Optimal Over All Length (OAL) for .38 Special in 1873 Winchester Rifle

[Liberty1776]

Turns out the 1873 Winchester is designed to take a cartridge that is 1.60" long.

The minimum length for proper functioning is 1.450" and the bullet must have a flat point. (See the bottom of the post for why.)

I'm shooting down-loaded .38 Special (3 grains of Trail Boss pushing a 125 grain bullet) in both our revolvers and rifle, as many others do in Cowboy Action Shooting. Less expensive and simple to reload, low recoil, adequate power factor and brass is plentiful and affordable. But the .38 SPL is way shorter than 1.60". Too short.

I cast 125 grain RNFP bullets using a Lee 6-cavity 358-125-RF (Model 90306) Round Nose Flat Point aluminum mold. The bullet has a crimping groove in it. I powder coat and size using a Lee .358 push-through sizer after coating.

At first I seated the bullet into the .38 SPL brass to the crimping groove, but found the Winchester didn't like them. Sometimes I'd jack the lever and it just didn't want to load the next round without me wiggling the action to coax the round to chamber.

A little research at Long Hunter's site revealed some new-to-me design specs for the Winchester. http://www.longhunt.com/web/index.php?page=1873-winchester

From Long Hunter:


One of the most critical things to a lever action rifles operating efficiency is the over all length of the cartridge. Winchester rifles were designed to operate optimally with a cartridge length of 1.600”.

Winchester’s repeating magazine is operated by a carrier block which captures a round from the magazine tube and elevates it to the firing chamber. However before the carrier can elevate the captured round upwards, it must also “shear” the next round in the magazine (slightly hanging out into the carrier) back up in the magazine tube to wait its turn.

When a given cartridge is too short, part of the next cartridge in line will come back even further into the carrier and cause the action to lock up, run very rough, or barely operate. This is seldom an issue with calibers like the .45LC, .44-40, 38-40 etc., and can go un-noticed in rifles without action jobs.

However, using .38 specials can sometimes pose problems. We do our best to make our rifles feed .38 special since it is the competitive caliber to shoot. However any 1873 must be fed a cartridge with a minimum length of 1.450”, any longer than this will only allow the rifle to operate smoother and more reliably with a full magazine.

Many individuals will use .357 mag brass when reloading their .38 rounds. This allows them to achieve a longer length without seating the bullets out of the case.

The other alternative if your .38’s do not fall within the required length is to seat your bullets out of the case further. They do not need to be crimped in the crimp groove.

Sure enough, after I seated my bullet just a bit further out, for an OAL of 1.458", the Winchester cycles flawlessly. And, of course, they work in the Ruger New Vaquero revolvers too. Then I lengthened the OAL to 1.480 or a few thousandths more. They work smoothly.

(Click on the images below to enlarge, then click on it again to get it even bigger.)

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The other info at Long Hunter is concerning why the bullet needs to be flat point.


Another cartridge requirement for 1873 Winchesters is a flat point on the bullet’s nose. 1873’s cannot feed round noses.

Without the flat point on the end of the cartridge (especially in the .38 special) the bullets will zig-zag themselves in the magazine tube. This usually prevents the magazine being fully loaded, and causes the rifle to jam.

Lever action rifles of all types will also not feed wad cutters reliably. The rim on the edge of the bullet acts as a hang nail when the round is entering the chamber.

[dangitgriff]

Good info.
Now where do we get a mold that throws a WFN boolit without a crimp groove or any lube grooves if we prefer powder coated pills?

[bedbugbilly]

Good info. An interesting read for me as I am on the verge of getting a '73 in 38/357. I know you are using 125 grain boolits, but go to Accurate molds and take a look at the several molds listed that have been designed for just such an issue. I believe they are listed for use in the Henry lever action rifle and if I'm not mistaken, were designed by a member here. They are heavier but have two crimp grooves - 1 used when seating in a 38 special case and one when seating in a 357 case. With things being finicky with COAL and feeding, I thought it was an ideal solution to the issue of poor feed problems. I'm sure you could design a 125 grain FN with the same design with two different crimp grooves so either casing could be utilized in the rifle.

I'm downsizing and doing away with some guns and cartridges that I load. I'm looking at a Uberti '73 - probably a short rifle or sporting rifle length. I'm also looking at one of the Henry Firearms Big Boy steel carbine in 38/357 just for a "knock around gun". It was in my searches here that I ran across a thread on the Henry and the mention of the two crimp groove boo lit design.

I'm sure that many just solve the problem by seating out to the needed COAL and it works just fine for them. In my case, I'd rather use 38 special casings as range brass is easy to come by and I wouldn't care if I lost a spent casing once in a while as opposed to 357 casings. And, like you and so many others, I want a cartridge that will work in both the rifle or carbine as well as my Uberti 4 3/4" Bisley.

You are shooting mild loads so am curious - looking at your photo I can't tell - are you using a taper crimp or a mild roll crimp. While I don't load "max" or "near max" loads they are stiffer than your load, I don't PC and for use in both my revolver and for potential use in a soon to be acquired rifle, I would much prefer to use a roll crimp. Im sure that when a lead slug is seated and the crimp groove does not line up, a mild roll crimp could be applied if the lead/alloy is soft enough. While I have both roll and taper crimp dies for 38/357 and 45 Colt, I experimented with both crimp styles on my 45 Colts and even with mid range loads, with the taper crimp I experienced a few boolit movements out of my Uberti '73 Cattleman so the taper crimp die for the cartridge is "parked".

Thanks for the post - looks like you've found a winning combination for your rifle/pistol. Enjoy and have fun!

.

[Liberty1776]

You are shooting mild loads so am curious - looking at your photo I can't tell - are you using a taper crimp or a mild roll crimp. While I don't load "max" or "near max" loads they are stiffer than your load, I don't PC and for use in both my revolver and for potential use in a soon to be acquired rifle, I would much prefer to use a roll crimp. Im sure that when a lead slug is seated and the crimp groove does not line up, a mild roll crimp could be applied if the lead/alloy is soft enough. While I have both roll and taper crimp dies for 38/357 and 45 Colt, I experimented with both crimp styles on my 45 Colts and even with mid range loads, with the taper crimp I experienced a few boolit movements out of my Uberti '73 Cattleman so the taper crimp die for the cartridge is "parked".

Just the other day a CAS shooter's rifle completely locked up because one of his bullets slipped back into the case. The crimp is important -- especially for tube magazine fed rifles that put pressure on each round via the spring and recoil.

That said, I have two crimping systems. For my .38 Special toolhead, I use the Dillon Crimp Die.
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Dillon explains:

NOTE: All Dillon Pistol Die sets include our sizer/ decap die, seat die and a separate crimp die. (Taper crimp for autos; accu-crimp for revolvers.)

So, to answer your question, I'm applying an "accu-crimp" -- whatever that is. The die is adjusted up or down to change the crimp. It seems to work, so I haven't changed out the crimp die...yet.

My other crimper is the Lee Factory Crimp Die, which I use almost every time I can. It's on my .357 Mag toolhead.

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I really like the Lee FCD because it has an additional carbide sizing ring that puts that final polish on the round at the last reloading stage as well as applying an easily adjusted, reliable crimp.

So if the bullet opens up the brass diameter a bit or the case flare isn't just right, or there's a bulge somewhere for whatever reason, the round is brought back into spec as it's crimped just before it drops into the output bin.

Another plus for the Lee FCD -- you simply turn the knurled knob to adjust the amount of crimp. No wrenches or fiddling needed. You install the die by running it all the way down to the shellplate, much like a sizer/decapper. Once it's set, you leave it alone. Then play with the amount of crimp using the knurled knob. Very precise and easy.

From Lee:

A carbide sizer inside the Carbide Factory Crimp die post-sizes the cartridge while it is crimped so every round will positively chamber freely with factory like dependability. The adjusting screw quickly and easily sets the desired amount of crimp. It is impossible to buckle the case as with a conventional bullet seating die. Trim length is not critical so this extra operation takes less time than it would if cases were trimmed and chamfered.

Revolver dies roll crimp with no limit as to the amount. A perfect taper crimp is applied to auto-loader rounds. The crimper cannot be misadjusted to make a case mouth too small to properly head-space. A firm crimp is essential for dependable and accurate ammunition. It eliminates the problems of poor ignition of slow burning magnum powders.

Finally, apparently both Lee and Dillon select the type of crimp they employ based on the caliber you order -- roll for revolvers, taper for autos.

[Liberty1776]

I know you are using 125 grain boolits, but go to Accurate molds and take a look at the several molds listed that have been designed for just such an issue. I believe they are listed for use in the Henry lever action rifle and if I'm not mistaken, were designed by a member here. They are heavier but have two crimp grooves - 1 used when seating in a 38 special case and one when seating in a 357 case.

Two crimping grooves would be welcomed, for sure. And I'm barely past the minimum 1.450" as it is. As Long Hunter said, the longer the COAL, the better the function, up to the 1.600" limit.

I am using a fairly soft alloy (3 parts lead, one part Wheel Weights, then water quenching) as the velocity and pressures are low and the powder coating seems to be working so I think I'm roll crimping into the lead adequately. So far, no bullets have shifted backward that I'm aware of. But a proper crimp groove would be nice.

One other option is to purchase 125 gr RNFP moly-coated bullets from Bear Creek Supply. They don't have any grooves at all and are used very successfully at our club. Then again, this is about casting. I'll check out the Accurate mold. Thanks.

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