800x and cast in .41Mag

[kgb]

For deer hunting round development I've used Lil'Gun, AA9 and 2400 to get velocities over 1200fps with 250gr and 265gr cast boolits, over 1400fps with 210-220's in jacketed. With 170gr Sierras it's been 800x but I've also found a good loading with the 250gr CP GC and 800x for close to 1200fps. The more I look around, I see 250gr .45 LC at around 1000fps is plenty so why not lower my 250's to that? I've gotten Titegroup to group using 6.5gr, and want to drop my 800x loadings to see if it'll still work with the 250's at lower speed.

Is 800x suitable for lower velocity in the .41, even down to 900fps or so? I haven't found "reduced" load data for that powder although it is listed for lower pressure .44 Special and .45 Colt. I don't think it's anything like 296 and H110 in needing high speed to work, but haven't seen proof.

Kirk

[missionary5155]

I looked into my old Lyman book (only have 2 books here) and it shows a starting load of 2400 14 gr and a velocity of 1075 with a 240 grain boolit...
Personally I would not be comparing .41 mag (my FAVORITE revolver caliber) to .45 colt... .45 colt is a FAT boolit and transfers alot more energy faster than a .41. The .41 has to expand to = the .45 in energy transfer. And remember the .45 is also expanding on contact so the two will never be the same. Granted a 250 gr boolit at 900 fps is BAD news... But when it comes to dropping whitetails I would not be looking for a minimum load...

[AZ-Stew]

If you can find someone who has one of the old, tan-colored Dupont Handloader's Guides, they should be able to give you some reduced loads. I'm not at home right now or I'd look it up for you.

One of the problems with the .41 Magnum (my favorite handgun cartridge) is that EVERYONE who writes articles about it or publishes load data for it seems to think that it should only be stoked to maximum power, ignoring the marvelous qualities of this fine cartridge when it's loaded to 900-950 fps. Reduced load data for it is scarce. Cast boolit data is relatively scarce, as well, apparently for the same reason. One exception to what I said about published data is an article Mike Venturino wrote a couple of years ago for Handloader magazine.

You may also want to refer to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, or their latest (#49?) handloading manual. You may find what you want there.

I use 6.7 grains of SR-7625 (gray label) with a CCI standard (non-magnum) large pistol primer and a 210-220 gr Keith SWC for mild loads. It burns a bit faster than Unique, while 800-X runs a bit slower than Unique. The Hodgdon Annual Manual shows it back-to-back with SR-4756 which, if I recall correctly, was recently announced as being unsuitable for the .41 Magnum.

For your .250 cast I'd start at about 6.5 grains with a standard primer and work up using a chrono until you find what you want. This is unpublished data and you use it at your own risk.

Regards,

Stew

[Larry Gibson]

That must mean I'm "old" because I have one of the "old" Dupont Guides!For the .41 Magnum using a 210 gr lead SWC in Remington cases with a 2 1/2 primer it lists 11.5 gr 800X at 1475 fps (10" barrel) and 38700 CUP. It recommends reducing 10% and working up. I've not used 800X in the .41 so I can comment on it's worth.

Larry Gibson

[AZ-Stew]

Thanks, Larry. I'm home now and was just about to go get my copy (I'm "old", too) and look it up. Reducing the load by 10 percent will still put it in the "magnum" class of loads, probably over 1,200 fps. This is what I meant by saying all the data for the .41 was stoked to the max. I'll leave the computer idle for a few minutes while I go look up some info in a couple of other resources...

OK. I'm back.

The copy of the Dupont guide I can find right now predates 800-X. (I'm REALLY old.) I have a later edition, but can't put my hands on it right now. I researched the Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook and their handloading manuals going back to #46, as well as the RCBS Cast Bullet Handbook. None of the sources list 800-X for any loads, jacketed or cast, Magnum or moderate velocity.

The Lyman #46 lists SR-4756 at 8.0 grains for 900 fps using their 215gr GC SWC, and 9.8 grains for just over 1,000 fps using the 410459 Keith-style SWC.

That's about all the info I can give you. You're on your own if you decide to work moderate loads with 800-X, but I'm sure there is a load the will give the velocity you want. There are a number of reasons the people producing the manuals do not work with certain powders in certain cartridges. Accuracy, erratic pressures and others fill the list.

Safety first. Maybe you should shell out the $20 and buy a pound of a recommended powder.

My $0.02.

Regards,

Stew

[missionary5155]

Hello again. 7 grains of Unique will get you about 900 fps using a 240 gr #2 alloy boolit 15,400 CUP up to 10 grs. 1265 fps 38,100 CUP (old Lyman Book)... I use Unique in all my revolvers and have never had any trouble with low -near mag loads..

[runfiverun]

i have used 8 gr's of 800-x with a 250 in my 45 colt you gotta weigh these individually.
or use a lee [there i said it i use a lee product] scoop to get good consistency with 800-x.

[Boomer Mikey]

Your results using 6.5 grains of TiteGroup isn't uncommon... This charge has been very accurate in my 41's, 44's, and 45's with 210 - 260 grain cast bullets.

This isn't a plinking load either - 1297 fps out of my 20" 1894FG with a 215 grain bullet and 1093 fps out of my 6.5" Blackhawk. 240's in the 44's go about 100 fps slower and 260's in the 45's another 100 fps slower. I consider all of these very capable for anything 400 pounds or less out to 100 yards.

I've even shot 200m rifle silhouette with this load in my Marlin 1894FG and I haven't wrung a ram yet.

I avoid 700x and 800x due to their metering qualities and used 700x for some loads until TiteGroup came along.

My heavy load for the 41's is 20 grains of H110 with the discontinued Sierra 220 grain silhouette bullet. I have over 400 of these left but I don't shoot them nearly as much as the TiteGroup loads.

Have fun,

Boomer :Fire:

[kgb]

Thanks, guys, looks like it might be lack of effort on the load developer's parts, not necessarily that the powder is unsuited to lower velocity as with H110, 296 and Lil'Gun.

I shoot more shotgun than anything, and right now have Green Dot, Solo1250, HS6, American Select, and PB, plus also have vvN320 and Bullseye. I've used Clays, Universal Clays, 700X, Blue Dot, Unique and 296/H110, everything listed above, in .41 loadings. Stew, I'm not afraid to spend $20 on powders, in fact usually too eager which is why I end up with all of these. :-D Not much data on N320 for .41's but plenty for .44Spl and .45Colt so I again extrapolated and have found two good loadings with the cast bullets I'm using. With all of the testing, I've taken to trying all of this in only two guns to keep things reasonable. Generally a good load in one is about as good in the other, so the testing narrows down a range for me. I'd asked about 800x to see if there was anything published to start with......I'll just load down a grain or two and re-engage. Runfiverun, I do weigh every 800x loading by hand although the Dillon measure is better than the bench-mounted models I've used in the past.

I keep every article I can find on .41's, got them going back a ways in several magazines and shooter's bibles, etc. I've got the Mike Venturino article and that one has an aggravating section in it. He mentioned he couldn't get the 200gr WFN bullet to shoot well, then on a whim added another grain of powder to find it producing very good accuracy. For anyone who would choose to believe Richard Lee, in his reloading book he mentions cast bullet hardness as being a key to accuracy. He was talking rifle bullets, I think, but stated that velocity is pretty much the wrong thing to look at. Pressure is what makes cast bullets work or not work, and velocity is nearly a by-product of where your powder's best pressure range lies compared to the bullet itself. Nearly everything I see regarding soft vs. hard cast bullets presents a recommended velocity range to be used.

Seems within the range of powders we have, if what Lee says is true, you should be able to determine for example that, say, 20,000 psi works perfectly with a given bullet in your gun. Reaching that pressure with Red Dot/700X/Bullseye might happen at 800fps and reaching that pressure with 800X might happen at 1100fps while reaching that pressure with 296 might happen at 1500fps. Same bullet, three powders, three velocities and all at the right pressure. IF that is the way things work, I wondered why Mike Venturino upped the charge of Titegroup, found accuracy improved, then no kidding finished the thought with "go figure". Maybe he doesn't know about Lee's theory/ideas, maybe he didn't care to know
why that happened.

That 20K is a made up pressure for illustration, so if you feel like jumping up and down and saying Red Dot at 20k psi is unsafe, please keep it to yourself.

Regarding the 170's, I phoned Sierra and asked them about using this bullet with Lil'Gun. The man on the other end of the line said their lab started working with moderate charges, found pressures to be too variable/erratic, and stopped. He seemed frustrated as he told me this, sounds like there might be occasional disconnects within the company, but that's really not a surprise to me.

So, I told him what I intended to do and he asked me to reply when I finished. Here's what I got, using once-fired PMC cases and CCI 300 primers:

Started at 1568fps, two grains later I got 1650fps, using a Blackhawk with a 7.5" barrel. My chrono back then (2003) didn't calculate Sd, but ES for 5 shots was between 32 and 57fps from lower charge to higher. I was testing in that Ruger, a 657CH with 6.5" barrel, and T/C barrels of 10" and 14". I also went one more grain up since there was no stickiness in extraction (the S&W has shown that first with other tests), and shot in the T/C 14" got 2069fps. The Sierra bullet technician said it all sounded about right, but his chances of getting the lab to re-test the 170 and Lil'Gun were about nil.

Kirk

[Mavrick]

I've been working with my 6" S&W with the same idea that Lee has. I think that if I keep good records, and compare velocities, with an understanding of different powders, I may be able to prove, IMHO, the assumption.
I've been working lately, with 800X and a target-velocity of 850-950fps.
I've used a Lyman 170gr truncated-cone boolit with 7.0-8.0gr for 750-900fps.
I've tried an RCBS 210gr Keith-type semi-wadcutter and 6.0-7.5gr for 700-900fps.
The alloy has been ww+2% tin, but I will be trying 2-6-92 and 5-5-90 this winter, and adding a Lyman 215gr Keith-type semi-wadcutter gas-check that I've used with other experiments.
I've weighed all experimental loads, but I use the 170gr for Action-Pistol and falling-plate competition, and ya need to burn through some ammo for that. I have to agree that 800X may not be ideal to measure, but it is better than many powders that are, because it fills a large case like the .41 more than they do.
Have fun,
Gene

[jimkim]

This is from Handloader issue #191, Feb/Mar. 1998.

41mag, 210gr RCBS 41-210-SWC,
IMR, HI-SKOR 800-X, 9.0gr, 983fps,

It isnt a heavy bullet, but maybe it will help you.

[runfiverun]

just try the 5 grs titegroup i like 6 for "stuff".
like a lightish 357 mag. load.

[kgb]

I switched up a little and did the testing in a FA M97 (7.5") and the Dan Wesson (6") I'd been trying to sell. Also took along the chronograph to find the actual speeds and got this using the Cast Performance 250 Gas Check bullet:

10gr of 800x 1144fps in the Freedom Arms and 1104 in the Dan Wesson
9gr of 800x 1069fps in the FA and 1019fps in the DW
6.5 of Titegroup 1007fps in the FA, 968fps in the DW
Also re-ran a load using 7.0 of IMR PB with 215gr cast bullets, M97/1030fps and DW/1002fps. I've quit recording group sizes for handgun loads, just listing them as Excellent, Good, Fair or Poor. Those that show up Exc or Good get re-tested to see if any are flukes.

Looks like room to drop with both powders, and the FA liked the Titegroup load a lot while the DW printed well with 9.0/800x. At around 1000fps I think either will work at 50 yards.

Dan Wesson results first, then M97. For some reason the DW group strung horizontally with the Titegroup loading. Shooting at 25 yards, front of frames pressed into sandbag.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd256/Gordonpicsrus/Arms/DW/CP250sDan.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd256/Gordonpicsrus/Arms/DW/CP250sM97.jpg

[Bob Jones]

Thanks for all the good info. I picked up a 12 pound keg of 800X a while back at a price I couldn't refuse. Got it for $50, the guy selling it said it was a pain to measure and he didn't want to fool with it. I found that my Hornady measure does fine with it so long as I use the rifle metering insert (wide diameter) rather than the usual pistol insert (long and skinny).

Now that the garden's about put up for the winter I'll be getting some time to try these loads in my .41. Been doing almost nothing but canning for the last month.

[crowbeaner]

Try some SR4756 too. It meters like water and really makes a .41 sing. I used 10.0 over the RCBS 41-210-KT boolit in my M57s. From the tan 1990 IMR guide;RP 2 1/2 primer,RP 210 grain lead boolit,10" barrel,11.5 of 800X, and 11.7 of 4756 max. Reduce to start and have fun.

[GLynn41]

I have used 800x for years and still do-- it is fairly fast with the 170 -- 1538 from my 6" DWA-- now this is a slooow .41- so this quite fast--only so so in accuracy though--now here is the charge -- I use! 13.0 gr-- with the 210jhp up to a 230 Keith-- I used 12 -12.5 at the top -- and have in my Redhawk gone to 13 grain-- as to light loads used 7 grains for years with anything up to 280gr-- metering can --no is a pain in my RCBS powder measure--but it is certainly do able- for a number of years I used nothing but 800x-- my only problem is it is kinda dirty -but it gives good velocity for the normal weights in the .41--200 to 250 or so grains and it does well with cast-- i do not recomend these loads as i only know what I have done

[prs]

Since it is getting colder outside, let me warn you that 800X is slower to ignite in cold weather. My experience is with 16ga 1oz shot shells at moderate velocity, but I reckon that characteristic might carry over to metalic cart.

prs

[kgb]

A few years on, I wound up with 9.0gr of 800x for my cast loads in an 1894S. With the group buy Lee 230gr http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?25891-Closed-Boomer-s-413640-PB-41-Mag-237-Grain-Group-Buy-is-Here! this comes out to 1281fps avg while the MIHA 185gr of the same nose shape hits 1332fps. I shoot the lighter one at Pistol Cartridge Cowboy Lever Silhouette and the heavier at the 200m game of CLA. The 230gr boolits shoot into 4.5" at 100 yards, less than ideal, but I tested them (at only 50 yards) as unsized-but-lubed and was impressed with the improvement. At the last event I managed to shoot a 31 and give a good bit of credit to the improved accuracy of non-sizing. Having sight settings for the 185's out to 100m, I used them on chickens and pigs then mistakenly shot them at the first bank of turkeys. With the 230gr boolit's setting for that distance I still managed to hit 2, then realized the error and got 4 of the final 5 with the 230s. Not that I'd have cleared more than 2 by using 230s on that first stage, but you never know. Maybe next time, coming up soon.

Also found that 9.0/800x shot the 170gr Sierra HP at 1265fps with good accuracy. That one did, however, manage to push one pig target back on its stand and leave it there with a slightly low center hit. That's at only 50m in the PC lever game.

Primer-wise, Federal 150s and WLPs shoot at worst 9fps apart on average, although I found higher ES with the Federals. Non-sized and with Federal 150s, the 230s shot 4fps faster than lubri-sized with WLP (5 shots each). No big swings. I'm happy.