.380 Rook heel mould arrives

[JeffinNZ]

Team.

On Saturday my new heel bullet mould from CBE arrived from my .380 Rook.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Rook%20rifle%20project/DSCN0263.jpg

134gr in 40-1 alloy.
.379 on the driving band.
.365 on the heel.

The heel is larger in girth than I expected for seating in .358 necks but as Jim copied this bullet from an original I guess this is a reflect of the very thin necks on original cases.

For seating I have given all of my shortened .38 SP brass a goodly champer with my Lyman VLD tool. A small amount of lube is applied to the heel to help it slip then I seat using the mouth of my .32-20 charging die (perfect fit). The bullet expands the case mouth slightly so the final step to get the round to chamber is to pop it into my .375 lubesizer die in the Lyman 4500. I run the round in upside down just enough that the neck sizes back down parallel and the round chambers. Bullet sizes at the same time. Apply some lube by hand and hey presto.

Off to the range soon.

[exile]

I am interested in your project but ignorant of the facts. What do you shoot this in and why? How much do you shorten your .38 special cases to do it? What kind of load do you shoot through it? Looks like a beautifully made mold to me.

Exile

[longbow]

Did you ever try the partial paper patching Jeff?

[JeffinNZ]

EXILE: It's for an English .380 long cartridge for a Rook rifle I bought the other week. .38 SP cases shortened to 0.945. Shot up to 4.8gr Unique today and they shot TERRIBLE. Really looking for a BP load for club shoots and also shot Swiss 3Fg today and that shot MUCH better.

LONGBOW: Not yet. Want to give this wee beastie a fair go first.

[missionary5155]

I could see this boolit working real nice in my old Ballard 38 long for chasing wabbits ...

[NoDakJak]

Good morning Jeff: Nice looking boolit that you now have for the "Wee Beastie". Should work well once you find the proper load. I noticed in your picture that there is no lube apparent. Are you dipping them in LLA or something else? Unique should work well in that caartridge but 4.8 grains seems to be a bit stout. The last 360 #5 Rook that I loaded for appreciated a load almost a grain lighter. Actually it shot best with a case full of Pyrodex P. It just did not seem to want to shoot black at all but that may have been my almost total ignorance of the nuances of black. Keep us posted. Neil

[Harry O]

Jeff: You might want to read the second half of my report on the 41 Long Colt at:

http://harryo.sixshootercommunity.org/

From my experience, you need the fastest powder possible to make a heel-base work. BP works best for me, but Bullseye is the best smokeless powder.

You should be able to cast even softer than 40:1 with your mould. Although I started with 40:1, I have cut that down to about 1 to 1-1/2 oz in 10lbs of pure lead. I cannot do that with hollow-base bullets, but it is easy with heel-base moulds. The softer, the better. The rear of the heel-base has to expand, too.

You should also try to get a crimper. No conventional set of loading dies will crimp a heel-base mould. Your bullet looks a lot like the Lyman 386177 and Ballisti-cast mould that I use and should be as accurate.

[exile]

Some guys have all the fun. What distance would you shoot that at in a club match? Something close to fifty yards?

Exile

[JeffinNZ]

NODAKJAK: I hand apply lube to the bullet. The photo round is a dummy only.
HARRY: Many thanks. Have ready prior to getting the mould but will re read.
EXCILE: Mostly 50m/55y. Out to 130y for gongs.

[Harry O]

Using 1 to 1-1/2 oz of tin to 10lbs of lead gives a Bhn of 5.2 to 5.5. That allows the base to expand easily to touch the rifling.

Crimping was absolutely necessary for me. My first crimper was made from an electricians stripping/crimping tool. That made one of the largest improvements in accuracy of anything I did (other than going from Unique to to BP). The slower the powder, the more it needs crimping. Just turning the flare straight was not enough for me. Usually, Unique is the "go to" powder for me whenever I am trying handgun loads. It completely failed with both heel and hollow-base bullets in the 41LC.

[JeffinNZ]

Thanks Harry. I am off to the hardware store to get me a crimper to butcher.

[scrapcan]

Have any of you tried to use a cannelure tool to put a crimp on this type of round? You might be able to fashion one out of a tubing cutter if you can find a way to make the cutter wheel less sharp or finely toothed. Or if you have a true cannelure tool try that.

[JeffinNZ]

Some good results today. Group approaching 1 inch at 25m using BP and still not crimping. Buying a cable crimper tomorrow for modification.

HARRY: My 40-1 alloy is 7.8 BHN. I have 'stick on wheel weight' alloy at 7.1 BHN. Is it worth me going to the softer mix? Even with the small amount of lube the bullet carries and the less than perfect bore there is no sign of any leading.

[Harry O]

If you are getting good accuracy, don't change anything.

You absolutely need a crimp with smokeless powder. Accuracy is dismal without a crimp and it gets worse the slower the powder. BP will improve slightly with a crimp (at least in my experience with the 41LC). However, it is fast enough by itself (it is an explosion rather than a burn) that a crimp does not have nearly as much effect as it does with smokeless.

I started out with a 40:1 mix. It worked MUCH better than those that were harder. Some of the bullets I originally bought were linotype hard. They patterened rather than grouped. Later, I got moulds that duplicated the linotype bullets. I cast them in 40:1. Going softer made a big difference with most of them. Most of my testing was with 40:1. Going leaner on the tin (making it softer) brought very small improvements in accuracy. The main reason I do it is because I am cheap.

[JeffinNZ]

Thanks Harry. I too am cheap!!!! :-D[smilie=1:

[Bent Ramrod]

Jeff,

I use the Ideal 358160 heeled boolit in my .38 Long, lubed in Lee Liquid Alox and seated without crimp in trimmed back .357 Magnum cases. It seems to like 3.3 gr Unique, 3.5 gr of SR-4756 or 9.0 gr 4227. I use small rifle primers. The boolits are cast of melted .22 bullets, BHN 5-6 last I checked.

The loads do 2" or less for me at 50 yards and from offhand shoot very closely to where the barrel sights are regulated.

I'll have to try a crimp sometime. Could a .38 Spl Lee Factory Crimp Die be shortened and polished out enough to allow the outside lubricated sides of the boolit to pass through but still crimp the mouth of the case on the heel as the shell holder touches the bottom of the die?

[JeffinNZ]

Yes, the factory crimp die would work. If crimping works for me the way Harry has suggested it will I thought I might get a .38 Super factory crimp die and shim my shell holder to match the .380 case length.

[Harry O]

I originally started out with a modified electricians crimping/stripping tool. It worked OK, but was not very handy.

Later, I had Lee make a custom crimping tool for the 41LC. You have to send them a sample of the case and bullet along with $25 or $30 (can't remember which) and they will make you one that fits. Make sure that you specify a "collet" type factory crimp die since they make more than one kind. I got the wrong one first, but they took it back and made a new one (and a correct one) fairly quickly.

[Bent Ramrod]

Thanks, Jeff and HarryO. I'll need to get one in .32 Long RF as well. The heels in both the .38 and .32 stick in the uncrimped shells tight enough for careful range handling out of a plastic ammo box, but they do pop out if the box gets turned over.

[Harry O]

Here are a couple of pictures (if I can figure out how to post them).

The first one is two of my best heel-base bullets in their cases and crimped. The left side shows the maximum crimp possible with the custom Lee crimping tool. I usually do not have to crimp this much. The right side shows the results of crimping with the modified electrical stripping/crimping too. The "huge" hair is from my wife's cat.

The next one is a picture of the two crimping tools.

[JeffinNZ]

Thanks Harry.

Shot this today at 25m. Fired one fouler to begin with then this is the next three.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Rook%20rifle%20project/DSCN0325.jpg

I think I will pursue this load and hope to shoot the wee rifle in the BP shot this Sunday.

[LEALLC]

Their is an easier way to make ammo for the 380 rook why not use .357/ 148gr.HBWC they will obterate to the bore with 3.0 gr. bullseye it is a lot easier than going thru the trouble of heeled bullets. sounds like more work and less shooting.

[w30wcf]

JeffinNZ,

Neat cartridge. Thank you for the report. :)

Stepping back in time about 110 years, Rifleite 250 was recommended for reloading the .38 Long among others. Interstingly it is a "bulk" smokeless granulated powder and the charges recommended fill the capacity of the case below the bullet.

I don't have a .38 Long but I have loaded it in the .22 Hornet and .25-20 and it has worked very well for being 110 years old and still produces the velocities indicated on the can.

As was mentioned, a good crimp is needed with smokeless and that is in bold on the can.

I have been working with Swiss BP in the .22LR and 32 Colt which use heeled bullets and have found that with no crimp, it works very well.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/Rifleite250.jpg

Have fun.
w30wcf

[LuckyLes]

Their is an easier way to make ammo for the 380 rook why not use .357/ 148gr.HBWC they will obterate to the bore with 3.0 gr. bullseye it is a lot easier than going thru the trouble of heeled bullets. sounds like more work and less shooting.
Hi LEALLC,
Have you actually loaded this recipe and tried it? I tried these with BP and managed to blow the centre out of the wadcutters leaving a sleeve of lead in the bore.
Regards
Les

[bruce drake]

wonderful shooting Jeff! It is nice to get an antique shooting like that again isn't it!

Bruce

[btreanor]

Tallman Industries in Canada makes crimping tools for the .380 Long and it should work for the rook rifle cartridge, too. I've bought from him before and he's a very nice guy. Here's his website:www.tallmanindustries.ca

[superc]

The Goex web page PDFs (rifle and pistol) at http://www.goexpowder.com/load-chart.html suggest 10 grains for the pistol and looking at the listing for the 360 I would say 15 gr should be about right..