Red dot and 32 s& w LONG

[psweigle]

I am casting the lee 100 grain round nose, and powder coating. The guns are a 1903 s&w hand ejecter made around 1917, and a ruger sp101 327 fed mag.
From what I have read, re-read, and researched, 1.6 gr of RD is about the right charge. Does this sound reasonable, or am I thinking wrong. Any help is appreciated as I am new to the 32 caliber handgun game.

[RED BEAR]

You should have no problems with 1.6 gr of red dot To start. I can't find any info in my manuals for anything over 90 gr bullet but i see loads of 2.1 and 2.3 red dot for 90 grain bullets. Work up slow. The 32 sw long has the lowest pressure of pretty much all of the 32's.
I load this cartridge but mostly use unique.

[Larry Gibson]

Some recently posted pressure test results. Note; Red Dot is very similar to Bullseye in psi per gr used.

The test firearm was a Contender With a 10” barrel chambered in 32 H&R Magnum and a strain gauge affixed over the chamber at the prescribed SAAMI location for pressure measurement. The gauge was connected to the Oehler m43 and its attendant software in a laptop. I was able to measure the pressure and muzzle velocity of the assorted 32 S&W cartridges.

As a reference:
32 H&R Magnum
Federal 32 H&R 85 gr LSWC factory ammunition ran 1217 fps (987 fps out of 6 ½” Ruger SS) at 18,200 psi.
A Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1128 fps at 16,500 psi

32 S&WL;
Federal factory WCs; 12,000 psi
Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 2.8 gr Bullseye ran 1060 fps at 16,800 psi (880 fps out of my M30 S&W with 3” barrel)
Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1165 fps at 19,300 psi.
98 gr cast SWC over 2.5 gr Bullseye ran 944 fps at 15,000 psi.
98 gr cast SWC over 4 gr Unique ran 1101 at 19,000 psi

Also there is considerable Pressure data (tested) with 115 gr cast in this thread.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?382418-32-S-amp-WL-311008-115-gr-SWC-Bullseye-amp-Unique-PSI-Test

[RED BEAR]

Some recently posted pressure test results. Note; Red Dot is very similar to Bullseye in psi per gr used.

The test firearm was a Contender With a 10” barrel chambered in 32 H&R Magnum and a strain gauge affixed over the chamber at the prescribed SAAMI location for pressure measurement. The gauge was connected to the Oehler m43 and its attendant software in a laptop. I was able to measure the pressure and muzzle velocity of the assorted 32 S&W cartridges.

As a reference:
32 H&R Magnum
Federal 32 H&R 85 gr LSWC factory ammunition ran 1217 fps (987 fps out of 6 ½” Ruger SS) at 18,200 psi.
A Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1128 fps at 16,500 psi

32 S&WL;
Federal factory WCs; 12,000 psi
Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 2.8 gr Bullseye ran 1060 fps at 16,800 psi (880 fps out of my M30 S&W with 3” barrel)
Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1165 fps at 19,300 psi.
98 gr cast SWC over 2.5 gr Bullseye ran 944 fps at 15,000 psi.
98 gr cast SWC over 4 gr Unique ran 1101 at 19,000 psi

Also there is considerable Pressure data (tested) with 115 gr cast in this thread.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?382418-32-S-amp-WL-311008-115-gr-SWC-Bullseye-amp-Unique-PSI-Test

Your 32swl loads are a bit hot as it has a max chamber pressure of 15,000 psi i think but it might be cpu. The 4.0 of unique is over what most manuals list for the 32 hr.

[gwpercle]

From RCBS Cast Bullet Manual :
# 32-98-WC and #32-098-SWC both 98 grain boolits.
Red Dot Powder
start load ...1.8 grs. @ 685 fps
max. load ...2.0 grs. @ 778 fps

1.6 grs. with the Lee 100 grain cast RN should be right on the starting load money with a bit of room to spare. Work up slow and don't exceed 2.0 grains .
Gary

[GhostHawk]

I have an H&R 732 2.5" double action in .32sw long I load for.

Mostly using the Lee .314 90 gr TL truncated cone sized to .312 over 2 grains of Red Dot.

No issues here, nice mild load. Also shoots like a lazer in my Ruger NMSS .32 H&R mag.

[Larry Gibson]

Your 32swl loads are a bit hot as it has a max chamber pressure of 15,000 psi i think but it might be cpu. The 4.0 of unique is over what most manuals list for the 32 hr.

RED BEAR

The OP asked about loads for his "1903 s&w hand ejecter made around 1917, and a ruger sp101 327 fed mag" Both of which can certainly handle, with aplomb, th e loads I posted, especially the Ruger 101 chambered in 327.

The load the OP mentions as "about right" is about right for the 32 S&W cartridge deemed to be safe and often recommended for use in lieu of the 32 S&WL cartridge in older break open revolvers such as you like. Yet the SAAMI MAP for that cartridge is 17,000 psi......above the 15,000 psi for the 32S&WL [which is in deference to the WC match loads for the 2 very fine match blow back semi autos made for that cartridge......the only curently made handguns in 32 S&WL]. Actual pressure testing of the recommended safe various 32 S&W cartridges reveals the following measured pressures (tested during the same test session as the previous posted 32 S&WL loads);

The results of the 32 S&W factory ammunition;

Winchester Western 86 gr Lubaloy LRN; 786 fps at 18,900 psi
Winchester W-W; 727 fps at 15,300 psi
Winchester [WRA]; 729 fps at 16,300 psi
Remington [R-P]; 676 fps at 14,200 psi
Federal [F C] 86 gr FMJRN; 833 fps at 17,900 fps
Winchester [WRA] 86 gr FMJRN; 780 fps at 14,000 psi

Note all but 2 of those loads excede the SAAMI MAP for the 32 S&WL yet are deemed 'safe" in your old weaker revolvers.........

The load I posted which is in black bold print is right at the SAAMI MAP for the 32 S&WL so how can it be "hot" when it isn't.

As to the H&R loads those also are not "hot" as that psi is less than Federal factory 85 gr JHP loads. Also SAMMI has not established a MAP for the H&R Magnum but most "experts" state it is 21,000 psi which is close to the Federal factory JHP psi. That is also in deference to the pot metal framed H&R revolvers. You might also take a look in your manuals as to the bullets used in the H&R with Unique.

There is absolutely nothing "hot" about this load for use in the OPs S&W revolver; 98 gr cast SWC over 2.5 gr Bullseye ran 944 fps at 15,000 psi. Thgat load is within the SAMMI MAP for that cartridge. Any of the other loads are entirely within the capability of the OP's Ruger 101 chambered in 327 Magnum. Actually all the loads posted are rather anemic compared to the 327 Magnums psi.

Lastly, the OP's question was; "From what I have read, re-read, and researched, 1.6 gr of RD is about the right charge. Does this sound reasonable, or am I thinking wrong." The OP's thinking is not "wrong" as his 1.6 gr load would be about right for older weaker break open revolvers such as you like. However, the OP is not using such revolvers. The loads I posted (only one load was in bold and could be considered "recommended") are alternative suggested loads to use as reference for his much stronger revolvers, especially the Ruger 101 chambered in 327 Magnum. You are certainly entitled to your "opinion" as I am mine.

[Thumbcocker]

I run 2.5 of promo over a 105 swc with good accuracy in a model 31 and a sp101 .327. work up carefully.

[RED BEAR]

Larry i agree that the ruger will handle the pressure. The hand ejector most likely. But i for one will never go over published loads again. Yes these guns will probably handle the pressure until they don't. I agree that most if not all manuals give a margin of safety. But thats for a reason. Now you feel free to shoot what you like in your guns. After all it's up to you. I would not want to shoot these in my sw hand ejector.
When you pull the trigger and instantly feel pain and see blood . Look where your gun was and see a twisted hunk of scrap. It changes your perspective just a bit. People used to tell me those are a little to hot my reply was always my gun is a strong gun and it will handle it.
If you need the gun to do more than it was designed to do. Then i would say go up in the gun as stated a ruger 327 will handle the pressure why not leave the 32swl to do what it does and shoot another 32 . With a 327 there are a lot of options.

[Larry Gibson]

But i for one will never go over published loads again..........I would not want to shoot these in my sw hand ejector.

That's fine, your choice. However, there are far more "published" loads than the one RCBS example you gave. Does the RCBS manual (which one, there were 2 of them?) give the psi for those loads? Or are you just assuming they are the maximum MAP?

When you pull the trigger and instantly feel pain and see blood . Look where your gun was and see a twisted hunk of scrap. It changes your perspective just a bit. People used to tell me those are a little to hot my reply was always my gun is a strong gun and it will handle it.

Perhaps you have done that with your own loads, I have not because I work up loads correctly, using published data, and test them correctly. A little over dramatic btw........

If you need the gun to do more than it was designed to do.

Perhaps you can give us some insight into your knowledge of what S&W designed the hand ejector revolver for? I go by what S&Ws advertisements of the time state they could be used for. Those advertisements state a 32 S&W Hand ejector revolver can be used with the 32 S&W cartridge, the 32 S&WL cartridge and the 32 Colt Long cartridge. Current SAAMI MAPs and actual measured psi's for 2 of those cartridges run 17,000 to 18,500 psi. So please tell us what S&W "designed" the revolver for......perhaps their own advertisements were wrong?

[RED BEAR]

Larry i use quite a few different sources for my loads i look at at least 7 different manuals and on line.
The gun that blew up i did work up the loads and they seemed safe until they weren't. My brother complained about them being hard to extract but i never had this problem primers were a bit flattened but not really bad . I have had factory ammo do worse. I still have some small bits on that gun in my chest.
Larry if you chose to go over listed loads thats your busness i just would not recomend it for others. As far as being over dramitic well like joe friday just the facts.
As far as what the hand ejector was designed for is to handle a smokeless powder load not to exceed the original pressure of the black powder loading. Will they handle more pressure ? I am sure they will thats the margin of safety. If you wish to go over what a gun is designed to do by all means feel free i do not. I will never try to make a 32 sw long into a 32hr. I have both if i want to shoot at that level i pick up the 32hr. I blew up two guns in my youth ( young and dumd) and am not going to do it again. My main goal is accurate rounds not powerful.

[Larry Gibson]

RED BEAR

After blowing up 2 handguns I commend you for your caution. I guess, as Dirty Harry saide, "A man's got to know his limitations."

I managed to look at a couple load manuals regards the 32 S&WL and here's what I found for some max loads. Not all with 100 gr cast as the OP is using and not all with the same powders I listed but all are in the same weight range and burning range.

Lyman #49 lists 2.3 gr Bullseye under a 100 gr JACKETED bullet.
Hornady lists 2.1 Bullseye and 2.1 Red Dot under 85 gr JACKETED bullet.
Hodgdon lists 2.9 UniversaL, 2.6 hp38 AND 2.3 TiteGroup under a 90 gr Jacketed.
Sharpe, in his '30s Reloading book, lists 2.7 gr Bullseye under a 98 gr cast at 15,000 psi.

All are pretty much in line with the loads at the same pressures I posted. Guess the manuals post "hot loads" for the 32 S&WL too.........All quite safe in the solid frame revolvers they recommend them in.

[RED BEAR]

Larry the load that really had me concerned was the 4.0 grains of unique. Every manual i have except alliant list this as above the maximum for the 32 hr magnum. And you also say that the op's guns are strong enough but there is no way you could possibly know that . Guns that he stated in new condition maybe able to shoot loads higher than listed but you have no way to know the condition of his guns especially the sw. And yes i am cautious my wife and grandkids might shoot my guns.
I also look before i cross the street to.

[Larry Gibson]

well like joe friday just the facts.

Great, let's look at just the facts regarding that 4.0 gr Unique load......

I did not put that load in bold for the OP to consider as Unique is not similar in burning rate to Bullseye. The load was included as reference and possible use in the OPs Ruger 101 32 Federal Magnum. I miss posted earlier stating that cartridge MAP was 35,000 psi....it actually is 45,000 psi.......well above the 19,000 psi of the 4.0 gr Unique load.

The OPs 1917 made S&W 32 Hand Ejector was made for smokeless loads, not BP loads. It was made and advertised to shoot 32 S&W, 32 S&WL and Colt 32 Long cartridges, thus it was "designed" for such. The Winchester factory 32 S&W factory cartridges, a load that is presumed safe to shoot in 32 S&WL chambered revolvers made for smokeless ammunition, generated 18,900 psi in actual testing.....not guessing. The load you are concerned about, 4.0 gr Unique under the 98 gr cast bullet in the 32 S&WL, generated 19,000 psi in the same test gun. The "safe" factory 32 S&W load for the OPs S&W revolver generated 99.47% as much psi..........Those are actual facts regardless of what may be in some manuals.

Every manual i have except alliant list this as above the maximum for the 32 hr magnum.

Perhaps Alliant knows something you don't? The max load Alliant lists for Unique under a 100 gr JACKETED bullet is 4.7 gr. There is no SAAMI MAP for the 32 H&R cartridge. As I previously mentioned I have measured Federal 32 H&R psi's at 18,000 to 21,000 +/- psi in the same test gun. No guessing on pressures, just actually measuring them. There are also numerous articles with load data for Ruger 32 H&R revolvers exceeding that upwards of 28,000 psi. Those are available via "Google" and I have also posted extensive pressure test data on this forum and others.

Those are "just the facts"........

I did not tell the OP to use any load posted, just showed the facts of actual pressure measurements. He is free, just like you, to do with it as he pleases. As to the age and condition of the OPs guns I look at the glass as half full, not half empty........

[RED BEAR]

Larry thats great but you listed the unique load under 32swl with no mention it was only for a ruger. And as far as the sw hand ejector i agree it was designed for smokeless loads. But for smokeless loads not to exceed bp

[Green Frog]

Well, I'm just sitting here on the sidelines learning all I can :coffeecom during this discussion. I think I can shoot anything you can dream up for a 32 S&W Long in my 327 FM Blackhawk and probably my custom stainless K-frame 327, then if it's a promising (and not overly enthusiastic) load, then I can think about putting it in my I- and J-frames. Keep it up, guys! :bigsmyl2:

Froggie

[RED BEAR]

Well, I'm just sitting here on the sidelines learning all I can :coffeecom during this discussion. I think I can shoot anything you can dream up for a 32 S&W Long in my 327 FM Blackhawk and probably my custom stainless K-frame 327, then if it's a promising (and not overly enthusiastic) load, then I can think about putting it in my I- and J-frames. Keep it up, guys! :bigsmyl2:

Froggie

The 327 is one 32 that i still don't have but i am still looking. I just love my 32's if there ever was a perfect caliber this is it for me. I still need a 32-20, 32 rimfire and 32 colt but i will get there.

[Tracy]

Larry thats great but you listed the unique load under 32swl with no mention it was only for a ruger. And as far as the sw hand ejector i agree it was designed for smokeless loads. But for smokeless loads not to exceed bp

It's not "only for a Ruger." My Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook lists 4.0 Unique under a 100 grain jacketed bullet as suitable for solid frame revolvers and tested in a J frame S&W.

And I agree with Larry; referencing your blown up handguns with no further information is way over the top unless it happened with one of these loads.

[RED BEAR]

It's not "only for a Ruger." My Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook lists 4.0 Unique under a 100 grain jacketed bullet as suitable for solid frame revolvers and tested in a J frame S&W.

And I agree with Larry; referencing your blown up handguns with no further information is way over the top unless it happened with one of these loads.

Ok i will take your word for it.I
The highest charge i can find for a 32 sw long is alliant manual with a max charge of 2.8 for a 98 grain bullet.
Hornady list 2.5 as max for 90 grain bullet
Old nra manual list 3.2 gr for 98 gr bullet.
I do not have a lyman manual but of the ones i have only one list 4.0 as being acceptable for a 32 hr magnum.
If there is that much difference i need to pick up a lyman.
Thanks for setting me straight.
My only real concern was these were bit high for an old gun you know nothing about.
As it appears i was wrong larry gibson i would like to APOLOGIZE. I can admit if i am wrong.

[Green Frog]

The 327 is one 32 that i still don't have but i am still looking. I just love my 32's if there ever was a perfect caliber this is it for me. I still need a 32-20, 32 rimfire and 32 colt but i will get there.

Mr Red Bear,

You may or may not have seen one of my several posts here or on the S&W Forum concerning the building of “Project 616,” my custom stainless K-frame 327, but since it was assembled from modified factory parts, I’m hesitant to load it quite as hot as the big RBH. My idea of the perfect all around range and field gun would be a stainless RBH combo gun in 327 FM and 32-20. For a DA revolver, if S&W would actually build a stainless K-327 with an auxiliary 32-20 cylinder, I think they would have a winner! Both of my “dream guns” could take as strong a load as I would want to shoot from a handgun. :shock:

Froggie

[GhostHawk]

Lyman #3 cast manual lists 70 gr cast with max of 4 grains of Unique.

And shows Red Dot under a 93 gr from 1.7 gr to 3.0.

I have no issue with larry's data. Falls right into line with mine.

Red Bear, I have nothing but respect for you. But before inserting foot into mouth check 2 things.
A Not disagreeing with Outpost 75 or Larry G.
B Double check your facts.

Either one of those would have saved you much grief and aggravation.

Just accept the fact that both of them live on a plain above ours. They choose to spend time here because they are good people with a strong dose of humility and an urge to help. See a post by either one, just sit down and figure on it till you have it understood. Chances are you can take it to the bank. IE their work and reputation is as good as gold.


In your defense, you had the best possible motives. Safety of othersl But with these 2, calmly, slowly.

They are both good people. When in doubt, give them the benifet of the doubt. Best of luck to ya Red Bear.

(Tip o the hat to larry G and Outpost75)

[RED BEAR]

Like i say i will pick up a lyman manual because this is way over any load i can find for a 32sw long.
In my manuals these are 32 hr magnum loads. As far as my mentioning blowing up guns i mention it to caution going over listed charges and no they were not with this gun or powder both were with h110 a 44 and a 357. I have also had bad experiences with guns that never should have been shot. As a person who has been hurt i would hate to see it happen to anyone else.
But i can admit when i am wrong. And again to larry gibson again i APOLOGIZE.
now as far as putting my foot in mouth i know the taste of it well.

[Larry Gibson]

RED BEAR

No apology needed, this has been a good discussion all things considered. It's discussions like this that separate fact from fiction, truth from myth and help negate old wives tales. As we know, there are plenty of misconceptions about "max" loads in reloading. There are numerous reasons manuals have different max loads for basically the same kind of components........pressure is one of them but not the only one.

One myth, advent of the last 20-30 years since most manufacturers began adhering to SAAMI standards, is that all max loads listed are at the SAAMI MAP pressure wise. Many are but some aren't. Also numerous cartridges have different levels of loads (again pressure wise) based on the firearm they are intended to be used in. This had been done for over 100 years not only in reloading but also in factory produced ammunition.

Also most believe all factory ammunition is loaded to the SAAMI MAP pressure wise. That is many times the case, especially with premium ammunition and the newer modern magnums, but most often not with the manufacturers general run of the mill ammunition.

The problem with both is unless you can measure the pressure you don't really know. That is why staying within published load data, as you recommend, that has been pressure tested for the type of firearm we are using it in, as i also often recommend, is the best course. However, if we actually have pressure tested data that is within the pressures of a firearms capabilities we can also use that data. The pressure tested data presented in this, and several other .32 threads, can safely be used in firearms made for that pressure level. [Note I said "made for", not "designed for" as there is a difference.]

Let us understand that SAAMI is a volunteer organization that sets standards for manufacturers of arms and ammunition. There is no legal requirement for manufacturers to belong to SAAMI or to adhere to SAAMI standards. Most do for liability reasons these days. Also SAAMI has not set "standards" for all commercial cartridges nor does it set standards for any wildcat or "improved" cartridges (unless they are adopted by manufacturers as a standard cartridge). SAAMI pressure standards for many cartridges are also set for the oldest, weakest firearms they may be used in......the 32 S&WL is an example. As mentioned those cartridges can be, and are, safely loaded to higher pressures for use in firearms they are safe to use in.

Anyways, been a good discussion.

[RED BEAR]

Yea larry i have no way to measure pressure as such must rely on published data and i know that data can vary greatly from one manual to another. I am still building my library of manuals as such i do not have access to them all. I don't hunt so my main concern is accuracy and not power. My wife is very recoil sensitive my hands have a bit of arthritis so i can't take the recoil i used to. All of this leads to me loading on the light side.
Anyway glad no hard feelings.
May you and yours have a nice day.

[JoeJames]

A little off the thread, but it is germane to the cast 100 gr round nose bullet. Cousin had given me a golden bullet tub of 100 grain lead round nose grain bullets; so rather than melt them down, I figured to try them out in the 631 and the pre Model 30 (made around 1952). Theory for the pre Model 30 was that since it had fixed sights, and the 100 grain lead round nose bullet on top of 2.1 grains of Bullesye was the standard load back then it might be accurate. I have been tied to swc's for a long time, and I thought maybe it was time to branch out. As you can see from the nut can bottom, they will do for plunking around. The round nose bullet would probably not positively put down an armadillo, but it does shoot to point of aim well.

244590

[psweigle]

Thank you all for reassuring me that I wasnt off base with my choice. I will report back tomorrow and let you all know how it went.

[psweigle]

Ok. So, point of aim and point of impact at 20 feet are PERFECT from the hand ejecter. Mild recoil and surprisingly accurate for the lee boolit being .311.was able to recover a boolit and the powder coating was still intact. Thank you all for your help and guidance. I'm calling it a successful load.

[bigdog454]

I have loading manuals from the mid 60's (telling my age), and the differences between those and the newer can be eye opening. I no longer load to max, grew out of that a long time ago. I have found that, in my experience it depends on the gun. I have found that some need near max loads to shoot well, others like it mild. Some guns can take a lot of pressure ie. Ruger's Jap military, rifles etc. That dosen't mean that you should push them past recommended loads. Powders are strange; when you find one that your gun likes stick to it. A change, as most of yu know, in a bullet, the lead formula, powder type or charge, even primer can make a big difference. Some guns will shoot anything you stick in the chamber, others are fussy. That is why most guns are named after women. I shoulden't have said that.
BD

[RED BEAR]

Yes i actually love my hand ejector. Just plain fun. But i like pretty much all the old stuff. Like the top breaks to.

[Tracy]

Yes i actually love my hand ejector. Just plain fun. But i like pretty much all the old stuff. Like the top breaks to.

I don't have a top break yet, but I would like to have one. Preferably a pre-'99, which I would load with black powder.
I was looking at one on gunbroker. The seller clearly stated what year it was made (pre-'99) but had it listed as FFL required. I sent a PM asking about it and got no reply. That's ok because now I know not to buy anything from that particular seller.

[RED BEAR]

Check gun broker there are tons of them. I have two shelves full. Some as cheap as $30. If you are a little handy some need a little work. But there are a lot of parts still available. I have a 2 inch ivor johnson 32 sw that i use as a carry gun on occasion. These are a blast to shoot and very economical to load.

[Tracy]

Yeah, I was looking at some last night. Then started going down the rabbit hole of reading posts by Bill Goforth and Jim Hauff on the Firearms Forum, again. Too bad we lost those two.

[psweigle]

Don't have one of those yet. But I'm sure I will.

[RED BEAR]

I really don't mean to get this going again but just got the lyman cast bullet guide in and by any stretch of the imagination the load i questioned is above the max load for a 93 gr lee rn.
It is above anything listed for a 32 magnum and only .3 under the max load for a 327 magnum.
Larry i do understand that you have the pressure testing equipment. And have done a lot more testing than me .( I have dine none ). The load for a 98 grain rcbs wadcutter for the 327 mag list a 4.3 grain unique charge as max at 31,600 psi. I do realize that a wadcutter does seat deeper in the case but this is a 327 mag. Now i do see higher charges with lighter bullets.
This manual also list 2.7 grains of unique as max with 14800 psi with a saeco #326 100 grain bullet for the 32hr magnum.
For the 32 sw long it list 2.6 grains of unique as max for the saeco#326 100 grain bullet no pressure listed.
I never knew that the saami numbers were just recommendations but i will gladly take your word for this.
But since you yourself list the 4.0 grain unique at 19,000 this i around 25% higher than the max pressure for the 32 sw long .
I really feel justified in cautioning that this is a hot load for a gun you have never seen. And do not know the condition of.
The 98 gr swc 4.0 gr of unique seems to be more suited for a 32 hr mag or a 327 mag than a 32 long.
Larry gibson i will freely acknowledge that you know more about this than i do. But recommending a load 25% over the sammi max for a gun that is more than 100 years old that you don't know the condition.
I am sorry but i feel justified in cautioning that these are a bit hot.
Gostkawk there is a big difference in a 70 grain and a 98 grain bullet about 25% difference.
As far as my foot in my mouth i have grown accustomed to the taste and am sure i will enjoy the taste for years to come.

[Larry Gibson]

"But recommending a load 25% over the sammi max for a gun that is more than 100 years old that you don't know the condition."

For crying out loud RED BEAR, you obviously spent a bit of time going over the Lyman data and have a grasp of it. However,, also obviously, you failed to give my post the same scrutiny. Here is the post you seem to misunderstand;

"Some recently posted pressure test results. Note; Red Dot is very similar to Bullseye in psi per gr used.

The test firearm was a Contender With a 10” barrel chambered in 32 H&R Magnum and a strain gauge affixed over the chamber at the prescribed SAAMI location for pressure measurement. The gauge was connected to the Oehler m43 and its attendant software in a laptop. I was able to measure the pressure and muzzle velocity of the assorted 32 S&W cartridges.

As a reference:
32 H&R Magnum
Federal 32 H&R 85 gr LSWC factory ammunition ran 1217 fps (987 fps out of 6 ½” Ruger SS) at 18,200 psi.
A Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1128 fps at 16,500 psi

32 S&WL;
Federal factory WCs; 12,000 psi
Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 2.8 gr Bullseye ran 1060 fps at 16,800 psi (880 fps out of my M30 S&W with 3” barrel)
Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1165 fps at 19,300 psi.
98 gr cast SWC over 2.5 gr Bullseye ran 944 fps at 15,000 psi.
98 gr cast SWC over 4 gr Unique ran 1101 at 19,000 psi

Also there is considerable Pressure data (tested) with 115 gr cast in this thread.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...nique-PSI-Test”

No where in that post do I “recommend” any load. The post, just as stated, provides “Some recently posted pressure test results” which I put in red so maybe you would notice and understand(?) Simply posting test results is not recommending anything.

Red Dot is very similar in Burning rate giving the same level pressures with the same charges as Bullseye. That is why I put in bold the 2.5 gr Bullseye load for the OP. If anyone OTHER THAN YOU should assume I recommended any load it would have been that one. That load of Bullseye in bold neither exceeds the SAAMI MAP for the 32 S&WL. The Lyman CBH max load of 2.4 gr Bullsue for the 100 gr cast bullet (different bullets can and do give different pressures) does not list a pressure so you have no idea whether it exceeded 15,000 psi or not. We do know the 2.5 gr load with the 98 gr cast bullet I put in bold does not exceed the SAAMI MAP because the psi was measured.

Then In post #7 I stated to you; “There is absolutely nothing "hot" about this load for use in the OPs S&W revolver; 98 gr cast SWC over 2.5 gr Bullseye ran 944 fps at 15,000 psi. That load is within the SAMMI MAP for that cartridge. Any of the other loads are entirely within the capability of the OP's Ruger 101 chambered in 327 Magnum. Actually all the loads posted are rather anemic compared to the 327 Magnums psi.”

As to the "100 year old gun" comment......show me any scientific facts where age alone weakens steel. Also consider 140+ year old M1973 TDs are held to 28,000 psi SAAMI MAP.......I guess they don't get weaker as the years go by as does the OPs S&W........

So do us all a favor.......understand, if you can, simply posting test results is not recommending anything.........take your foot out of your mouth and give it a rest.

[RED BEAR]

I will admit that since the op was asking for advice for a starting load. I thought that is what you were giving my mistake.
As far as the 100 year old part i just ment that a lot can happen in 100 yrs and with out seeing the gun you would have no idea of the condition and what pressure it might handle. But since you didn't mean to offer these loads for use. Then i guess it was ok. Not sure why reply to someone asking advice on starting loads with load data you don't intend for them to use.
When confronted by other members stating that these loads were inline with listed data i had to relinquish as i didn't have the lyman manual.
As i said before the load that concerned me was not with red dot or bulls eye but unique. This load that you list a 98 gr swc over 4 grains of unique. No where in a single manual can i find a load anywhere near this in 32 sw long as such i said it was a bit hot. At your listed pressure that is about 25% over the saami listed max pressure.
If this is not a bit hot then what is it?
It very well may work in this or that gun
But to chastise me for stating the obvious i do not feel is right.
Not entirely sure why you would give this data to someone asking for starting load data but as i said earlier i will agree that you probably know more than i do about these matters. But i can read manuals to and as i say again all i said was that it was a bit hot and i still stand by that for that one load .

[RED BEAR]

Oh by the way as for my foot in my mouth i have really gotten used to the taste. Also in later post you state that the op's guns both of them can handle the pressure. You claim that the unique load was for the ruger but nowhere do you say that. As far as sw advertisement stating that the 32 sw could be shot i the hand ejector this is true as before the late 30's early 1940 it was a black powder cartridge it wasn't until after the 40's that it was loaded exclusively with smokeless powder.

[Larry Gibson]

RED BEAR

"I will admit that since the op was asking for advice for a starting load..........Not sure why reply to someone asking advice on starting loads with load data you don't intend for them to use."

Because the OP didn't ask for "starting loads" is why. The OP didn't ask for thoughts on just loading for the S&W but also the Ruger 327 magnum is why. The OP didn't say he wanted a load good for both only. Here is his post;

"I am casting the lee 100 grain round nose, and powder coating. The guns are a 1903 s&w hand ejecter made around 1917, and a ruger sp101 327 fed mag.
From what I have read, re-read, and researched, 1.6 gr of RD is about the right charge. Does this sound reasonable, or am I thinking wrong. Any help is appreciated as I am new to the 32 caliber handgun game.”

The OP asked for “any help” and that’s what I posted. All of the loads I posted are quite safe in the Ruger and the one load in bold is quite safe in the S&W. Given actual pressure testing of 32 S&W (the short one) which is deemed safe and recommended with current factory loads in all "old" 32 S&WLs, including your break open ones, the other loads would also be safe in the OPs S&W solid frame revolver. That's based on the actual measured pressures of factory 32 S&W (the short one).

Here is the result of actual testing of 32 S&W cartridge two of which were BP loads. Note four of them exceed the SAAMI MAP for the 32 S&WL cartridge........and two of those four were old BP loads.

The results of the 32 S&W factory ammunition;

Winchester Western 86 gr Lubaloy LRN; 786 fps at 18,900 psi
Winchester W-W; 727 fps at 15,300 psi
Winchester [WRA]; 729 fps at 16,300 psi
Remington [R-P]; 676 fps at 14,200 psi
Federal [F C] 86 gr FMJRN; 833 fps at 17,900 fps
Winchester [WRA] 86 gr FMJRN; 780 fps at 14,000 psi

You seem to think Lyman or other manuals don't have loads that exceed SAAMI MAPs.....you are wrong there too. Look in your Lyman manual and you find several cartridges with loads above the SAAMI MAP for the cartridge[the 45-70 and 44-40 for example]....some by more the 25% you seen to think is too hot.

You really should start reading and understanding what you’re talking about. I deal in facts not your opinions.

[Tracy]

Oh by the way as for my foot in my mouth i have really gotten used to the taste. Also in later post you state that the op's guns both of them can handle the pressure. You claim that the unique load was for the ruger but nowhere do you say that. As far as sw advertisement stating that the 32 sw could be shot i the hand ejector this is true as before the late 30's early 1940 it was a black powder cartridge it wasn't until after the 40's that it was loaded exclusively with smokeless powder.

It's still not loaded exclusively with smokeless powder. But the standard factory loads have been smokeless since 1903, and revolvers made since then have been designed for smokeless. Even the H&R and IJ top breaks were rated for smokeless by 1906 or so, at the latest.
Castpics used to archive some old manuals, including the Ideal No. 38. Those don't seem to be there any more. But I have a 1964 edition that lists 4.3 Unique under the 95 grain No. 313226 roundnose, and 4.0 Unique under the 105 grain 31133 hollowpoint, in .32 Long and New Police. There is no warning against shooting it in whatever .32 Long or N.P. revolver you have. .32 H&R Mag didn't exist in 1964, nor did .327 Fed Mag; and there was no such thing as a Ruger revolver chambered for any .32 cartridge.
Will I be shooting those loads in my early '20s .32 HE? Probably not, but I seriously doubt that it would hurt it to do so.

Btw, the 4.0 Unique/ 100 grain Remington jsp load I quoted before was from the Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook. Mine is a 7th printing, 1989 but the first printing was in 1978. At that time there was still no such animal as .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, nor a Ruger .32 revolver. Here's another .32 S&W Long load from that same book: 3.7 grains of Unique under the 115 grain No. 3118. Again, listed as fine for all solid frame revolvers in good condition.

[No_1]

Everyone slow down and take a breather. This is a great thread, if it goes off the rails it will be locked.

[Mr_Sheesh]

I have a copy of the Ideal Manual #38 here in pdf file form, THINK I found it on archive.org but unsure.

[RED BEAR]

It's still not loaded exclusively with smokeless powder. But the standard factory loads have been smokeless since 1903, and revolvers made since then have been designed for smokeless. Even the H&R and IJ top breaks were rated for smokeless by 1906 or so, at the latest.
Castpics used to archive some old manuals, including the Ideal No. 38. Those don't seem to be there any more. But I have a 1964 edition that lists 4.3 Unique under the 95 grain No. 313226 roundnose, and 4.0 Unique under the 105 grain 31133 hollowpoint, in .32 Long and New Police. There is no warning against shooting it in whatever .32 Long or N.P. revolver you have. .32 H&R Mag didn't exist in 1964, nor did .327 Fed Mag; and there was no such thing as a Ruger revolver chambered for any .32 cartridge.
Will I be shooting those loads in my early '20s .32 HE? Probably not, but I seriously doubt that it would hurt it to do so.

Btw, the 4.0 Unique/ 100 grain Remington jsp load I quoted before was from the Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook. Mine is a 7th printing, 1989 but the first printing was in 1978. At that time there was still no such animal as .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, nor a Ruger .32 revolver. Here's another .32 S&W Long load from that same book: 3.7 grains of Unique under the 115 grain No. 3118. Again, listed as fine for all solid frame revolvers in good condition.

The standard factory load for the 32 sw long have been loaded with smokeless powder since 1903 but the pressure of the smokeless load was not to exceed that of the black powder load .
The 32 sw was loaded with black powder until 1939 or 1940 then switched to smokeless to.
To say that a load is not a hot load even though it surpassed the saami max by 25% because an add said it could shoot another round seems a little out there.
Going back to the 60's to get data is going a bit i have been cautioned on this site to use up to date info. So i was told that the lyman manual would support a 4.0 grain load of unique with a 98 grain swc. So i relented as i didn't have a lyman manual. Well i bought one and it doesn't come anywhere near this.
By Mr Gibson's own data this load is well over the 15000 psi pressure listed as max by saami. If thats not a bit hot what is it? I have been cautioned more than once and in a current post not to use jacketed data for cast as a cast bullet will produce higher pressure.

Its very simple to solve can anyone out there give me an example of a current manual that says this 4.0 grains of unique with a 98 grain swc is an acceptable load for the 32 smith and wesson long. Something from the last 20 or so years.
All i said was this load was a bit hot.
I was not talking about red dot or bulls eye i made this clear in later post.
Mr Gibson said that he was just listing data not necessarly for the op to use. Not really sure why you would list data you didn't intend for someone to use.
But then in later post he does state that this data can be used in the op's gun.
I have a great deal of respect for Mr Gibson he has probably forgot more than i will ever know. But he doesn't walk on water there was only one infallible man as far as i knew.
They have changed the way that pressure is measured to a more accurate system powder changes from batch to batch unique has a new cleaner formula. I will grant you powder changes very little from batch to batch but it does change if it didn't there would never be any need for a new manual.
When i was told that i was wrong and the lyman manual would prove it. I admitted my error and apologized to Mr Gibson. But i see that is not the case and the lyman cast bullet handbook 4th edition supports my position. As do all other manuals i own. And all online data from powder manufactures.
I freely admit that i am not always right i am not perfect but i do feel i am right in this instance.

[JoeJames]

The reason I went with 2.1 grains of Bullseye with a 100 grain round nose cast boolit was simply because I was trying to get to point of aim in two of my S&W's in 32S&W Long which have fixed sights. From Hatcher's textbook of Pistols and Revovers Julian stated that the standard factory loads back then were using either 2 or 2.1 grains of Bullseye with a 98 - 100 grain round nose. So I assumed that Smith regulated them for that load. One is a 1903 Hand Ejector made about 1914, and the other is an Improved I frame made about 1952. Both with a 4" barrel. And yes, they do shoot to point of aim with the 2.1 grain load. Going for hotter loads is not very intuitive since they will probably not shoot to point of aim in these revolvers. There just ain't much adjustment when you are dealing with fixed sights.

[Larry Gibson]

JoeJames

That's the same reason I use the "Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 2.8 gr Bullseye ran 1060 fps at 16,800 psi (880 fps out of my M30 S&W with 3” barrel)" as that load hits to point of aim out to 25 yards, is very accurate and is deadly on small game/vermin along with rocks, pine cones, sticks, cow pies, etc.. I have shot several thousand of those loads and the M30 is as solid as ever.

[psweigle]

Joejames, I can tell you that the lee round nose 100 grain boolit behind 1.6 grains of red dot will in fact hit point of aim in a 102 year old s&w hand ejecter. And do it quite accurately. The only reason I went with red dot is that I have a little over half a can of it that I wanted to use up. I am so impressed with this load that I went and bought a new can, just for the old gun. The load works equally well in the 3" sp101.

[RED BEAR]

Joejames, I can tell you that the lee round nose 100 grain boolit behind 1.6 grains of red dot will in fact hit point of aim in a 102 year old s&w hand ejecter. And do it quite accurately. The only reason I went with red dot is that I have a little over half a can of it that I wanted to use up. I am so impressed with this load that I went and bought a new can, just for the old gun. The load works equally well in the 3" sp101.

Great glad it worked out for you. But you know you will be hooked now welcome to the wonderful world of the 32.

[psweigle]

I'm already hooked! Now to get a 32-20 to go with the old hand ejecter.

[RED BEAR]

Yea thats one i still need to. Wife asked if they stopped making everything except 32's. Told her just about.

[psweigle]

I should be getting the henry big boy steel in 327 some time in September. Cant wait to try it out. 32 s&w long in a lever rifle. What fun!

[RED BEAR]

Yea i gotta agree. Henry's are nice.

[35remington]

I have been pretty extensively shooting a 1919 Colt Police Positive and a 1924 Smith Regulation Police with the RCBS 98 SWC put up in NOE clone form, the same from NOE in the Lyman 313492 “semi wadcutter wadcutter” copy of 89 grains, and the RCBS 98 wadcutter.

The NOE/RCBS 98 SWC seats shallowly, such that charge of Bullseye approximating 1.9-2 grains get only 620 fps, well below the 720-800 fps desired. Charges have to be bumped up beyond the range that are usable with more deeply seated bullets. A charge of Bullseye or WST that gets 820 fps with the RCBS 98 SWC starts getting a little speedier than I want to use regularly with any deeper seated SWC of equivalent weight.

I can see the skinny blade of the PP on sunny days well, and six shot groups from a resting position at fifty yards can be covered with with palm of the hand. That is plenty good enough to make a deliberate shot at a rabbit, possum or raccoon an actual possibility and is sort of my standard accuracy assessment of field utility.

FWIW, Remington factory 32 Smith and Wesson gets about 660 fps from the 4.25” Regulation Police. Remington factory 98 RN Long usually does 720 or so, as advertised, and I was surprised to find Privi Partisan 98 RN Long to average 780 fps from the Colt, which is a four inch.

Too bad the Colt hits 18” to the left at fifty yards! I gotta file the rear notch wider on the right side...

I am getting pretty fond of WST as it bulks and meters well. This and Bullseye see the most use. About 1.9-2.0 Bullseye and the RCBS wadcutter are also an accuracy prescription at 710 fps. I say “about” as somewhere in there is the charge the Lee Pro Auto Disk meters from the relevant Micro cavity. I haven’t weighed it lately but depending upon lot it is in that region somewhere.

Usually Lee disks meter a little short of the stated weight.

I must say that revolvers of this vintage much prefer .314-315” bullets as that is what the chamber throats measure. Unless the powder coating is applied thickly I am skeptical in that the Lee 100 casts rather too small in my example, and I think the bullet should be larger in diameter to show its best from revolvers like mine. Too small is not good, accuracy wise.

[35remington]

And personal preference here, but a charge of Red Dot getting 720 fps with a 98-100 grain bullet would be about ideal for practice and factory duplication. This is nearing around 2 grains, more or less.

My dislike of Red Dot extends to any large flake powder in small charge weights. The Lee cavities throw squibs using large flake powders in quantities below about 3.7 grains and the 32 Long uses charges well below that. Generally I prefer something smaller granuled and better metering like the aforementioned WST and Bullseye. With Bullseye the discontinued Micro Disk is necessary.

I hate weighing charges, so therefore I myself say “pass” on Red Dot in the 32 Long.

[GhostHawk]

35 Rem, my RCBS uniflow measure has no issues with charges down to 3 grains. Lower I have not tried.

For my .32sw long I just made a powder dipper. Adjusted it with scale until it was consistant and called it good.

Hard to beat Red Dot in small quantity's IMO.

My pistols are a H&R 732 2.5 inch barrel, single/double action.
and a Ruger NMSS in .32H&R mag.

Both shoot the lee .314 truncated cone tumble lubed over 2 grains of Red Dot very very well.
Low recoil, low noise, hardly any muzzle flip and shoot directly to sights at 20 feet.

I printed one group from the snub H&R with a army ranger watching, 3 tours in the sandbox and 14 years experience.
He was having trouble with it, so I reloaded it, took duelers stance, one handed it. Put 6 into a 1" group at 20 feet.

(Jean on seeing the target) " How in the heck did you do that?"

Me, Used the FORCE of course.

[35remington]

Long charge weights in the lower range of 2 grains may give you problems in the Uniflow. Worth checking out. If the dipper works for you more power to you, but too slow for my volume use.

[JoeJames]

I have been using the Lee set of 32 H&R Magnum dies, which works just fine for 32 S&W Long of course. The dipper that came with it seems to throw about 2.5 grains of Unique which was great when I was trying out the 115-116 grains swc's - no need for a regular RCBS powder measure. But when running 2 - 2.1 grains of Bullseye I had to use the RCBS powder measure, and it was quite accurate in throwing 2.1 grains once I had it calibrated correctly.

[Green Frog]

I’ve just got to make up a really small chambered rotor for my old Pacific Pistol measure... that little unit should be just right for loading my 32 S&W L SWCs for the K-32 and my early post-War I-frame snubbie. Of course I’ll be doing most other steps on my ‘50s vintage TruLine Jr. ;)

I’ve got about 4 lb or so of Red Dot, but I had planned on using up some of my Unique and Bullseye as well, but now this thread has me wanting to try a bunch of different powders... so many choices, so little time to shoot! :veryconfu

Froggie

[RED BEAR]

I use a lee powder measure. If you take it apart and remove the lip that keeps the adjustment rod from going all the way to the cone. It will pretty much throw consistent charges down to .7 grains of bulls eye. Still have to use trickler some but not much. Haven't tried the lyman yet. I was supprised when i slugged my old 32 sw's they needed .314 anything less and they shoot all over. I have more sizing dies for this caliber than any other. From .309 to .315. Also if you need the lee a little bigger a little heat tape will do the trick.

[psweigle]

The lee auto drum throws 1.6 of red dot every time. This is the measure used for said load in question. The press is the new lee breech lock progressive.
Lee mold, lee dies, lee powder measure, lee press, CCI sp primers, starline brass. Nothing fancy or expensive. But it sure does make a fun to shoot round for that old hand ejecter.

I shot some remington "performance wheelgun" 98gr factory stuff and thought it to be good enough, but this combo, in this gun, far surpasses the factory load. I couldnt be happier with the results.

[35remington]

I presume you are talking accuracy. The obtained velocity is going to be rather low, well below factory equivalent.

[RED BEAR]

Hey way to go i love mine to. They really are a blast to shoot. For just plinking and having fun i would probably go with that. If its accurate why change. Most of my shooting is mainly for accuracy i don't need anything super powerful. Well as accurate as my old eyes can get me.

[psweigle]

Yes. Accuracy, point of aim and point of impact .

[35remington]

If you are happy that is the main thing but velocity is likely in the 600-620 fps range.

Depending upon seating depth and other factors of course. You are in no danger of wearing out the gun, certainly.

As psi gets on the low side the 32 Long sees wides swings in velocity variation, especially as the powder shifts in the case. There is good reason not to go too light, and loading to the higher end of the pressure range cleans up some of the soot that occurs at low pressure and makes the round more consistent. The gun should still shoot to desired point of impact as velocity increases, as the gun was regulated for 98 grain bullets. Factory loads in RN persuasion go from 720 to near 800 fps.

Whether the gun hits to point of impact has more to do with bullet weight than bullet speed. If the bullet weight is standard for the caliber it will do so.

A lot of time behind a chronograph and noting velocity readings after many firings has me preferring the 98 RCBS SWC at around 780-820fps, more deeply seated 98 SWC’s and RN at 720 or better and the deeply seated 98 WC’s around 700 or a little more. Of the three the RCBS 98 SWC has by far the most case volume remaining after being seated to the appropriate depth.

[psweigle]

I may experiment a little with the powder charge, as there is definitely a little soot on the case. Not hateful, but there.

[JoeJames]

If you are happy that is the main thing but velocity is likely in the 600-620 fps range.

Depending upon seating depth and other factors of course. You are in no danger of wearing out the gun, certainly.

As psi gets on the low side the 32 Long sees wides swings in velocity variation, especially as the powder shifts in the case. There is good reason not to go too light, and loading to the higher end of the pressure range cleans up some of the soot that occurs at low pressure and makes the round more consistent. The gun should still shoot to desired point of impact as velocity increases, as the gun was regulated for 98 grain bullets. Factory loads in RN persuasion go from 720 to near 800 fps.

Whether the gun hits to point of impact has more to do with bullet weight than bullet speed. If the bullet weight is standard for the caliber it will do so.

A lot of time behind a chronograph and noting velocity readings after many firings has me preferring the 98 RCBS SWC at around 780-820fps, more deeply seated 98 SWC’s and RN at 720 or better and the deeply seated 98 WC’s around 700 or a little more. Of the three the RCBS 98 SWC has by far the most case volume remaining after being seated to the appropriate depth.All revolvers are a law unto themselves - handloading manuals are merely advisory.
98 grain cast bullet swc or round nose =
32 HE 5th Change:
2 grains of bullseye average = 655 fps
2.1 grain average = 688 fps
2.2 grains average = 750 fps
S&W Model 631:
2 grains of bullseye average = 624 fps
2.1 grains average = 667 fps
2.2 grains average = 721 fps

[RED BEAR]

I am not trying to ruffle any feathers. I honestly want to know. Unless you have a specific need hunting pest eradication self defence ect. What do you get out of increasing the velocity? Increasing my charges in the 32sw and 32 swl using red dot or unique may be a little cleaner but not very much these are just not clean powders. All i do is plink with my guns and reloads. So i would like to knowis there something i am missing?

[bigdog454]

If you are doing pest eradication (depending on the pest), I would choose some other caliber; ie. a22mag or 17mag. If a 32 s&w is all you have when the oppertunity comes along go for it. I myself prefer a good rifle or shot gun for pest control.
BD

[RED BEAR]

If you are doing pest eradication (depending on the pest), I would choose some other caliber; ie. a22mag or 17mag. If a 32 s&w is all you have when the oppertunity comes along go for it. I myself prefer a good rifle or shot gun for pest control.
BD

I agree it would not be my first choice either i just threw that in as a possible reason for needing more velocity. I usually try for the most accurate loads as i only target shoot and dont carry a 32 sw or sw long much for self defense. On occasion but not often.

[JoeJames]

I am not trying to ruffle any feathers. I honestly want to know. Unless you have a specific need hunting pest eradication self defence ect. What do you get out of increasing the velocity? Increasing my charges in the 32sw and 32 swl using red dot or unique may be a little cleaner but not very much these are just not clean powders. All i do is plink with my guns and reloads. So i would like to knowis there something i am missing?I must be missing it too, or on the other hand must be some folks just like more pop. As far as pest eradication goes, Elmer Keith said that the 32 S&W Long load with a round nose boolit was not good for anything like that; so that is not on the table with them (although I reckon it might have more put-down power than a 22 LR solid - maybe but not as fast as a 22LR); but they are fun to plink around with, and the round nose boolit with the old sedate factory type loads of Bullseye are quite accurate.

[35remington]

Try very light loads with powder near bullet and powder near primer over the chronograph. After so doing you’ll know you are missing something and will not have to ask if you are missing something. Reasonable pressure is a good thing.

Certainly I am not suggesting any hot loading, but I am suggesting going low on powder charges is often not a good idea.

1.6 grains of Red Dot is very light.

[35remington]

And....these higher pressure loads are still within acceptable norms and are very accurate. In that regard their potential is better than low pressure loads as velocity dispersion is not an accuracy friendly attribute as range increases.

As mentioned earlier I shoot at 50 yards and given a steady rest I expect to hit things at that range.

[psweigle]

The only reason for considering a bit more powder is to eliminate some of the soot. If it changes anything or the better, so be it. In no means am I looking to hotrod this load.

[RED BEAR]

So if i understand it right you will get more consistent velocity and a little cleaner burn. Ok that answers my question. I realize that i do baby my guns but 100 yrs old is one of my newer ones. But i do enjoy shooting them. I am looking to add to my 32's at every opportunity when funds permit.
Oh almost forgot thanks i just wasn't sure the reason.

[psweigle]

No problem. I'm learning as I go. But it sure is fun.

[RED BEAR]

No problem. I'm learning as I go. But it sure is fun.

Yea it sure is. Even an old dog can learn a thing or two. I wish i could shoot in the back yard but thats a no no. But range is within 5 minutes so its not so bad.

[bigdog454]

R.B.. FYI only. Not that I'm recommending, 1964 Lyman book of cast bullets; 32 long, 95 gr 313226 rn bullet. Unique sug grs 3.o sug max gr 4.3 vel1010. bullseye sug grs 1.5 sug max grs 2.7 vel 910fps.
BD

[JoeJames]

Yea it sure is. Even an old dog can learn a thing or two. I wish i could shoot in the back yard but thats a no no. But range is within 5 minutes so its not so bad.I realize I am blessed for now anyhow. I regularly shoot off my side porch steps when I am just plinking. Sit on the step with my back against the next step up and take a rest off my knees, kind of Elmer Keith fashion, except he would sit back against a tree with his knees up.

[psweigle]

Nice. This is how my son and I shoot as well. I have a small stack of old railroad ties we shoot into. Right behind that is a 30 foot tall bank. Behind that is woods. I have a bench built around the oak tree 10 steps off the back porch. Great for plinking.

[35remington]

I am again not suggesting anyone hotrod, but rather load to a level where good ballistic consistency is obtained.

When I first started loading for the Long I figured the smaller case (than 38 Special, at least) would lend it inherently better ballistic consistency. What I failed to consider is many of the loads listed are very light, and I found such loads to be undesirable. Low pressure and light charges are still inconsistent.

While smaller than 38, the case is much larger than and operates at considerably lower pressures than 32 ACP. Toss light loads in the equation and things get inconsistent.

Absolutely avoid Universal powder with 98 RN or SWC bullets in this cartridge. Try to stay above the 4 figure K range and closer to the SAAMI limit. Read between the lines of what Larry was suggesting earlier. To be clear, the message is that reasonable pressure is more desirable than intentionally pursuing low pressure.

[psweigle]

I will get the chrony out the next time the boy and I shoot. You have me curious as to what velocity my 1.6 grains of red dot produces.

[35remington]

Measure five shots with powder near bullet, then five with powder near primer. Tip gun up or down immediately before shooting, carefully level and fire.

Be ready for enlightenment. The Reader’s Digest Version is position sensitivity never goes away, but it does get less when pressures are acceptably high and the case is more full of powder, which is the reason for loading to other than low pressures in the first place.

Due to its bulk Red Dot is better at this than some other alternatives but loading to low levels will make things worse even with a suitable powder. If you know what more acceptable looks like you will not care for having less.

If I was farting around with a load as light as 1.6 grains of Red Dot I personally would use it with a deeply seated wadcutter and nothing else. I do not have much regard for lighter than consistent powder charges and standard seating depth bullets in this low pressure cartridge.

The unused case space and low pressure make it sort of a ballistic detriment.....rather the opposite of a 9mm. There is nothing detrimental about reasonable 32 Long pressure levels. There is all kinds of detriment to lightly loaded low pressure 32 Longs with excess unused case space....that is, such loads with 98 RN and SWC.

[RED BEAR]

R.B.. FYI only. Not that I'm recommending, 1964 Lyman book of cast bullets; 32 long, 95 gr 313226 rn bullet. Unique sug grs 3.o sug max gr 4.3 vel1010. bullseye sug grs 1.5 sug max grs 2.7 vel 910fps.
BD

I have old manuals as well i even have one that list up to 3.2 but there is a reason these are old and the data is old. More modern manuals do not come close to these charges. Powders change from lot to lot and unique was even reformulated. There are better methods for testing pressure. The new alliant manual list 4.4 grains or unique as max for 32 hr magnum and i can tell you that a lot of alliant data is quite warm. The new lyman manual does not come even close to that. I have been reloading a long time but i will admit that i am not even close to knowing everything. But i was always taught to use the latest loading info and never to exceed max loads listed. When i was young i ignored this and got into trouble. I would hate to see someone else have bad things happen. Now everyone is more than free to do as they please. If you feel that the posted data is not going to do what you want you are free to load as you want.

[bigdog454]

Good debate, I really enjoyed it!
BD

[psweigle]

Me too! Ive learned some things from it as well.

[psweigle]

Ok, went to get the crony out this weekend, and realized my shooting buddy has it. He is bringing it to work today, so I hope to have the results in a day or two. I only have 2 guns to try the load out in, the 4" s&w hand ejecter, and the 3" sp101 327. I'm pretty sure the ruger will have better velocity.

[gnoahhh]

One thing I have learned from reading Larry Gibson's posts over the years is that he is one of the rare cast shooters who approaches the game with a sense of employing the scientific method. I rarely have had reason to take exception with his findings, and always follow his posts with interest.

My personal .32 is a 1917-vintage Colt Police Positive. My go-to load is 2.2 grains Bullseye under a 95 grain SWC, bullets cast of WW/lead alloy (bhn 9-10), sized to .313 for a slight interference fit in the throats. I've burned through several pounds of Bullseye with that load and the revolver remains as tight as the day it was made- and brass lasts forever, accuracy is great, and leading unheard of.

I never felt a need to load it hotter. If I want/need more oomph I reach for the 1911 Gov't Model.

[psweigle]

Agreed. Larry knows his stuff. Agreed, a 100 year old gun need not be hot prodded. I have a 327 federal magnum for just that.

[psweigle]

I have the chronograph, now just need to wait for morning. Should have the speed to post in the am.

[RED BEAR]

Look forward to seeing the results. A chronograph is something i need. I have to go to a friends to check my loads.

[psweigle]

Ok. 1.6 grains of red dot starline brass cci small pistol primer. Lee 100 grain round nose, powder coated. 10 shot average is 549 tried holding the muzzle down first, then up. Saw a slight difference in velocity by an average of 20 fps. All in all I'm happy with it. I may at some point look at upping the charge, but for now I'm leaving it alone.

[psweigle]

Ok. 1.6 grains of red dot starline brass cci small pistol primer. Lee 100 grain round nose, powder coated. 10 shot average is 549 tried holding the muzzle down first, then up. Saw a slight difference in velocity by an average of 20 fps. All in all I'm happy with it. I may at some point look at upping the charge, but for now I'm leaving it alone.

[35remington]

The velocity is certainly as low as I predicted.

I will see a spread in velocity in excess of 100 fps doing the same thing. Or, at least by doing it the following way. You may have done something different.

Procedure: point gun straight down, slowly raise to level, fire. Cock gun and manipulate carefully before so doing to ensure powder stays bunched by bullet.

Point gun straight up after carefully cocking, lower carefully to horizontal, fire. Do each for five shots.

If the relevance of such is questioned, the handling of the revolver prior to shooting can make such powder positioning a strong likelihood.

Given the amount of testing I have done, I will note spreads of velocity I have mentioned are the usual situation. With poor powder choices spreads may exceed 140 fps. Extreme spreads of only 20 fps do not occur for me even when the powder is positioned the same way for every shot. Keep in mind I speak of five or six shots or more in testing.

Said by a guy who has done a whole lot of such shooting of the 32 Long, and chronographed many many hundreds of shots. I have commented extensively on this phenomenon in instances where largish amounts of powder space and low pressures exist in pistol cartridges. I find it to be a real issue to be given thoughtful consideration when developing loads and assessing their suitability under such loading conditions.

FWIW.

[RED BEAR]

I will say there is room to higher with the charge. As i don't own a chronograph i must go to a friends to check my velocity i don't do a lot of checking. Just shoot for fun so don't much care what the velocity is. If it is accurate is all that matters to me. Well as accurate as i can get with my old eyes. If your happy with the results then i say go for it. I would say 35 remington is right i am sure he knows more than i do about it. But if you are happy with a load thats all that matters.

[35remington]

Well it hurts nothing if it meets your needs. But it also hurts nothing to go faster within firearm limits and more consistency is obtained so I do that. Being particular about such things is a result of having tried various loads and establishing a preference after observing the results.

Using the same 1.6 grain charge of Red Dot under a 98 grain RCBS cast wadcutter would see a gain of about 80-100 fps in velocity and a considerable reduction in velocity variation. This from a 4-4.25” barrel. If I can run a WC around 700 fps I am happy with that for most 32 Long use.

[psweigle]

The only mold I have for 32 is the lee 100 grain round nose. With range scrap lead it drops at .3115 from this mold. I powdercoated the first batch, and recovered a few of them. The powder coating was intact, but they are most definitely way undersized as the rifling in print is very shallow. But for knocking over bottles it works. Not the optimal boolit for the old hand ejector. Looks like another mold is in the near future for the old girl. Was really hoping this would work for both guns, but that is rarely the case. It will work for now as its what I have to work with.

[Green Frog]

The only mold I have for 32 is the lee 100 grain round nose. With range scrap lead it drops at .3115 from this mold. I powdercoated the first batch, and recovered a few of them. The powder coating was intact, but they are most definitely way undersized as the rifling in print is very shallow. But for knocking over bottles it works. Not the optimal boolit for the old hand ejector. Looks like another mold is in the near future for the old girl. Was really hoping this would work for both guns, but that is rarely the case. It will work for now as its what I have to work with.

If you want to go cheap, the tumble lube WC and SWC moulds from Lee ( think they still make them) seem a little larger... in fact I have to size the ones given my by Dale53 from his moulds DOWN to .313 so they'll go through my tight chambered K-32. It sounds like they might be just your huckleberries. Be sure and let me know how those MP hollow points work for you... they were sized to .313 in a Star sizer with (heated) Carnauba Red (I call it "Panama Red" ;) )

Froggie

PS If you want to try out a sample of those bullets, I think I still have some from the last batch Dale53 gave me...

[35remington]

An as cast diameter of .315” is about optimum for the 32 revolvers, especially those of any vintage. My Colt is a little tighter than my Smith but .315” works in both.

.311” would definitely be a detriment in my revolvers with gas cutting and accuracy loss.

[35remington]

Lee makes an appropriate diameter SWC of about .314” or a little more as cast but unfortunately has discontinued the WC.

[RED BEAR]

The only mold I have for 32 is the lee 100 grain round nose. With range scrap lead it drops at .3115 from this mold. I powdercoated the first batch, and recovered a few of them. The powder coating was intact, but they are most definitely way undersized as the rifling in print is very shallow. But for knocking over bottles it works. Not the optimal boolit for the old hand ejector. Looks like another mold is in the near future for the old girl. Was really hoping this would work for both guns, but that is rarely the case. It will work for now as its what I have to work with.

You might try a strip of heat tape. Or you could lap it .

[psweigle]

I've been thinking about the lee 314 90 grain semi wad cutter.

Froggie, I will let you know for sure how they do. And I truly appreciate you giving me them to try.

[Green Frog]

CORRECTION: They still make the SWC (actually a sort of truncated cone) but they no longer list the wad cutter, which is a pity since that was a promising design. The remaining mould is the TL314-90 SWC and as the model number suggests it is advertised as running about 90 grains. This design is pretty close to my old favorite swaged bullet that Hornady used to make in that size. If I didn't have so many moulds in 32 already, I'd probably get one of those moulds myself, especially if I wanted to tumble lube (or PC as you seem to be working toward, psweigle)

NOTE: I typed this up over an hour ago, but for some reason it never posted... I'll try again. In the meanwhile I just went down to the shop and sized 50 of the SWCs and loaded a sample of 25 of them over 2.3 gr Bullseye. When I compared one of these bullets to my small stash of Hornady SWCs, it appears the nose is about 1/8" or so shorter on the Lee cast than the Hornady swaged bullet.

Froggie

[psweigle]

Sounds like a winner then.

[GhostHawk]

That .314 90 gr truncated cone works well in a huge variety from .300BO, .30-30 on up to the .32's.
You may want to size down to .311 for 30 calibers.

For my .32's I shoot that, and a few 00 buckshot run through a .314 sizing die for plinker loads. Either alone or with a 30 cal buckshot below it. Both shoot well. But mostly it is that little .314 TC. She just works in everything.

[psweigle]

Thank you Ghosthawk, I had been wanting to do the round ball in 32 long. I was so busy messing with the lee boolit I forgot to try the round ball.

[Green Frog]

Update: I talked to Dale53 on the phone last night and he reminded me that his Lee TL SWC mould is a 6-banger from a now long-discontinued run. The design is still available in a 2 cavity, but of course the bigger mould blocks seem to be made from a different, better alloy so I can't speak for the results one would get out of these new ones. Dale's mould drops the bullets out at a scant .313"... my Lyman sizing die labeled 313 just barely kisses most of the circumference and doesn't seem to crush the TL grooves at all. Next time I venture to the Northwest Territories, Dale has promised I can make a big run of bullets with his mould :cbpour: so I'll have a supply to supplement my dwindling stash of the discontinued swaged Hornady SWC bullets I liked so much. ;-)

I'm still looking with great favor on the old Ideal 313445. I honestly think that has the potential to be my go-to bullet in that weight range (90-100 gr) among all the bullets I use. It casts easily and close to the desired size, can be lubed and sized readily, and seems to perform well in every 32 S&W L and H&R I've used it in. When time and opportunity permit, I'd like to try it with the "Dot Powders," both Red and Green to see how it does. Has anyone had experience along those lines? :coffeecom

As I said earlier, although the 32 lacks the widespread popularity of the 38 family of revolvers, I'm finding that with a little digging one can discover a world of possibilities for it, and in reality your opportunities are limited only by the time and money you're willing to spend. I haven't even started trying to see what I can do with HBWCs or their DE and button nosed brethren! I've got those moulds waiting their turn as well. So many reloads, so little time! :roll:

Froggie

[Larry Gibson]

My 6 cavity Lee TL314-90-SWC drop the bullets at .314 - .315 depending on alloy.

[psweigle]

Hmmm. Green dot for 32 mag and 90-100 grain boolits? Sounds interesting. I don't have any but I have a shooting buddy that does, and wants some of my HS-7.

[Larry Gibson]

"I'd like to try it with the "Dot Powders," both Red and Green to see how it does. Has anyone had experience along those lines?"

Yes I do, have pressure test data for 32 S&WL with Green Dot under the TL314-90-SWC but since previous posted data was totally misconscrewed (pun intended) by a certain individual I'll not post it.

[35remington]

If you don’t mind, Larry, please do.

More information is always good, and I could use the data points. My Good Judgement Fu is up and running and that is all that could be expected when discussing testing data results in regard to pressure.

[Green Frog]

Larry, I’d like to see that data too. I really want to find some “regular loads” for my 32 S&W L guns and would be somewhat interested to see what Green Dot has to offer. Dale53 has offered to let me cast a pile of those Lee SWCs in his 6-banger, and from the standpoint of weight and case volume, I think I can also arrange to duplicate the interior ballistics with my 313445 bullet as well.

Froggie

[psweigle]

Yes Larry, I too am interested in your thorough testings.

[Larry Gibson]

Here is the test data for Alliant Green Dot in the 32 S&WL cartridge with the Lee TL314-90-SWC bullet cast of COWW + 2% tin.

The test firearm was a Contender with a 10" bull barrel chambered in 32 H&R. Pressure and velocity testing was via the Oehler m43 PBL. The strain gauge was mounted over the chamber at the location specified by SAAMI for Transducer measurements.

Loading of the cartridges was done on a Pacific single stage press using Hornady dies. Powder charges were set using an Ohaus scale but the charges were thrown with a Lee Powder thrower (it throws the smaller charges of flake powders very uniformly). Each test charge had 10 cartridges loaded for testing. However, given the nature of strain gauge pressure testing, at the lower end pressures the 1st charge (1.9) gr gave only 7 pressure measurements of the 10 shots tested. The other 3 shots gave inconsistent results and did not record. That most often is from too low a psi or too long a barrel time (>2 milliseconds).

Cases were R-P 32 S&WL cases.
Primers were CCI 500s
The bullets were TL in LLA, dried thoroughly and then sized at .312 (required for chambering in the tighter Contender chamber).
The bullets were seated to the first lube groove and a mild roll crimp applied there. OAL of the loaded cartridges was 1.177".

The charges of Alliant Green Dot chosen to test were; 1.9, 2.1, 2.3, 2.5, 2.7, 2.9 and 3.1 gr based on the old Hercules Powder Guide that list a charge of 2.7 gr Green Dot in the 32 S&WL under a 98 gr lead bullet.

[Note; I am not suggest any starting load nor any max load. I am not recommending any load to anyone. I am not "hot rodding" the cartridge, just reporting the results of testing Green Dot powder in it under a 90 gr cast bullet. I am only presenting the test data from the charges tested as requested by several on this thread. You are free to use the data if you choose any way you want. Anyone else is also free to use the data any way they want to. The Contender I tested these loads in is entirely capable of handling the psi's generated w/o any damage to the firearm or danger to me or anyone else at the range when I was testing (actually was there by myself anyway). There is no "right" or "wrong" here, just facts. So, please, no PMs like that last one.]

It was 90 degrees during the test (firearm and ammo were shaded), humidity was 30% and the barometric pressure was 29.85.

Velocity was measured with the start screen at 15' from the muzzle. Screen spacing was 4'. The M43 PSB converts the screened velocity measurement to muzzle velocity and that is what is reported.

Test data;
[powder charge, pressure in psi, velocity in fps]

1.9 gr, 13,100, 846

2.1 gr, 13,900, 908

2.3 gr, 15,500, 963

2.5 gr, 17,000, 1004

2.7 gr, 17,800, 1051 [Note; This is close to the SAAMI MAP of the 32 S&W which is said to be safe for use in all 32 S&WL revolvers]

2.9 gr, 20,100, 1104

3.1 gr, 22,100, 1131

FYI;
The burning rate of Green Dot is faster than Unique and slower than Bullseye. The velocities listed are from the 10" closed breach barrel of the Contender. Of course the velocity will be much less in the small revolvers usually chambered in 32 S&WL. With similar loads of both Unique and Bullseye under this same bullet the velocity out of my 3" M30 S&W revolver run just about 200 fps less than the velocity of the same loads out of the 10" Contender.

[Green Frog]

Thanks, Larry! That’s exactly the kind of information I want and need. I can pick a place on that continuum to start, do my initial testing with my stud hoss Ruger Blackhawk, then find a mild, accurate load that works for me. Th at mould of Dale’s looks destined for a workout next time I venture into the NW Territories. :Fire:

Froggie

[psweigle]

Thank you Larry. I have a place to start now, in the sp101.

[psweigle]

Ok. Did some more loads with a different boolit provided to me by green frog. I hope to get to shoot them one day this week. Same 1.6 grains of red dot. And a few at 2.0 grains of red dot. I will chronograph the loads and do the powder position test as well.

[RED BEAR]

Ok. Did some more loads with a different boolit provided to me by green frog. I hope to get to shoot them one day this week. Same 1.6 grains of red dot. And a few at 2.0 grains of red dot. I will chronograph the loads and do the powder position test as well.

I believe your hooked. Got the 32 fever.

[psweigle]

I believe your hooked. Got the 32 fever.

Yup. Pretty sure I do as well. Could be worse I guess.

[JBinMN]

Pretty good topic there for a while. I don't even own a .32, although I have shot more than a couple.

Please be nice & return to the info that we all would like to see & keep the rest separate. I read post #40 a while back as quoted below & think some other folks may want to do as advised.

Hate to see a pretty decent topic with some decent info, relegated to the dumpster...
;)

Post#40:

Everyone slow down and take a breather. This is a great thread, if it goes off the rails it will be locked.

[No_1]

Thread cleaned up and reopened for discussion.

[JBinMN]

Thread cleaned up and reopened for discussion.

Nice!

It is a good decision by the Admin/Staff, even for those of us who are here just to learn more, and don't even play with the same stuff right now!
( Maybe later, though. ;) )

Thanks!
:)

[Larry Gibson]

Couple days ago I picked up a new pound of Red Dot and have some loaded under the Lee TL314-90 in both 32 S&W and 32 S&WL for pressure testing. Also picked up some old WRA and UMC 32 S&W along with a box of R-P 32 S&W to test. Decided to also test some GOEX 4fg and Cartridge BP in both cartridges. Will report when testing is done.

[waco]

I don't own a 32 anything but I have just started loading some H&G68's with Redot in .45ACP for a Kimber. A new powder for me in .45ACP
Interesting thread to say the least.

[Green Frog]

Thread cleaned up and reopened for discussion.

Thanks, No_1. The information contained in this thread and the quality of the ideas being exchanged by the legitimate participants make it valuable to those of us who actually spend time loading and shooting the various 32s. I for one plan to resume the discussion with a renewed positive tone.

For several years I’ve bemoaned the passing of Hornady’s swaged SWC FOR 32 S&W. I was further frustrated by the fact that the closest mould design I could find was Lee’s TL design and it wouldn’t work very well with my Lyman Lubri-Sizer. DUH![smilie=b: The swaged bullets did well with their own form of tumble lube (graphite and moly, IIRC) so why was I hung up on lube grooves? :veryconfu

It looks like as soon as I am mobile again I’ll be making the trek to the North West Territories again to visit Dale53 and do some ‘sperimenting. Then I’ll be able to come back and ‘splain how it really was a simple thing to do. :coffeecom At this point I think I’ll try and stick with tried-and-true loads of Bullseye then bring in the “Dots” to see whether I can establish equivalency. :coffee:

Now to get my new knee working at proper levels!! [smilie=w:
Froggie

[Larry Gibson]

Green Frog

I usually cast my TL314-90-SWCs with soft alloys, usually in the 98/1/1 to 97/1.5/1.5 range. They drop from my Lee mould at .314 or slightly over. I then TL them in LLA with a light coat, let dry thoroughly and push size through a Lee .314 die. Or, if another lube is desired, I size and lube in a Lyman 450 with a .314 H&I die. That leaves the TL grooves full of lube. They are used as such in most all my .31 cal rifles and a couple .30 cal rifles with larger throats. They are used as such in my S&W M30 and successfully sized down to .312 for use in my Ruger original run Single Six. They are also push through sized from .312 to .311 for use in tighter throated/chambered .30 cal rifles.

Lubing before any sizing leaves the small TL grooves filled with lube. Then sizing and further sizing in the steps mentioned the lube in the grooves does not allow the grooves to completely squish shut and/or swage away the lube grooves. The grooves are smaller when sized down to .311 but still contain sufficient lube that I've never had a leading problem even in longer barreled rifles at 1000 fps or less. I use mostly the LLA as I've found it to be sufficient for most applications with this bullet.

[Green Frog]

Thanks, Larry. I have one defining constraint on my sizing... the chambers of my recreated Model 16-3 are reamed to a specific .313" so that's what I'll use as my default setting when I set up sizing. If I go through all the steps I'm seeing unfold, I'll probably go to the talented and long-suffering Tom Crone (who does all sorts of specialty machine work for N-SSA shooters and puts up with my flights of fancy) and have him make up a Lee style die reamed to exactly .313" for one of my C-presses. It appears that Dale53 has developed a protocol for some LLA variant that he can apply quickly and have dry quickly. I'm thinking that if I only have to size bullets lubed in this way down .001" I may not even have to add more lube after. 8-)

I'm glad I'm having the opportunity to discuss this on this forum, so that I can organize the thoughts circulating between my hallucinations after surgery and the attendant medications. By having a focal point such as this, maybe I'll be able to keep some shred of mental function intact. I hope you the readers of my ramblings won't be too bored or offended by them. [smilie=w:



Froggie

[Larry Gibson]

Never tried it because I don't yet have a need for a .313 bullet but once they are lubed "as cast" I see no reason a sizing to .313 couldn't be done as easily as to .314(?). If I didn't have a 6 cavity Lee mould already I'd be with you having a multi-cavity (4 -6 cavity) mould made. Some prefer the heavier 98 - 118 gr bullets but the old standby weight for the 32 S&W and the 32 S&WL was an 88 gr bullet so the 90 gr Lee SWCs suit me fine. I also still have a couple hundred of the Hornady swaged SWCs to use. I also have a 311227 (90 gr RN) mould but haven't cast any with it yet.

If I want heavier loads I have the Lyman 313631 (105 gr GC'd SWC) and the 311316 (115 gr GC'd FN) for heavier magnum loads in the 32 H&R if I want them.

[Green Frog]

Larry, I’ve been able to find DC examples of the Ideal 313445 and 313492 along with a MP 105 gr RNHP and a HBWC, so I should be good to go, but I’ve liked loading that 90-95 gr SWC since Dale53 gifted me a box of the discontinued Hornady swaged bullets. They are just so easy to make up into accurate rounds, so I guess I won’t be satisfied until I have a mould for those too. 8-)

Of course I have a variety of heavier moulds for the H&R and FM, but it seems like the real sweet spot for the S&W L is in the 90-100 gr range. My “heavy” bullets run from the classic Ideal 3118 (@ 115 gr) to the big NOE adaptation of the same design that drops at 125 gr with COWW + 2% tin. I really need to stop chasing moulds and develop standard loads for the ones I’ve got, then send any extras down the road. :bigsmyl2:

I was somewhat surprised to find my 313445 bullets tearing ragged holes in fresh, dry targets instead of cutting the nice round holes I expected from a SWC. More experimentation is needed. :coffee:

Froggie

[Larry Gibson]

"I really need to stop chasing moulds and develop standard loads for the ones I’ve got, then send any extras down the road."

Now ain't that the truth.......:drinks:

[psweigle]

You guys are awesome.
Thank you no.1 for reopening this thread. Ive got more to earn.

[35remington]

Some chronographed velocities through a 4 inch Colt Police Positive.

I do a lot with the Lee disks, including the Micro Disk, sadly discontinued.

I will list as X.XX CC volumetric measure followed by the Lee claim for the (charge weight) from their table. Some of these I have not recently weighed, so view the charge weight as close but not exactly on. Usually thrown charge weight is a bit lighter than the claim, for understandable reasons. Velocities represent average of six shots.

RCBS 98 SWC:
O.32 CC (2.7) WST 809 fps average
0.30 CC (2.5) WST 775 fps average
0.21 CC (2.0) Bullseye 630 fps average

Lyman 313492
O.32 CC (2.7) WST 903 fps average....too much speed for my taste. Note velocity gain versus RCBS. Bullet is 10 grains lighter but also more deeply seated
0.30 CC (2.5) WST 850 average (12 shots). More comfortable with this one.

RCBS 98 WC
0.15 CC (1.8) Titegroup 712 average
0.24 CC (2.0) WST 760 average......a little faster than I prefer
0.21 CC (1.8) WST 690 average. Between these two at around 700-720 fps is where I want to be.
O.21 CC (2.0) Bullseye 701 average

By no means all I have to offer but a sample from the last range session a little over two months ago.

Note the velocity the RCBS WC gets with little charges of powder. Deeply seated. The RCBS 98 is actually the NOE clone of about 101 grains, and is the opposite of the RCBS WC. About the same weight, but much more shallowly seated. The RCBS SWC bullet needs a little more powder to get the same speed than some other 98 SWC and RN types that seat more deeply.

[35remington]

A tenth of a grain means a lot in this cartridge especially with wadcutters, so changes of any sort have potentially more effect on the actual velocity obtained. All the above was shot with PPU cases and WSP primers.

If results are gonna vary, the 32 Long will see that realized. Especially with wadcutters.

[psweigle]

Thank you for posting the wadcutter information. I may have to get some of those later on to try. I find them at gun shows occasionally.

[35remington]

Depending upon how you seat them, whether nearly flush or with some amount of bullet outside the case makes a big difference with wadcutters of the swaged variety. Target autoloaders use pretty much flush seated HBWC’s and get velocities equal to or greater than what I have posted using less powder.

Note that due to greater case wall thickness Starline does not recommend their cases be used with deeply seated wadcutters. Their cases also get somewhat more velocity with identical charge weights as compared to other brands for the same reason.

[35remington]

One other thing to note is powder differences that I can’t explain. Generally WST gets a little less velocity than Bullseye with the same charge weight and that holds true with the more shallowly seated bullets.

But with the WC’s and the claimed thrown weight in the charts 2.0 WST actually outruns 2.0 Bullseye by a fair amount. Hmm. Keep in mind, as I have said, that I am taking Lee’s word for what these disks are throwing in some instances. It may be Bullseye is throwing notably less than claimed or other such reason.

As case space is reduced differences between powder burn rates may go away...or get accentuated in a divergent direction, so beware, proceed carefully and for gosh’s sake get a chronograph so you get the speed you want to get and not the speed you hope you are getting based on someone else’s results that may differ due to one of the multitudinous reasons I have mentioned.

My results are a guide but not definitive because someone else uses different loading methods or components.

[psweigle]

I have starline brass. I will take your advice. Thank you.

[Green Frog]

35Remington,

Your posts do a good job of reinforcing a very important point. Since the 32 S&W L is such a small case with such a tiny "boiler room," even the smallest changes in case wall thickness, powder charge (or lot strength) can be very significant. When you load a 44 Magnum with 20 grains or so of some random powder, a charge variation of .2 grains or seating the bullet .10" deeper is no big deal. In the little 32 however, all the dimensions are so tiny that any variation at all can cause huge changes in pressure or performance. A good powder measure (checked with a scale) as well as appropriate powders (in conservative charges) are vital until you've got results for your gun. As a for instance, the difference between various wadcutters, hollow base vs solid, flush seated vs seated out, etc, etc can make a huge difference in pressure.

"Be careful out there!"

Froggie

[35remington]

The 32 Long case is the shortest case I can come up with where deeply seated wadcutters are commonly used.

From a four inch revolver a 38 Special can run a 148 wadcutter up to 870-900 fps at standard pressures depending upon powder, with only about 30-40 fps difference between Bullseye and Power Pistol. The slower powders don’t show a huge velocity improvement in such loads over the fast powders.

For wadcutters adhering to the SAAMI pressure spec the 32 Long can’t come close to that in terms of velocity for the same barrel length.....the shorter case and smaller capacity make that speed not possible.

[Larry Gibson]

35Remington's recommendation of "As case space is reduced differences between powder burn rates may go away...or get accentuated in a divergent direction, so beware, proceed carefully and for gosh’s sake get a chronograph so you get the speed you want" is a very good one as he relates probable case capacity differences between brass. It also is essential to pay attention to with respect to seating depth of various cast bullets. However, still be careful as the chronograph results may not tell all that is really going on psi wise, especially given the faster burning powders used in the 32 S&WL.

As I have mentioned numerous times in other threads seating depth is far more critical to pressures in handgun cases than many realize. I can give numerous examples but a recent test in the 357 Magnum may give a clear idea of how much pressure can vary given an identical load with the same bullet. A few months back I ran this pressure test to measure psi increase as the bullet was seated deeper;

Cartridge: 357 Magnum
Case: Winchester
Primer: CCI 500
Powder & charge: Alliant Green Dot - 5.0 gr.
Bullet: TL358-158-SWC
Alloy: COWW + 2% tin AC'd
Sized: .358
Lube: BAC

Test barrel: Contender 7.94"

Instrumentation: Oehler M43 PBL

Ambient temperature: 65 degrees
Humidity: 30%
Barometric pressure: 29.90

The velocity is fps as corrected via the M43 to the muzzle.
The AOL of the cartridge is listed.
Bullet seating depth was decreased .050" between tests.
Each bullet depth test consisted of a 9 shot test string.

AOL.........Velocity.........psi
1.632 1083 24,500 (bullet seated hard into leade)
1.582 1080 23,900
1.482 1139 32,500
1.432 1149 35,700

Note just a .150" difference in seating depth resulted in the psi jumping/increasing from 23,900 to 35,700! That was with the 357 case so we can expect the smaller 32 S&WL to be as critical. Also, if you have pulled any factory 88 gr RNL bullets from factory 32 S&W and/or the 32 S&WL you will see the swaged factory bullets are not seated very deep, not as deep as we seat most cast bullets. That's why I seat the Speer 98 gr WCs out to the 1st canalure groove and the TL314-90-SWC bullet out to the 2nd lube groove for my own loads. Sometimes in reporting test data I do seat them deeper but the AOL is always noted when I report the data.

[Thumbcocker]

FWIW is was gifted with several thousand factory 88 grain LRN boolits. they have a waxy graphity lube a slight concave base and measure .314.

[psweigle]

I had a chance to do some more shooting and the results were an eye opener.
The round ball load, unsized case with new primer and 1 grain of bullseye. This was a hoot. And I was surprised at how accurate it was.

The boolits from Mr. Green Frog. Mihec 314690 hollow point, starline sized and primed case, 1.6 grains red dot firm crimp. I only loaded six this way. I could tell right away that the old hand ejecter favored this boolit over the lee 100 gr round nose. The cases were no where near as smokey, and the recoil was more pronounced. I didn't have the chronograph set up, but I know the velocity was increased. This boolit was the proper diameter and what a difference. Point of aim and point of impact were good as well.

[psweigle]

Oh, and I did 6 with 2.5 grains of bullseye. Those were VERY clean cases upon ejection. They also shot much higher. Most anyone would much prefer this in their 32 s&w long.

[Green Frog]

That Mihec bullet is a real sleeper. You don't hear much about it, but not only was it available as a group buy, but I believe it is now a stock item for MP. One thing about it that surprised me was in my last test using up my remaining supply of them was that not only were they accurate, but they cut cleaner holes than the SWCs I was shooting in the same session. After all the bullet moulds I've bought and all the bullets and loads I've tried, this may end up being my "go to" bullet for routine loads for the 32 S&W Long. Who'da thunk it? :roll:

I'm in the process of arranging a trade for a Star sizer like the one I used at Casa 53 and a heater plate so I can lube with "Panama Red" (aka Carnauba Red) which is a HAARRD lube. 8-)

Froggie

[35remington]

More load data results.

The following was with R-P cases and WSP primers.

Same format as before (see other post) except in some cases the charges were weighed and not metered.

Lyman 313492 NOE clone 89 grain SWC-WC
1.8 Red Dot 680 fps
0.24 CC (2.3) Bullseye 805 fps.....fine field load seemingly fairly mild. Incidentally this gave about 20 inches of penetration in “gelatin equivalent” when tested for penetration.
0.27 CC (2.5) Bullseye 880 fps. About max for my use and a do not exceed charge per good advice from frequent users here that post soundly considered recommendations.

RCBS 98 WC
0.27 CC (1.9) Red Dot 745 fps getting close to about max for wadcutters of this type in terms of speed. A bit puzzled this outruns 2.0 Bullseye as they are normally close. But then...different cases, deeply seated bullets, and variations in actual thrown charge weight can account for this.

When I bought my first 32 Long revolver, the Smith Regulation Police, it came with a mixed bag of brass including Lapua, GECO, Remington, Winchester, etc.

Loading it indiscriminately as to brand with the same powder charge and shooting it over the chronograph did not exactly yield consistent and low velocity spreads.

Given the differences in brass that could occur (not saying that they all differ wildly, but some do, notably Starline, for example) I would not suggest mixing case brands. I have not done a detailed analysis of which brands are similar and which are different and the velocity increase or decrease that could be expected when changing from one brand to another. Except Starline.

I just noted when different case brands were in the cylinder extreme spreads in velocity increased. For that reason unless you know from past use which particular case brands give similar velocities I would not suggest mixing cases.

Despite the usual relative mildness of 32 Long pressures a number of that bag of mixed cases started splitting sooner than fresh brass could be expected to do. Older somewhat used brass gets brittle and should be viewed as suspect and potentially a waste of good reloading components, especially if composed of mixed old brass.

[35remington]

The 0.27 CC Micro cavity mentioned above actually meters Red Dot reliably as the cavity is wide but fairly shallow, its depth attenuated by a slider bar intended to reduce cavity volume. The width of the cavity overcomes the problems inherent to large flake powders. I cannot say it is an equivalent in terms of meterability to a finer granuled powder in these charge weights but it does work passably for general shooting, and I have a whole lot of Red Dot.

This is a way to use it, but at 1.9 grains a shot I won’t use it very fast. With the wadcutter bullet it is very speed/charge weight efficient and would serve for most 32 Long use at ranges I can hit something as opposed to lobbing one out there and hoping. Virtually any suitable load with the RCBS 98 WC shoots very well, and 700-750 fps is my desired velocity range.

[rintinglen]

That Mihec bullet is a real sleeper. You don't hear much about it, but not only was it available as a group buy, but I believe it is now a stock item for MP. One thing about it that surprised me was in my last test using up my remaining supply of them was that not only were they accurate, but they cut cleaner holes than the SWCs I was shooting in the same session. After all the bullet moulds I've bought and all the bullets and loads I've tried, this may end up being my "go to" bullet for routine loads for the 32 S&W Long. Who'da thunk it? :roll:

I'm in the process of arranging a trade for a Star sizer like the one I used at Casa 53 and a heater plate so I can lube with "Panama Red" (aka Carnauba Red) which is a HAARRD lube. 8-)

Froggie

The MP 314-640-100 is one of my two favorite molds for my 32's. I use it and the output of a 5 cavity NOE copy of the RCBS 32-98 SWC almost exclusively in everything 32 revolver except my 32-20"s. There I load the RCBS wadcutter boolit in loads meant for my Police Positive Special and the RCBS or MP molds for My Browning or Army Special--That Army Special is a gem. I use a load from the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No.1 that is higher than generally recommended today, but which shoots so darned well I refuse to tinker with it.

[psweigle]

More load data results.

The following was with R-P cases and WSP primers.

Same format as before (see other post) except in some cases the charges were weighed and not metered.

Lyman 313492 NOE clone 89 grain SWC-WC
1.8 Red Dot 680 fps
0.24 CC (2.3) Bullseye 805 fps.....fine field load seemingly fairly mild. Incidentally this gave about 20 inches of penetration in “gelatin equivalent” when tested for penetration.
0.27 CC (2.5) Bullseye 880 fps. About max for my use and a do not exceed charge per good advice from frequent users here that post soundly considered recommendations.

RCBS 98 WC
0.27 CC (1.9) Red Dot 745 fps getting close to about max for wadcutters of this type in terms of speed. A bit puzzled this outruns 2.0 Bullseye as they are normally close. But then...different cases, deeply seated bullets, and variations in actual thrown charge weight can account for this.

When I bought my first 32 Long revolver, the Smith Regulation Police, it came with a mixed bag of brass including Lapua, GECO, Remington, Winchester, etc.

Loading it indiscriminately as to brand with the same powder charge and shooting it over the chronograph did not exactly yield consistent and low velocity spreads.

Given the differences in brass that could occur (not saying that they all differ wildly, but some do, notably Starline, for example) I would not suggest mixing case brands. I have not done a detailed analysis of which brands are similar and which are different and the velocity increase or decrease that could be expected when changing from one brand to another. Except Starline.

I just noted when different case brands were in the cylinder extreme spreads in velocity increased. For that reason unless you know from past use which particular case brands give similar velocities I would not suggest mixing cases.

Despite the usual relative mildness of 32 Long pressures a number of that bag of mixed cases started splitting sooner than fresh brass could be expected to do. Older somewhat used brass gets brittle and should be viewed as suspect and potentially a waste of good reloading components, especially if composed of mixed old brass.
All I have are starine brass and a box of empty remington. The remington are reserved for the fun little round ball loads. I will be using starline for all cast loads. Very good information sir, thank you.

[35remington]

You are quite welcome. You could also use the Remington brass for the wadcutters of deeper seating depth.

The other thing I found useful are not just round ball loads, but double round ball loads. These because of seating depth generally should be used with wadcutter appropriate charges. I do not exceed about 720 fps with these and that is what they get with around 2 grains of Bullseye.

Two round balls weigh about the same as a single 98 grain bullet, and instead of shooting low like a single ball they hit to the sights. At 25-30 feet they hit about half of an inch apart and they do not carry as far as a regular bullet.

I have not yet shot a whole lot of critters with these but those I have folded up pretty quick. Sort of like shooting a wider bullet at something in terms of hit potential.

The balls should be seated such that the top ball is a little below its full diameter in the case so a crimp can be thrown into it to keep the ball in place under recoil.

[psweigle]

I may try that out. Thanks again.

[35remington]

246298

Hopefully this shows up. Double ball at 35 feet. Usually balls strike in a vertical line with dispersion varying with distance as one would expect.

[psweigle]

It showed up just fine. That's pretty darn close together for that distance.

[35remington]

They are usable at distances further than one might think depending upon the size of just what you are shooting at.

[psweigle]

Shot 100 32 s&w long today. 100gr lee round nose, powder coated. This time I worked with the sp101. 1.6gr of red dot is definitely too light of a charge, but, this boolit will work for sp101, just not for the hand ejecter.
The sp101 had a really good group.

As a side note, the American Eagle 100gr jacketed soft point factory loads are surprisingly easy to manage in the sp101. I may have to get some hornady 100gr xtp bullets to play around with.

[GhostHawk]

I also had similar results with double ball loads.

I my case I was loading over 2 gr of Red Dot, then drop in a #1 buckshot. Then a 00 buck that had been through a .314 sizer and crimp. They seem to stay put and at 20 feet my results were very much the same. 2 holes less than half an inch apart.

[Green Frog]

Shot 100 32 s&w long today. 100gr lee round nose, powder coated. This time I worked with the sp101. 1.6gr of red dot is definitely too light of a charge, but, this boolit will work for sp101, just not for the hand ejecter.
The sp101 had a really good group.

As a side note, the American Eagle 100gr jacketed soft point factory loads are surprisingly easy to manage in the sp101. I may have to get some hornady 100gr xtp bullets to play around with.

Other than being a little under powered, what other problems did you have with your round nosed lead bullets in your hand ejector? It seems like they would work well. I have to admit though that the only round nosed moulds I have in that cavity are for the 32 S&W ("short") in about 85 grain weights. I don't load them all that much!

Froggie

[psweigle]

They cast way undersized. They drop 311 with my alloy and come out 312 with the powdercoating. A recovered boolit shows that they do not have a complete seal. Very shallow rifling impressions on one side. The cases are very smoky as well. The sp101 recovered boolits have more defined rifling impressions and the cases are cleaner. This leads me to believe the boolit fits the sp101 but not the hand ejector.

[psweigle]

Oh, forgot to mention, the powder coating was intact on the sp101, and it was burned off the base and the weak rifling side of the hand ejector boolits.

[psweigle]

Casted up 100 more for powder coating. Going to load these, 10 at 1.8gr, 10 at 2.0gr 10 at 2.2gr and 10 at 2.4gr with the red dot, for use in the sp101.

Also going to do the same ladder test with bullseye. But I already know 2.3-2.5 seems to be the sweet spot for 100gr.

[Minaprob]

Great thread a lot of good data.

[psweigle]

Finally got to shoot the red dot loads for the sp101. 2.0gr and 2.4gr were the most accurate. Perfect primers and easy extraction on all tested loads.
All loads had mild recoil and the cases were cleanest above 2.0gr.
Still have to get a different mold for the hand ejecter, so I can PROPERLY use red dot for it. As it needs a .314 boolit, the lee 100 grain is too small at .312 after powder coating.

[35remington]

Yes very much agree. My Hand Ejector likes about a .315” bullet and those that cast at .313” from an oddball lopsided 313492 I got at a gun show (cast out of round) showed severe gas cutting on the undersized .313” portion.

The larger ones showed no such tendency. Wet phone books are good to examine your bullet and assess how they are doing. In addition, penetration in properly soaked and stacked wet phone books is pretty much exactly half of what the same bullet will do in gelatin.

The Reader’s Digest version of extensive testing done for penetration is that just about any solid bullet at any reasonable velocity of 700 fps and up will exceed to easily exceed minimum FBI standards for penetration. The flatnosed bullets penetrate straight and deep and the RN examples tend to turn sideways at some point in their travels, and the RN will flip and go base first in gelatin.

I tend to prefer the WC and flatnosed types but really would not feel completely helpless if I had a 32 loaded with 98 RN at 800 fps if push came to shove and that was what was available. Somewhat to my surprise the Privi Partisan ammo in factory loaded guise came within 25 fps of that. Remington factory does about 720 over a number of different lot numbers and I would prefer to flatpoint that or any RN before using it if I could.

[psweigle]

I agree totally. A round nose is just for plinking. At least that is all I'm using it for. I was able to recover a few of the undersized slugs and there was most definitely signs of flame cutting. The powder coating was burned of of one side. No evidence of this in the sp101 what so ever.

[Larry Gibson]

Might try the Lee TL314-90-SWC. Mine drop at .315 with scrap alloy. It's proven to be a very good bullet in my .32 revolvers.