Effective range of 45-70 GVT?

[44Blam]

I'm going to go out to the long range this weekend and I am going to bring my Marlin 1895.

Last time I took my Henry in 44 Mag. I was able to hit 400 yards just fine, but I could not take it out to 600 yards...

My 44 mag rounds are 240 grain and going about 1700 fps in the rifle. My 45-70 round are in the 350 range going right around 2000 fps... I am thinking I should be able to reach out a little longer...

I'll give a range report Sunday nite or Monday, but what do y'all think the effective range of a fairly hot loaded 45-70?

[sigep1764]

Weren't some of the Sharps sights graduated out to 1000 yards? Ive never owned a 45/70 but I would think that chunk of lead should be able to accurately hit 600 or 800 yards. Is this going to open sights or scoped? If a scope, what kind and what magnification?

[Catshooter]

Well, not sure what 'effective' means, but in the 1880's the army tested the Springfield Trapdoor out to two and a third miles. The 500 grain bullet would penetrate an inch of oak and then bury itself six inches into the sand. Blackpowder, so maybe less than what you're loading.


Cat

[44Blam]

Weren't some of the Sharps sights graduated out to 1000 yards? Ive never owned a 45/70 but I would think that chunk of lead should be able to accurately hit 600 or 800 yards. Is this going to open sights or scoped? If a scope, what kind and what magnification?

With this rifle, I went with Skinner sights. They are on at 100 yards. No scope but with irons, I can generally hit in the 3-400 yard range with some of my other rifles.

[M-Tecs]

Bullet drop/trajectory is going to be your biggest challenge. Using a BC of .350 here's the drop. Actual BC I am guessing is going to be closer to .3

Range Drop
100- 0
200 -9.5"
300 -32.6
400 -73.2"
500 -135.5"

While I shoot BPCR out to a 1,000 yds at target for hunting with my 45/70 lever guns on deer sized targets I consider 175 yards about max.

[Thumbcocker]

There is a youtube video of a guy in Australia shooting at a target with a Marlin .45-70 at a mile. He was hitting pretty close.

[JimB..]

Weren't some of the Sharps sights graduated out to 1000 yards? Ive never owned a 45/70 but I would think that chunk of lead should be able to accurately hit 600 or 800 yards. Is this going to open sights or scoped? If a scope, what kind and what magnification?

I’ve always thought that those sights in those days were intended for volleys rather than single shooter precision.

[GhostHawk]

No one is going to bring up the Adobe Walls long shot? tsk tsk

[lotech]

Your 2000 fps load will shoot a lot flatter than mine if you can handle the recoil, particularly in an 1895 Marlin. Much depends on how well you can estimate range, something very critical with the .45-70, even with high velocity loads.

For years, I used the Lyman #457193 420-grain flat nose loaded to around 1300 fps in several .45-70s. I zeroed my 1895 Marlin to shoot about 3" high at 100 yards. Bullet drop with this zero at 200 was considerable, probably about 18" or so as I recall. For me, that meant effective hunting range was no more than about 125-150 yards. My Shiloh Sharps with its longer barrel would likely shoot this load a bit flatter, but I doubt the difference in trajectory would be significant.

I now use only the Lyman #457122 hollow point 330 grain loaded to about 1500 fps. I don't believe I've tried this load at 200, but don't think it would be much flatter than the heavier bullet load.

[hockeynick39]

I load a 400 gr FNPB at about 1600 fps from my Winchester 1886 and can consistently hit man sized targets out to 300 yds. That's the furthest I have shot and that is using the original graduated ladder sight. Good luck and stay safe!

[1bluehorse]

No one is going to bring up the Adobe Walls long shot? tsk tsk


That shot was taken with a "borrowed" at the moment 50-90 Sharps. Billy Dixon had a 45-90 and didn't think it would reach. He never stated that it was anything other than a "lucky" shot. However he is known for his shooting skills at other than that event.

[RED BEAR]

It may be but i can't imagine a 500 grain slug going 2 1/3 miles what did they do aim at the moon. I can't imagine the drop for that slug at that velocity. I have to say that i think mr dixon is right it was indeed a lucky shot.

[Wayne Smith]

If you read the Army report they had the angle figured for maximum range, in fact if the angle was increased the range decreased. At that point they build the oak "target", which was also at an angle. They were firing a varitey of rounds, including the British 450 Martini round. It is an interesting read. There is a link to it somewhere on the board.

[Bigslug]

It's a fun exercise. . .

The long range properties of the .45-70 are well documented.

The long range capabilities of a Marlin 1895, however, are not. They're plenty accurate, but considering that the gun is built for <200 yard point blank shots on deer-sized critters, the iron sights are going to run out of "up" well before you start having discussions of reaching to the round's target range potential. The scopes that one would typically attach to those eastern woods guns are not going to have massive amounts of elevation. I don't know for a fact that nobody is making a slanted "long range" scope base for the '95; seems like a bit of a niche market item. That, combined with a large target scope and graduated reticle would help you extend things greatly, as would a tang-mounted "Quigley" sight, but that would put you well outside what most would consider the missions a '95 was made for.

Sooooo. . .I'd define your effective range by either whatever you can point-blank your round to on the size of target you intend to hit (zerored so the arc of the bullet stays within the top and bottom edges of the target without holding over or under) or where your scope runs out of adjustment.

I'm calling your bullet's B.C. as .266, pulling the figure from one of NOE's 350 grain molds and fiddling with Hornady's online calculator.

If you're going with a military point blank (anywhere on the torso/head is good enough), you've got about 36" of vertical space to work with. Zeroing at 325 yards will put you about 18" high at 175 yards and 18" low somewhere between 375 and 400 yards. Holding on the top of the head keeps you on target (crotch level) to about 425 yards.

If on the other hand, you're killing deer, your vertical space drops to about 8", and there your load is probably good for 4" up or down to about 220 yards with about a 180 yard zero. Without holding completely off the deer, you've got maybe 250 yards to work with before things get "freakaaaay".

[KenH]

That shot was taken with a "borrowed" at the moment 50-90 Sharps. Billy Dixon had a 45-90 and didn't think it would reach. He never stated that it was anything other than a "lucky" shot. However he is known for his shooting skills at other than that event.
Yep, and wasn't it around 1600 yds?

[1bluehorse]

Yep, and wasn't it around 1600 yds?



I believe it was measured by a survey crew shortly after at 1538 yds. It's also stated that with a 14mph wind blowing Mr. Dixon would have had to aim approx. 30 feet towards the direction the wind was blowing from and 37ft (I believe that's what I read) higher than his target. I also read it was his third attempt when he struck "paydirt". Which doesn't matter one way or the other, it was one he!! of a shot even if were a "scratch" shot.

[edp2k]

A fantastic read :)
The 45-70 at two miles, the Sandy Hook tests of 1879.
https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri54partial.pdf

[Larry Gibson]

"My 45-70 round are in the 350 range going right around 2000 fps... I am thinking I should be able to reach out a little longer..."

Guestimate you'll need 40 - 50 moa sight adjustment to go from a 100 yard zero to a 600 yards zero. Also a lot depends on what you mean by "effective".....

[wv109323]

For effective range of a 45-70 ask a buffalo.

[cwtebay]

A fantastic read :)
The 45-70 at two miles, the Sandy Hook tests of 1879.
https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri54partial.pdfQuite excellent! Thank you

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[44Blam]

Excellent article edp2k!

RANGE REPORT:
Went out to the range where the long range target is 870. I was able to hit a 1' plate at 400 yards pretty consistently and I hit a chicken at 400 yards that was probably the size of an actual chicken (after a few tries). But I had to hold at the base of the sight at that range. So, I have accuracy easily to 400 yards.

After that I need a vernier sight, I think. I was pretty stoked to spank a 2' target at 300 yards and then went a little further and I am quite happy. I told a guy there and he said that there was a group of old guys that take their 45-70 all the way up the hill with irons... (870 yards...) I told him that I thought that was amazing. I mean, I can hit the target with my .308, but with a 45-70?!?

I am quite happy with 400 yards. My buddies were still getting stuff out and setting up, etc. I walked up with my Marlin, popped one in the chamber and (PANK!) got a cowboy slihouette at 100 yards.That always makes me smile.

[Bigslug]

Excellent article edp2k!
I told a guy there and he said that there was a group of old guys that take their 45-70 all the way up the hill with irons... (870 yards...) I told him that I thought that was amazing. I mean, I can hit the target with my .308, but with a 45-70?!?


Well, just because your trajectory curves like the edge of a 6-inch teacup saucer doesn't mean it's not a REALLY STABLE trajectory. Mortars can be very accurate if you have the sights to aim them. The Sharps guys do; the '95 Marlin guys don't. Think Silverado vs. Camaro - both might be powered by the same motor, but VERY different machines.

Ya done good!

[StrawHat]

I believe it was measured by a survey crew shortly after at 1538 yds. It's also stated that with a 14mph wind blowing Mr. Dixon would have had to aim approx. 30 feet towards the direction the wind was blowing from and 37ft (I believe that's what I read) higher than his target. I also read it was his third attempt when he struck "paydirt". Which doesn't matter one way or the other, it was one he!! of a shot even if were a "scratch" shot.

Some reports had it as a ricochet that accomplished the hit.

Kevin

[Larry Gibson]

Having read what Billy Dixon had to say he was aiming at a large group of mounted Indians, not one indian in particular.

[wch]

I once watched an old fella with a 45-70 shoot a deer dead in its tracks at a measured range of 630 yards.

[RED BEAR]

After reading the army report i see they look to be trying to determine the max range of bullet as most shots missed the target. If you can call something 22 feet by 44 feet a target. Now some snipers in Afghanistan have made some incredible shots. Its hard for me to believe that these large slow bullets can be accurate at the ranges some of the old tales claim. I have a brother who argues with me saying his 45/70 sharps is accurate to a mile all i can say is in your dreams.

[M-Tecs]

For actual accuracy they can be very accurate at long range. On calm days it never ceases to amaze me what I can do at a 1,000 yards with my BPCR rifles either with tang sights or scoped. Practical accuracy is more problematic. Due to the long time of flight wind is a challenge. On a known distance range the common answer that the drop is not an issue is only partly correct. The slower the bullet the greater effect that shot to shot velocity variation has on elevation. On unknown distance even a few yards misestimation will cause a high or low miss depending on target size.

As a kid I reloaded for a 7th Calvary re-enactment group. Other kids had 22's and while I had a 22 I shot many thousands of round through Trapdoor Springfield's at extended range. Once you had the range down and figured out the windage it was easy to keep laying the shoots into what most people would think was an impossible group. The Buffington sights were designed for this type of shooting. First shot might miss by 50 feet or more but you could adjust and walk them in. If you missed a wind change you also missed big.

[sw282]

So a 45-70 is considered a 1000yd gun with a standard 405gr @ 1400fps. On the other hand my Winchester Model 70 in 458 Win Mag is barely adequate past 100yds with a 500gr boolit @ 2050 fps. Interesting. Very lnteresting

[M-Tecs]

Yep
Interesting. Very interesting

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/bpcr/

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_stcast_040306/99279

http://longrangebpcr.com/Rifles.htm

http://longrangebpcr.com/Scoring.htm

http://distantthunderbpcr.com/DTPages/DTMatches.htm

http://theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=5084.0

[Chihuahua Floyd]

If memory serves, the 45-70 was designed to be effective on Calvary, i.e. kill a horse at 600 yards. I know it works well past that.
CF

[DonH]

So a 45-70 is considered a 1000yd gun with a standard 405gr @ 1400fps. On the other hand my Winchester Model 70 in 458 Win Mag is barely adequate past 100yds with a 500gr boolit @ 2050 fps. Interesting. Very lnteresting
First, I doubt many serious thousand-yard .45-70 shooters are shooting 405 GR bullets. More like 500gr or 530gr. And in BPCR, yes, they are shooting at black powder velocity.
SE one, accuracy has little to do with accuracy onc adequate velocity is reached for bullet stability.
Third, apples and oranges. A BP .45-70 can shoot through a buffalo. In the workplace of the .458 Win a ONE-SHOT STOP is needed on game that can weigh tons, or that can eat you. In that realm the .458 is considered entry-level by many.

[44Blam]

First, I doubt many serious thousand-yard .45-70 shooters are shooting 405 GR bullets. More like 500gr or 530gr. And in BPCR, yes, they are shooting at black powder velocity.
SE one, accuracy has little to do with accuracy onc adequate velocity is reached for bullet stability.
Third, apples and oranges. A BP .45-70 can shoot through a buffalo. In the workplace of the .458 Win a ONE-SHOT STOP is needed on game that can weigh tons, or that can eat you. In that realm the .458 is considered entry-level by many.
You telling me that this won't drop pretty much anything that walks the planet with one well placed shot?
242223

[StrawHat]

You telling me that this won't drop pretty much anything that walks the planet with one well placed shot?
242223

Need more information. But since a 22 can kill anything “ ...with one well placed shot... “, sure but why go undergunned?

Kevin

[oldblinddog]

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/5/4/1872-creedmoor-and-the-first-annual-matches/
http://www.nramuseum.org/guns/the-galleries/innovation,-oddities-and-competition/case-24-creedmore,-sea-girt-and-exhibtion-shooters/sharps-model-1874-creedmoor-rifle-no-3-rifle.aspx

[country gent]

To get an idea of what is taking place on a good day set up a spotting scope and have a friend shoot the rifle spot for him and watch the trajectory at the longer ranges. On a good day you will see the bullets disturbance as it goes down range. Seeing that rainbow trajectory is informative to say the least. At black powder velocities and heavy bullets ( 500-550 grns) 10 mins per 100yds isn't far off. But even at 500 yds a 550 grn bullet that started out at 1200 fps still packs a wallop.
For what you want to do here I would recommend you chronograph your load at muzzle and 200yds. ( a lab radar makes this easy) with these 2 numbers you can figure your bullets actual B.C. and then a drop chart out as far as you need. This will get you very close to on target from the start. Another help is to build a tall target with the aiming point at the bottom and figure how high the bullets trajectory is at the given range you are shooting sight in so impact is that high above the aiming point. From there its fine tuning.

The problem I see you running into is enough travel to hold on the target with the hunting style sights. Most long range Vernier's have staffs 4" tall or taller to get enough travel.
These old rifles are very accurate at long ranges but the shooter needs to read ranges very close (At extended ranges 20 yds of can mean a miss) and know the actual loads trajectory very well. This can be done with some practice and work before hand

[Traffer]

This should give you some idea: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs3sYk1tuP5Er95EniC-uMw/search?query=45%2F70

[M-Tecs]

The OP hasn't defined what his term "effective range" means. The effective range for shooting gophers with iron sights is different verse shooting deer verse shooting targets verse thumping rocks at great distances. This hunting you need to hit your target on the first shot. With thumping rocks walking your shots in is normal. Once you have the wind and elevation aiming point you can get repeated hits easily. Is that effective range?

[Traffer]

The OP hasn't defined what his term "effective range" means. The effective range for shooting gophers with iron sights is different verse shooting deer verse shooting targets verse thumping rocks at great distances. This hunting you need to hit your target on the first shot. With thumping rocks walking your shots in is normal. Once you have the wind and elevation aiming point you can get repeated hits easily. Is that effective range?

By your comment, "effective range" varies greatly from one person to the next. Even far more so than the caliber or type of gun. For most people with a 45/70 lever with iron sights the effective range is somewhere between 50 and 75 yards. If you have gotten a deer with a longer shot. I would say that you are "above average". My post says "give you some idea" of what that caliber can do. Indeed it should.

[44Blam]

By your comment, "effective range" varies greatly from one person to the next. Even far more so than the caliber or type of gun. For most people with a 45/70 lever with iron sights the effective range is somewhere between 50 and 75 yards. If you have gotten a deer with a longer shot. I would say that you are "above average". My post says "give you some idea" of what that caliber can do. Indeed it should.

By effective range, I really meant what would be good for my setup. It is a Marlin 1895 with the factory front sight and Skinner peep sight. I learned a few things while at the range and from this thread.
From my range experience, actually shooting I could hit 2' target at 300 yards pretty consistently. I could smack that cowboy silhouette (which was probably about 2' tall) every time at 100 yards. And I was able to "walk in" some shots at a 1' target at 400 yards. At 400 yards, I was holding the bottom of my sight on the target. I didn't shoot at anything further. BUT I also talked to a range officer there and he said there was a group of guys that come in with their 45-70s shooting black powder out to the 870 yard target... So, about the time I was thinking "effective range: 400 yards", a guy came by saying 870 should be no problem.

From reading the stuff on this thread, I figured I should buy a flip up vernier sight - so I did. :) Should be getting it in a couple days and I think the next weekend rec shooting day is June 1 and the next one is June 16. So one of those days, I'll go and see if I can work up to that 870 target.

EDIT:
With the loads I was shooting, (at least for me) it is not pleasant to brace against a bench. So, the 400 was a mental challenge and I think going out to 870 is going to be a mix of patience and luck.

[RED BEAR]

I am by no means what you would call a good shot average at best. I do have a nephew that can shoot fleas of a tick. But i have a very hard time calling a 45/70 a 1000 yard gun. There is no doubt that the rare person can hit something smaller than a barn door but to be consistent at that range is another matter.

[GregLaROCHE]

With the trajectory of the .45-70, you just had to get the boolit halfway there and gravity does the rest. At the time the military was testing the round, warfare fought with guns was still relatively new. Shooting an individual soldier wasn’t always the goal. Volley Fire was still considered useful. With one hundred soldiers shooting repeatedly in the same direction, they figured they would eventually do damage to the enemy. Elevation for good distance calculations was more important than windage.

[KCSO]

Read Doug McChristians Army of Marksman for all the info on group sizes and range of the 45-70 up to the Sandy Hook trials in 1880's. With Buffington sights IIRR targets at 1000 yards were 3x4 foot black. A good shot was expected to keep his group in that area.

[Lead pot]

Many 1000 yard matches have been won using the .45-70. You don't need 2200 fps velocity to get the job done. A black powder load of1200 to 1300 using a 500-530 gr is more than sufficient to keep 10 shots on the black spot at the 1K line.
I pulled a target during a Creedmoor match for a shooter that kept 9 shots in the 2MOA 10 ring with ons shot just outside by 1/2" using a .40-65. And when all was done that group was under 2 MOA total is size.

Kurt

[GregLaROCHE]

Could a boolit traveling subsonic have an advantage over one that is supersonic and has to pass through the sound barrier to subsonic in long ranges ?

[Edward]

Could a boolit traveling subsonic have an advantage over one that is supersonic and has to pass through the sound barrier to subsonic in long ranges ?

YUP/Ed