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billsr
10-24-2008, 09:14 AM
I'm new to paper patching and have a question. I am shooting a .40-65 with a .400 diameter paper patch bullet. I have the template to make the patch and after wrapping the bullet, my diameter is only .406 or maybe .405 at times. Bore diameter is .400, groove is .407. Could I lengthen the patch so as to get 3 wraps on the bullet to increase diameter or should I use a thicker paper. I am using the onionskin paper from Buffalo Arms and it measures approx. 2.5 thousandths.

45 2.1
10-24-2008, 10:02 AM
I'm new to paper patching and have a question. I am shooting a .40-65 with a .400 diameter paper patch bullet. I have the template to make the patch and after wrapping the bullet, my diameter is only .406 or maybe .405 at times. Bore diameter is .400, groove is .407. Could I lengthen the patch so as to get 3 wraps on the bullet to increase diameter or should I use a thicker paper. I am using the onionskin paper from Buffalo Arms and it measures approx. 2.5 thousandths.

You would be better off useing thicker paper instead of three wraps. Your paper thickness versus your added diameter doesn't add up though. Usually it works out to be 4 x paper thickness -0.001" for diameter gain. 9 Lb. onionskin is usually 0.002" thick also and follows this formula quite well from 25 caliber thru 50 caliber.

wonderwolf
10-24-2008, 10:05 AM
You can patch to groove diameter or you can patch to bore diameter. I'm guessing with what your trying to do you are wanting to patch for groove diameter. Take the paper you are using and fold it three times and measure the thickness you get with that and add that to your bullet diameter this will give you a good idea what you would end up with if you used 3 wraps...not exact but a good idea. You won't hurt anything with 3 wraps of paper I've done it and it works but things can get tricky with a longer patch.

How does the bullet shoot with just the two wraps you are giving it now? If its doing what you want it to then I personally wouldn't change anything.

Where In Ohio are you? I'm from Lima but am living in Columbus while going to OSU!

jonk
10-24-2008, 10:48 AM
I too am in Ohio (Painesville) and am thinking about bullet patching.

pdawg_shooter
10-24-2008, 10:50 AM
I would use thicker paper. I prefer to patch slightly oversize, lube and push through a die that will give me a finish dia. of +.001 to .002 over groove dia. Over the years this has worked best for me. The rule of thumb is to divide the weight of the paper by 3, and multiply by the number of wraps used. 16# paper divided by 3 times 2 = .010.

billsr
10-24-2008, 10:51 AM
Thanks for the replies. I am getting tipping at 100 yards and also at 200 yards. A couple of times, my bullet went into the target sideways at 200 yards. Not a good thing. I thought possibly I was stretching the paper too much while wrapping, but my diagonals are usually with in a 1/16 of an inch or right on when wrapped.
I live in Elyria, Ohio, which is west of Cleveland about 25 miles.
I have some tractor feed computer paper, which measures approx. 0035 thick. I may try that.
One other thing, I do run the patched bullet through my lubri-sizer using a .410 sizing die.

montana_charlie
10-24-2008, 01:07 PM
You won't hurt anything with 3 wraps of paper I've done it and it works but things can get tricky with a longer patch.
Tricky in what way...tough to get the patch on straight...or some other problem?

Your paper thickness versus your added diameter doesn't add up though. Usually it works out to be 4 x paper thickness -0.001" for diameter gain. 9 Lb. onionskin is usually 0.002" thick also and follows this formula quite well from 25 caliber thru 50 caliber.
I am going about this backward, but that's Ok.
I saw a 'good deal' on some 9-pound onionskin, so I bought it.
I figured to choose a naked bullet diameter based on how much the paper increases diameter.
I will be looking for a final patched diameter of .459-.460" once I choose a 'naked' size. I would prefer that the naked size to be .450"...but certainly not exceed .452".

Wet wrapping this paper twice on some (available) smooth-sided .460" bullets yields a patched diameter of .465 to .466"...essentially the same result described by billsr...and three thousandths less than what I think would be satisfactory.

I wrapped one with three layers, and got an increase of .009" which is close to what I think I will want.

So, tell us (billsr and me) the problems associated with wrapping three times...please.
CM

pdawg_shooter
10-24-2008, 01:11 PM
Green bar computer paper is about all I use anymore. What we have around here is 16# and works out about perfect for me.

billsr
10-24-2008, 01:21 PM
Green bar computer paper is about all I use anymore. What we have around here is 16# and works out about perfect for me.

Yep, I just got a box of it from our old building. We don't use it anymore, so I figured I would help the environment by using it rather than putting it in the dumpster and filling up the landfill.

billsr
10-24-2008, 01:22 PM
Tricky in what way...tough to get the patch on straight...or some other problem?

I am going about this backward, but that's Ok.
I saw a 'good deal' on some 9-pound onionskin, so I bought it.
I figured to choose a naked bullet diameter based on how much the paper increases diameter.
I will be looking for a final patched diameter of .459-.460" once I choose a 'naked' size. I would prefer that the naked size to be .450"...but certainly not exceed .452".

Wet wrapping this paper twice on some (available) smooth-sided .460" bullets yields a patched diameter of .465 to .466"...essentially the same result described by billsr...and three thousandths less than what I think would be satisfactory.

I wrapped one with three layers, and got an increase of .009" which is close to what I think I will want.

So, tell us (billsr and me) the problems associated with wrapping three times...please.
CM

I'm interested also, along with Montana_Charlie, on what problems there are with wrapping the bullet three times. Thanks.

45 2.1
10-24-2008, 02:27 PM
Tricky in what way...tough to get the patch on straight...or some other problem? Paper stretches easily when wet. It is tougher to keep the patch straight and the seam lined up properly. I have two reams of normal 9 lb onionskin and a ream thats says eraseable on it. The eraseable stuff is very hard to "wet" and roll on, but the other two reams roll nicely with two wraps and somewhat unevenly (dependent on the boolit style) when you try three wraps. My paper is 0.002" thick and gives me diameters as stated. Maybe differences in technique or rolling pressure are making your patched diameters different.

I am going about this backward, but that's Ok.
I saw a 'good deal' on some 9-pound onionskin, so I bought it.
I figured to choose a naked bullet diameter based on how much the paper increases diameter.
I will be looking for a final patched diameter of .459-.460" once I choose a 'naked' size. I would prefer that the naked size to be .450"...but certainly not exceed .452". For smokeless use, I size to 0.454" and patched diameter is 0.461".

Wet wrapping this paper twice on some (available) smooth-sided .460" bullets yields a patched diameter of .465 to .466"...essentially the same result described by billsr...and three thousandths less than what I think would be satisfactory. Almost all boolits I wrap are grease groove type, not smooth-sided.

I wrapped one with three layers, and got an increase of .009" which is close to what I think I will want.

So, tell us (billsr and me) the problems associated with wrapping three times...please. CM

billsr
10-24-2008, 03:15 PM
Thanks 45 2.1.

pdawg_shooter
10-24-2008, 04:26 PM
No problem with 3 wraps, just a bit harder to regulate the length of the patch, and a bit more work. The heavier paper used in 2 wraps seem to handle the ware and tear of the trip through the magazine, into the chamber, and down the barrel.

montana_charlie
10-24-2008, 04:33 PM
Tricky in what way...tough to get the patch on straight...or some other problem?Paper stretches easily when wet. It is tougher to keep the patch straight and the seam lined up properly.
So it is an alignment problem, then?
There are no concerns about a three-layered patch entering the leade properly...or difficulties with having the paper cut correctly by the lands?

CM

docone31
10-24-2008, 05:32 PM
With my infamous cigarette roller, I can do 3 wraps and have it really line up well. Mind you, I am wrapping around .30cal. The widest finished wrap is .318.
Three wraps of Meade, two wraps of notebook paper, about the same diameter. The Meade feels stronger, and twists the tails easier.
It can be done.
I cheat, with my roller. I have not to date wrapped off a board. I do know, if the wrap starts going sideways on the roller, I can back it up and straighten it out easily.
I do like paper patches. I am getting a mold for the .30s next week. I am looking to load develoment with those rifles.

45 2.1
10-24-2008, 05:52 PM
So it is an alignment problem, then?
Some and some disortion from paper stretch, at least with thinner 25% rag content papers. It all depends on what you will accept. If the patched boolits from patching sites look good to you, then you will be satisfied with what three wraps will look like. I, on the other hand, know what patched will do when loaded correctly and want mine to align and look perfect. Your choice.
There are no concerns about a three-layered patch entering the leade properly.Boolits should be patched farther down the ogive than what the lands will touch, so that shouldn't be a big concern (unless it is so uneven airflow around the nose unballances it)...or difficulties with having the paper cut correctly by the lands? CM

Lead pot
10-24-2008, 06:19 PM
:confused::coffee:

montana_charlie
10-24-2008, 08:27 PM
So it is an alignment problem, then?
Some and some disortion from paper stretch, at least with thinner 25% rag content papers.
Ok, I'll leave it at that point.
In the rest of your reply, you started off into that zone you like to step into where you allude to knowledge unavailable to the rest of us...which you are not inclined to expound upon.

Thank you for what you were able to share...
CM

Don McDowell
10-25-2008, 12:10 AM
CM, it seems to me that using 3 wraps the bullet isn't patched evenly round, (uneven number of wraps is going to leave part of the bullet undersized) and also getting a clean release of the paper and the bullet gets a bit more problematic.
It is amazing at how well the rifling will be engraved in a bullet patched to bore diameter recovered bullets. Also you'll be able to tell if you need to lengthen the patch as the gap between the ends of the paper will be well defined in the bullet.

Bill bore diameter is probably to be preferred, also using dead soft alloy might help . Case neck tension is a lot more important in paper patch than shooting grease groove. To tight and you'll end up cutting the patch in two at the case mouth, to loose and you can get an unwelcome amount of blowby tearing the patch causing instability. Wads under the bullet really play an important part as well as lube cookies, or lubed wads. Seating to deep can cause a terrible amount of greif in getting good accuracy as well.

RMulhern
10-26-2008, 08:51 PM
If you're having trouble wrapping the bullet.....maybe ya needs to make one of these:

http://groups.msn.com/BPCR/montanacharlie.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1602

Buckshot
10-27-2008, 01:35 AM
CM, it seems to me that using 3 wraps the bullet isn't patched evenly round, (uneven number of wraps is going to leave part of the bullet undersized) and also getting a clean release of the paper and the bullet gets a bit more problematic.

............Odd or even, the number or wraps all the way around the boolit to the beginning point will give you a round cylindrical boolit, that will not leave part of the boolit undersized. How could it? You have 3 wraps all the way around. Leaving off the shrinkage issue when dry, 3 wraps of .002" paper will give you 0.012" additional thickness to the lead slug.

I have no personal experience patching more then 2 wraps. It is possible that as th epaper thickness increases (either by it's own thickness) or the number of wraps, there may be some cushioning or compressing of the paper then would be desireable. Pure conjecture on my part, but I could see that patching up a .400" slug to .450" or .458" could have issues.

...............Buckshot

45 2.1
10-27-2008, 07:06 AM
Ok, I'll leave it at that point. In the rest of your reply, you started off into that zone you like to step into where you allude to knowledge unavailable to the rest of us..The best way to gain knowledge is read, ask questions, then try it yourself. Those that have usually come back to ask a few more questions. I've done it and written about it on this and previous interations of this forum. If you don't ask questions, I can only assume you haven't tried it or got it right the first time (possible, but not probable). I know what my rifles like and will do as far as useing my techniques, what yours will do with your techniques you'll have to find out for yourself. If I can make it shoot, you should be able to also. To what degree depends on you though. which you are not inclined to expound upon.

Thank you for what you were able to share...I'm not a English major here, all the people I teach in my vocation don't pick up very technical methodology very fast, so I have a try it after you get it explained to you, then ask questions type of teaching system. Works well in my business, but not probably so well here. My apologies...............
CM

docone31
10-27-2008, 09:39 AM
I have done three wraps. I found, as compared to two wraps that is a little thin, it makes a big difference.
Doing three wraps to find the thickness needed really worked for me. I use a cigarette roller, so alignment is not an issue. I can lay the patch down in the roller, using the angle of the roller itself as a guide, and wrap that puppy right on.
I am pretty certain, there are machineists within us, that can make a roller to wrap the larger castings. All it is is a piece of plastic, bent on both ends at 90* with two rollers and a vinyl bib.
Last night, I did 50 wraps in less than an hour after cutting them on the template I made. I had no rejects.
I did find, especially when I use the traceing paper, three wraps makes a very stable wrap. I have not done it with the heavier paper I am using with this last batch.
Once dry, it seems like the patch is quite hard. When it sizes, it sizes real consistantly. I cannot see the edge of the wrap when it is sized down. I size from .317-318, the variances I have gotten from wrapping the paper, to .314. Dead on.
It makes a dense solid jacket.
I can work the leading edge loose with my fingernail, but it takes a little effort. It does not rub out with just a flick.
So, yes, I have done three wraps and they shot real well at jacketed loads I got 3" at 100yds untill the barrel heated up and became spaghetti. Then the group got wild.

Don McDowell
10-27-2008, 10:23 AM
Buckshot about the best I can tell you is that, working with that original sharps design bullet (have posted pics here in a couple of different threads) that comes out of the mold at .435 and trying to get the guilt edged accruacy for bpcr match shooting has been a very interesting experiment , and have burned several pounds of powder. I have got it down to good hunting accuracy ie 6 inch groups at 300 yds, but have as yet gotten anything tighter.
Judging from the targets at 200 yds, uneven number of wraps(3) causes a good bit of groupl enlargement, going to 4 wraps helps the accuracy thing a little bit, but the recovered bullets from the 3 and 4 wraps, generally had the bases stuffed full of the paper, and I'm thinking that was a good sized part of the problem, along with too much paper to cleanly release from the bullet and causing problems right from the time the bullet leaves the muzzle.
So from reading the trials and tribulations, my own shooting headaches, and visitiing of folks like Kenny Wasserberger, Rick Mulhern, and Bill Bagwell, among others, 2 wraps is about all you can expect to give good accuracy.
Recovered bullets also can give a fella plenty to scratch your head about, and when you recover these .435 bullets and notice light rifling marks clear up on the nose of the bullet you really start to wonder about the handwringin weanies that always fly out of the closet, with the got to have a powder compression dies so you don't distort the bullets, real life experiences.

docone31
10-27-2008, 10:33 AM
Hey, if I could get 6" at 300yds!
I have not yet found any fired castings. The range is pretty crowded this time of year and time is short. They have fuddy duddie hours, they close at 2pm.
I would love to find one to see where the lands actually engrave on the casting, let alone diagnose the situation on hand.
I use flat base castings. I found I get less tearing of the tail if I just lightly score the base before wrapping.
I have not yet had visible confetti, either from my observations, or anyone else's.
I am on the paper though, real close to the center.

ktw
10-27-2008, 11:17 AM
I have found that paper stretch and distortion varies quite a bit depending on whether you cut the patches with, or across, the grain of the paper. This may, in part, explain the different results people have gotten with 2/3 wraps, resulting patched diameter, etc.

-ktw

powderburnerr
10-27-2008, 11:21 AM
at some point with multiple wraps you would exceed the depth of the riflinng and the bullet could not obdurate to the necessary depth to seal and you may experiance slipping of the bullet on the lands as the wraps slide on one another , I saw this when we wrapped a 440 dia bullet to 76 cal , using newspaper at the cast boolit shoot in winnamucca . they bullet could not obdurate enough to seal and create the neccessary pressure to be a viable round at 20 feet , .. this is an extreme example but does illistrate my statement somewhat . I believe there is a picture of the wrapped bullet in cast pics.....dean

Don McDowell
10-27-2008, 11:24 AM
docone you likely won't get the confetti, unless you go to a lighter paper and just 2 wraps. The 20lb paper that's working the best with my bullet (at the moment) doesn't confetti either, it's more like a recovered shot cup, only in 3 pieces.
For a bpcr load to proove competitive (in my mind anyway) it needs to be no larger than 3 inches at 300 and showing tendencies to go tighter.

ktw
10-27-2008, 11:43 AM
For a bpcr load to proove competitive (in my mind anyway) it needs to be no larger than 3 inches at 300 and showing tendencies to go tighter.

Something I don't see discussed very often are the techniques necessary to achieve this kind of performance when not using a scoped rifle.

I have really only gotten away from scoped rifles and started shooting peep sights seriously in the last 3 or 4 years. I have been using one of the Lee Shaver tang soules/lyman globe front on a reproduction highwall.

Groups have been getting better over time as I gain more experience with the sights, but 1 MOA at 300 yards seems like a mighty high bar to get over when a 10" bull is nothing more than an itty bitty spec in the sights at that range.

Any tips, or links, you can pass along with respect to bench technique, apertures, targets, etc to get close to that kind of performance would be appreciated.

-ktw

Don McDowell
10-27-2008, 12:00 PM
Something I don't see discussed very often are the techniques necessary to achieve this kind of performance when not using a scoped rifle.

I have really only gotten away from scoped rifles and started shooting peep sights seriously in the last 3 or 4 years. I have been using one of the Lee Shaver tang soules/lyman globe front on a reproduction highwall.

Groups have been getting better over time as I gain more experience with the sights, but 1 MOA at 300 yards seems like a mighty high bar to get over when a 10" bull is nothing more than an itty bitty spec in the sights at that range.

Any tips, or links, you can pass along with respect to bench technique, apertures, targets, etc to get close to that kind of performance would be appreciated.

-ktw

Good loads, and lots of trigger time. Listen to what your rifle tells you and forget about what some guru publishes on the net or in magazine articles. Your rifle knows more about what it wants than anybody else.
You also need to completely wash the scoped and smokeless nonsense completely out of your brain pan, and get into the zone. Forget about that target being further off than you would of ever attemted with your smokeless wonderweapon, concentrate on one spot on the target and forget the rest.
Then you need to be able to carry all that you learned and are capable of at your home range, into the firing line of competition, and that's the place where the winners trully get seperated from the folks that don't come out with the highest score.

ktw
10-27-2008, 01:26 PM
Good loads, and lots of trigger time...

I understand developing skills with a lot of hard work and practice. I understand that there aren't any gadgets to buy or quick, easy shortcuts to circumvent the experience. I understand the difference between good loads and not so good loads. I am constantly amazed at how well a peep sighted rifle can shoot given what I am seeing through the sight.

I simply have a looooong way to go on my own personal journey to achieving 1 MOA at 300 yards with a peep sight. I plan to have a good time making the journey. :wink:

-ktw

montana_charlie
10-27-2008, 02:21 PM
at some point with multiple wraps you would exceed the depth of the riflinng
I was waiting for someone to make that point.
That is a problem one might expect to encounter with three (or more) wraps.

I was hoping somebody (with 3-wrap experience) would speak, in detail, about how paper is cut...or perhaps just scored...by rifling.

For instance...
If groove depth is .004" 2 wraps of .002" paper would be cut all the way through.
But, if the .002" paper dropped to (say) .0017" from being stretched while wet, the total thickness becomes .0034".
The paper will get cut all the way through, but will the rifling also cut into the lead..creating the potential for leading in the bore?

On a 3-wrap patch with the same paper...
The total thickness (after stretching) is .0051". That means the rifling can only 'score' the inner wrap halfway through...with a slice .0006" deep.
Is that cut deep enough to cause the paper to finish separating along the 'score'...and blow off cleanly at the muzzle?

I want a bullet patched to .460".
Wrapped twice (with the paper I have for the purpose) I would need a .453" bullet to fill the chamber throat.
This paper will patch a .450" bullet to .4602" if wrapped three times.
That means I could order a mould which does not exceed bore diameter (highly desired), and still use the paper I currently have...two highly desired factors.

Why haven't I just gone ahead and ordered the mould?
Because I wonder if the 'scored' inner wrap will let go immediately at the muzzle.

If the prevailing wisdom is that it probably would not, then I would consider this alternative...
Start with a .449" bullet patched to .4592. As the lead obdurates, it should finish bursting the inner wrap along that 'scored' cut.

But, being less than the throat diameter of my chamber, I might expect to see the dreaded 'paper ring' with this combination...or any combination that used even smaller bullets.

So, there is what I wonder, versus what I think, versus what I want, versus what I hope to avoid.

I am open to any advice or suggestions that are specific to my goal.

For smokeless use, I size to 0.454" and patched diameter is 0.461".
That is very similar to what I have in mind, but I would prefer to stay at (or under) bore diameter for the naked bullet.
I have become convinced that patching to groove is a viable option...even when not using smokeless.
We'll just have to see about that part...

CM

Don McDowell
10-27-2008, 02:41 PM
I simply have a looooong way to go on my own personal journey to achieving 1 MOA at 300 yards with a peep sight. I plan to have a good time making the journey. :wink:

-ktw

:drinks: Keep up the steady pressure you'll do well. That moa group is an elusive bugger, it won't show up often, but you and your rifle will know its there just waiting to show its face.:drinks::-D

docone31
10-27-2008, 02:42 PM
Here is my example, for what it is worth. I am a rank amateur.
My Smelly, is .304 bore. I size the C312/185R mold to .308, then wrap either three times with Meade Acadieme Traceing Paper, or two wraps with printer paper. I then size them to .314.
My groove is .312.
Yes, I have slugged the barrel.
Upon firing,
No visible confetti. No recovered paper, also no recovered castings.
However, my groups got quite small at 100yds. I just finished bedding the barrel, I hope to make the groups smaller.
I use smokeless powder.
There are some severe and comprehensive things I do not know about paper patching, however, I know how my Smelly shoots.
Given the current advice, I should have made the core casting .304. My casting has a nose of .304, and I size to .308. That gives me .004 over bore. My paper, the Meade is .0015, the printer paper is .002.
When I wrap with the Meade, I get .3135. These I used unsized, or as wrapped. The Printer paper is .317 or .318. I seem to get both. These size real well to .314. The casting has lube lands. These size down pretty well, leaving only shadows. I also wrap 1/2 of the way between the crimp groove, and tip of the casting.
I do not even understand why I am getting the decent results I have. I presume, the rifleing, cuts and imprints the paper on, and into the rifleing grooves. As I have not recovered a fired casting, I do not know if the rifleing has imprinted the casting itself. I presume so as the bore is only .304, compared to .308 sizing.
I have not experienced the compressed paper ring in the throat.
I do know, I can outshoot my milsurp loads with paper.
My thoughts on the process,
The pressure is like a ram behind the base of the projectile.
It equally presses on both the engraved and unengraved portion of the base.
The casting expands, bumps up, to fill the bore/groove.
Cut pieces of patch in both the unengraved, and engraved projectile exit the barrel at the same time.
I am guessing, the only real metal contact of the boolitt, is the sides of the rifleing.
I have not had key holes in the paper at 100yds.
My patches should exit the barrel in 10 leafs, with the base falling behind. I have not seen any pieces at all. I don't know what is happening with that.
That is with my recent range experience.
In short, I do not have a clue what is happening, but that is what I have exerienced.
I have been fascinated, and like the results.
I can just sit and patch my rounds in short time.
I have never been so interested in something, this goes way beyond just pushing jacketed into a shell. This has been an experience.
I hope that helps someone, or someone can tell me what happened.

RMulhern
10-27-2008, 05:18 PM
docone31

Get ya one of the 'Boomer .45s.....go to BLACK....and it will even be MORE INTERESTING!!:drinks::mrgreen:

docone31
10-27-2008, 05:48 PM
I want me a Rolly Block!
I want one,
I want one,
I want one!
Wanna do it in 45/90 Octagonal.
I had several Sharps. I liked em.
Believe it or not, I never patched the loads.
I did not paper patch untill my Smelly.
Someday, I am going to git me a Norwegian Rolly Block.

powderburnerr
10-27-2008, 08:41 PM
Charlie ,I have one mould that casts 439 and I use a 3tho paper on it . it cuts the top layer and creases the second and I find 1/2 patches all the time . this is a two wrap bullet at that size and it shoots very well even with only cutting the inner paper , I think it might slide if the paper was that thick wrapped three times It would have no way to grab the inner layer , especially dry , the way I do it.....Dean