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Gundogblue
06-05-2019, 08:10 AM
After a casting accident 40 yrs ago I started back casting last yr. I’ve never done this but I’ve read that after the cartridges are all done a lot of guys will wipe them off, then put them back in the tumbler to polish them. They say it accomplishes two things if loading for a leeever gun. One is it will help keep the magazine tube cleaner longer if there is no boolit lube anywhere on the finished cartridge, and two if they’re polished it can aid in feeding. But I’ve also read that the cleaning media can work it’s way into the cartridge via the primer, but I find that hard to believe as those primers are presses in to the primer pocket pretty good. So is there any opinion from you guys on this?
Paul

toot
06-05-2019, 08:16 AM
I know that when you tumble a loaded cartridge you will break down the granule size of the powder and change the burning rate! don't ever tumble a loaded cartridge!.

trails4u
06-05-2019, 08:19 AM
:popcorn:

Oh boy....here we go. :)

Dusty Bannister
06-05-2019, 08:54 AM
:popcorn:

Oh boy....here we go. :)

Again? OK, here is a link to a site search showing the various threads (5,910 of them) where it has been discussed again and again.....

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/google.php?cx=partner-pub-6216953551359885%3A1942134700&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Tumble+loaded+cartridges&sa.x=10&sa.y=11&siteurl=castboolits.gunloads.com%2Fshowthread.php% 3F382902-Any-truth-in-this&ref=castboolits.gunloads.com%2Fforumdisplay.php%3F 8-Cast-Boolits&ss=8980j4201142j33

Burnt Fingers
06-05-2019, 09:02 AM
I know that when you tumble a loaded cartridge you will break down the granule size of the powder and change the burning rate! don't ever tumble a loaded cartridge!.

This has been debunked by more than one person. One guy left loaded ammo in a tumbler for more than a week and there was not breakdown of the powder.

RED BEAR
06-05-2019, 09:04 AM
Well once more can't hurt can it. Although i can't name the actual people or study that checked i do rember reading that there is no change in the powder from tumbling . I did it for 30+ years before i read you were not supposed to do so. Still do it makes them pretty . It also removes anything left from loading. Not sure bout keeping magazine cleaner but it can't hurt. Sorry if this gets this going again but the fellow asked i figure he wants to know.

gwpercle
06-05-2019, 09:12 AM
I simply wipe mine off . Saves electricity , polishing media and having to wipe them off after getting them out of the tumbler.

If you want to tumble clean them ...go for it .

I was advised not to run loaded cartridges in the tumbler... so I don't. I was also advised not to cross the street without looking both ways...that advice sounded good too .

Gundogblue
06-05-2019, 09:59 AM
Everyone here is making good points, so I just sent an email to Hogdon, asking them this very question. If and when I hear back from them I’ll post what they say.
Thanks,
Paul

JimB..
06-05-2019, 10:16 AM
Everyone here is making good points, so I just sent an email to Hogdon, asking them this very question. If and when I hear back from them I’ll post what they say.
Thanks,
Paul

They will say don’t, for the same reason that most gun makers say not to shoot reloads.

country gent
06-05-2019, 10:37 AM
I have used a rotary to tumble loaded ammo at times but several things to do. 1 use fresh untreated media. You don't want to be adding crud from old media to this. Fill the drum to 70% full or better this makes the tumbling softer and easier on the ammo. Only tumble as long as needed to remove lubes it doesn't take very long 20-30 mins is usually enough. I know when Jenson loaded the palma ammo they tumbled the loaded ammo. I'm pretty sure the manufacturers tumble loaded ammo also. An almost full drum with new media and short times.

I still would recommend wiping ammo down to remove any dust still adhering to the ammo, this may be worse on the firearms than the lube do to the mild abrasiveness

Mica_Hiebert
06-05-2019, 10:58 AM
I wet clean and polish my brass with stainless steel chips in a rock tumbler and use powder coated bullets instead of lube so nothing to polish when I'm done. I actually hate dry tumbling I have never been able to keep the dust and gritty off my cases. I've tried dryer sheets and mineral spirits.

mdi
06-05-2019, 11:26 AM
I can remember reading this "controversy" when I first started looking in on reloading forums. One side says "no big deal" and cites many examples of why it is OK to tumble live ammo. The other side says "NO!, you will change the powder's burn characteristics and blow yourself up", citing powder mfg info on dangerous powder handling/methods, etc. Never a consensus reached...

I'm in the "I don't tumble handloads" camp not because I worry about rapid disassemble on my firearms, but my finished handloads don't need cleaning, but I lean towards the "go ahead and tumble" side...

I have tumbled some military surplus ammo that was dirty and tarnished with no ill affects, but I didn't do a side by side comparison in velocity or accuracy, I just shot them...

georgerkahn
06-05-2019, 11:39 AM
I like my lead "shiny" -- just looks prettier, so after loading I do a final "quality control" where I examine each case for no "accidents waiting to happen" (e.g., split necks., etc.), check total cartridge weight on my Dillon Determinator, ensuring it is in "correct range" to enable my picking out (if any, usually, 99.9% not) cases with either no powder, or a double charge. (I have pulled several which were ok in powder -- just anomalies in the occasional case weighing much more or less than others) Lastly, before being placed in MTM cartridge box, I "wipe" entire case with a paper towel, where here, too, I can ensure primers were in fact seated to pocket bottom. The whole process takes less than 15 minutes to "do a box of fifty", and really gives me a warm & fuzzy feeling when I'm about to pull the trigger. (I do believe not having worries re ammunition removes enough stress to make shooting much more of a pleasure!) Note I exclusively use Imperial sizing wax, and do believe my paper towel wiping spreads a perhaps microscopic layer on entire case, attenuating corrosion, too.
I have several leverguns, and... that's all I've been doing.
geo

toallmy
06-05-2019, 06:21 PM
I polish the deprimed brass before loading most of the time , if not I just wipe off the case lube with a rag after loading .
I don't know if the powder will break down or not , and I probably never will .

bmortell
06-05-2019, 06:53 PM
if your putting lead in a tumbler isn't that a good way to get lead dust in the air?

lightman
06-05-2019, 07:05 PM
I seriously doubt that anything will enter the cartridge though the primer. I once had a friend that sold reloaded ammo through his gun shop. He loaded on a Star machine using steel dies. He put the loaded cartridges in a coffee can full of solvent to cut the case lube. I never remember him having a problem. These were 38 special and 45 ACP.

Tumbling loaded ammo; I've read about all of the warnings and fears but I have not experienced any problems.

JSnover
06-05-2019, 07:29 PM
if your putting lead in a tumbler isn't that a good way to get lead dust in the air?Dry tumbler media contains plenty of hazardous dust but the standard precautions work.
Keep the lid on while tumbling, naturally. Don't get your face in there for a lungful while the lid is off. Wash your hands after handling it.

fatelk
06-05-2019, 09:29 PM
I used to do it too. Tumbled a lot of rounds with no ill effects at all. I just don't care for sticky ammo. It was just for a short time though, not overnight or anything.

Nowadays I don't use my dry tumbler at all anymore. Like Mica Hiebert in post #11, I wet tumble my brass and powder coat my bullets. They come off the press so nice and clean and shiny, there would be nothing gained at all with a ride in the tumbler.

Walks
06-05-2019, 09:47 PM
I can remember wiping off the Jeweler's Rouge/Walnut shell of the brass tumbled in a big Thumblers Rock polisher when I was kid.

The rouge would cause eventual wear on the sizing dies. Used a rag dampened with acetone.

Real shiny cases.

bmortell
06-05-2019, 09:51 PM
when im done making ammo i just set the pile in the middle of a full size old bath towel, grab each ends bunched up pulled tight, then tumble them back in forth inside the towel. its enough to wipe off extra lube or those tiny brass shaving from case mouths

Unless someone makes a chart of pressure data with every type of powder vs time tumbled im not gonna feel safe with some anecdotal evidence. Theres pobably some powders where you could wear off the outer layer and it dont change much, others might change a bunch, im not going to guess and check i kinda like my face where its at

Wild Bill 7
06-05-2019, 10:32 PM
I use to do the same as bmortell with the exception I would spritz a little mineral sprits on the towel first. Cleans the excess lube off post haste. Now I powder coat so I don't have to do that anymore.

fatelk
06-05-2019, 10:51 PM
when im done making ammo i just set the pile in the middle of a full size old bath towel, grab each ends bunched up pulled tight, then tumble them back in forth inside the towel. its enough to wipe off extra lube or those tiny brass shaving from case mouths

Unless someone makes a chart of pressure data with every type of powder vs time tumbled im not gonna feel safe with some anecdotal evidence. Theres pobably some powders where you could wear off the outer layer and it dont change much, others might change a bunch, im not going to guess and check i kinda like my face where its at

They say you can't prove a negative...

I've been following this subject for years, thought it was interesting back when I used dry tumblers. A number of guys online really got into it, tumbling live ammo of various calibers with various powders sometimes days on end, using scientific controls, magnified photos, and chronograph results. To be honest it was all pretty convincing. At least it convinced me that the short amount of time I tumbled my ammo was nothing I was going to worry about, at all. I never saw any evidence to the contrary, only theories, worries, and what-ifs.

That's not to say that something bad couldn't happen under unforeseen circumstances, so your point is definitely valid; it's just that I was personally comfortable with what I was doing, and it worked for me.

That said, I really can't blame anyone for erring on the side of caution. That is often a wise course of action. If you're not comfortable tumbling, and what you do works well for you, then it's all for the better!

I also have to add: did I mention how much I love powder coated bullets? :)

Peregrine
06-05-2019, 11:17 PM
This is a really easy one to test I think. Load a bunch of identical ammo, tumble groups of 5 rounds for a varying amount of time, test velocity against each other and a control.

Use a middle of the road powder charge so dramatic overpressure isn't a concern. And it shouldn't be.

I'd do it myself but after some reading and a little thought I'm pretty sure it doesn't make a difference. I don't tumble loaded ammo myself anyways but that's just because I don't see a need.

Rcmaveric
06-05-2019, 11:47 PM
Never new there was a controversy. If my calibrated eye says the loaded rounds need a cleaning, then i give them a cleaning.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

kevin c
06-06-2019, 02:37 AM
This is a really easy one to test I think. Load a bunch of identical ammo, tumble groups of 5 rounds for a varying amount of time, test velocity against each other and a control.

Use a middle of the road powder charge so dramatic overpressure isn't a concern. And it shouldn't be.

I'd do it myself but after some reading and a little thought I'm pretty sure it doesn't make a difference. I don't tumble loaded ammo myself anyways but that's just because I don't see a need.

I am one of those who actually tried this. I used 180 grain 40 S&W slugs over N320. I think I went up to 30 minutes in a vibratory tumbler filled with a mix of corn cob and walnut hull. I put enough rounds in at the beginning to rattle my teeth with the racket when I turned it on. Short version is that there wasn't any appreciable average velocity change, but there was more spread in the SD.

So I quit doing that. I kinda like the single digit SD's I can now get just using the aforementioned towel hammock with a few spirits of rubbing alcohol.

gwpercle
06-06-2019, 09:33 AM
Everyone here is making good points, so I just sent an email to Hogdon, asking them this very question. If and when I hear back from them I’ll post what they say.
Thanks,
Paul

Good idea , whatever Hodgdon says I will accept .
Gary

gwpercle
06-06-2019, 09:37 AM
I am one of those who actually tried this. I used 180 grain 40 S&W slugs over N320. I think I went up to 30 minutes in a vibratory tumbler filled with a mix of corn cob and walnut hull. I put enough rounds in at the beginning to rattle my teeth with the racket when I turned it on. Short version is that there wasn't any appreciable average velocity change, but there was more spread in the SD.

So I quit doing that. I kinda like the single digit SD's I can now get just using the aforementioned towel hammock with a few spirits of rubbing alcohol.

Now that info is rather eye opening...didn't expect it. Maybe tumbling loaded rounds is not the best thing to do.
Thanks for the post Kevin,
Gary

robg
06-06-2019, 10:06 AM
its not a problem .if it was how could you transport ammunition ?

owejia
06-06-2019, 10:17 AM
Best answer so far in this discussion.

mdi
06-06-2019, 11:36 AM
They say you can't prove a negative...

I've been following this subject for years, thought it was interesting back when I used dry tumblers. A number of guys online really got into it, tumbling live ammo of various calibers with various powders sometimes days on end, using scientific controls, magnified photos, and chronograph results. To be honest it was all pretty convincing. At least it convinced me that the short amount of time I tumbled my ammo was nothing I was going to worry about, at all. I never saw any evidence to the contrary, only theories, worries, and what-ifs.

That's not to say that something bad couldn't happen under unforeseen circumstances, so your point is definitely valid; it's just that I was personally comfortable with what I was doing, and it worked for me.

That said, I really can't blame anyone for erring on the side of caution. That is often a wise course of action. If you're not comfortable tumbling, and what you do works well for you, then it's all for the better!

I also have to add: did I mention how much I love powder coated bullets? :)

I remember one of those experiments mentioned. The tester made up a few hundred .223 rounds, all the same. H tumbled a bunch for a few hours then shot a few over is chrony and disassembled a few. He inspected the powder under a microscope and compared to some fresh powder. He continued this experiment each time adding to the tumbling time. He worked up to several days, 24 hrs per day and the overall results were no change. Microscopic visual inspection and velocity testing (can't remember if accuracy was recorded) were virtually unchanged, or no more differences than any session to session variations.

One point usually brought up was how the armed forces shipped their ammo; via plane, train , truck, boat, jeep, mule and down to the grunt humping a bandoleer/pouch fill of ammo. If all this vibration, jostling for who knows how long, had any effect on ammo performance, the ammo would not be acceptable for use by any branch of the service...

bmortell
06-06-2019, 08:00 PM
I have heard to change carry ammo yearly from multiple sources and their reasoning was that its being transported and shaking around for that long so I wouldn't say its unheard of

MT Gianni
06-06-2019, 08:22 PM
While I don't do it the factories do.

Alferd Packer
06-09-2019, 12:43 AM
What about all the war ammo shippped over the ocean in the holds of zig zag convoys that were tossed by the rocking and vibration thru the ship's being tossed by waves back and forth.
Then a lot of that ammo came back by ocean trip too.
Also bouncing in the bed of a truck or even in an ammo box in armored vehicles.Not a smooth ride either.

Peregrine
06-09-2019, 01:56 AM
Short version is that there wasn't any appreciable average velocity change, but there was more spread in the SD.

So I quit doing that. I kinda like the single digit SD's I can now get just using the aforementioned towel hammock with a few spirits of rubbing alcohol.

That's pretty interesting, although my theory would be that those SD changes might be due to seating depth variations due to bullets being bumped inwards/vibrated outwards on not changes to the structure of the powder.

Frankly my attention is more occupied by being impressed you get single digit SD's with .40S&W, and even more so that whatever shooting you're doing with it seems to require that attention. ;)

kevin c
06-09-2019, 03:49 AM
I take no credit; it's the N320: a stick powder that meters extremely well. Through my unmodified Dillon measure I can throw sets of ten consecutive charges that added together only vary +\- a tenth of a grain, and I've let the measure run empty and get the same weight drop for each throw down to the last partial. Same for 9mm. Many shooters in my sport using N320 report the same kind of numbers.

The irony is that we like the small SD not because we want super accurate ammo (the US version of action pistol has a max scoring zone that's about 6" by 11", shot at distances as close as point blank up to [rarely] 90 feet), but because very velocity consistent ammo allows us to run close to the power factor floor that affects the scoring value of hits. That's desireable because lower power factor generally means less recoil and therefore faster multiple shots.

Or you could just say we're a bunch of recoil sensitive wimps :wink:

ETA: good thought there on possible OAL changes from tumbling the rounds. Mebbe I'll try to test that when I put my press back together (waiting on parts from Dillon).

Hickory
06-09-2019, 05:33 AM
This is a very interesting subject. And these are my thoughts.

If there is two or more loose objects coming in contact with each other and are in a state of motion [vibration] there must surely be a alteration in those objects. Even mountains will deteriorate to rocks and sand in time and they don't vibrate for it to happen.

But, we are talking about a container (cartridge) with loose powder, but what if the powder is not loose, but compressed even slightly? Or is it loose powder in the cartridge that susceptible to deterioration.

So, I ask myself, how much motion and for how long to cause any change in the burn rate of the powder? And are all loose powders in the cartridge affected the same way from being vibrated?

I sometimes wonder about the reason why some handguns suddenly blowup with light charges of loose powder. Could the cartridges have been run through a vibrator?

I don't tumble my ammunition after loading, this is an area where Murphy's Law might come into play, but I do wipe them down after loading.

6bg6ga
06-09-2019, 05:47 AM
I've tumbled loaded cases for a long time. I like nice looking ammunition. Never had a problem doing it and I doubt that I ever will.

trapper9260
06-09-2019, 05:47 AM
What about all the war ammo shippped over the ocean in the holds of zig zag convoys that were tossed by the rocking and vibration thru the ship's being tossed by waves back and forth.
Then a lot of that ammo came back by ocean trip too.
Also bouncing in the bed of a truck or even in an ammo box in armored vehicles.Not a smooth ride either.

The ship dose not rock as much as you think for the ammo to be move around like it would be in a tumbler. I know , I was in the navy and been in some rough seas that you had to tie yourself in your rack and see a metal office desk slid from one side of a room to another. Also when going up a flight of stairs you just wait for the ship to do down and you are on the next floor of the ship.
I do not tumble live ammo .I just wipe down the round after I load them. As for the tube in a lever gun. I just clean it when I clean the gun.There is really not much in the tube as long you take care of the ammo .

Larry Gibson
06-09-2019, 10:38 AM
trapper9260

Perhaps a few days, weeks or even a full year deployment ride on/in a tracked vehicle with ammo (9mm upwards or 40 mm) sitting loose in ammo cans being vibrated as much or more than any commercial tumbler of vibrator will would change your mind......

Larry Gibson
06-09-2019, 10:40 AM
This is a very interesting subject. And these are my thoughts.

If there is two or more loose objects coming in contact with each other and are in a state of motion [vibration] there must surely be a alteration in those objects. Even mountains will deteriorate to rocks and sand in time and they don't vibrate for it to happen.

But, we are talking about a container (cartridge) with loose powder, but what if the powder is not loose, but compressed even slightly? Or is it loose powder in the cartridge that susceptible to deterioration.

So, I ask myself, how much motion and for how long to cause any change in the burn rate of the powder? And are all loose powders in the cartridge affected the same way from being vibrated?

I sometimes wonder about the reason why some handguns suddenly blowup with light charges of loose powder. Could the cartridges have been run through a vibrator?

I don't tumble my ammunition after loading, this is an area where Murphy's Law might come into play, but I do wipe them down after loading.

That's the theory. However, many theories just do not pan out in reality.........

Hickory
06-09-2019, 03:18 PM
That's the theory. However, many theories just do not pan out in reality.........

It's my theory and I'm sticking with it!
I hate Murphy's Law when it sneaks up on you.

osteodoc08
06-09-2019, 04:02 PM
I usually inspect mine and wipe them down as they go into the ammo case. I’ve accidentally tumbled mine, including an45/70 with a collar button in STM and it shot just fine.

RED BEAR
06-09-2019, 09:35 PM
I really like pretty bullets so i tumble mine. If you don't think its a good idea then don't. Now that works pretty good don't you think.