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Harv33
10-22-2008, 09:20 PM
I just bought a 91 Argentine carbine, excellent condition. The bore slugs at .312
Ignore the guy pulling the trigger but what is the best accuracy I could expect from the rifle with cast bullets at 200 yards ?.. All ten ex'es of course [smilie=1: ?

Larry Gibson
10-22-2008, 09:34 PM
3-4 moa if your eyes are good with those sights and the short sight radius. Lee's C312-185 or the Lyman 314299 are the two bullets of choice for the 91 Argentines. I like to push either bullet at 1850-1900 fps with either 5744 or 4895 (w/dacron filler). However some may consider my experience as minimal with only 3 cut down M91s, an original M91 rifle and a M1909 DWM al of which are in 7.65 at my imediate disposal to play with. Did I mention I like that cartridge and those rilfes?

Larry Gibson

docone31
10-22-2008, 09:38 PM
If you can paper patch to .314, I bet you can really do some damage. I would float the barrel. On those free floating jobs, I have used a piece of inner tube under the front hold down screw.
I am an advocate of paper patching.
My Enfield gets a clover leaf at 100yds. With milsurp ammo, I get maybe 3" at 100. That is off a rest.
With castings sized to .314, I got 20' groups at 100yds.
With paper, I use the Lee starting load data.

Harv33
10-22-2008, 10:28 PM
Thanks for the info fella's.. I do have the LEE C-312-185 mold so that's a plus.
Larry do you use IMR4895 or Hodgdon ?. I read where Aliant 2400 was a good one also ??
I've never paper patched, in fact I'm just beginning the cast boolit venture with the Mosin Nagant and Arg 91. I'll read up on paper patching..
I'm not sure I could free float the barrel with that end cap locking the barrel down.
It looks like Hornady are the only ones that have .312 diam. jacketed bullets and I don't think any of those are boat tail or they are .3105. Strange that Sierra and others don't have more .312 available.
Well, it will be a long Winter so when I come out of the den maybe I'll know something.. Thanks again..

docone31
10-22-2008, 10:46 PM
Harv, welcome on board!
Using my Enfield as an example,
The milsurp ammo is .311, but cupro-nickle. Most bullets from the majors are copper at .311.
My Enfield, aka Smelly, short for SMLE, fires the milsurp ok. 3" groups. When I load at .311 using the majors bullets, I get 3' groups. Your 91 will like the .312. It will not matter that they are not boat tail. I got Hornady, 185gn/.312 spirepoint. My Smelly likes it.
Paper patching!
I can outshoot my .312 jacketeds with paper patches, with the same load! I size the Lee C312/185R to .308. Wrap twice with notebook paper to .317-.318 when dry. I then snip the tails and size to .314.
Dang dude! I bet this rifle never shot so well in its life. I use starting load data for 4895.
No gas checks, full power. Paper, imagine.
You can bed the full stock!
It, from what I have been told, takes 5lbs upward pressure on the muzzle. That amounts to a business card on top of the muzzle rest on the forestock.
My Smelly takes action bedding to the barrel flare, at the mid point attachment screw, and 7lbs upward pressure at the muzzle.
When I have fired some rounds through the barrel, my Smelly gets quite hot! The barrel, before bedding, became spaghetti with a mind of its own. first 20rds, dead on, after that, whatever.
If I remember correctly, your barrel has no contact from forward of the reciever, to the muzzle rest. The upper handguard attaches to the muzzle band, and does not touch the barrel.
You know, that '91 is sure a purty rifle. It has a style of its own. Once you dial it in, you gonna be real proud.

nicholst55
10-23-2008, 12:11 AM
docone31, I've pulled the bullets from some old milsurp .303 ammo and was shocked to discover that they miked .306"!! Not trusting my eyes, I miked them again; same results, with two different calipers! I forget the headstamp on this ammo, but it was British milsurp. That's one reason my old Lee Enfields won't group worth squat!

I've got an Argie-built 1909 Engineer carbine sitting in the safe waiting for me to ge around to it. I've had it for a few years but never got around to firing it. I'll have to remedy that once I return to the States.

Buckshot
10-23-2008, 01:47 AM
http://www.fototime.com/F19455D6631D6CC/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/0195FFDAF1904B1/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/99198524C8077E1/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/5D08BE0D4C30B88/standard.jpg

One of these little darlin's eh? Or maybe you have the cavalry version? I have one of the Argentine military canvas and leather carry bags, scabbards, holster, whateverintheheck they're called dealies for the carbine. They'er cute little dudes. I couldn't imagine firing it much with jacketed ammo loaded to European specs, but with cast they're a gas. With a Lyman 314299 at 1800 fps it backs off the boolit well. The serial numbers all match and it still has it's crest. However the finish is pretty much a thing of the past, and it has it's share of dents and dings, but no cracks or splits. Looks like it was carryed a BUNCH, and shot little. It's barrel is .314" x .301".

http://www.fototime.com/D1C0D4FE8A65D60/standard.jpg

I have 3 of these. This one came from Century in the early '90's. It has an oval brass disc on the butt that has "Robertson" stamped on it? Don't know what's up with that, but the brass disc hadn't been recently added. This one has a .310" groove and .300" bore. One of the others was a so called parade rifle, as all the metal had been chrome plated. It's barrel is toast, but i have another barrel if I live long enough to put it on. The 3rd one I got from a buddy of Scrounger's. It is all matching down to the cleaning rod, but the crest had been buffed off. It has a light colored walnut stock and a barrel like a mirror. It goes .312" x .301".

http://www.fototime.com/E024462DE300D0F/standard.jpg

And 2 of these [smilie=w: Me and Larry are having a competition, HA! Both were made in Argentina, but are very nice rifles. Both have .314" grooves but one has a .304" bore, and it was pure hell getting it to shoot. I finally lube sized a 323470 Lyman 8mm slug .323" and then squirted it up through a Lee .314" die. THEN it would shoot!

Since the 7.65x53 falls into the full size military cartridge catagory, you can use the generic cast boolit loads for such rounds. Since your GROOVE slugs at .312", you'll be able to use some 30 cal moulds in it. Many of the older Lyman 30 cal moulds would drop slugs on the largeish side. If you can glom onto one (or both) the 311466 and 311467 will deliver boolits between .312" and .314". Two other moulds come to mind, but happily both are current production. One is the Lyman 311410, which is a 130gr RNPB, so no GC req'd, and you'll need to keep it down around 1200 - 1400 fps.A good candidate for small charges of pistol powder, like 8.0grs of Unique. The other is the Lee C309-113F. This is a short squatty slug that is basically just drive bands and a stumpish FN. It might not feed real well from the magazine, but it commonly drops from the mould at close to .314" or a tad less. We call it "The Soup Can" for some unknown reason :veryconfu . I think there has been 3 group buys for it in the 6 cavity blocks. It's a good'un.

.......................Buckshot

looseprojectile
10-23-2008, 11:09 AM
had a brother in law by that name once, nice guy.
I have the 91 cavalry carbine and the 09 cavalry carbine, also a dang nice 91 sporter made from a rifle.
The 09 shoots eggs and clay targets with amazing regularity at eighty yards. This with the usually described as "crap" SF Arg. ammo. I got a 1400 round case of it some time ago at a fire sale price. Some of the best surp I have shot.
I now use the 311334 that I lapped out to fit the 09, which is .301 & .313.
Havent shot the 91 carbine and the sporter, though I expect them to shoot good,
as I have always had great results with with these finely made guns.
On a good day when the light is right and it is calm and no pressure, I can get around two inches five shots at a hundred with the crap milsurp :roll:. Is about the same with the boolits.
The moral to this story is, " if someone tells you that a certain milsurp ammo is no good, try it you might like it".

Life is good

Harv33
10-23-2008, 11:48 AM
Thanks for all the great advice and comments !!. More enthusiasm = More Smoke.
My 91 is the Engineer model I guess, the short, end capped little squirt. It's nice all over, no inport marks, all matching numbers except the stock and It looks like it has been lightly refinished. It will be awhile tho before I get to shoot it. I ordered brass and some original Arg. cartridges - thanks for the tip !.. I can get the powder and bullets here, and I'll cast up a few variations to narrow things
down. I guess anticipation and getting all the toys lined up is half the fun..:bigsmyl2:

Larry Gibson
10-23-2008, 12:29 PM
Thanks for the info fella's.. I do have the LEE C-312-185 mold so that's a plus.
Larry do you use IMR4895 or Hodgdon ?. I read where Aliant 2400 was a good one also ??
I've never paper patched, in fact I'm just beginning the cast boolit venture with the Mosin Nagant and Arg 91. I'll read up on paper patching..
I'm not sure I could free float the barrel with that end cap locking the barrel down.
It looks like Hornady are the only ones that have .312 diam. jacketed bullets and I don't think any of those are boat tail or they are .3105. Strange that Sierra and others don't have more .312 available.
Well, it will be a long Winter so when I come out of the den maybe I'll know something.. Thanks again..

Harv33

Actually I us H4895 and IMR 4895 and a whole lot of milsurp 4895. The IMR and milsurps are a tudge slower than H4895 and generally require 1/2 to sometimes 2 gr more of powder to burn consistently and achieve the same velocity as the other two. The cartridge and bullet weight effect things here. Given my choice when buying off the shelf I get H4895. Try between 27 and 29 gr with the 3/4 gr dacron filler under the C312-185 Lee bullet. Without the dacron filler an adition gr or two of powder may be required for optimum consistency. Velocity will be in the 1800 fps range. Also try 23-24 gr of 5744 with that same bullet w/o the dacron. I've not tried 2400 so can't help you out there.

I shoot the .310 AK/SKS 123-125 gr bullets with excellent accuracy. Also most any commercial .311 (Speer and Sierra) bullets also shoot well. A good inexpensive (that may be a misnomer these days) j bullet is the 180 gr Reminton .311 bullet. The most accurate bullets out of my M91s are the Sierra 180 gr .311, The MK 174 gr Sierra .311 and the 150 gr Hornady .312.

I regularly shoot CIP (European equivelent of SAAMI) MAP lads in my 7.65s. They are well made and hardened correctly. I Webster's authoratative book on Argentine Mausers he states the M91 was designed and made to be proofed at 4,000 atmospheres (The Mauser brothers didn't deal in psi back then). That equivicates to roughly 74,000 psi by modern piezo measurement. My recent tests of some "SF" milsurp and the Hornady ammo headstamped "nny" had MAPs of 52,000 to 54,000 psi(M43). That is consistant with the 55,000 psi MAP listed by CIP.

Out of my 24" barreled M91 my 150 gr Hornady hunting load runs 2800 fps and is within MAP. FYI; the Hornady factory ammo with the same bullet runs 2760 fps at 53,200 psi(M43) and my load runs 54,100 psi(M43). I drive the 123-125 Hornady, Sierra or Speer .310/.311 AK/SKS bullets right at 3000 fps within MAP. Those are out of my Leowe and DWM made M91s. Out of my M1909 DWM Argentine I have loaded this cartridge a lot hotter (just to see the potential) but that was with a M98 action. I don't do that with a M91 nor do I have any ammo loaded that the M91s won't take. Not saying that everyone should load them to CIP MAPs. Just saying I do without problems. They are fine rifles and the 7.65 is a very good cartridge.

Larry Gibson