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Wayne Smith
06-09-2019, 08:06 AM
As a licensed clinical psychologist (VA lic. #0810001993) I have a somewhat unique perspective. As a historian (untrained) I add to this. My perspective is this:

Two generations ago we emptied the mental hospitals nationwide with medications. One generation ago we greatly improved the efficacy of those medications. All good, right? Over 90% of the diagnoses that placed one in those mental hospitals are genetic in origin. The medications put these people back into society, families, and as fully functioning people.

We now are on the third generation of people who have not seen the devastation the symptoms cause, have no idea of their genetic heritage, and the onset of these symptoms is often subtle and unremarkable to the person. Major Depression with it's possible suicidal and homicidal ideation, Schizophrenia with it's cognitive decline and confusion, and Bipolar in it's manic and mixed episodes all present danger, especially when paranoia is involved.

The onset of these symptoms is often not obvious. We have the example of a medical student who dropped out in his sophomore year and shot up a theater. Just from the news reports it was evident to me that he was in the throes of a psychotic break - but he had been under daily or weekly observation by MD's in his school and they did not catch it. If you would like to experience hallucinations get the movie A Beautiful Mind with Russel Crowe. You will see how 'normal' the experience is internally. I have a client who told me her mother once fired a gun in the house. The person she shot at wasn't there, but she did not know that.

The solution? I'm not sure other than a massive educational program focused on knowing one's genetic heritage and the appropriate treatment.

Hickory
06-09-2019, 08:18 AM
I think violent movies have some effect on the way these disturbed people think and act.

Smoke4320
06-09-2019, 08:18 AM
Another one of the many complex problems we face.

Smoke4320
06-09-2019, 08:23 AM
I think violent movies have some effect on the way these disturbed people think and act.

I think violent movies and video games have a much larger effect on the general population than we realize
Look at all the road rage shooting now. How most anything can escalate into a shooting at any moment.
Civility is nearly gone in everyday life

Petrol & Powder
06-09-2019, 09:13 AM
It is a complex problem with no easy solution.

bedbugbilly
06-09-2019, 09:14 AM
Interesting read Wayne - thanks.

I understand what you are saying and it's not an issue that can be solved by throwing money at it without educating people. But how easily are this things solved with we have videos and games that are realistic in regards to winning the game by killing people/things/aliens/whatever. Our whole society is becoming "de-personalized" - I got my eyes opened when a high school girl, a daughter of a couple who are like our "surrogate kids", explained to me how teenagers "date" today - basically by the ever-present cell phone in their hand and very little actual face to face interaction until the "relationship gets serious" and you can be seen together out in public where your peers will "know" that you are going together and a couple. Huh? We have gone fro a polite society where men held doors for women and who took their hat off in their presence to where it is not politically correct and if you do it, you are considered a "male chauvinist" - and even that term is dated, sorry.

Many years ago, I worked ambulance as well as fire/rescue. We routinely transferred patients to a state mental institution and the images of what I saw in there still haunt me. I also saw the results of mental illness (some forms) through violent acts done on others, hoicides, and sadly, more suicides than I care to remember.

Recognizing symptoms? Fully agree with young I sometimes think it's like the brakes of your car going bad - it is so gradual that friends, family and others do not clue in to the fact that the person needs help and intervention - and so many times, with such things, they can lead a very normal, productive and happy life.

I get confused sometimes though, when emphasis is put on recognizing the "signs" and "urgings" to let someone know sot act intervention can take place. Take a look at a number of the shootings . . . hindsight is always 100% . . . but oftentimes, the "signs" are recognized by their peers/family/others and yet when reported, nothing happens to intervene and take the right actions to not only prevent and incident, but get the individual the help they need. We have government agencies, who have preached that if "you see something that is not right, report it" - especially when it comes to possible terrorist activities - but when reported, it is often brushed aside - they won't admit it - but I know from first hand experience that it happens.

I fully admire individuals such as yourself, who work to help those who need help in order to function and have a normal, productive life. But let's be realistic about it . . . as much as "help and programs are needed" . . . do you really think that the government is going to address the problem . . and by that . . . I mean in the correct manner and in an efficient manner where what monies are expended on such programs every penny is going to go to help those who need help?

We are saddled with a "do nothing Congress" . . . and I lay the blame on both sides. We have a President who has done more to try to straighten things out in what time he has been in office - our economy is booming, unemployment is at a all time low and he has done it for ALL Americans and yet we have the left who is so full on hatred for him that they themselves out to have a psych evaluation. Just take a look at what is going on in CA, WA and other places with the "homeless", the drugs, the mess there is on the streets to where folks no longer want to visit those places - and one is right in Pelosi's district. A good majority of those living on the street have mental issues and need help . . . and yet we have a Congress who cares more for illegals coming in to our country than they do about our own citizens.

Yes . . . there is a need for good, helpful programs to teach about mental illness and an even better program to give those that need help what they need to get the back on track and help them live good, happy and productive lives . . . but it will never happen because there are too many self-centered, greedy politicians who worry more about getting re-elected than they do about solving problems that they themselves create. There always seems to be taxpayer money to do ridiculous studies, build railroads that go nowhere, to throw at their friends to finance their undertakings than there is to help with the things that need to be done.

I always get amused when "government studies" are done and they utilize "academia experts" to draw conclusions and "fix" the problem. I certainly hope that something will be done in the terms of the mental health issues but until the government starts listening to individuals like yourself, who "work int he trenches" and have a real grasp on what is needed, how successful will government programs really be.

I enjoyed your thoughts and thank you for posting them . . . and it made me think as well . . . an important issue that needs to be addressed . . . . I wonder how much help that plane load of money that Obama sent to Iran would have helped?

William Yanda
06-09-2019, 09:24 AM
Thanks for sharing your insight. Sounds perfectly logical to me.

MrWolf
06-09-2019, 09:49 AM
I was the Director for my county's Welfare Board. Part of the issue when dealing with mental health comes from the person's own rights. You cannot force a person to take meds or seek help if they do not want to. Our only recourse was to have an emergency evaluation done to determine if the individual was a threat to themselves or others. A lot of the homeless do in fact require mental health assistance. At what point are you taking away a person's rights to live as they want versus societies expectation on how they should be? Slippery slope if you really think about it.
I also agree people today are inundated with violence through games, movies, and the media in order to increase sales. Games have become so realistic that the line for some between reality and fantasy gets blurred. Just my opinion.

dangitgriff
06-09-2019, 10:33 AM
I know someone who self-admitted to a mental health facility and was ignored for three days/72 hours until allowed by law to leave on their own.
Mental health care in the United States is either nonexistent or so underfunded it’s effectively nonexistent. I personally see it as a result of government intervention into medical markets. Mental health care and all other health care needs of the population would be best addressed by whole-sector privatization.
Too expensive, you say? The market, left alone to sort it out, would adjust prices down to affordable levels. As it stands now, government-funded institutions have crowded out private solutions, with predictable results.
I’m sure most people would prefer to retain the status quo...what is that term describing doing the same failed thing over and over, expecting different results every time?
Oh yeah—INSANITY.
[emoji1787]
If you want real results, turn to capitalism and kick socialism to the curb. In other words: get government the hell out of health care.
R/Griff
ETA: Wayne Smith—your psycho-bible, the DSM-V, has taken an egregious political left turn. I recommend in the strongest terms possible that you burn that litany of lobbyist language at your earliest convenience. Thanks for listening! [emoji851]

Three44s
06-09-2019, 11:08 AM
Take two people raised in completely different environments.

One is raised around guns and hunting and is properly counseled about the real world.

A second is raised in a sterile setting, no guns, no hunting and finally no counseling about life and death.

Introduce video games and violent movies to both of them and get two very divergent results.

As Wayne Smith points out, we emptied the mental institutions a couple of generations ago and the drug market caught up one generation ago. Scarry stuff!

I believe that there are a lot of other factors of less individual importance but collectively significant. The way people parent children these days (or the lack of parenting) and the practice of medicating children on a blanket basis when a good many of them may just be extrovert in nature and without significant lack of parenting just go off the rails.

I and my brother grew up on a ranch, as adults we still live and work here. Our mother always marveled that a farm or ranch was a wonderful babysitter. Make no mistake that either of our parents abrogated their responsibilities, they did not.

We gained a respect for life and a fear and understanding of death. If you are an extrovert you have some space to blow off some of that steam between trips to the doctor to get patched up between spills and over time you get wised up. You learn real vocational skills from your parents and then when the time comes, you go to an institution of higher learning to get added and different knowledge.

You come back to the farm if you are inclined to learn that your father might just be smarter in many ways you never realized before you left for that higher eduction.

It is a shame that more folks do not get such an opportunity.

Three44s

Thundarstick
06-09-2019, 11:57 AM
What do you mean the government isn't doing anything about mental health violence? Just what are all the new red flag laws for, if not to disarm the mentally unfit?

Seriously though. Most serious mental citizens are allowed to just keep going until they fall into the criminal justice system and we lock them up, of the shot by the police or others. Don't even get me started on how GP MDs are allowed to prescribe the psychoactive drugs with almost nonexistent follow up or any effective monitoring! Who ever said, "we have no mental health system", hit the nail dead on the head!

Idaho45guy
06-09-2019, 11:58 AM
This is why "red flag" laws are gaining popularity, even among gun owners. They seem like a good idea; the ability to report a loved one that seems to be having a psychotic break in order for government officials to step in and take away firearms. However, giving the government even more power to strip citizens of their rights based on nothing more than hearsay is a recipe for tyranny.

I work in corporate security and we handle employee terminations. In the past couple of weeks, I've had three different employees terminated in which HR "raised flags" about the individuals simply because they were former military and firearms enthusiasts. Of course none of the individuals were a danger to themselves or others, but in today's America, the media has successfully ostracized anyone who enjoys the shooting sports or served their country. And it's only getting worse.

I think we are within a decade of anyone who is conservative, white, a gun owner, and Christian as being labeled as a domestic terrorist and stripped of constitutional rights.

The country is losing it's collective minds.

Hickory
06-09-2019, 12:02 PM
The country is losing it's collective minds.

Hard to argue this point.

Thundarstick
06-09-2019, 12:05 PM
Just another reason we'r are doomed as a nation!

buckwheatpaul
06-09-2019, 12:11 PM
I think violent movies have some effect on the way these disturbed people think and act.

I agree with Hickory....but I add the constant celebration of COLUMBINE Massacre by the media as well as giving these cowards an ID.....give them a number but not their name and never show their picture....deprive them of their minute of fame......I believe the press and media shares in the blame for constantly bringing up these incidents and those that are bent toward this type of violence revel in it; study it; and often try to out due the last cowards acts!

country gent
06-09-2019, 12:25 PM
Here's something to consider also in regards to the medias. It used to be a report of a shooting most places was very short and little details. Now in the medias its a much more detailed report ( the people have the right to know) almost a step by step process of the incident. This is a complete listing for the copycats to follow and build on. I have read where some gang members now have actual military training and experience making them much harder to deal with.

Yes people can be desensitized to many things if its life movies or video games or combination of is hard to prove.

rca
06-09-2019, 12:31 PM
I have to agree with buckwheatpaul. Most have missed this happening

EDG
06-09-2019, 01:32 PM
I disagree with much what you claim. You apparently have never had to live with the mentally ill and the near impossibility of successful treatment in most cases. The drugs often do nothing or they have side effects that are just as bad as the disease. Often the patient feels worse and refuses to take the drugs or they feel cured and quit taking them. Either way the drugs become ineffective due to side effects and/or patient behavior that you cannot control.
The health care professionals often become party to the disease by filling the ill person's head full of excuses and rationalizations for their behavior which reinforces the goofy thought processes. The health care professional also uses prescription drugs as a means to blackmail patients to ensure the patients sees the doctor for another anti-anxiety drug prescription. This is nothing more than a conflict of interest on the part of the doctor. He will use the drugs to insure his revenue stream is maintained even though he has little real effect on the patients health or future. The doctor in effect has little or NO incentive to cure anyone. But the doctor can make the patient feel good or make the patient think he or she is getting better to encourage continued doctor visits. I have seen the result of the half baked mental health care racket. That was an individual that had young adult onset paranoid schizophrenia. He died alone at the age of 74 with a life time history of treatment that never accomplished a thing. I know another person age early 40s for whom treatment and a maze of drugs has accomplished little.





As a licensed clinical psychologist (VA lic. #0810001993) I have a somewhat unique perspective. As a historian (untrained) I add to this. My perspective is this:

Two generations ago we emptied the mental hospitals nationwide with medications. One generation ago we greatly improved the efficacy of those medications. All good, right? Over 90% of the diagnoses that placed one in those mental hospitals are genetic in origin. The medications put these people back into society, families, and as fully functioning people.

We now are on the third generation of people who have not seen the devastation the symptoms cause, have no idea of their genetic heritage, and the onset of these symptoms is often subtle and unremarkable to the person. Major Depression with it's possible suicidal and homicidal ideation, Schizophrenia with it's cognitive decline and confusion, and Bipolar in it's manic and mixed episodes all present danger, especially when paranoia is involved.

The onset of these symptoms is often not obvious. We have the example of a medical student who dropped out in his sophomore year and shot up a theater. Just from the news reports it was evident to me that he was in the throes of a psychotic break - but he had been under daily or weekly observation by MD's in his school and they did not catch it. If you would like to experience hallucinations get the movie A Beautiful Mind with Russel Crowe. You will see how 'normal' the experience is internally. I have a client who told me her mother once fired a gun in the house. The person she shot at wasn't there, but she did not know that.

The solution? I'm not sure other than a massive educational program focused on knowing one's genetic heritage and the appropriate treatment.

Hickory
06-09-2019, 01:49 PM
Here's something to consider also in regards to the medias. It used to be a report of a shooting most places was very short and little details. Now in the medias its a much more detailed report ( the people have the right to know) almost a step by step process of the incident. This is a complete listing for the copycats to follow and build on. I have read where some gang members now have actual military training and experience making them much harder to deal with.

Yes people can be desensitized to many things if its life movies or video games or combination of is hard to prove.

Yeah, not much different from the early mass shootings in the 90's when our law makers would hold up the firearm or one just like it on national TV, the gun used in a crime and tell the crazies "This is the gun to buy, it shoots 600 rounds a minute, the caliber is XXX, you can get 50 round 'CLIP' for it, yada, yada, yada."

sureYnot
06-09-2019, 01:56 PM
"The health care professionals often become party to the disease by filling the ill person's head full of excuses and rationalizations for their behavior which reinforces the goofy thought processes."

I'm sure it's not the intent, but I've seen this scenario in action. Validate with a diagnosis and the bad behavior is no longer their fault. Most notable with adolescents. (10 years working in a state hospital.)

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

Froogal
06-09-2019, 01:56 PM
I know someone who self-admitted to a mental health facility and was ignored for three days/72 hours until allowed by law to leave on their own.
Mental health care in the United States is either nonexistent or so underfunded it’s effectively nonexistent. I personally see it as a result of government intervention into medical markets. Mental health care and all other health care needs of the population would be best addressed by whole-sector privatization.
Too expensive, you say? The market, left alone to sort it out, would adjust prices down to affordable levels. As it stands now, government-funded institutions have crowded out private solutions, with predictable results.
I’m sure most people would prefer to retain the status quo...what is that term describing doing the same failed thing over and over, expecting different results every time?
Oh yeah—INSANITY.
[emoji1787]
If you want real results, turn to capitalism and kick socialism to the curb. In other words: get government the hell out of health care.
R/Griff
ETA: Wayne Smith—your psycho-bible, the DSM-V, has taken an egregious political left turn. I recommend in the strongest terms possible that you burn that litany of lobbyist language at your earliest convenience. Thanks for listening! [emoji851]

I agree! The government has NO business being in health care, and maybe, just maybe, if there was no such thing as health care insurance of any kind, No one would need it.

sparky45
06-09-2019, 02:11 PM
EDG and sureYnot are very close to the truth. I spent 40 + years as a Registered Nurse and saw my share of mental patients. Super, super complex problem and no easy answers. I appreciate Wayne's perspective, but collectively just one opinion. My belief is that if the patient (person) is dx'd with a mental disorder a second or third opinion MUST be secured to validate the dx. Treatment MUST be of current approved therapeutic value(s) based on APA guidelines. By and large the govt. is responsible for the numbers of patients NOT getting treatment.

RED BEAR
06-09-2019, 02:35 PM
I am not so sure its violent movies and games. I think its that society has fallen to the point that this type of trash is now the norm. When i was a kid there was violence on tv and movies but not the kind there is today. Yes the bad guys would get shot the cowboys and the indians would get shot and sometimes killed . But you didn't have people being chopped up and dismembered. If a game came out that you could steal a car kidnap a prostitute , rape and murder her all to get points i can guarantee the company would be out of business in less than a week. It really makes me wonder about the mental state of the people who seek this stuff out as entertainment. People tell me that i just want to go back to the past. Well you bet ya.

popper
06-09-2019, 02:48 PM
IMHO it's that we have not seen a violent society for a long time and don't know how to handle it. There was an experiment years ago with mice. Increase the population density (and provide enough food & water for all) until the mice got very aggressive and started killing the weaker (less aggressive). If you get into metromess traffic you know what I mean, in a hurry, most important person in the world, etc. Friend has the opposite problem, elderly parents that are on the verge of becoming violent. State really isn't/doesn't do much until 'something' happens.
Basically there are medical situations, but most are just anger, didn't get the world to treat them 'properly'.

WRideout
06-09-2019, 02:59 PM
When I was young, both my scoutmaster and a leader of my Explorer post were veterans of the Korean War. The explorer post leader was blind from a Chinese hand-grenade. These men knew war and violence, but they did not glorify it. I grew up knowing that violence was a fact of life, and could at times be the appropriate response, but not the only response to threat. There seems to be a trend of society following what the military is doing (or maybe the reverse.) Sometime in the sixties it appears that the armed forces turned toward a doctrine of massed fires, and volume of rounds to "neutralize" a target. In the fifties, most movies about WWII had a moral point; by the seventies the movies and books had become quite cynical and fatalistic.

I understand that in war, the innocent are harmed, and there is unavoidable "collateral damage." The difference now, in my opinion, is that there is no longer a moral counterbalance.

Wayne

jonp
06-09-2019, 03:07 PM
So mental illness is 90% genetic recessive alleles surfacing at random? My theory is they remain dormant until triggered by external means such as chemicals, food additives and the like.

M-Tecs
06-09-2019, 03:23 PM
In large part the tend started in the 70's with how we deal with non-fixable people and Jimmy Carter's Mental Health Systems Act of 1980 (MHSA) was the nail in the coffin. The unfortunate reality is some people are not fixable. Closing the state hospitals but a large percentage of non-fixable people on the streets. Since than are society has been normalizing bad behavior. Yes a lot of the truly mentally ill do not know the difference between right and wrong and that is not going to change. What has changed is the acceptance to bad behavior by people that do know the difference between right and wrong. Conflict avoidance is another. The less skills people have in dealing with conflict the likely it is that they will suppress their feelings until they snap. Same for dealing with failure. Life doesn't give Participation Trophies and we are actively teaching are young to be unhappy. Sad part is anyone with more common sense than a drunken third grader could see it coming.

Walks
06-09-2019, 03:43 PM
I lost my faith in the mental health system when I learned a Dr. Who runs/owns a mental health facility can arbitrarily lock up some one who cuts their leg when shaving it on 72 hour watch.

I took my 18yr old daughter into the Emergency Room because she cut her leg shaving it. She was seen by a Nurse who called in a "Dr" who had her transferred to a mental health facility next door to the Hospital.

She was diagnosed by this "dr" as a danger to herself.

I'm sitting in the Waiting room , waiting for my Daughter to get her leg stitched up. After an hour I asked and was told she was no longer there. Took me an hour and the Police Department, to find out what happened to her. But it was Fri night 10pm by this time.

I had to get a Lawyer and a Court Order and wait until Monday to get her out. Then they didn't release her until 9pm Monday night. Didn't even call us just pushed her out the door. Forced her to sign papers giving up her 2nd Amendment rights before they would let her go. They refused us all communication with her. Even her Personal Physician.

That ****ed "dr" locked her up because she had insurance. Just to make money for himself.

I found out we had no Legal Recourse again this "dr".

We sued the Hospital, because they improperly treated her wound. It was still open when she was released, still bleeding. They failed to sew up the wound.
Did find out the recieving nurse worked for that same "dr".

All we could do was file a complaint against the Hospital and "dr" with the State Medical Board.

So I have no faith in a so called mental health system.

And I DON'T BELIEVE ANY gun owner is in favor of the "red flag laws" that VIOLATE our Civil Rights and Our Constitution.

Three44s
06-09-2019, 03:45 PM
Another problem we have is that we have become a more Godless.

Satin would make greater inroads on such a population and has infiltrated more people’s souls — more evil — more temptation — more crime.

Three44s

dangitgriff
06-09-2019, 05:17 PM
Hey Walks—
That’s un-Constitutional, but our politicians refuse to address it.
If you value your liberty, do not interact with anyone inside the medical community. They are incentivized via government funding to abuse the system for their own benefit.
Left with no legal recourse, can American Revolution 2.0 not be far ahead?
R/Griff

Idaho45guy
06-09-2019, 05:48 PM
Another problem we have is that we have become a more Godless.

Satin would make greater inroads on such a population and has infiltrated more people’s souls — more evil — more temptation — more crime.

Three44s


Amen!

I never thought I would live to see the day that Satan himself would become mainstream and glorified. There is actually a show on Netflix called "Lucifer" in which the Devil helps solve crime and is portrayed as a good guy. Absolutely insane!

243297

dangitgriff
06-09-2019, 06:27 PM
My wife loves that show.
I wonder if all the God movies made atheists feel the same...[emoji848][emoji16]

Bigslug
06-09-2019, 07:34 PM
Yeah. . .because nobody EVER killed, incarcerated, or called someone else as "crazy" over disagreements about God. That's diagnostic help I DON'T want from my HMO, and certainly not by directive coming from any governmental corner.

The OP makes an interesting point on the perpetuation of "crazy genes". I've long mused over the notion that civilization has been a mixed blessing for our species. Our forebears who were fast, strong, smart, and in this discussion, SANE, went forth, tamed the world's predators, diseases, and genetic ailments; making it safe so that the slow, weak, stupid, and crazy could live to breeding age in a world where being slow, weak, stupid, and crazy aren't obvious detractors among your equally slow, weak, stupid, and crazy breeding prospects. Sure, we're all programmed to protect those near and dear, but stop and think objectively about ourselves and close relations: how many of us would be alive, or have even been conceived to the same set of parents, if not for the technical, medical, and social changes of the last 200 years? We seem to have fired Darwin, or at least reduced him to part-time status, and it's costing us dearly.

tazman
06-09-2019, 07:45 PM
"The health care professionals often become party to the disease by filling the ill person's head full of excuses and rationalizations for their behavior which reinforces the goofy thought processes."

I'm sure it's not the intent, but I've seen this scenario in action. Validate with a diagnosis and the bad behavior is no longer their fault. Most notable with adolescents. (10 years working in a state hospital.)

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

I saw that happen with my now dead first wife. Her therapist validated everything she thought trying to make her feel better about herself. She was deeply depressed and the drugs would no longer help her at any legal dosage.

RED BEAR
06-09-2019, 08:22 PM
Three44's AMEN TO THAT.

iomskp
06-09-2019, 09:28 PM
I will put in my 2 cents worth, my father was a soldier for 5 years in the second world war, he said very few of the returned soldiers he new had mental problems and he put it down to the social interactions at the time, clubs, churches, returned soldiers clubs, and talking to fellow veterans. These days hardly anybody goes out, or even talk on the telephone.
Now as far as meds go I suffer from PTSD I have been down the path of doctors and psychiatrists and drugs, I now control my environment rather than taking the drugs, this works for me and has managed to stop most of the out bursts.

JBinMN
06-09-2019, 10:09 PM
This has been an extremely interesting discussion. Thanks!, for bringing it"to the table", and Thanks!, to all who have participated!

samari46
06-10-2019, 12:53 AM
There is a stigmata attached to being treated for mental illness and a perceived embarrassment on the part of the family that has someone being so treated. Back when I was considerably younger my best friends mom used to volunteer to help with those afflicted in a large mental institution. Her son (my best friend) one day made a comment about all the crazy people there. She almost slapped him along side his head. She said that a lot of the patients seriously needed treatment there and on many progress was being made. She had first hand knowledge of what some of never get to see or experience. Shortly there after comes the Vietnam war. Post traumatic stress disorder or combat fatigue sent many of our vets to mental institutions for treatment. Some having suffered serious wounds and long periods of recuperation definitally needed help. One in particular definitely needed some serious help. Fortunately he did and now has a steady job, wife and family and owns his own house. Last time I saw him was over 20 years ago just before I took an early retirement and moved to Louisiana. Occasionally he calls and the first thing I ask is how are YOU doing. he usually tells me that he has his good and bad days. I've been telling him for years come on down and just chill. Do nothing except relax. I'm out in the boonies and not much going on. He did one year and said the quiet was driving him nuts. I could see where he was coming. I was in the engineering department and we ran the generator rooms,engine rooms,generator rooms. Heck it was noisey down there 24.7.365 all the time. So you sort or tune out all the background noise. The generator rooms were the worst as the noise levels were so high due to generators being running all the times. Frank

6bg6ga
06-10-2019, 06:02 AM
I think violent movies have some effect on the way these disturbed people think and act.

I am convinced that the violence from movies, videos, and video games is the cause of the problems. Kids, young adults and older adults with possible defects watch videos, movies, and participate in games and come to the realization that violence, murder, stabbing, and such is normal and accepted behavior. Its not. I firmly believe the instances of violent behavior are up and have increased because of these videos, movies and games. There wasn'r near the violent behavior before this **** came into play.

nagantguy
06-10-2019, 07:45 AM
Video games for sure are a huge culprit- remember the first person shoot games were created for the pentagon as “combat inoculators “ and the second second generation were revered as “murder simulation “ play for an hour or two and your brain becomes dead to
The death and gore, parents should be horse whipped letting young children play them for hours and hours with no physical activity.
Also seems me almost exclusively that every mass shooter is or was recently on an SSRI or some psychological drug most likely a combination of several- and funny that they NEVER kill before the drug cocktail? We know from the opioid crisis that from the big hospital in downtown to the timy rural doctors office or pain clinic- Doctors of all stripes are Pill Pushers - listen to the trial going on in MO if you had any doubts left. So there is a growing segment that truly believes that doctors /mental health professionals have now raped 3’entire generations of their mental health and used them as a laboratory for addictive pills with limited at best results -pills that change brain chemistry- pills that bring on manic kill frenzy if not taken in ever increasing doses for -YEARS- and oddly enough which ever flavor of these drugs has the highest kickback from big pharma -is always the most perscribed one?!? So the formula seems to be - if the child wasn’t aborted out of convenience than sadly they are given no supervision- allowed to play on the murder simulation machine when ever for how ever long and when they act up out the first last and only answer is “Pills” first last and only answer- take your 13 year old daughter to the doctor for anything anything at all and see how long it goes before they try pushing pills on them. If it sounds like I’ve no respect for
Medical professionals- I don’t absolutely not any more- SSRI epidemic- opioid epidemic- and all the wonderful guys and gals whom cut up dead babies for profit .

Wayne Smith
06-10-2019, 07:46 AM
We have always been a violent society - there was a boxing match in NYC in the early 1900's where everyone entering had to surrender their firearm. There were substantially more firearms collected than there were people at the fight! Our right to keep and bear arms presumes a violent society. We have lost a basic respect for one another that has usually before been in place except on the fringes of the society. This lack of fundamental respect has prevaded our entire society, and I do believe that the media (movies, games, TV shows, etc.) has had a large role in this loss.

I also agree that the medications do not effectively work for everyone, and we are now just under 20 years into the drugs that increase positive affect rather than only decreasing the negitive affect for the psychotic and bipolar. Everyone, unless an identical twin, has a unique biochemistry. No one knows how a medication with work for you until it is tried and you inform your MD. You need an MD who is willing to be educated by you about your physiology - then their next guess will be better. Every MD literally 'practices' medicine. We do not have the 'silver bullet' that only does one thing reliably for everyone - it doesn't exist.

Don't let this discount the thousands that these medications have helped. No, it is not a cure - there is none known. But they do help management, allowing the patient to manage their own behavior.

Idaho45guy
06-10-2019, 08:02 AM
There is a stigmata attached to being treated for mental illness and a perceived embarrassment on the part of the family that has someone being so treated.

It's more than a stigma... It's now an excuse to take away your guns.

Washington State passed a new law that before being allowed to buy a semi-automatic rifle of any kind, you have to fill out a form and pay a fee and let the local police chief or sheriff review your medical and mental health records to determine if they will allow you to have a gun.

I quit smoking last Summer and was having a horrible time. Doc prescribed me Prozac, which I tried for a couple of weeks and didn't like. So now I have officially been on anti-depressants, which our corrupt and idiotic local police chief can now use as a reason to deny me my constitutional rights.

You think your medical and mental health records are private? Nope. Everything is being hacked and stolen. You think that with the advent of social media and cyber bullying that someone is going to seek help for mental health issues?

Heck, I had to leave a couple of gun forums because one sick individual is cyber stalking me and harassing me online. Luckily he hasn't shown up here, yet. It's scary the things this person would find in my past from over ten years ago by finding old posts.

We have created the perfect society in which mental illness and evil is flourishing and have tied our hands to deal with it.

nagantguy
06-10-2019, 08:07 AM
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/opioid-drugmaker-insys-therapeutics-files-for-bankruptcy

So now it’s over 2,000 separate law suits but all
With this theme- doctors getting paid- TWICE to PUSH highly addictive drugs- regardless if they helped or were even needed. Over 47,000 ods just from prescription opioid in 2017 alone. Unless you start life as a street junky there is only one way Mom and pop Joe Normy American is getting hooked on these life destroying pills- from their doctors, same doctors whom got them and their children hooked forever on SSRIs with ever diminishing returns.

WRideout
06-10-2019, 08:23 AM
In years past, at least in rural and small-town America, hunting was a rite of passage into adulthood. Years were spent grooming children in the use of deadly weapons, teaching them responsibility, respect, teamwork, and many other positive attributes. As we become more and more an imaginary world of cyberspace, parents are not raising their children to be ethical hunters. The use of deadly force has been displaced into the nether world of virtual reality (which is not real in any sense.)

Some time ago, I was visiting my daughter and son-in-law at their home. SIL had a new video game from Cabela's that was billed as a hunting exercise. He set it up, assembled the "gun" and started the game. Cartoon animals appeared on screen, which he immediately "shot." More appeared, which were shot, and the bodies began to pile up. Soon not only deer and rabbits, but ducks flying by, all to be laid waste. I tried my hand at it, and soon had a pile of dead virtual animals on the screen. The whole thing rather sickened me. I will never participate in such a game again, and I am actually rather surprised that a firm such as Cabela's would put their stamp on it.

The disciplines of hunting are patience, woodcraft, knowledge of the prey, and understanding of your weapon along with many others. When those are lost, society has lost more than just the annual game feed at a church. We are losing our soul.

Wayne

15meter
06-10-2019, 10:00 AM
I believe a fair amount of mental illness is genetic/hereditary. We closed the mental hospitals and we have had a couple of generations of mentally ill cross breeding with other mentally ill and are getting the results.

Two or three generations of pick your genetic malady, MS, Parkinson's, various cancers, only have those in the gene pool and what are the odds that every offspring is going to have it and worse.

I'm not smart enough to see how that is not happening to the mentally ill.

Rarely does a low IQ couple have a Mensa candidate, fairly common with a high IQ couple. I wonder why?

Three44s
06-10-2019, 10:45 AM
In years past, at least in rural and small-town America, hunting was a rite of passage into adulthood. Years were spent grooming children in the use of deadly weapons, teaching them responsibility, respect, teamwork, and many other positive attributes. As we become more and more an imaginary world of cyberspace, parents are not raising their children to be ethical hunters. The use of deadly force has been displaced into the nether world of virtual reality (which is not real in any sense.)

Some time ago, I was visiting my daughter and son-in-law at their home. SIL had a new video game from Cabela's that was billed as a hunting exercise. He set it up, assembled the "gun" and started the game. Cartoon animals appeared on screen, which he immediately "shot." More appeared, which were shot, and the bodies began to pile up. Soon not only deer and rabbits, but ducks flying by, all to be laid waste. I tried my hand at it, and soon had a pile of dead virtual animals on the screen. The whole thing rather sickened me. I will never participate in such a game again, and I am actually rather surprised that a firm such as Cabela's would put their stamp on it.

The disciplines of hunting are patience, woodcraft, knowledge of the prey, and understanding of your weapon along with many others. When those are lost, society has lost more than just the annual game feed at a church. We are losing our soul.

Wayne

I am also amazed that Cabelas would sell something like that, what a recruitment tool for PETA!

Three44s

Three44s
06-10-2019, 10:54 AM
Yeah. . .because nobody EVER killed, incarcerated, or called someone else as "crazy" over disagreements about God. ..................

Individuals and religions can call their actions appropriate based on anything but that is only an excuse. Their flawed actions do not reflect on God nor do they give Satan a pass.

Best regards

Three44s

AggieEE
06-10-2019, 12:03 PM
Lot of interesting information here. Some years back I had a part-timer who also worked at the YMCA with kids. He was telling me that most of the kids were on ADHD meds. He told me that he has seen kids go to mellow to full rage in no time. His conclusion was that if the kid didn't need ADHD meds and take them he was a walking time bomb. The statement "lock the crazies up" sounds like a solution it is also a slippery slope covered in lubricating oil. A friend of mine committed suicide some time back, the Sunday before we were shooting skeet laughing, joking saying his girlfriend could set me up with a double date with them, etc. Next week at the range they told me he killed himself. If I had the slightest idea that he was going to do that I would have sat on him till help arrived.

dangitgriff
06-10-2019, 12:26 PM
Our right to keep and bear arms presumes a violent government, Wayne.
It’s only history.

FISH4BUGS
06-10-2019, 12:41 PM
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/opioid-drugmaker-insys-therapeutics-files-for-bankruptcy
So now it’s over 2,000 separate law suits but all
With this theme- doctors getting paid- TWICE to PUSH highly addictive drugs- regardless if they helped or were even needed. Over 47,000 ods just from prescription opioid in 2017 alone. Unless you start life as a street junky there is only one way Mom and pop Joe Normy American is getting hooked on these life destroying pills- from their doctors, same doctors whom got them and their children hooked forever on SSRIs with ever diminishing returns.
With all due respect, MILLIONS of people use the opioids for pain relief and never get addicted. I think that many of those that DO get addicted have a pre-disposition to addiction, like addiction to alcohol and cigarrettes. I come from a long line of alcoholics and three of the four siblings have abused drugs and alcohol and smoke to this very day. One is dead. Two have bad health.
I am fortunate in that the addictive gene seems to have missed me and I work at staying healthy. I can't say that for my surviving siblings.
There has to be some measure of personal responsibility here. When I was prescribed opioids for an injury I began to realize that i LIKED them, even took a few just for the heck of it, and backed off from taking them. I went to PT, did exercises religiously and still hurt, but certainly not enough to keep taking drugs.
There is a legitimate use for opioids.

Wayne Smith
06-11-2019, 08:44 AM
There is an appropriate use for opoids but, contrary to popular opinion, chronic pain is NOT it. We are now realizing that continued use of opioids can actually increase the perception of pain, not remove it. They are great for breaking pain and post operative pain, but not for chronic use.

Thundarstick
06-11-2019, 10:14 AM
There is an appropriate use for opoids but, contrary to popular opinion, chronic pain is NOT it. We are now realizing that continued use of opioids can actually increase the perception of pain, not remove it. They are great for breaking pain and post operative pain, but not for chronic use.

Holy ****! I've been saying that very thing for years! Now how long is it going to take that to too move into field practice? I see the same thing with patients coming to the ER. Once many of them are on the stronger opioids they're in the ER constantly for pain, this usually goes on for a few years until they die! It doesn't happen to everyone, but more than most of you know. I see the same thing in my wife, she's always got some sort of pain that NEEDS a pain pill, and an MD that keeps her a constant supply!

white eagle
06-11-2019, 10:34 AM
As a licensed clinical psychologist (VA lic. #0810001993) I have a somewhat unique perspective. As a historian (untrained) I add to this. My perspective is this:

Two generations ago we emptied the mental hospitals nationwide with medications. One generation ago we greatly improved the efficacy of those medications. All good, right? Over 90% of the diagnoses that placed one in those mental hospitals are genetic in origin. The medications put these people back into society, families, and as fully functioning people.

We now are on the third generation of people who have not seen the devastation the symptoms cause, have no idea of their genetic heritage, and the onset of these symptoms is often subtle and unremarkable to the person. Major Depression with it's possible suicidal and homicidal ideation, Schizophrenia with it's cognitive decline and confusion, and Bipolar in it's manic and mixed episodes all present danger, especially when paranoia is involved.

The onset of these symptoms is often not obvious. We have the example of a medical student who dropped out in his sophomore year and shot up a theater. Just from the news reports it was evident to me that he was in the throes of a psychotic break - but he had been under daily or weekly observation by MD's in his school and they did not catch it. If you would like to experience hallucinations get the movie A Beautiful Mind with Russel Crowe. You will see how 'normal' the experience is internally. I have a client who told me her mother once fired a gun in the house. The person she shot at wasn't there, but she did not know that.

The solution? I'm not sure other than a massive educational program focused on knowing one's genetic heritage and the appropriate treatment.

interesting to say the least
never really gave mental health a second thought

JBinMN
06-11-2019, 11:14 AM
We have always been a violent society - there was a boxing match in NYC in the early 1900's where everyone entering had to surrender their firearm. There were substantially more firearms collected than there were people at the fight! Our right to keep and bear arms presumes a violent society. We have lost a basic respect for one another that has usually before been in place except on the fringes of the society. This lack of fundamental respect has prevaded our entire society, and I do believe that the media (movies, games, TV shows, etc.) has had a large role in this loss.

I also agree that the medications do not effectively work for everyone, and we are now just under 20 years into the drugs that increase positive affect rather than only decreasing the negitive affect for the psychotic and bipolar. Everyone, unless an identical twin, has a unique biochemistry. No one knows how a medication with work for you until it is tried and you inform your MD. You need an MD who is willing to be educated by you about your physiology - then their next guess will be better. Every MD literally 'practices' medicine. We do not have the 'silver bullet' that only does one thing reliably for everyone - it doesn't exist.

Don't let this discount the thousands that these medications have helped. No, it is not a cure - there is none known. But they do help management, allowing the patient to manage their own behavior.

I disagree with the Bolded above, in the quote.

We have always been a society "ready" for violence, when necessary. The majority not actively seeking it, but willing to defend ourselves from violence acts, with violent reactions to those violent acts.


For the second Bolded i n the above quoted post,

Our Right to Bear Arms does not presume we are a violent society, but like said before, willing to defend against violence, as well as tyrannical acts of our government, with arms, if necessary.

The sentences I included as "a better fit", IMO, to the Bolded in your post, seem to reflect a better description than what was used.
Like said, In My Opinion.

MrWolf
06-11-2019, 11:24 AM
There is an appropriate use for opoids but, contrary to popular opinion, chronic pain is NOT it. We are now realizing that continued use of opioids can actually increase the perception of pain, not remove it. They are great for breaking pain and post operative pain, but not for chronic use.

For those of us in chronic pain what then is the solution? I know in my case surgery is not an option due to the levels and severity of my neck/back. I have never gotten high or even felt that from the prescriptions I have taken. For me it barely takes the edge off. I know of at least one other here whose back is also messed up and am sure she would agree that those that are really in pain don't get high from it nor ever have.

popper
06-11-2019, 11:59 AM
most of the kids were on ADHD meds. Have an acquaintance with 3 kids, claims all are somewhat ADD. Tested when they were 1 yr old. Could be genetic, I don't know but putting them on meds that early is bound to cause a problem. When I was a kid, one had polio, one was epileptic and one was really 'slow'. Pretty big schools so a large sample size. Don't think the docs have found the 'cause' yet. But they think they have a solution?

2wheelDuke
06-11-2019, 02:16 PM
As a licensed clinical psychologist (VA lic. #0810001993) I have a somewhat unique perspective. As a historian (untrained) I add to this. My perspective is this:

Two generations ago we emptied the mental hospitals nationwide with medications. One generation ago we greatly improved the efficacy of those medications. All good, right? Over 90% of the diagnoses that placed one in those mental hospitals are genetic in origin. The medications put these people back into society, families, and as fully functioning people.

We now are on the third generation of people who have not seen the devastation the symptoms cause, have no idea of their genetic heritage, and the onset of these symptoms is often subtle and unremarkable to the person. Major Depression with it's possible suicidal and homicidal ideation, Schizophrenia with it's cognitive decline and confusion, and Bipolar in it's manic and mixed episodes all present danger, especially when paranoia is involved.

The onset of these symptoms is often not obvious. We have the example of a medical student who dropped out in his sophomore year and shot up a theater. Just from the news reports it was evident to me that he was in the throes of a psychotic break - but he had been under daily or weekly observation by MD's in his school and they did not catch it. If you would like to experience hallucinations get the movie A Beautiful Mind with Russel Crowe. You will see how 'normal' the experience is internally. I have a client who told me her mother once fired a gun in the house. The person she shot at wasn't there, but she did not know that.

The solution? I'm not sure other than a massive educational program focused on knowing one's genetic heritage and the appropriate treatment.

You make some good points. This is definitely a problem that's been festering for quite some time.

I've had a front row seat for last 13 years when I joined the Law Enforcement trade. Unfortunately, most of the community's mental health burden seems to be falling on law enforcement. Or at least law enforcement winds up on the tip of that spear.

The previous hospital arrangement seemed to be a terrible thing. I've heard nothing but horror stories from that era. Some of them are first hand from a guy I've become friends with. He had some really bad times in the old Florida State Hospital. What's left of the old state mental hospital is said to be one of the most haunted places in the state, and I can see why people would say so.

However, the current system isn't working out all that great either, and there has to be some sort of happier medium possible.

725
06-11-2019, 03:50 PM
There are, no doubt, some cracked coconuts out there, and some evil folks who just make a choice. Both ends of the spectrum cause violence and both have to be dealt with. A one size fits all answer will never work.

oldscool
06-11-2019, 11:32 PM
So is the consensus to neuter or gass those with these genetic defects. Surely with the growing popularity of people giving their dna for ancestry testing the defective could be weeded out. &*&^%&*^()&^*(
Heck I sure would feel comfortable with a licensed quacker determining fates.

Wayne Smith
06-12-2019, 07:18 AM
I disagree with the Bolded above, in the quote.

We have always been a society "ready" for violence, when necessary. The majority not actively seeking it, but willing to defend ourselves from violence acts, with violent reactions to those violent acts.


For the second Bolded i n the above quoted post,

Our Right to Bear Arms does not presume we are a violent society, but like said before, willing to defend against violence, as well as tyrannical acts of our government, with arms, if necessary.

The sentences I included as "a better fit", IMO, to the Bolded in your post, seem to reflect a better description than what was used.
Like said, In My Opinion.

Thank you JB. You are very right. Mine was written in haste to respond to another point and not clearly thought through.

For chronic pain there are a variety of approaches that require discipline and those who are not willing to do it (want a pill for instant relief) won't do it. There is a company called The Great Courses and they have a DVD on dealing with Chronic Pain. It is quite well done and covers the variety of approaches now being used and why they work, and the degree to which they may and may not work.

Thundarstruck, it's getting out there. I was recently at a CE (Continuing Education) workshop on chronic pain and it was a central theme. Even us psychologists are getting the message.

WRideout
06-12-2019, 08:58 AM
It seems to me that part of the problem in current US society is the continuing pathologizing of every human condition. In years past (I grew up in the sixties) people who smoked pot did so for the pure enjoyment of it. Everybody knew that it was illegal and could land you in jail, but that actually made it more fun to beat the system. There was no sense that there was anything clinically wrong with the people who smoked dope. If they did it a lot, it was called a bad habit.

Fast forward to 2019. The first attempts to legalize/normalize the use of marijuana involved medical use. This required that anyone who got a prescription had to have a condition diagnosed by a professional. Suddenly, all those people who had smoked for fun for years, now have a medical condition, and have become those pitiable individuals who must have the pot because of a condition they suffer from. With the rise of legal recreational marijuana, I expect an explosion of use, with all the attendant problems, just as we saw with alcohol in 1600's Europe. Whenever a drug becomes widely available at reasonable cost, it seems that people will use it to excess until some social controls are in place.

Wayne