Not Again! More Property Damage!

[Thundarstick]

Deep breath, got to rant a little.

I started a thread

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?379612-Recourse-Against-Ditch-Jumpers!

Well, it's already happened again! This time a car left the road about 50 yards from my property, hit the culvert, destroyed the front undercarriage of her car, then as it was swapping ends, took out EVERYTHING along the front of my property! Shrubs, mail box, large crepe myrtles, and a 25 year old oak tree over a distance of another 30 yards or so. Told the trooper she was only going about 45mph! I'm going to do something, just don't know what! How expensive is it to have a 30 foot tall oak tree replaced?

[Wayne Smith]

I think it's time to talk to the city/town government about some kind of legal barrier. Tell them they really don't want to wait until somebody kills themselves on that corner.

[toallmy]

Talk to her insurance company about the property damage ......

[dangitgriff]

Talk to her insurance company about the property damage ......

Exactly. Call them every day until their check arrives.
Every. Dang. Day.

[bedbugbilly]

Wayne says it all . . . you are suffering constant PD due to a municipal road that is either not "engineered" correctly in terms of a curve or other layout - and it may well be an original road from early times that just remained the same . . . but . . . the municipality needs to address the issue in some manner - ie. straighten out the curve, put barriers in place such as guard rails, etc. to prevent damage to surrounding property when a vehicle leaves "their" road. I can guarantee you that if it was your house that was being hit repeatedly, things would be different. Sometimes it's hard to fight city hall if you're the "little guy" but perhaps a well worded letter from an attorney to the municipality would push them to get off their chairs and get the DOT to do something about it.

Sorry to hear it happened again . . . I take it the woman was not hurt so that is a good thing - but her insurance should certainly pay for full replacement and repairs.

[bikerbeans]

Ask the PD to pull her cell phone records. More than likely she was talking on her phone.

BB

[jsizemore]

Sand trap from the right of way. Berm the back side so it doubles as a berm for shooting practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVRuwnClU8c

[RED BEAR]

Replacing an oak tree that size is not going to be cheap. I will agree that her insurance is libel but be prepared to have to go to court. And if it exceeds the limits of her insurance coverage you may have to go after her for the rest.

[472x1B/A]

Pictures DON'T lie! Just as I said in your last thread. Take as many pictures as it takes to convince a lawyer that you are NOT making this up. Can't see how an insurance company can weasel out on a claim if there is 30-50, or more pictures for proof.

I work at a grain elevator here in Illinois. We have over 300 pictures of EVERY pipe, bin, conveyor, auger, etc. for insurance purposes.

[lefty o]

definately go after her insurance. tree's are worth big bucks, as they are part of your property value. id be talking with the city/county who ever is responsible for the road about putting up a barrier.

[RED BEAR]

The insurance company may know they are libel but may still stall. Thinking most people will complain but few will sue. Had a couple refuse to settle when they were clearly libel. Settled outside courtroom waiting for case to be called. But if i had not shown that i was actually willing to see a court case through wouldn't have gotten a dime.

[JimB..]

Lots of pictures for sure.

Talk to the agent for your property insurance company. They may pay the claim and remediate with the drivers insurance. IMHO people spend way too much time and energy fighting a company that doesn’t represent them, better to let your insurance handle it.

Be careful with the city or county, their solution to the problem may well include taking 40+ feet of your property.

[Thundarstick]

It's a state road, in the county, no city involved at all. I will for sure be contacting the state DOT about this issue again! I'm also contacting my local state representative and see if he bring any pressure. If this fails I may have to do some heavy duty property decoration.

[Conditor22]

IF her insurance company tries to stall you, have YOUR insurance company get involved. They might have to cover the damage if her insurance doesn't

[Goatwhiskers]

Here's an idea. There is a "T" intersection in a town near me with a house directly across the main drag from the leg of the "T". Across the front yard from one corner to the other is ten 8" steel pipes set 4' in concrete with ship anchor chain looped from pipe to pipe. NO ONE has ever hit the house. Might be worth a try. GW

[Wag]

Make sure they value the tree properly. If it's valued for lumber production, it's worth a lot more. A LOT more.

--Wag--

[Minerat]

Trees that size are not easily moved or replaced you may have to settle for loss of use value, be sure you claim its protection value too. If you can get the press involved the better pressure you will have. Call the head of your states DOT and their Division Engineer's office for your area too. Squeaky wheel gets grease! Good luck!

[JimB..]

It's a state road, in the county, no city involved at all. I will for sure be contacting the state DOT about this issue again! I'm also contacting my local state representative and see if he bring any pressure. If this fails I may have to do some heavy duty property decoration.

Sorry, my post was incomplete. State DOT may also just expand their easement and take your property. Sure you can fight about it, but hard to argue that it’s a problem and then that you don’t want them to fix it.

I’d just deal with insurance.

[toallmy]

The sand trap sounds like a good idea for future problems .

[bpatterson84]

This is an insurance claim for sure.

[Idaho45guy]

Ask the PD to pull her cell phone records. More than likely she was talking on her phone.

BB

Why would that matter? She's at fault no matter what and her Property Damage Liability coverage will cover the OP's damage to his landscaping.

Asking the PD to pull her phone records is a waste of time for the OP and the PD.

[NWPilgrim]

Hire a lawyer that plans a strategy to efficiently deal with this insurance claim and all future claims. From your previous thread you seemed against putting in any protective barrier such as Jersey wall or sand trap, and it is unlikely the State will do anything unless you sue them. So you are likely to incur repeated ditch jumping.

It seems pointless to put in replacement trees unless you are successful in getting insurance payments that cover costs. And if you have to abandon use of that section due to repeated vehicle incursions then I think during the State for loss of use would be in order and they may just pay for the land or put in a guardrail.

None of those are my favored solution but you didn’t like to hear about protective barriers so that limits you to dealing with repeated damages.

[Idaho45guy]

The state needs to install a guardrail around the apex of that turn, or some Jersey barriers.

241609

But you should be going on Amazon immediately and buying a wi-fi camera for $30 and setting it up to capture where people are running off the road and into your yard. It will record the license plate numbers and you can at least hold those accountable that are damaging your yard and fleeing the scene.

Plus, it would be compelling evidence to present to the state when asking that they install barriers there.

[Petrol & Powder]

To the OP: for the current event you know who the responsible party is. Contact the driver AND the driver's insurance company and make a claim. Follow up in writing and be professional and polite about it. There's no need to threaten a law suit or get angry. After you make that claim in writing, wait for their response. If it's adequate; great, you're done. If it is not satisfactory then you can put them on notice that you will seek a civil remedy.

I'll bet you the insurance company would rather pay the claim than litigate it. It's cheaper for them to pay and they know they will not win in the end with the facts of this case. I promise you they would rather pay you and be done with it.

In the meantime, my advice is to move forward with your life and don't get fixated on the traffic issue. Little things can take over your life if you let them. The government entity that's responsible for that road issue is more likely to work with you to resolve that problem if the person you deal with sees you as a calm citizen seeking a resolution.

Good Luck, stay grounded, be polite.

[Petrol & Powder]

Why would that matter? She's at fault no matter what and her Property Damage Liability coverage will cover the OP's damage to his landscaping.

Asking the PD to pull her phone records is a waste of time for the OP and the PD.


/\ Agreed.

[jimlj]

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-473-W.pdf

I think this is the formula I used when dealing with the insurance company of a kid who knocked down a tree in my yard while driving under the influence of drugs. The insurance company initially sent me a check for about $500. After I contacted them and told them it wasn't even close, they sent me a check for another $200. I sent them a copy of this and they sent another couple hundred dollars. I finally sent an email to the insurance adjustor and did the math as outlined in the formula for them as it seems they were incapable of doing it. I told them to quit trying to stiff me. That seemed to offend the guy and he said he would send the information to his manager. A couple weeks later I got another check for $3000. Don't settle for the first thing they send you unless it is an honest amount.

[popper]

Worked with a guy that had his house hit 3 times, laser some drunk teacher Parker her car on top of his vette. He finally moved. DFW area. City did nothing.

[dangitgriff]

It's a state road, in the county, no city involved at all. I will for sure be contacting the state DOT about this issue again! I'm also contacting my local state representative and see if he bring any pressure. If this fails I may have to do some heavy duty property decoration.


Here's an idea. There is a "T" intersection in a town near me with a house directly across the main drag from the leg of the "T". Across the front yard from one corner to the other is ten 8" steel pipes set 4' in concrete with ship anchor chain looped from pipe to pipe. NO ONE has ever hit the house. Might be worth a try. GW

If a homeowner places a barrier on their property that carries the possibility of causing death to a motorist if struck, they could find themselves in court defending against culpability charges by the state.
America is, after all, the most litigious society on the planet.
I took a screenshot of the following post from a social media site:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190513/7101b7e2414a3513d57277a31835ad6d.jpg
Bottom line, consult an attorney before you erect anything.
R/Griff

[turtlezx]

city or town wont do anything about the road until they hit the certaint # of deaths at that location ( in new york)

[tommag]

A couple of things come to mind. First, solid barriers may well have you on the wrong end of a lawsuit.
If you could handle the expense, round pea gravel doesn't compact and stops a vehicle pretty rapidly where sand settles eventually.
Insurance companies frequently put you off when you try to sue by yourself, figuring they'll wear you down/exhaust your funds. If you file with your insurance carrier, they will subrogate, and be taken more seriously than you will.

[lightman]

After reading the other thread and then this one, I'm wondering if moving might be an option. Yeah, it would grate on me to give in but sometimes you have to step back and look at the big picture. Is this worth a lawsuit? Is this worth your personal stress and frustration? Are you in love with this property and house or can you see being happy in another place? Just thinking outside of the box.

[crowbuster]

Rocks. big big rocks. Get a couple estimates from nurseries on the tree n shrubs, tell em why and not to be shy. I got a big chunk when a drunk hit a rental house and a big maple tree. the blue spruce was high 4 figures.

[skeettx]

Any further update on what her insurance company says?

Take LOTS of pictures!!

[Thundarstick]

I'm looking into decorative barriers of some sort, I wish big rocks didn't have to be hauled in, there are NO boulders any where near here! I'm leaning towards making large planters from RR cross ties, and filling with dirt. They wouldn't look out of place here in the country. I keep hearing about home owners being sued, but can't find a case of a successful suit against a home owner. Post with cable between is also being looked into.

[john.k]

I had something similar........a truck changed lanes on a car outside ,car swerves to avoid the truck,hit the kerb .flipped ,and went thru my front fence on its roof..........the car driver ,has a quick look around,the old guy nextdoor cleans him up,then he hits the toe...gone........the truck is working for a big landscape yard,driver says the yard will fix my fence......Cops come,truckie tells all..(very stupid ,that)....female cop looks at fence,says my whole property is a ***...fence ,house ,the lot.,therefore crash is under threshhold value for an investigation.......Upshot is ....truck driver fired ,and charged ,loses licence.......car is abandoned as its junk.........fence is busted ........garden centre say its nothing to do with them ,despite promising to fix fence..........eventually ,old guy next door fixes fence ,because its right beside his house.He wouldnt take any money.......and I ended up with selling the wreck for scrap for $200.....Cops told me to keep it,as its on my land,its my problem,cops wont pay for removal.

[jonp]

If a homeowner places a barrier on their property that carries the possibility of causing death to a motorist if struck, they could find themselves in court defending against culpability charges by the state.
America is, after all, the most litigious society on the planet.
I took a screenshot of the following post from a social media site:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190513/7101b7e2414a3513d57277a31835ad6d.jpg
Bottom line, consult an attorney before you erect anything.
R/Griff

I don't take advice from the internet. The guy that wrote that post is the same one who warns everyone not to use reloads for self defense based on nothing.

If you erect a fence, wrought iron fence or brick wall on your property you have nothing to fear just make sure it is not in the highway ROW and follows set back rules.

[dangitgriff]

If you put a barrier up on your property where auto crashes have already occurred, and someone gets killed hitting it, the state I live in, which is Florida, reserves the option to charge you with involuntary manslaughter. And they have done that, because they see it as no different than setting up a lethal trap, or potentially lethal trap, on your property.
I’m sure this varies by state. It may not be a liability in yours, but in Florida—it certainly is!
R/Griff

[jonp]

If you put a barrier up on your property where auto crashes have already occurred, and someone gets killed hitting it, the state I live in, which is Florida, reserves the option to charge you with involuntary manslaughter. And they have done that, because they see it as no different than setting up a lethal trap, or potentially lethal trap, on your property.
I’m sure this varies by state. It may not be a liability in yours, but in Florida—it certainly is!
R/Griff

Cite a case if you would. I'd like to read it or read it in the law

[john.k]

Its more a matter of doing what a court considers to be reasonable........and in all these matters ,its very important that you dont go around saying that the next idiot crashes into your barrier will be.......whatever......You must not set mantraps,but you may build a wall.or an earth bank........i built a substantial earth bank,not for cars,but to protect my land from water runoff from the roadway,which was massive,sometimes knee deep .I do know of one place on a fairly gentle curve that has had numerous crashes,and a while back ,three teens in two cars were killed crashing into the property,up against the concrete wall of a sunken driveway.

[shaune509]

If a wall, boulders, heavy steel fence on your side of right of way is a liability, what is a guard rail, jersey wall, sound wall or power pole installed by road dept or utility. How about the spike topped iron fences you see in NYC along the side walk, some one could slip on ice and impale themselves our society has gone to far from taking responsibility for ones own actions. As for the OPs problem IMHO he needs to look at putting heavy pressure on the road dept to correct "there design fault"
Shaune509

[dangitgriff]

Shaune509, the answer is immunity and award fee caps. Ever wonder how so many people sue the government, yet the government never goes out of business?
That’s why.

[RP]

I know its a pain in the butt and very upsetting but I let the insurance company replace bushes and trees before I look out my front door and see someone crying beside the road over a lost love one or asking me if its ok to leave flowers or a cross in the yard. Placing something like a big rock or barrier that may cause that person or persons death may be more worth in the end.

[Thundarstick]

I know its a pain in the butt and very upsetting but I let the insurance company replace bushes and trees before I look out my front door and see someone crying beside the road over a lost love one or asking me if its ok to leave flowers or a cross in the yard. Placing something like a big rock or barrier that may cause that person or persons death may be more worth in the end.

Or do NOTHING, and one day it's my wife getting the mail, or one of my grandchildren taken out with the bushes! I have yet to turn up a single case of a homeowner being successfully sued by an automobile crash victim because they left the roadway and crashed into an obstacle off the roads right of way. Tennessee had no set back from the highway right of way, but I will probably give another 2 to 3 feet from the line. I haven't decided what to do opposite my home, but I'm planning building planters that will also act as a diverter.

[Blammer]

call your lawyer and ask him, get the scoop on your local laws and rules.

Arm chair warriors and arm chair lawyers are not who you want to take advice from on topics like this.


Just preface all of the advice you get on the internet with "I slept at a Holiday Inn last night..."

[dangitgriff]

Hey Blammer—
I said the same thing. Check your local laws.
Glad we agree!

[Blammer]

:D

well at least two armchair lawyers agree. :)

[john.k]

if lawyers agreed ,they wouldnt make any money,cause there would be no courtcases.

[JimB..]

Two folks have had accidents in about the same place within 90 days. Then you install planters to protect your property. Couple months later a car hits a planter and someone is seriously injured. If you don’t think you’ll get sued you’re out of your mind. If you think any loss or settlement will be covered by your insurance, you’re out of your mind. What you’re doing is taking someone else’s insured liability and making it your uninsured liability. Sure you’ll have save a few bushes and a tree, but you might lose the house and the retirement fund, and you’ll know that while you protected your wife from some potential risk while getting the mail, your actions directly injured or killed someone. When this all happens you will not view the outcome as a win.

The point of ranting is to get the dumb emotional **** out of your head and then move forward in a thoughtful and productive manner. I hope that the thread has been useful in that regard.

[Thundarstick]

If I hadn't gotten the dumb emotional **** out of my head, I'd be sinking 8 inch x 6 foot steel pipes 3 feet deep, 5 feet apart, and filling them with concrete! I'm looking at protecting the most vulnerable high risk areas!

The fella I bought the place from stopped by yesterday. His comment, "I see your luck is about the same as mine was, we had one almost come through the front door one night." Luck has nothing to do with it! It's distracted driving, drinking/ drugging and driving, and speeding. The road is perfectly safe if you drive the speed limit and pay a minimum of attention, btw the speed limit is 40mph. If your bringing a law suit you had better be able to prove you sober and at or under the speed limit!

[JimB..]

If I hadn't gotten the dumb emotional **** out of my head, I'd be sinking 8 inch x 6 foot steel pipes 3 feet deep, 5 feet apart, and filling them with concrete! I'm looking at protecting the most vulnerable high risk areas!

The fella I bought the place from stopped by yesterday. His comment, "I see your luck is about the same as mine was, we had one almost come through the front door one night." Luck has nothing to do with it! It's distracted driving, drinking/ drugging and driving, and speeding. The road is perfectly safe if you drive the speed limit and pay a minimum of attention, btw the speed limit is 40mph. If your bringing a law suit you had better be able to prove you sober and at or under the speed limit!

LOL. Yeah I’m not sure that someone driving over the speed limit while intoxicated and texting their drinking buddy could win a civil judgement, but they or their family could make you **** miserable and there are plenty of lawyers that would take the case and plenty of judges that would let it play out over months or years.

Without a drawing or pictures it’s hard to suggest solutions, but reflectors on sticks are cheap and quick. Maybe get their attention before they get into trouble. Put them 10’ off the road and slowly taper them towards the road as they approach your property, might subliminally keep them steering towards center.

[1911sw45]

Sure funny you see business sink 6" heavy wall pipe with concrete to stop any vehicles from going thru the doors or other parts of the business. Matter of fact our Napa auto parts store had it happen to them last year. Building sets between two one ways streets. The road coming to the building is two way traffic then spilts to the right around the building to begin one way. The left is the other one way then in to the two way traffic. They had a person supposedly pass out ran right into the from of the building with half of the vehicle through the wall brick wall. Any way the next week they installed 6" heavy wall pipe filled full of concrete every 4' all the way across the from of the building.

[calm seas]

Had a house in the area I grew up in, set in a hard 90 degree corner (20 mph). After two cars ended up in their living room, they put up a hellastout rock wall. no more cars in the living room. This was in the 70's, in Colorado. YMMV

[Idaho45guy]

Sure funny you see business sink 6" heavy wall pipe with concrete to stop any vehicles from going thru the doors or other parts of the business. Matter of fact our Napa auto parts store had it happen to them last year. Building sets between two one ways streets. The road coming to the building is two way traffic then spilts to the right around the building to begin one way. The left is the other one way then in to the two way traffic. They had a person supposedly pass out ran right into the from of the building with half of the vehicle through the wall brick wall. Any way the next week they installed 6" heavy wall pipe filled full of concrete every 4' all the way across the from of the building.

Funny how the people that think protecting your property and life from idiot drivers is somehow legally wrong for a private citizen when businesses do it all the time on their property.

[MrWolf]

Maybe see if one of those solar powered signs can be put up notifying of the danger? Like others said I would speak to an attorney. It is a shame we have to think that way instead of just putting up a permanent barrier. Good luck.

[JimB..]

Funny how the people that think protecting your property and life from idiot drivers is somehow legally wrong for a private citizen when businesses do it all the time on their property.

Not worth arguing about, but if you think about the risk to a driver hitting a concrete filled pipe vs hitting a brick building, the difference seems small. Compare that to hitting a concrete filled pipe vs skidding across some lawn and hitting bushes and small trees. In the first you don’t significantly increase risk to anyone and significantly reduce potential damage. In the second you significantly increase risk to the driver and don’t significantly reduce the potential damage (the value of the items is small, there is no lost business income, etc).

I’d say that putting poles up to protect your house is probably fine, but putting them up to protect bushes and a mailbox probably creates litigation risk that outweighs the benefits.

BTW, I’m not expressing an opinion as to this being right or wrong, its just the way that it is. Personally I like the argument that they were trespassing and so it’s all their fault even if you install barriers and mines on your property and outside the right-of-way, but nobody asks me.

[James Wisner]

I drove thru town a differrent way today while doing errands and saw something interesting.

A couple of months ago the city was resurverying this corner on a street.
A 45 degree left turn, at 20 mph

A Church is right at that corner and yes several times a year a car will go thru and over the sidewalk into the parking lot of the Church, straight toward the building used for the child care.

What did I see today was a single height, row of old heavy equipment tires all laid out along the sidewalk on the Churches property with flower pots growing in all the tires. Since they are single height if a car would hit the tire it would cause damage to car no doubt but would also move the tire as well.

Interesting way to recycle the tires and they even had started to paint the tires nice colors to match the flowers.

I know how this city works and you have to get a permit to repaint your house, so the tire flower pots was interesting.

Had to take a double look at the new flower pots.

JW

[Smoke4320]

30 to 40 ft of sandtrap then bushes and or Trees

[snowwolfe]

How do you place a value on a big live oak tree? Around here I cant even give away oak trees that get blown down by storms. I have 8 right now about 24 inches in diameter that are easy to get to from the road and no one is interested.
Why do you think oak trees are so valuable?

[Ramson222]

I drive by a farm every few weeks that has had a lot of drivers run off the road on and into the Filbert trees. Usually the result is 2 to 3 full grown trees being destroyed. They bought a old cop car from auction and placed it about 100yrds from the problem. Everyone going by slows down to bellow the speed limit as they pass.

[Handloader109]

Nearby town has a home we looked at purchased a few yrs back. But had a three turkey houses across the street. Directly across from where the Turkey farm's drive met the main road was a group of 6 inch x10 ft tall yellow steel pipes. A barrier to keep the stupid truck drivers from driving into the home. Would be slow speed hit, but they were there. And I expect paid for by the farm owners

Why not a low cable say 12 to 18 inches off the ground? Lowest wire on the fence. Similar to the cable used by the highway deptsfor median fencing. Good steel posts at each end deep in concrete, and a decorative fence between.may take a couple of strands. But I do like a few tons of pea gravel in a rock garden......

[john.k]

I d be havin a tin fence to max height ,6'6" tall here,with the wire rope behind it....tin fence so no one can see in......the idea of the wire rope ,is if its hit ,the pull ends up on all the posts ,not just one,so they dont need to be all that big to stop a car.........If you look around ,most places you can get used wire rope scrap price ,or less....cause its not popular with the scrapyards.I would have three strands of wire rope,same levels as plain wire horse fence........gravel is nice,but is kinda dear here.....like $1000 for a 10 ton load.

[john.k]

Round here ,there was a lot of idiots with giant bullbars on 4x4 trucks purposely mowing signs down........council started putting signs in pipe holders sunk in the ground ,so they were easy to replace.......anyway ,one guy put a couple of bits of 2" cutoff truck axle shaft in the holes........couple of 4x4s sitting high and dry on these poles,as they went under the bullbars,and snagged the engines or transfer cases......Stopped the idiots in a couple of weeks.....never one since.

[Wag]

A couple of thoughts, right or wrong.

When you get a license, you sign that you are responsible for keeping control of your car at all times. If you lose control of your vehicle for any reason, you're liable for everything that happens from that point on. Doesn't matter if it's raining or snowing or the sun gets in your eyes, you're supposed to be in control.

That means that when you crash your car off the road and hurt yourself, it doesn't matter what you crashed into that destroyed your car or your life, regardless of who put it there. If someone put a concrete barrier up and you crash into it because you're drunk or speeding or a squirrel ran in front of your car, too bad, so sad. You're fault.

Then, of course, there is the closely related idea of contributory negligence that goes right along with all of the above. You drink. You drive. You crash. You sue. You lose. Hopefully, by a judge's dismissal.

Take that to a lawyer and see if you get laughed at or if he agrees. I'm curious.

Again, right or wrong...........

--Wag--

[john.k]

Wag....some lawyer takes you to court ......you win,you lose.....all your legals......you lose ,youre in trouble..........and you cant ignore it ,cause if youre a no show in court ,you have a judgement found against you automatically,and the lawyer will then go for an enforcement order.