To Quench or not to quench naked boolits.

[Fisher]

Okes, this has all to do with naked cast boolits and nothing to do with powder coated boolits, but I just opened this post in the powder coating section which I thought might answer a question I have, but it didn’t.

(For interest sake you can find it here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?380103-To-Quench-or-not-to-Quench).

What is the negative thing about quenching in water straight from the mold?

Besides causing a “hardening “ when using a suitable alloy, the main advantage for me as apposed to air cooling, is the faster pace you can cast at. Because you can dump the hot boolts in your bucket of water in one swipe and go on casting, without the extra time it takes to carefully drop them on an appropriate soft surface to prevent hurting the fragile hot boolit, and because you don’t have an additional “hot pile” of stuff to be responsible for.

[44Blam]

Only time I had an issue with powder coating was after water dropping. I must have had some contamination in the bucket or water.

Anyway, the only boolits I water drop now are high velocity rifle boolits. Otherwise, I just use a hard alloy and wait...

[tazman]

The possible downside is getting a splash of water that lands in your pot causing a visit from the tinsel fairy.
My water is in a large bowl a couple of feet below and to one side of my lead pot. So far, I have never had any splashes get violent enough to reach my pot.
The water container keeps the "hot pile" small and they don't stay hot long so you won't get burned by mistakenly handling hot boolits.
I dump them out on a dry towel and roll them around a bit. They dry very quickly that way.
Saves a lot of space in my area.
I don't powder coat and currently all my casting is for handguns.

[cwlongshot]

I do both depending on the hardness needed.

Most of my HG stuff is targeted at 12 bhn. Rifle I target 16-18 bhn. (Just a guide) quenching a “12” gets me a “20” so generally harder then I “need” or prefer.

BUT I do also quench after PC and that hardness change seems more variable.

CW

[mdi]

Other than hardening, I see no (or at best minimal) reason for water dropping. I have an aluminum cake pan, about 12"x12" with a folded towel in the bottom. I drop my fresh bullets onto the towel and never get banged up bullets. I guess if I was clueless and didn't pay any attention to hot bullets laying in the pan, or a hot mold, I might burn myself, but (knock on wood) I haven't burned myself in many years. (Once many years ago I was just starting casting when I dropped a "perfect" bullet from my mold, and elated, I picked it up. I didn't hold it too long, like 1/16th second. I guess I learned fresh bullets are hot and pain hurts, but no burns that bad since...:roll:).

[Froogal]

Other than hardening, I see no (or at best minimal) reason for water dropping. I have an aluminum cake pan, about 12"x12" with a folded towel in the bottom. I drop my fresh bullets onto the towel and never get banged up bullets. I guess if I was clueless and didn't pay any attention to hot bullets laying in the pan, or a hot mold, I might burn myself, but (knock on wood) I haven't burned myself in many years. (Once many years ago I was just starting casting when I dropped a "perfect" bullet from my mold, and elated, I picked it up. I didn't hold it too long, like 1/16th second. I guess I learned fresh bullets are hot and pain hurts, but no burns that bad since...:roll:).

That is how I do it. Drop the bullets onto a damp towel and go.

[bobthenailer]

I water drop from the mould into a 5 + gallon bucket of water with shipping peanuts floating on top of the water to help control splashing .
The only down side is if you wait over 12 to 24 hours the bullets will harden and may be alot harder to size and lube depends on as cast dia vrs sizing dia , sometimes spraying case lube on bullets will help!
I personaly have been water dropping from the mould for about 30 years and lube and size right after casting a batch of bullets

[Shuz]

Metallurgists claim (Dennis Marshall for one that I recall)that if you size quench cast boolits, you work soften the sides that touch the sizing die, therefore defeating your purpose. They claim that the best way to go is to size first and then heat treat as a batch in a small oven and then apply lube and gas check(if needed).That way the whole boolit is hard, and they are all uniform in hardness cause they all hit the water at the same time.

[tazman]

I have heard that before. I usually size as quickly as possible after casting. It doesn’t seem to have any effect on the hardness. The sides of the boolit still harden in a couple of days.

[Ranger 7]

I cast using two lee six cavity molds in series.
Drop into five gallon bucket of water, via a shirt covering the bucket top with a six inch slit in it.
Do this with all caliber/weights, no problems, no leading.

[243winxb]

The bullet that sticks in the mold, hits the water late, is of a different hardness then the others. Opens groups at 50 yards , 45 acp.

See post #8 for the Lyman method.


Lyman - Heat Treatment of Cast Bullets to Harden Them
Q: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?
A: Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has some antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size your bullets but do not lubricate them. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for a half hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. These are now ready for loading.

[megasupermagnum]

As 243winxb said, if a bullet is slow to hit the water, one would think the hardness would be different. Against what I thought, EVERY SINGLE TEST I have ever seen of air cool vs water dropped, the WD bullets have a more consistent hardness. More consistent from one week to one year and beyond. I was really surprised how much air cooled alloy changes over time, and how inconsistent they are bullet to bullet.

I personally lean towards heat treating for the one simple reason that I can cast a bunch of bullets, size them, and store them as long as needed. With water dropped bullets, you have to size all of them within a day or two. I still air cool most of my bullets.

[243winxb]

Air cooled tin alloys will soften over time from the study i read.

Oven heat treating, water dropped alloys containing 2% antimony will fully harden in 2 weeks. Higher % harden even faster. The increased hardness is thru out the bullet, not just surface *hardening.

I air cool with the proper alloy, thats needed.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.html Method of making a hardened bullet


______________________________________
Heating Time Brinell Hardness (min.) (range)
______________________________________

5 -19.6-21.3
10- 25.5-28
20- 24.3-25.5
30 -28-29

[winelover]

I don't powder coat and the only bullets I heat treat are rifle bullets that are going to be pushed over 2000 fps. When I heat treat, I use a convection oven and a ice bath. Bullets are first sized and checked, for the reasons listed in post #8. IMO, handgun bullets don't require heat treating..........alloy/BHN can be adjusted as required. Gas checks can be applied to soft alloys.

Winelover

[Wayne Smith]

First time I water dropped rifle boolits I opened the mold to soon - and took banana shaped boolits out of the water! I learned to slow down.

[jsizemore]

It takes no more time to drop bullets on a couple towels then it does into a bucket of water.

[mdi]

I always figgered if I needed harder bullets, I'd go with a harder alloy (linotype is around 21-22 BHN, waaaay harder than I'll ever need, and if that ain't hard enough I'll just go with jacketed bullets). I cast and dump bullets on a folded towel in a cake pan. I can't see how water dropping is any faster or produce more bullets, but actually take longer (filling a bucket, retrieving bullets, drying bullets, disposing of bucket full of water)...

[Walks]

I've always water dropped. Clean Five gallon bucket. Keep it clean by storing it upside down on a clean towel with a 5lb lead ingot on top of the bottom.

I have it directly under my Bottom pour pot. My pot in clamped to the bench with an old cookie sheet about 3 inches of overhang. A 4cav ingot mold is on the base of the pot for drips. My pots Don't drip, but sometimes you get a bit of run off from the sprue plate. And every now and then ya hit the handle and a bit runs out.

I pour water and bullets out into a kitchen strainer. Spread out on a clean towel on the concrete in the sun, cover with another clean towel, weighted down on the corners with an ingot. When dry 4-5hrs later I bundle up the towel and pour into clean 2-3 lb coffee cans.

Label lid with masking tape, and sort/cull later.

For pure lead RB & Maxi-balls they get dipper cast in 2cav& 1cav molds and dropped on a very thick towel.

I use the towel in another old cookie sheet. After about 5 casts from all molds, I just push them over to the edge of the cookie sheet. About 5 minutes cooling time.

[gnostic]

The metal I cast with is junk range scrap, after water dropping they come out as good as wheel weights or linotype. I load hot 44mag, 9mm, 3030win and 357mag without problems...

[David2011]

The possible downside is getting a splash of water that lands in your pot causing a visit from the tinsel fairy.

A splash onto the surface of the molten lead will dance around until it evaporates. It will only create a steam explosion if the water is forced under the surface.

[Bigslug]

I've quit quenching on the drop in favor of batch quenching after oven heat treating.

1. It lets me size them when they're air cooled and softer.

2. I suspect it gets a much more uniform hardness than when the occasional bullet is refusing to drop out of the mold and air cooling in the process.

3. For drop-quenching, I'd have the bucket on the floor next to me. For air-cooling, I have a box with a dry towel much closer to the pot - lots less turning and bending that way.

[megasupermagnum]

I will add one more advantage in favor of oven heat treating. You don't get damaged bullets. I've tried a number of methods to drop bullets softly into a bucket, but no matter what, all too often I get bullets with a ding in the base. You don't have to drop that carefully on a towel to air cool, but they don't seem to be damaged when only falling a couple inches onto a towel. For me, both water drop and air cool are equally fast.

Air Cool Pro's:
Simple and effective
Softest bullets
Can size whenever you want

AC Con's:
Softer bullets?
Less consistent hardness
More cramped casting bench

Water Dropped Pro's:
Harder bullets?
More consistent hardness
Less cluttered casting area

WD Con's:
Harder bullets?
Have to size immediately
Damaged bullets
Cannot cull bullets until after done casting

Heat Treat Pro's:
Can be quenched to maximum possible hardness or...
Can be quenched to a softer hardness than water drop
No damage to bullets if done correctly
Possibly most consistent hardness (Everything I've seen has shown WD to be just as consistent)

HT Con's:
Slowest method
Harder bullets than air cooled?
Requires an oven and thermometer
Have to size bullets before quenching and lube separately after or size/lube immediately after quenching


In my experience, quenched range lead performs better than air cooled hardball alloy, both about the same hardness. Lead is good. The more of it I can get in an alloy and maintain enough hardness the better.

[frkelly74]

I had to try it once for the 41 Mag, just to see. I shot a 1/2" piece of steel plate and the hard boolits made a noticeable dent that was the shape of the bullet point in the plate and shattered into a grainy residue. Soft boolits did not dent the plate and made coin like disks with sharp edges and significant loss of material around the edges.

[bobthenailer]

Been only water dropping from the mould for decades ! many 100s of K made way for all pistol & some rifle .

[lightman]

Except for some experiments early in my casting career I don't heat treat or water drop. I drop my freshly cast bullets onto a folded towel. Every few cycles while waiting for the sprue to cool I'll gently push the freshly cast bullets to the back of the towel. I don't see any time advantage either way. You are going to have a few seconds waiting on the sprue to cool unless you are running two molds.

[Bigslug]

I will add one more advantage in favor of oven heat treating. You don't get damaged bullets. I've tried a number of methods to drop bullets softly into a bucket, but no matter what, all too often I get bullets with a ding in the base.

The trick to that is to (A.) sink a towel to the bottom of your drop bucket, and (B.) cut up a bunch of cheap kitchen sponges into little strips and let them float on top of the water in a fairly dense layer. This slows the fall of your bullet enough to prevent damage.

HOWEVER. . .I've since moved past that.

Another downside to the immediate water drop is that you have to wait until you're done to cull the rejects and let the rejects dry before you can melt them again.

[megasupermagnum]

I've never tried sponges, but I've gone so far as dropping onto a towel that is only 2" under the water surface, and then poking them with a stick so they fall the rest of the way onto another towel at the bottom of the bucket. A 2 cavity mold isn't too bad, but the 4, 5, and 6 cavity molds have about 10 percent with a ding in the base. The only other cure I can think of is dropping into a shallow tub with only 2" of water and a towel at the bottom. A 5 gallon bucket sure doesn't work for me.

You are correct on the second point, I'll add it to the chart.