old ww

[p7m13]

Hi,
I don't find here where I must present myself. French. First casting in 1982, at this time plain lead (Remington 1858)

Chemist engineer, my hobbies are : history around WW, history of 'the west', casting, Brinell measures, shooting (competition), electronics, country dance, non-professional beekeeper, manufacturer of opaque hives and clear hives, photograph, serious student in Lakota

My first question is : is anybody here able to say the exact composition of the 'old' alloys wheel weights ?? In Europe, these olds are marked Pb (for lead)
The marked Zk/Zc (zinc) or ZA (zinc aluminium) do not interest me : there are **** for what I want to do

[nun2kute]

I don't know what the composition of WW are.

Welcome to CB.

Good luck, in your search you might try the search function in the top right corner of this page.

[JBinMN]

Welcome to Castboolits.gunloads forum!
:)

An average COWW should be approximately 0.5% Tin(Sn), 2.0% Antimony(Sb), 97.5% Lead(Pb), with a "trace amount" of arsenic. They will be approximately 10-12 BHN.

Here is a quote taken from a LASC webpage, that, if you have not seen it, would be a good read for you:


Wheel Weight Alloy: [11]Metallurgically or otherwise, there is no justifiable disadvantage to using wheel weights for cast bullets. The wheel weight composition of 9% antimony in older editions of the Lyman Reloading Handbook is very much out of date. Recently obtained wheel weights average about 3% antimony. There’s not much doubt this is where the conventional wisdom comes from that wheel weight alloy isn’t a good bullet alloy because the composition keeps changing. It was changing 25-30 years ago, it has been reasonably stable since then with minor changes from manufacturer to manufacturer as the price of raw materials fluctuates. I have used, heat treated and tested wheel weight alloy almost exclusively for well over 15 years and haven’t found a difference significant enough to effect the alloy ballistically. There can’t be any doubt that there are minor differences from manufacturer to manufacturer and year to year as the cost of raw materials fluctuates, but the simple truth is that there hasn’t been a difference significant enough to affect groups, velocity or final heat treated BHN during this 15 year period. My notes indicate that the wheel weight alloy I have recently heat treated achieved the same final BHN as bullets heat treated 15 years ago. Pre-heat treated, as cast wheel weight alloy has fluctuated from 10 to 12 BHN during this time and my current batch (about 500 pounds) is 11 BHN. Pre 1970’s wheel weights averaged 9% antimony and during the 70’s this average was reduced, since the early 1980’s there appears to be little fluctuation in the percentage of antimony in wheel weight alloy and currently seems to be about 3%, maybe, maybe ... 4%. Remember in the first paragraph I said consistency in alloy from batch to batch is important? Wheel weight alloy has done this for me for the last 15 years.

It's an alloy that is readily available all across the country and anywhere from free to fairly cheap. At 10-11 BHN air cooled with a couple percent of tin added it is a good alloy for most non-magnum handgun loads and many light to medium rifle loads. As an example, my 308 rifle shoots 11 BHN air cooled wheel weight with 185 grain bullets at 1900 fps into surprising groups at 100 and 150 yards with no leading. Wheel weight alloy is an ideal bullet alloy for heat treating because of its percentage of antimony and a trace of arsenic. This alloy can be heat treated to 30+ BHN. Most loads do not generate nearly enough pressure to cause obturation at 30 BHN and yes, obturation is a good thing. Very top end 454 Casull loads at 65,000 PSI should work well with 30 BHN bullets.

When processing your wheel weights into ingots you should always separate the clip-on weight from the stick-on weights (the ones with foam tape on the back). Stick-on weights are nearly pure lead and by including them in your alloy you are softening the entire batch by diluting the antimony content. In addition, if your goal is to achieve consistency of your alloy, the quantity and the size of stick-on weights in each batch will vary considerably making it impossible to duplicate the alloy the next time. Plus, it seems such a waste of a good source of soft alloy.

More and more wheel weight manufacturers are using zinc, steel, alloy and even plastic weights in place of lead. Zinc weights can be difficult to detect when processing into ingots (some are painted to match tire rim color) and zinc in your alloy will cause all sorts of casting problems. Wheel weight alloy melting point is under 600oF and zinc melts at 787.15oF. When processing your weights into ingots keep the pot temperature at or only a little above 650o and no hotter, the zinc weights will float before they melt. If you see anything floating, remove it immediately.

Source:http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

{Note - I underlined some pertinent info for you in the 1st paragraph about the composition of "lead" COWW. ;) }

I hope that info is what you are looking for and helps you. There is more that could be offered available, but IMO, most of them pretty much say the same thing.

Once again, "Welcome!"
:)

[Green Frog]

P7m13, Welcome from Virginia! While your question is about wheel weights (commonly abbreviated on this board as “COWW” to reference clip-ons) I’d like to mention another possibility that might be valuable the you in France since COWWs are probably too hard for that Remington cap-and-ball revolver. Check around places where demolition of old buildings has been done. Lead “flashing” around chimneys, etc, lead drain pipes, and sometimes even lead sheeting on roofs will be found, usually pure, soft lead... just what you need! You might also find lead in old hospitals and clinics around x-ray rooms, and some dentists still do old fashioned x-rays using “bite wings,” each of which contains a tiny piece of lead foil. Since much of this lead is being changed out as buildings are demolished or renovated, it is part of the debris that must be removed and discarded, so may be quite reasonable, perhaps even free for the hauling. Good luck!

Froggie

[p7m13]

thanks for this response: antimony between 2 and 3 percent. My black powder Remington and Rogers & Spencer eat ONLY pure lead

[reddog81]

I've gotten buckets of wheel weights from a shop the does semi tires along with car tires. The larger weights for big truck tires were very soft and the small car weights would be very hard. the medium sized weights (.5 oz to 1 ounce) were soft enough to bend when pushed into a concrete block. Can you mark the lead with your fingernail? If so they are probably close to pure lead.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

P7m13,
Welcome to castboolits.

As JBinMN stated, the COWW (Clip-On Wheel weights) in the USA are approximately 0.5% Tin, 2.0% Antimony, 97.5% Lead ...But they can vary to 3% Antimony
I would be curious if they are similar in France?

My personal "experience" is that old COWW (1970s or 1980s) in the USA are the same approximate composition as the current manufacture...But it's likely others will disagree.

[lightman]

P7M13, Welcome to Cast Boolits!

I believe JB and JonB are correct. These numbers are for clip on weights. A member here, BNE, has XFR tested lots of weights and his findings agree. An older Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook claimed a little higher % of tin with older weights. I'm in agreement with this. This was in the 60's or 70's. I don't know if Wheel weights in France are made of the same alloys.

Stick on weights are softer and close to pure lead. They would be better for your intended use. Also, here in the States roofing lead, plumbing lead, lead pipe and lead cable sheathing are close to pure.

[p7m13]

in France we have "new' ww since fast 8 or 9 years ! The Rohs directive. Shi t s : alloys with Zn or Al or Zn/Al. These alloys are difficult to work and the surface tension is each time incorrect : all the projectiles are very ugly. You don't know the chance you have, finding easily ww with Pb

[Green Frog]

in France we have "new' ww since fast 8 or 9 years ! The Rohs directive. Shi t s : alloys with Zn or Al or Zn/Al. These alloys are difficult to work and the surface tension is each time incorrect : all the projectiles are very ugly. You don't know the chance you have, finding easily ww with Pb

Avoid those Zn and Zn/Al weights (as we say here) "Like the PLAGUE!" Even one or two of them in a batch of lead alloy will totally ruin the whole pot. As the current "environmentally friendly" weights take over the market and displace the old lead alloy ones, a variety of testing methods have been developed. It is often sufficient to use a pair of diagonal cutters to slice through them... Zn is much harder to cut. In addition, a drop of acid will fizz on Zn alloy but not on Pb alloy. There are some good things that can be cast from zinc... it's just not good for the types of bullets we generally do. [smilie=b:

BTW, have you had a chance to check around for scrap lead from building sources as I suggested? I've got a batch of old lead drain pipes to melt down the next time I fire up my old plumber's pot. I'll be shooting Minie Balls in a musket and .454 round balls in a Remington C&B revolver (repro) this week at the Spring Nationals of the North-South Skirmish Association (US Civil War weapons) so I'll be going through a lot of pure lead! :cbpour:

Best regards,
le Grenouille Verte

PS Never trust the auto-translate function... I actually knew better even though I took Spanish in high school! :mrgreen:

[bdicki]

400 tons of lead at Notre Dame.

[ole_270]

A buddy gave me a box of ww ingots from a stash he said he and his dad put together when he was a kid. Guessing late 50s-early 60s. I sent a sample to BNE for testing along with some other samples. Test came back 0.5% Sn, 4.4% Sb, and 0.25% Arsenic.

[Went2kck]

What is Notre Dame doing with that much lead?

[Winger Ed.]

What is Notre Dame doing with that much lead?

Probably the old drain pipes, sheeting on the roof under slate tiles, and the outline & edges for all the stained glass windows.