the handgun field there that day. Funny thing is I used a lowly 5.5 bisley 44 mag in the penetration test. Took 3rd place out of about 30 guns. Handguns as big as the Linebaugh max and 500 smith and rifles as bit as the 458 lott. Only two guns that beat me were a #1 in 458 mag shooting ww solids and a 475 Linebaugh shooting a 420. My gun was loaded with 340 lfngc cast out of straight linotype pushed to 1200 fps (hot load in that 5.5 inch gun) I then won the 44 mag class in the 800 yard buffalo shoot. It was a steel 3/4 sized buf at 800 yards. You had one shot to get your range and 5 for effect. I shot a 4 for 5. My buddy won the 45 colt 475 and 500 class. Not one bullet he shot was softer then 18bhn. Take your bubble gun bullets and put 45-50k of pressure behind them and turn them into little blobs of lead and maybe, MAYBE, on gun out of 2o will like that blob of lead. Usually because theres something wrong with it. Like I said before. As casters we chase jacketed performance. We look for our lead bullets to shoot as well as those expensive jacketed bullets do. Whats one thing jacketed bullets have in common? A HARD JACKET. A hard jacket so the bullet doesn't deform in the barrel and engages the rifling without stripping through it. If harder wasn't more accurate id bet the bench rest shooter would have given up on copper jacketed bullets YEARS ago.

[6bg6ga]

Anyone ever test hardness of their water quenched lead after a period of time? If my memory is still good I water quenched some bullets tested hardness and then went back 8 months later and found them not to be as hard as they were earlier.

[tankgunner59]

I water drop all my pills, mainly for quick handling. They all shoot just great with no leading at all. I take them to the gun room and spread them on one of the many retired dish towels from my wife, then dry them with another. But as a habit I don't PC any till the day after casting.

[DonH]

I figured dropping them out of the mold into a 5 gal. bucket of water on the floor behind me
would get me to the same place for the correct hardness.

It depends.
Water dropping will get you hardness, but not immediately as others have said. It is not as consistent as heat treating all bullets for the same time at the same temp. Can't be due variables but maybe "the same" enough for your purposes.
Years ago(30?) when I first read of heat treating bullets I was also into handgun deer hunting meaning 24-25 gr on 296 under plain base Keith bullets. So I experimented with water-cooling and the oven method all with COWW bullets. My first attempt wasin ~ 425° for 30 minutes (some recommended that) then quenched after aging I tested them with my new LBT hardness tester, supposedly bhn. I got a reading of 35 (!!!) from randomly picked samples. So , repeat the process, everything the same except for 15 minutes. This time I got 25. Water dropping netted 20-21 or about where linotype is supposed to be.
The benefit to oven heat treating is consistency and by varying time hardness can be tailored to suit a particular need.🙂