"Managing Pain Without Opioids- Changing Patient Perceptions"

[Thundarstick]

This subject was alluded to in another thread, but I thought it deserves its own.

The fact that opioid use appears to be leading to users being less tolerant of pain, and I wondered how long it would take to move into practice. I open my company E mail this morning and there it is, a seminar on moving away from opioids for long term pain management!

I wonder how this is going to be received by the public? What do some of you who are on pain management think? What have you seen happen in family or friends who have been on long term opioid pain management?

[Wayne Smith]

Some of my clients are struggling mightily with it - and so far succeeding. So far my pain is controlled and contained through the use of a back brace.

That seminar sounds like the one I attended earlier this year.

[MrWolf]

I have been on the same dosage for about four years now out of probably ten years. It does not work as well as it used to which could either be tolerance or my condition deteriorated which is probably what it is. As it is, I am still up every hour or so every night. Wonder if whomever wrote the seminar is in constant pain or someone just saying it is all in your mind. I would not wish my pain on my worst enemy.

[GhostHawk]

My wife has been on Codine 3 for 14 years. She got off twice. First one was a real corker.
After some 3 months clean she came to me, broke down. "I don't want to live like this!"

Ok, so I encouraged her to go to a PA that has long history with the both of us, but who is out of network.

She had tried 7 different doctors, none would perscribe it.

Our PA did, as long as she was seen 3-4 times a year. 160$ out of pocket. Ins won't touch it.
Ok, do it.

Then 6 months later the insurance company gave her instead of her usual 180 tabs for 90 days. Gave her 14 tabs and said no more for 3 months. Hence the second withdrawl. This one was easier. Helped that she was retired. If she had a bad day she stayed in bed till noon.

Then she came to me. Bill the insurance won't pay for my Codine 3's. Yep, knew that.
43$ for 3 month supply if we pay for them ourselves.

Cindy, eventually they will close that loophole as well. But what the heck. Go for it. Your covered by Wild Bill.

She still deals with pain every day. I know I have a fairly high pain tolerance, and I don't think I could live with hers for 2 weeks without checking out.

I see no sign of her tolerance descreasing. For her the Codine just helps to remove it enough from front and center of your mind to where she can tune it out.

Most of this is unprovable by scientific measurement.

All I know is this. My Cindy on Codine 3's is a gentle compasionate loving person.
Cindy without, think grizzly bear on a bad hair day with missing cubs. Stay OUT of her way. She will rip you a few one and tear off your arm and beat you to death with it.

[bikerbeans]

The ONLY reason opiod use is under attack is the big drug companies don't make high enough profits on the sale of opiods. If opiods are gone then it easier to sell their new designer drugs. Also, opiods complete with medical marijuana, another cash cow for the rich.

BB

[WinchesterM1]

My wife is a nurse and I have a bad back, my wife told me to take 400mg of ibuprofen and 400mg of Tylenol at the same time every 6 hours and that’s is what works for me when I’m in a lot of pain it doesn’t kill the pain 100% but it makes it tolerable

[1911sw45]

I been to them and don't trust them. Like any government program its no good!

[mattw]

My wife was almost killed in '06 in a car accident that was not her fault. They guy almost go both my kids as well. 14 broken ribs, both feet and ankles, 5 closed skull fractures, 2 cracked vertebrae, several bones in 1 hand and 12 surgeries later she is in lots of pain and suffers moderate TBI.

With her TBI, if she does not sleep she does not function. The best thing that she has found is a high dose of major opioids before bed, she will sleep 4 to 6 hours this way and can keep her brain functional. If she gets to tired, it is off to dysfunctional lands and 14 to 16 hours of medicated sleep.

My point, if her pain meds at bed were taken away... I am not sure she could choose to live. Our 2 girls, 12 and 16 have been what has driven her to keep her life as near normal as possible. I think that medical weed would be a huge help for her TBI and pain, but in this state it could cost us a lot. Firearms ownership being the biggest thing, we both love to shoot and have a decent collection that would be taken in a heart beat since we are legal owners and a huge part of the problem in IL.

[jmort]

Tylenol and ibuprofen
NSAIDS are bad mojo
A one-two for your kidneys and liver and other below average side-effects
That is an effective combo for pain
Morphine does nothing to harm the body except cause constipation
We have thrown the baby out with the bath water becase of loser addicts
Sad really

[Rick Hodges]

I find the original post's theory interesting, and alarming ….. it has long been known that opioids and other addictive drugs create a tolerance to the drug....it takes more and more to have the desired effect. I am not at all sure that the patient builds an intolerance to the pain.
My point is we used to see the drug as the source of the problem, (it loses effectiveness with continued use). Now it is the patient's fault (decreased pain tolerance) and not the drugs? It feels like a dangerous shift in emphasis that does not bode well for the patient, nor for pain management in general. We went through this ridiculous way of treating people...IE refusing morphine and opiates to terminal cancer patients because the might become addicted. Where is the balance point?

[Markopolo]

I would say to this,

Horse Puckey. I have had my back broken in 2 places, and have Harrington rods and pins all over the place. I take way way less opioids then what I should take. I allow myself 1 tramadol or maybe 2 per morning and have been on this regiment for about 8 years. I do not want some long distance person who doesn’t live with what I live with telling me how to live with my afirimities. It works for me. I agree with what Ghosthawk says. It removes enough of my pain in the morning so I can go out, Hunt, fish, cut firewood, mushroom hunt, fix the truck, work on the roof, mill lumber and build. It removes enough of my pain so it is out of my center focus, and can then put the pain more in the background. Yes I know when I have forgotten to take my pill, and my body reminds me, but I am extremely disciplined about it though. No matter how bad it gets in the afternoon, or the evening, or how bad the demons come at night while I am trying to sleep, I don’t allow myself any other comfort. Just once in the morning. I have tried every nerve drug there is, and nothing touches it. So I use the tramadol, a synthetic opioid, once per day, and I have my somewhat quality subsistence life and can do most things the doc tells me not to do, but are required by the type of life I lead. Yes, I gimp around in the afternoon, sometimes bent over a cane, sometimes I don’t or can’t even get out of my chair in the afternoon, but I will not surrender to addiction or pain, or become a junkie cuz I do what the doc’s say I should do. Those are my choices. Some days I don’t do a heck of a lot, and some days I do more then I ever done before. I don’t do other drugs, not even legal pot, I don’t drink except a beer after cutting firewood. Horse Puckey to those that say I can’t do what works for me. I dont sell my pills, I don’t share them, and I don’t allow myself to slip into full bore addiction due to the lessening of tolerance. I guess After 7 spinal surgeries, we will see if they take away my one small comfort. At least I am walking again. So far, due to my history, nobody is attempting to change my methods. I hope not. It’s all about discipline I guess...

I may be ranting. I apologize.

Marko

[Beagle333]

I have been using Percodan (Aspirin and Oxycodone Hydrochloride) on and off for 30 years this year. It is what I need to bring the pain down to a level where I can continue about my day and not have the pain dominating my consciousness, and it also dulls it just enough for me to get some sleep at night. I don't use it every day, only as needed. I might use it for 15 days in a row, then take a 5 day break (as directed by my pain management doctor), and then I might not need it for 6-8 months at times. But I have taken it on a regular basis for the last 2+ years and I will need some proof that a replacement works as well or better than opioids before I'm willing to give it up. It's not easy to get, even now. I have to fill out more questions than I do to buy a handgun.

[EDG]

First Darvocet, Darvon, or other propoxyphene drugs were outlawed. The FDA claims that propoxyphene was related to more deaths than the opiods at the time. Now that we have had a lot of people switch over to opiods and die I am not sure that the FDA can still claim that Darvocet kills more people than the opiods.
I know that I took Darvocet for many years and it was effective plus I never seemed to have an withdrawal issues nor did it clog me up. If I take hydrocodone the stuff makes me itch and I often have a bad attitude while taking it.

It appears the health care industry does not really want to cure many of these chronic pain causing conditions. They would put themselves out of business if they did. We are sort of trapped by the conflict of interest that exists. The money makers would rather have everyone addicted so they have a guaranteed source of revenue. Even if you have none of these health issues you are still paying out the nose. While the patient on medicare covers 20% or so of the cost you pay the other 80%. So many times a medicare patient will pay $180 month for all their meds. Expensive right? The government, using your tax money, may be paying over $1000 a month and that is for many millions of retired folks.

[DougGuy]

I guess I am one of the lucky ones that doesn't need pain management regularly. They loaded me up with opioids when I had tonsil cancer in 2013, which I stashed and do hoard religiously, but by the time I had surgery for lung cancer in 2018 attitudes had changed drastically and it was like pulling hens teeth to get written for a handful of 2mg dilaudid.

When I was in the hospital after surgery they had a demerol pump all I had to do was push the button every 15mins and bang it would go IV. When I got home I took 12mg hydro the first day, 10 the next, 7.5 the next, 5mg next day, down to 2mg then nothing. It worked. They tried me on gabapentin and celebrex in the hospital and let me tell you they both sucked. Had me where I couldn't even walk without the whole hallway jumping around with every step. I do well with opioids as I am keen on not getting hopelessly addicted to them but then I have never had chronic pain to deal with either. They have their place and I don't think any amount of medical meandering is going to eliminate them completely.

I can and will say this.. Once diagnosed with lung cancer I employed the Rick Simpson method of using high thc extract cannabis oil in conjunction with chemo to manage any mets after surgery, I found the oil definitely helped me wean myself off the opioids very quickly, it is an efficient pain manager, and it boosts appetite. This ain't the cbd oil you can get everywhere nowdays, this is full extract, comes from the buds, stems, whole plant. This is the stuff that is needed to kill cancer. Over the counter cbd will not do it.

I had a skull to thigh PET/CT scan last week, 6mo after surgery, I eagerly await the findings and pray for a clean scan.

[Markopolo]

Prayers sent Doug!!!

[Land Owner]

We've turned to the alternate Chinese medicine of acupuncture for pain relief with excellent results. My spousal unit had rotator cuff tendonitis. Perhaps this isn't the "same" as broken backs, ribs, and neck, but it debilitated her professional music career as a Classical Pianist. We sought acupuncture rather than the mind numbing opioids, which the doctors were willing to prescribe. Miracle of miracles the acupuncture WORKED the very first time and she has had no relapse, but a few follow up pin cushion sessions, since.

I took my arthritic and fluid swollen knee, 2X normal size, to the acupuncturist. I became the pin cushion for a change. It helped slightly and the insertion of the pins WAS NOT A BIG DEAL.

something to try. it could not hurt. it might help.

[beechbum444]

I've watched this unfold for years SSNRI (selective seritonin and norepineprine reuptake inihiitors) do a great job at treating chronic pain but it's an off label use . They are FDA cleared to treat depression .it appears that most of society doesn't want to be labeled as depressed......a taboo subject . Watch the time intervals on nsaids and dosage .... they can damage kidneys

[Walks]

I feel your pain, because I share it too. 21 years of it. Feel off a ladder, busted both knees, rt collarbone, cracked 3 vertebra and wrecked 7 discs.
I've had 3 knee surgeries, 1 shoulder surgery and I don't know how many things done to my spine. Darvon was great, Vicodin was real good. Ibuprofen and Tylenol sucks. Norco helps, but I don't take it every day.

In the Winter it's heating Pads in the recliner, in Summer it's icepacks.

Acupuncture WAS GREAT. But when Governor Scharzenegger left office He signed a bill that GUTTED Worker's Comp. We now have 10% of what we did have. No Acupuncture, Physical Therapy everY 2-3 years, an epidural about 18 months. Synvisc injections for the knees about once every 2-3 years. NO KNEE REPLACEMENTS, NO SHOULDER REPLACEMENT.

Can't take Norco at night to sleep, it keeps me awake. So I sometimes take them at dinner, not every day. But just to dull the edge of the knives that are always in my back.

If they take that away, I'll never do anything again.

[MaryB]

9 surgeries on joints since 2006, one low back, one neck to do a 2 level fusion, right rotator cuff twice, right wrist carpal tunnel twice, right thumb detach the tendon and shorten it then reattach, right knee scraped out, left hip nerve tumor removed... on top of osteoarthritis all up and down my spine and in both shoulders and hips, spine is slowly self fusing(very painful condition...)

I take on oxycontin and a percocet when I get up to get moving and get something done during the day, a percocet at 8pm, and repeat the morning oxy/perc right before bed. I have tried all the injections, all the PT, all the massage... I actually cut my dose in half on my own with no input form the doc, only take enough to be able to function... if you take enough pain meds to be pain free you are an addict! No signs of addiction, no tolerance build up... my daily pain level with the meds would have the average person screaming for morphine! I just deal with it and live life as I see fit.

These attempts to remove access to meds that make life livable for millions of people is outright stupidity. 99.9% of legal pain med users are not the addicts and are not the problem. The problem flows across the southern border!

[DougGuy]

These attempts to remove access to meds that make life livable for millions of people is outright stupidity. 99.9% of legal pain med users are not the addicts and are not the problem.

Hmmm kinda sounds like another constant argument we all have to face as gun owners!

[tinhorn97062]

Not to stir anything up, but have any of you chronic pain sufferers tried marijuana? It seems that the medicinal benefits are gaining quite a bit of traction. Some or all of you may or may not be against it, and this isn’t meant to fire up a debate on that subject, but rather to bring up a possible other option.

I see one person above chimes in on the matter.

[Traffer]

i have been on opioids for about 12 years. First vicodin then oxycodone AND morphine for the past 7-8 years. I got the cancer two years ago and found out that the opioids have permanently messed up my guts AND much of the pain I suffer now is actually from withdrawal symptoms because I have not increased the dosages of opioids in those 7 years. So now I have to go off this stuff. BRUTAL. My health is such that I am almost bedridden (haven't even fired a gun in 2 1/2 years. Can't get to the range. and NOW I have to kick morphine? No bueno. I am down to 15 mg morphine per day from 60 mg and not taking any oxycodone (used to take 20 mg on top of the morphine.
My advise is ...If you don't need opioids don't take em. If you really REALLY need opioids like your life depends on it ...STILL DON'T TAKE THEM. Just learn to endure the pain.

[RED BEAR]

I am not in constant pain thank god because opiods make me sick and don't really do much for pain. My wife on other hand has been in constant pain for years has had neck fused several disc operations constant shots in back and must take pain killers constantly. After seeing the pain she has to deal with i really feel for people in pain.

[truckjohn]

You forgot the do-gooders who equate pain with moral and ethical failure and are driven to distraction by the thought of ONE 80-year old in Hospice who is addicted to opioids because od chronic pain. Give me a break!

My issue is this:
Pain is not a lifestyle and it's not a moral failure.
Let people have some dignity....
Especially if they are old and there are no other options.

Seriously - you hit 80 and your life expectancy is 5 years or less.. Who cares about addiction if it helps you to cope.


The ONLY reason opiod use is under attack is the big drug companies don't make high enough profits on the sale of opiods. If opiods are gone then it easier to sell their new designer drugs. Also, opiods complete with medical marijuana, another cash cow for the rich.

BB

[BigAlofPa.]

I get monthly nerve blocks. I have percocet for breakthrough pain. I have not got a new script for them in months. I take aleve and or ibuprofen and use my tens unit. I find if i save the heavy hitters they work better. My pain doc did try to push the medical weed on me. I said no thanks i enjoy my guns and reloading. Found out he reloads too and loves shooting then.

[flyingmonkey35]

in 45 and have been road rough and out away wet more times then I can count.

i have two bad knees that need surgery. two slipped disks in my lower back that flare up fro. time to time.

and a blown rotatercuff on my right shoulder that has had two surgeries on it and still hasn't fixed it.

I've told my wife and doc that if I could event one thing. it would be device that would let the doctor know exactly how much pain I'm in and make them feel it to.

as no one will ever understand the pain one feels

on my bad days with out my meds I wouldn't get put if bed.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[MrWolf]

Even with my 80mg time released med it barely takes the edge off. Those of us who really suffer are not pain free. I would guess most here are like me and only being able to sleep an hour or two at time. Try doing that for years and see what it does to you and that is being on a pain med. I have had nights where you just want to scream every ten minutes for the pain to stop so you can grab a few minutes of sleep. Listen to someone who has thrown there back out and they would swear they were dying. We endure that on a daily basis. I used to get some relief from accupuncture but over the years worked less and less. Even found out electronic stimulus gives me migraines. Yea for me.

[condorjohn]

You forgot the do-gooders who equate pain with moral and ethical failure and are driven to distraction by the thought of ONE 80-year old in Hospice who is addicted to opioids because od chronic pain. Give me a break!

My issue is this:
Pain is not a lifestyle and it's not a moral failure.
Let people have some dignity....
Especially if they are old and there are no other options.

Seriously - you hit 80 and your life expectancy is 5 years or less.. Who cares about addiction if it helps you to cope.

Just like the doctor that told my 94yo Great Grandfather he had to cut back on his coffee.

[alamogunr]

I have just read this thread from start to last post. My first thought is to thank God that I don't have such issues. Second, is to offer prayers for all those who deal with pain every day. Too many are like I was and don't understand what others deal with.

While I am not personally acquainted with most here on this board, I respect and have learned from many of those that have posted in this thread and had no idea they were dealing with these issues.

[tinhorn97062]

I have just read this thread from start to last post. My first thought is to thank God that I don't have such issues. Second, is to offer prayers for all those who deal with pain every day. Too many are like I was and don't understand what others deal with.

While I am not personally acquainted with most here on this board, I respect and have learned from many of those that have posted in this thread and had no idea they were dealing with these issues.


I would like to echo this.

The subject as a whole has been very eye opening for me. Due to many years of “various abuses”, my body has been permanently rewired in such a way that medications do almost nothing to me. Example: for a tooth operation, a dentist would normally offer Vicodin as the “heavy hitter”. Unfortunately for me, I have to take so much to have any kind of a reaction, that I end up touching the edge of the danger zone for the Tylenol. So, while I don’t suffer from chronic pain, I do have some understanding of what ya’ll deal with.

[JimB..]

The opioid epidemic is the result of organized crime and fraud, but instead or dealing with that and moving on we need to implement more control over all the law abiding folks.

BTW, been using them off and on for almost 40 years. I feel cheated because they never did make me high, so I just can’t relate to the addiction. One day I’ll try THC, but can’t do it now.

[Traffer]

The opioid epidemic is the result of organized crime and fraud, but instead or dealing with that and moving on we need to implement more control over all the law abiding folks.

BTW, been using them off and on for almost 40 years. I feel cheated because they never did make me high, so I just can’t relate to the addiction. One day I’ll try THC, but can’t do it now.

You don't have to get high to get addicted.
But you are correct about organized crime and fraud. It's called big Pharma. Morphine is very VERY cheap to produce but the drug companies get crazy amounts of money for their pills. Big Pharma is one of the most corrupt plagues upon our society.

[Three44s]

What do I use?

None of the above thank you!

Several years ago a friend brought me a tiny little sample of something cutting edge. I thought what a farce, but I tried it. I trusted my friend and the cost of trying it was zero.

In my case much of my issues stem from year around allergies but as I get older wear and tear etc have added back pain and general joint and muscle issues. In short, soft tissue inflammation.

Now the naysayers to what I use point to the fact that this product is merely “salt water”. Well it breaks down in your body to salt water once it is used up but it is not that until then. So if you are salt restricted I find you should approach the product topically with limited ingestion until your body adapts or just stay with topical and be done with it.

This product I use (actually two different carriers but one active ingredient) is not sold on store shelves and the naysayers also pick on that as well. In the web site I post here, it goes into how much money you will potentially make by joining (becoming an associate). Yes it costs an annual fee but it is not onerous at all.

I pay little attention to that.

What I concentrate on is feeling better and being more healthy, period.

The criticism I get from friends who try this and find relief, which almost every one has is that Medicare does not pay for it (if they are on Medicare) in the first place. Well I am not there yet and when I am I will keep buying the product as I do not wait for Uncle Sam to give me a green light (green bucks in this case).

So if anyone dare look at the following web site and cares to inquire more, PM me and we will discuss the topic further.

amazingmolecules.com

Three44s

[6bg6ga]

I blew discs in my back in 86 and the pain was so bad they put me on Percodan and they told me I would get hooked on it but don't worry because they would get me off of it when they operated on my back. A month later I was going thru the maximum dosage with hardly any relief and they finally operated on me. I woke up to be on morphine and din't know where I was for three days. I left the hospital a week later with 3 scrips for percocet . Went to see the surgeon a week later and they handed out more percocet like it was candy. It did take away the pain and I never got hooked nor did I feel I couldn't live without it.

Recently I needed some pain reliever for my knee after surgery. I was told to take Tylenol. Well that didn't take the pain away and I asked for some percocet and you would have thought I kicked someone in the groin by the looks I got. I told them listen I'm not an addict I simply need some pain relief and the over the counter stuff simply doesn't work. Finally I receive a 7 day supply of it. I think the crackdown on some of the pain killers is ridiculous. Let people have it when they need it.

[Land Owner]

If your doctor KNOWS YOU, there should be no question when you request a pain killer.

[6bg6ga]

If your doctor KNOWS YOU, there should be no question when you request a pain killer.

That's the way it should be unfortunately Dr's are buckling to pressure to not prescribe pain killers and it doesn't make any difference if they have known you 40 years or 4 months they simply do not want to prescribe them.

[GhostHawk]

Three 44's ordered some Asea today. We'll be testing this together my wife and I.

My only criticism was that browsing through the site reminded me rather strongly of a multi level marketing or Pyramid scheme.

But the proof will be in the product. I am willing to keep an open mind until we see how that fly's.

Would love to have a chance to chat about this, any information you have would be helpful.

PM, if interested and if needed we can exchange phone numbers and schedule a time for a call.

[Three44s]

GhostHawk,

Congratulations on your willingness to try ASEA. I would be most happy to work by PM, email and phone with you anytime.

And you are correct that the big push is the marketing stuff. It turns me off to this day. If you care to watch the video named Genesis on the web site one can understand why it is done this way and not plastered over the airwaves and sold by a big Pharma like you would think. Also the main person that saved the floundering company is Verdis Norton. He was a marketing man for the likes of Kraft Foods and another big giant in his “prior life”. Without him, there would be no ASEA but as an old dog can not change it’s ways he also slicks up the marketing end, too much for my taste.

It is what ASEA has meant to me as a supplement that counts. From the very moment I sprayed the first bit of the liquid into my sinuses to now I have never been disappointed years later. To be sure I use it for so many more things and places than that but that is where it all began for me.

I have bought copious quantities of regular saline nasal spray since being introduced to them in the early eighties. I still buy them on occasion but with one difference. Now I buy the saline spray bottle and dump the contents and after rinsing with ASEA, I refill the new bottle with that, yes ASEA!

To just list a few other uses, muscle cramps (yes back pain in that category), burns, scrapes, wounds, insect stings, sun burn, eye issues (yes the liquid form goes in right in the eyes).

When my friend came back who introduced me to the product with a good friend (retired Physical Therapist) they brought more product and the retired Therapist began giving me the biology on it I was stunned. I had enough biology and chemistry between HS and College to be certain the talk they were giving me was crazy and yet the result was intriguing. So I told them that they were with the biggest hog washers in the world or this thing called ASEA was the biggest discovery in many years and was a huge leap in medicine and supplements.

Over the next 3 months I found no hog wash and none since.

Best regards

Three44s

[JimB..]

You don't have to get high to get addicted.
But you are correct about organized crime and fraud. It's called big Pharma. Morphine is very VERY cheap to produce but the drug companies get crazy amounts of money for their pills. Big Pharma is one of the most corrupt plagues upon our society.

I guess I meant that there is no motivation for it, or maybe I’m just not genetically inclined to addiction. I’d take several Percocet a day for months, and then just stop, no big deal.

About big pharma, their business practices are sometimes unethical and sometimes illegal, but I’m talking about organized crime, not the illegal actions of a generally law-abiding firm or industry.

[PerpetualStudent]

In Hawaii at least they searched for overlap between weed cards and firearm permits and told the firearm owners to turn them in. It's still illegal at the federal level and I doubt SCOTUS is going to step in in the near future. So for people who are passionate about shooting that's not a great option.

In general I've been very conflicted about watching this get covered in the news. You can and do build up resistance to these drugs which means increasing dosages as time goes on. If you're waiting for the end that's one thing. If you're looking at a decade or two, I'm leery of saying "you should be on narcotics for 2 decades". What the answer is, I don't know. But I do know that I want to avoid getting on them if at all possible.

My issue with laying the blame at the feet of "big pharma" is that these are prescriptions. We have already societally recognized that these drugs are dangerous to muck about with. Your doctor is already supposed to be looking at what the best form of pain control for you would be. S/he is already supposed to be supervising you and making sure you're not getting addicted. Why has there been such widespread failure on the part of the medical establishment? Are our doctors really that suggestible? How do we fix that?

[MaryB]

10 years on pain meds... I lowered my dose myself, find no need to increase it to where I am a zombie sleeping constantly. I live with high pain levels despite the narcotics... as I mentioned I take enough to dull the pain so I can get moving and so I can sleep. I have 10 extra percocet a month for breakthrough issues like the last 3 days where i was having bad nerve pain in my right foot from a pinched nerve... I like to be able to sorta sleep at night and having your foot feel like someone was stabbing 2 wires with 240 volts into it every 10 minutes means no sleep at all. The percocet adds some anti inflammatory to take the swelling down on that nerve.

I looked into medical pot... not on my budget!!! Would cost me $500 a month plus MN strips your gun rights so no thanks!

[GregLaROCHE]

Opioids never seemed to help me that much. For short term pain, when I had a hip replacement, Ice was by far the best. I’ve suffered with arthritis for years and Celebrex works miracles for me. If I forget to take it one morning, I sure know it. It used to be controversial, but I think now it is more accepted. I’ve been taking it for fifteen years and I swear by it. It also is great for hangovers!

[tmax64]

I worked for the Army for 32+ years as a Pharmacy Technician so I'll chime in with my 2 cents worth. I truly feel for the folks with chronic pain issues because over the last 5-10 years the government do-gooders have made opioids out to be the devil incarnate. There was some over-prescribing years ago but now the pendulum has swung too far the other way. All the "just as good or better than" is kind of like the "tastes like …". You compare to the standard. There are some people who need long term pain relief. If you can't fix the problem then you have to treat the symptoms. There are also people who need more than 1 week of pain medication after an orthopedic surgery or other procedure. Not being able to use/prescribe the best option available is stupid and another step towards what a "socialized medicine" program would look like in the US. Government dictating what you can take/not take, do/not do instead of the Dr.-patient relationship determining what is best.

[white eagle]

This subject was alluded to in another thread, but I thought it deserves its own.

The fact that opioid use appears to be leading to users being less tolerant of pain, and I wondered how long it would take to move into practice. I open my company E mail this morning and there it is, a seminar on moving away from opioids for long term pain management!

I wonder how this is going to be received by the public? What do some of you who are on pain management think? What have you seen happen in family or friends who have been on long term opioid pain management?

aint going to happen for me
without pain meds I can not move, literally
I am one of the unlucky few that metal replacement joint surgery
has not made my life better
2 knee's and one hip not to mention degenerative back issue
no brace for that

[Abert Rim]

I had just had my third lumbar fusion six weeks ago. Got off the hydrocodone light ahead of schedule, as I tend to view acetominophen as the antichrist.
Brother keeps urging me to consider medical marijuana or the CBD extracts, but I am reluctant for two reasons: the science is still sketchy, with most of the evidence anecdotal; and the ****able federal component would jeopardize my carry permit and C&R license at the very least.
So at this point when the leg lights up, all I can do is sit, stretch, grin and bear it.
Those with much more severe chronic pain than I have have my complete sympathy. It really grinds on quality of life and mental health over time.

[KenH]

Seriously - you hit 80 and your life expectancy is 5 years or less.. Who cares about addiction if it helps you to cope.
Better words were never spoken!!!

[truckjohn]

See - so many of these posts hit on the exact thing.

Pain relief and Addiction are two different things and need to be treated separately.

Addiction is horrible. The toll it takes on both the addict and his family is terrible. So let's open the door to better addiction treatment. For example - most heroine addiction treatment is handled by hospitals and lasts 3-5 days. Yet it takes a YEAR for a heroine addict to get to the point where they can usually cope.... Why is this an issue? Money. Simple as that... Cost! Who pays - if it's the family with deep pockets, they get the treatment they need.... If it's unreimbursed hospital bills - they get 3-5 days and send them home.... If the fellow dies at home - it's not on the hospital's watch.....

[Thundarstick]

Here's an indication of where this is going. I picked up our local paper today and there's a lengthy article about a Cookeville TN man who was addicted to opioids. After reading the whole article, the addict told how he had no idea that PRESCRIPTION drugs could be so addictive, and most of the blame was laid on the Dr. for over prescription of opioids! The Dr. was indicted for over prescription as well.

What do you think is going to happen when the MDs are too scared of criminal prosecution to prescribe potentially addictive pain killers? I'm betting that they stop prescribing them!

Basically these seminars are going to teach the medical community how to "just say no" to pain sufferers!

[MaryB]

Many docs already are, local cops are interfering and demanding they cut prescriptions back too...

[bmortell]

there's supposedly some drugs that are good for opioid addiction like ibogaine and some other psychoactive's for other types of addiction, but there all schedule 1 just like everything else.

[MrWolf]

Many docs already are, local cops are interfering and demanding they cut prescriptions back too...

I am required to drive 45 minutes each way every month to see a pain management doc so I can have my prescription. Really is a joke and we both know it based upon my history. There for maybe 20 mins. Problem is after sitting for 30 minutes it becomes painful. Actually I see a pharmacy guy then doc/pa. Called insurance company yesterday as we were looking into other formulations. Gave them four choices and all were either outright denied or they would only issue seven days worth. They also grade you on your supposed overdose probability or something like that. Really is a joke on folks who really need the meds vs being told to just take an aspirin and ignore it.

[Lloyd Smale]

I took them daily for about 8 years. Finally just had enough of living in a haze and not being able to do a bowl movement and went to my doctor and told him no more. He gaves me what is basically prescription strength advil and Tylenol 3 for when it gets bad. Yes I suffer, No they don't take the pain away but I can at least function and live my life. I can drive to town without worrying about driving under the influence or what would happened if I killed someone on the road. Like it or not its not going to get better no matter how much you disagree. About every hospital or doctors office I go to now has signs about then not giving out narcotics or strickly limiting them. If I were you and was taking them daily id be looking right now and trying different things right now before you show up for your script one month and they say no more. Because that day is coming and its not far off. Ive had 6 back operations a hip replacement and an ankle replacement and am scheduled right now for the other hip. So im not talking without experience. there is other things on the market. New drugs and new stimulators. I had a spinal stimulator for about 12 years it got tired and wouldn't hold a charge so they removed it. The company asked me if I wanted another one and I told them it didn't help all that much (it did help some though) He said that they've came along ways since mine and work much better so maybe that's a route some of you should consider.

[C.F.Plinker]

He gaves me what is basically prescription strength advil and Tylenol 3 for when it gets bad.

FWIW Tylenol No. 3 has a half grain of codeine in it. That is what the "No.3" means.

[MrWolf]

I've tried alternatives such as bio feedback, electrical stimulators which cause me migraines, shots but am allergic to the carrier they use in cortisone, etc.. My pain pills do not cause a haze as I only take enough to function. Surgery has been ruled out by numerous docs due to the severity and extent. Gotten to where I am looking into alternatives such as stem cell. If they could just fix the sitting part at least I could travel some.

[MaryB]

I took them daily for about 8 years. Finally just had enough of living in a haze and not being able to do a bowl movement and went to my doctor and told him no more. He gaves me what is basically prescription strength advil and Tylenol 3 for when it gets bad. Yes I suffer, No they don't take the pain away but I can at least function and live my life. I can drive to town without worrying about driving under the influence or what would happened if I killed someone on the road. Like it or not its not going to get better no matter how much you disagree. About every hospital or doctors office I go to now has signs about then not giving out narcotics or strickly limiting them. If I were you and was taking them daily id be looking right now and trying different things right now before you show up for your script one month and they say no more. Because that day is coming and its not far off. Ive had 6 back operations a hip replacement and an ankle replacement and am scheduled right now for the other hip. So im not talking without experience. there is other things on the market. New drugs and new stimulators. I had a spinal stimulator for about 12 years it got tired and wouldn't hold a charge so they removed it. The company asked me if I wanted another one and I told them it didn't help all that much (it did help some though) He said that they've came along ways since mine and work much better so maybe that's a route some of you should consider.

They tried to implant a tens unit in my spine. They can't get the leads past the bone spurs and into the right spots... my spine is slowly self fusing... a very painful process and nothing they can fix...

[375supermag]

Hi...
I have suffered from back pain from a work accident back in the '90s. I ran a receiving docks and the loading dock leveler fell and my lift truck and I fell into the gap between thedock and the truck.
I had to be helped off the lift truck because I was in so much pain I couldn't move. I was off work for over a week...the emergency room doctor said my lower lumbar vertebra were compressed and that I would probably have back pain the rest of my life. He gave me some pain meds and stretching exercises to relieve the pain.
I still to this day have back pain on a regular basis and I do the stretching exercises when the pain becomes debilitating. I use Advil for relief...no more than two a day. I usually take them first thing in the morning. No prescription pain relievers.
I have also had cancer three times with major surgeries, chemotherapy and radiation therapy.
Surgery has restricted how high I can lift my arms to the point that some days I can't raise them over my head.
After salivary gland cancer surgery, when they sent me home for about a four month recovery, I was prescribed liquid morphine for the pain to be injected into my feeding tube. After three days, I couldn't take the way it made me feel mentally and poured it down the drain.

That was seven years ago and the only pain pills I take is Advil. I prefer a clear mind and manage to deal with the pain. Chemo and radiation after affects are not much fun either but I have no interest in opiods or medical marijuana.

I manage to go hunting, do yard work and whatever else I want. Sometimes the next day is spent on a vibrating heating pad and I can't always move very well or quickly but it's better than having my mind numbed by drugs.

[Lloyd Smale]

mary im not recommending them here because mine didn't do much for me. But I did hear that they have new ones that don't need leads. they inplant a transmitter like I had done and the probes are wireless. Ive got a buddy who had the same set up as me for his lower back. He also has a broken neck which was his real problem and they could never put one in his neck because its just to easy to create new problems when dealing with the neck. He said his pain doc told him this new one was really created for those kinds of situations. They can be put anywhere and its a lot less invasive surgery.
They tried to implant a tens unit in my spine. They can't get the leads past the bone spurs and into the right spots... my spine is slowly self fusing... a very painful process and nothing they can fix...

[samari46]

I'd like to thank the member who suggested Gluocosamine. Been taking 2000mg daily and today I spent the better part of the afternoon cleaning up all the junk that had accumulated out back of the rear patio. Difference was noticeable from my last marathon cleaning out under the car port. Acid test is when I get up in the am for a doctor's appointment. Frank

[Lloyd Smale]

yup around here too
Many docs already are, local cops are interfering and demanding they cut prescriptions back too...

[Geezer in NH]

All due to the war on drugs and the fun using junkies. END THE DRUG WAR NOW!

[samari46]

Tylenol #3 is a joke. My back went out and back then I had a RN coming to the house 3 days a week. Was all I could do was stand up. My GP prescribed the tylenol #3. Could have done better with advil. I have these lidocane patches and use two at a time. They at least do provide some relief.Think they are 1.3%. Frank

[MrWolf]

Those patches are basically topical like Voltarin (sp) cream. Glad you can get some relief from them. I used to a long time ago but ... Good luck.

Just a thought for those that say they take Tylenol or Aleve everyday vs opioids. Taking something everyday to relieve pain would still be considered an addiction. Just a thought.

[Handloader109]

I am required to drive 45 minutes each way every month to see a pain management doc so I can have my prescription. Really is a joke and we both know it based upon my history. There for maybe 20 mins. Problem is after sitting for 30 minutes it becomes painful. Actually I see a pharmacy guy then doc/pa. Called insurance company yesterday as we were looking into other formulations. Gave them four choices and all were either outright denied or they would only issue seven days worth. They also grade you on your supposed overdose probability or something like that. Really is a joke on folks who really need the meds vs being told to just take an aspirin and ignore it.

My wife does almost the same. No MD except for a pain dr will prescribe her her meds. She goes quarterly (was monthly for about 6 months. She was one of the few that would bring in 5 to 10 pills over her required remaining. (yes the MD counts the pills left. If you should have 3 days left in the month, you should have 9 pills...... not 3 or 4.) But issue as of yesterday, is that now CVS is requiring monthly Precertification by our insurance company. We've already gone thru this last year. The insurance co had a half dozen different meds they wanted to prescribe before her current, but almost all interacted with her heart meds. Can't take tylenol or any NASIDs.
Oh well, we'll see what we can do...

[NyFirefighter357]

There is a good alternative, Suboxone. The problem is it's labeled as a drug for addiction the FDA & many states won't allow it to be used as a pain management treatment or ppl won't take it as the stigma as it's for addiction. It's harder to get off then opioids but if your in for the long haul your not worried about getting off of it. It's much safer if you take other medications, it can be taken at lower levels than opiods and has the same effects as opiod and very hard to overdose with (it's an opioid but not the same as the others). I've listened to Dr. Drew Pinskey for 30ys+, he's an addiction medicine specialist. He's not fond of using suboxone for addiction but says it's a better alternative for some patients with long term pain management for chronic pain. Speak to a pain management specialist! He's also not the only one that thinks it's good for long term chronic pain either.

https://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2018/11/suboxone-for-pain-makes-sense-why-dont-more-doctors-prescribe-it.html

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/from-patients-to-criminals-history-of-opium-ep-5/id1167326349?i=1000433702821

https://drdrew.com/2019/current-opioids-crisis-ep-11/

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/weekly-infusion/id1167326349

There is a lot of information on opioids at https://drdrew.com/

[bmortell]

There is a good alternative, Suboxone.

its also a big hit recreationally. ive seen more people take it for fun than there are people addicted to opioids in the first place.