I don't get it...

[curioushooter]

I have two examples that perplex me. One is the disparagement by some of the 357 Mag for deer. Perhaps out of a handgun, but out of a rifle the performance is approaching 35 Remington and perhaps surpassing 30-30 under 100 yards. My 1894 Marlin sends a 158 grain XTP at nearly 1900 FPS with a book load of 300 MP. Once I get my hands on Miha's 359 hammer I would not be surprised to get 1700-1800 fps with that 170 grain slug. My Lyman manual lists CB loads with 30-30 basically in this zone. 35 Rem loads in contenders are nearly identical performance to 357 mag in a rifle with 158s. So why is it that 35 Rem is such a fine, effective woods deer cartridge while the ballistically similar 357 Mag rifle is only for dainty southern deer or Jack rabbits and such.

After processing dozens of deer I have yet to be convinced of these great differences between cartridges.

[megasupermagnum]

I have two examples that perplex me. One is the disparagement by some of the 357 Mag for deer. Perhaps out of a handgun, but out of a rifle the performance is approaching 35 Remington and perhaps surpassing 30-30 under 100 yards. My 1894 Marlin sends a 158 grain XTP at nearly 1900 FPS with a book load of 300 MP. Once I get my hands on Miha's 359 hammer I would not be surprised to get 1700-1800 fps with that 170 grain slug. My Lyman manual lists CB loads with 30-30 basically in this zone. 35 Rem loads in contenders are nearly identical performance to 357 mag in a rifle with 158s. So why is it that 35 Rem is such a fine, effective woods deer cartridge while the ballistically similar 357 Mag rifle is only for dainty southern deer or Jack rabbits and such.

After processing dozens of deer I have yet to be convinced of these great differences between cartridges.

Anybody who has ever shot a deer with a 357 magnum agrees with you. A 180 grain hollow point at 1200+ FPS puts whitetail down as well as anything. Heck, 327 federal can be a great deer cartridge with heavy cast bullets. Nothing wrong with a strong 38 special either, even 45 acp if with the right load.

[Winger Ed.]

It's one of those deals where the truth doesn't stand a chance against a good myth or misconception.

Most people (only) think of .357 factory stuff at handgun speeds.
Little consideration is made for a rifle with the longer barrel and no cylinder gap.

The same boolit at nearly the same speed from a .357 handgun round compared to a .35 Rem rifle round
is too much for some to wrap their head around.

[megasupermagnum]

Along with the factory loads which from the big brands are mostly 158 grain mid range loads, let's not forget the 357 (and 44) magnum used to be loaded to a higher pressure. I'm seeing 43,500 psi, not to be mistaken with CUP, and now SAMMI is listing at 35,000 psi. In a good revolver or rifle, pretty much anything besides a J or K frame Smith, you can get a substantial boost in performance by loading the 357 magnum to it's former glory.

[Larry Gibson]

Even at true 357 magnum velocities (1350 1450 fps) out of handguns with 150 to 160 gr SWCs they are deadly on deer. You just have to put them in the right place is all. As Winger Ed noted; "It's one of those deals where the truth doesn't stand a chance against a good myth or misconception."

[Walks]

I never took a Deer or a Pig with a .357Mag.

I shot a Cougar out a tree with one out of a OM .357
Mag Blackhawk. 5 dogs, 3+miles and 16yrs old legs.

1st rd - tree, 2nd rd - tree, 3rd rd - Cat, up thru the ribcage, out thru the shoulder blade. Cat fell half way down the tree. I had to climb up to drop him the rest of the way down.

There was a 3 inch hole where the Lyman #358156 exited. Blew the shoulder blade to Hades. I was using a max load of old 2400. A lot hotter then anything published today.

The Guide was rather upset that I was using Lead ammo. CALIF has necessitated Copper Jacketed Expanding Bullet's since 1965. It was 1968.
Now it's All Lead-Free everything.

I understand that .22 Rim fire is being brought out lead free soon.

So I wouldn't hesitate to take a decent sized Deer or Hog with the .357Mag. Rifle or Handgun.

[brewer12345]

In my state it doesn't matter what I think of it, to stay legal you have to use a .24 or larger caliber rifle that produces 1000 ft lb at 100 yards. I can plausibly find a 44 mag factory cartridge that will do that out of a lever action, but 357 doesn't come close. Meanwhile a 170 grain lead boolit that actually did 1500+ FPS out of the muzzle would have ballistics better than a .50 cal round ball, which is perfectly legal in muzzleloader season. Yeah, makes lots of sense, right?

[Greg S]

I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 357 mag pistol or rifle in the woodsmfor deer. I'd proqbably opt for a 7.5" copy of a blackhawk for a pistola. Heck, an awlful lot of deer have fallen to lesser cartridges (22lr, mag, 22 hornet, 25-20and 32-20)

That 300MP has some pretty impressive numbers. Got some loaded up right now with MiHec's 180 I think.

[Smoke4320]

Some people no not get that the same bullet at the same speed will do the same damage no matter the size of the case its fired from

[georgerkahn]

My guess is when many folks hear ".357 Magnum" they ONLY envision revolvers, generally with four inch or so barrels. Mention ".35 Remington", and the envision a beefed-up thirty-thirty '94 Winchester in that caliber. Yes -- we recently watched a movie on t.v., where shooter (with no pauses to reload) got eleven shots from a revolver which sure resembled a Colt Detective Special. My guess is this number of shots from a fixed capacity revolver is now part of many viewers' beliefs: If it's shown in a movie, it must be true :).
Hence, curioushooter, I can easily see your perplexment! Just, perhaps, rethink that what you know from data, experience, and facts GREATLY outweighs "urban legend".
Good post!
geo

[GhostHawk]

Winger Ed Post #3 nailed it IMO.

Some people just have a hard time wrapping their head around certain truths.

Like the fact that the 1911 designed by Mr Browning was designed to shoot through horse AND rider (with one shot) bringing both down. And it was lucky if it was traveling at much over 850 fps at the muzzle.

Don't let other peoples opinions confuse you. Facts, provable, repeatable, solid data backing them up, yes. Opinions no.

So go slay em with your .357, make sure you put it where it needs to go. Enjoy!

[Petrol & Powder]

It's one of those deals where the truth doesn't stand a chance against a good myth or misconception.

.......

/\ This pretty much sums it up /\

Add to the discussion that somehow the American Whitetail Deer has become bulletproof.

I'd be willing to bet a lot more deer fell to some type of black powder, flint lock, rifle firing a small caliber round ball with less energy than a .357 magnum rifle firing a 170-180 grain hollow point bullet travelling 1600 + fps.

[DerekP Houston]

I've not seen a deer here in a TX that wouldn't fall to a well placed 357, in fact my first 'deer gun' was my lever action. Still haven't gotten my first blood yet but the dream continues.

[bikerbeans]

But if you lengthen a 357 mag chamber 0.3" (357 max) you now have a cartridge that is "nippin' at the heels" of a 358 win. Well ya do if you believe the 357 max groupies.:wink:

BB

[SSGOldfart]

But if you lengthen a 357 mag chamber 0.3" (357 max) you now have a cartridge that is "nippin' at the heels" of a 358 win. Well ya do if you believe the 357 max groupies.:wink:

BB
Well that's a fact the maxi is back to true 357mag standards with the right load and right gun the 357 mag can stand on it own but I feel the 357maximum gives me a little extra,without the recoil of the 35 Rem. Just my .2[smilie=1:

[psweigle]

I shoot a ruger 77/357 for whitetail. With a Lee 158gr rnfp powdercoated and an old school charge of h110, I can say without a doubt, the deer don't have a chance.

[dverna]

It depends...

Keep range reasonable and the .357 will get the job done. At longer ranges, the low velocity and poor BC will make hits more challenging; but if you hunt from a blind, you can use a rangefinder and know your drops before bambi arrives. Poor choice if hunting powerlines.

A big deer here is 200 lbs and 3000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy is not required.

[Texas by God]

Place a 357 Magnum cartridge next to a 35 Remington cartridge. You're looking at the difference.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[phonejack]

The last deer i killed was with a 158 xtp going about 1400 fps in the rifle. It died just as quickly as those I have taken with 270,30/06/308.

[megasupermagnum]

In my state it doesn't matter what I think of it, to stay legal you have to use a .24 or larger caliber rifle that produces 1000 ft lb at 100 yards. I can plausibly find a 44 mag factory cartridge that will do that out of a lever action, but 357 doesn't come close. Meanwhile a 170 grain lead boolit that actually did 1500+ FPS out of the muzzle would have ballistics better than a .50 cal round ball, which is perfectly legal in muzzleloader season. Yeah, makes lots of sense, right?

What? So handgun hunting isn't legal in Colorado? A 454 Casull can barely squeeze out 1000 ftlb's at 100 yards.

[sniper]

What P &P and dverna said! :bigsmyl2:

[megasupermagnum]

In my state it doesn't matter what I think of it, to stay legal you have to use a .24 or larger caliber rifle that produces 1000 ft lb at 100 yards. I can plausibly find a 44 mag factory cartridge that will do that out of a lever action, but 357 doesn't come close. Meanwhile a 170 grain lead boolit that actually did 1500+ FPS out of the muzzle would have ballistics better than a .50 cal round ball, which is perfectly legal in muzzleloader season. Yeah, makes lots of sense, right?

I'm seeing Colorado requiring 550 ftlbs at 50 yards for handguns. A 357 magnum can do that.

[Texas by God]

My previous post didn't mean that I disagree with using the .357 on deer. It worked for me once so far.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190614/5f2373279f379be0062dbea5df0381f3.jpg

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[brewer12345]

I'm seeing Colorado requiring 550 ftlbs at 50 yards for handguns. A 357 magnum can do that.

Yes, 550 at 50 yards for handgun, but we were discussing rifles. That is even screwier. I have to use a howitzer if hunting deer with a rifle, but try a 41 mag is fine for pistol hunting. Hmmmm....

Show me factory 357 ammo that meets the energy requirements. I have not seen it.

[jaysouth]

/\ This pretty much sums it up /\

Add to the discussion that somehow the American Whitetail Deer has become bulletproof.

I'd be willing to bet a lot more deer fell to some type of black powder, flint lock, rifle firing a small caliber round ball with less energy than a .357 magnum rifle firing a 170-180 grain hollow point bullet travelling 1600 + fps.

In my neck of the swamp, from 1920 to 1960, most deer were killed with a .22 backed up by a carbide lantern or a flashlight.

[MT Gianni]

Interesting comparison, My 35 Remington pushes the RCBS 250 @ 1750 fps. That could be one reason why. I like the 357, especially in a rifle but it is what it is.

[bluejay75]

+1 on 357 Mag for deer and + 1 for 300 MP and cast. Its slow burning properties lend well with cast. Something else I have been trying is doing two coats of powdercoat. I had some coated twice in a Lee Pot and had to crush them with a spoon to get them to melt.

The Penta will expand with nearly any alloy at pistol velocities. Save the HPs for heart/ lung shots. But if you know you want to hit bone...(I want neck shots) go with the solid with a full charge of H110, 300MP or Lil Gun out of a rifle and you got meat. If you nick a neck bone it is going to sever the spinal cord. Deer wont be dead but it wont move.

It has not been hard finding less than an inch groups in my Handi Rifle, 77/357 with cast or jacketed at 100 yards. With the slow burning powders as long as youre seeing flash keep going. Lil gun burns good but is the only one of the 3 that I personally have gotten into pressure problems with. Done it with the 357 Hornady XTP Flat Points at nearly 2000 fps, MP Larsen 165 Solid, MP Larsen 185 Solid, MP 358-200, Lee Lyman 358-200 as a PB no GC and I consider myself a rookie. Get the boolit into the lands or barely touching and you will have a hard time telling which shoots best from charge to charge. EXCEPT Lil Gun...which didnt like being confined.

[flint45]

Come on everybody knows you need at least one of the big .30 cal magnums in a rifle or at min. a .500 S&W to kill whitetail deer.:kidding: No whitetail were I live but Blacktail and they are not hard to kill just good shot placement .357 mag no problem.

[megasupermagnum]

Yes, 550 at 50 yards for handgun, but we were discussing rifles. That is even screwier. I have to use a howitzer if hunting deer with a rifle, but try a 41 mag is fine for pistol hunting. Hmmmm....

Show me factory 357 ammo that meets the energy requirements. I have not seen it.

You are right. Using the federal ballistics calculator, they only one that might (and just barely) break 550 at 100 yards is the 180 gr WFN-GC made by Buffalo Bore... and only with a 6"+ barrel with that.

[curioushooter]

I live in Indiana which, which has 357 Mag as the minimum handgun cartridge. 45 ACP and 9mm in particular are EXCLUDED for being too short. 223 is also excluded, the minimum rifle caliber being .243/6mm. I think there is sense to this. 45ACP and 9mm are almost never loaded for hunting, and almost always FMJ or rapidly expanding hollowpoint ammo. 357 Mag in 158 grain and up is factory loaded for hunting usually. There is even a deer on the box, which is about all the average member of the public can wrap their head around.

I process deer for myself and others (not exactly a business, but it is something I do). As a consequence I get to see a whole lot of deer wounds. Indiana began to allow rifle cartridges a couple years ago on private land and we've seen an explosion in the number of enormous rifle wounds. The real offenders seem to be 243 and 308 Winchester. 30-'06 is also bad. 30-30 on the other hand seems to be worse than a handgun cartridge but not as bad as the "REAL" rifle cartridges. The high velocity rounds pretty much pulp the lungs and can make enormous exit wounds. In one case we saw entire shoulder BLOWN off a medium sized buck. The shoulder and right front leg detached...a handloaded 30-'06 165 grain Nosler Partition from about 60 yards...handloaded by a guy who no doubt thought he knew what he was doing. Basically he lost a about 10 lbs of meat he could have otherwise had. No doubt this would have been better if the deer was taken at 150 yards, but that is just not common here. Since one of the places I hunt has a vast hayfield that I sometimes shoot across I do get such long shots, but this is rare, and for somebody hunting woods it just isn't going to happen. You are lucky if you get 50 yards of visibility in most places.

Of all the wounds I'd say ROUND BALLS deliver the optimal ballistic performance. A pure lead 50 caliber round ball, which weighs about 175 grains, impacting about 1200 FPS has gone STRAIGHT through every deer with a broadside shot and NOT pulped the insides or tumbled and done all sorts of crazy things shedding little bits of lead and copper.And though it is massive overkill, a 12 gauge 1oz slug seems to work well. Basically puts a 3/4" hole through the animal and if you hit a bone its like a piano fell on them. But the recoil is brutal and the accuracy is usually poor.

[Petander]

Curiousshooter,Thanks for your post. Interesting notes about round balls,I was casting and shooting them all winter.

I've been involved in processing quite a bit,too. I've seen hundreds of moose/deer wounds and bullets.

Our whitetail energy minimum is 243 too,generally the fast small calibers "explode" more often. I use 45-70 for all close range work whenever possible. Sometimes longer shots are needed,then I use a 300WM with heavy Woodleighs. If very close,a heavy Hammerhead. If very far like 300+, a Ballistic Tip. I practise 300 m regularly.

No handguns for hunting here. Mine would be a big one.

[MT Chambers]

Lots of creative ballistics here, stand the cartridges beside each other, the .357, the .35 rem, the 30/30, and you'll see what I mean. I have nothing against the .357 for deer but it is illegal for use here in a rifle or handgun for deer or any other big game.

[robinsroost]

curioushooter, I am also a Hoosier, North Central Ind. I have harvested 36 white tail deer, Florida, Tennessee, South and North Carolina and South Dakota, with my .243 Winchester, loaded with 100 grain Nosler Partitions over H1000. These leave an exit wound about the size of a quarter or half dollar, if they hit bone. I suspect that the gaping wounds you have seen were caused by hollow points. I also load 85 grain LRNGC rounds over Clays for 50+ yard shots on squirrels. Of all the deer I have taken, I can count on one hand those that were over 100 yards. Since I moved back home, I prefer to use my model 1894 Marlin .44 magnum or my model 1894AE Winchester .45 Colt. Keep yer powder dry...…...robin

[dnepr]

The 357 mag can take deer , worked well for me I don’t remember if I mentioned in this thread but the pic of it hanging was taken in a shop with 10 foot ceilings , just to give a size reference

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?217224-Rossi-357-makes-meat&referrerid=2530

[megasupermagnum]

Definitely did the job, although that bullet looks like it didn't hold up to the rifle velocities as much. I'm sure you are already trying some cast bullets in that. They don't even need a hollow point at those velocities, they will expand anyway.

[white cloud]

I have killed a number of deer with a M77/357 here in S.C. I use the Hornady 158 XTP. It seems to kill just fine. One bullet per deer for a number of years.

I plan to use my Marlin 1894 in .357 this season. I also plan to develop some cast bullet loads for this rifle. It's not a .270 Winchester but there are no degrees of dead.

[siamese4570]

The people that don't get it have never done it. Last winter I shot a 150-200 lb hog with a 180 gr cast rnfp out of my henry 357. He went about 20 feet. My concern about whether the 357 can do it diminished greatly.
Siamese4570

[AlaskaMike]

The .357 mag with 125 grain or 158 grain JHP out of a 4" bbl revolver was considered for many years to be the ultimate manstopper in defensive situations where dumping the assailant rapidly is of utmost importance.

A deer is pretty darn similar in mass to a human, and yet when you add 300 fps or more to the velocity of those 125 or 158 gr. bullets, it becomes completely inadequate for the armchair hunter. Make it a 180 gr. bullet and those same armchair hunters find it barely adequate.

I don't get it. However, I honestly don't care--there will always be people whining and crying about how some caliber is weak and inadequate, regardless of how much game has been cleanly taken with it.

[Norske]

According to my old " Cooper on Handguns" (the only gun related thing I've bought that appreciated with time), the original factory 357M load would wear out an N frame Smith quite quickly. So approach old reloading data with caution unless you have a large-framed revolver.

[megasupermagnum]

According to my old " Cooper on Handguns" (the only gun related thing I've bought that appreciated with time), the original factory 357M load would wear out an N frame Smith quite quickly. So approach old reloading data with caution unless you have a large-framed revolver.

A model 29 can live a long life if loads kept light to mid range for 44 magnum. I rarely hear of problems with the model 57. A Ruger GP100 lives a LONG life with full power 357 magnum. I'm thinking the larger smith N frame should be at least as good.

Perhaps you mean the K frame?