Share, 44-40 vs the 30-30

[Savvy Jack]

On a side note;

Sharpe, not Share....geeesh!

"The Winchester bore diameter is .429. All available soft points are about .424. One shooter gets finest results by swaging .424 bullets to .429 for Winchester rifles. Remington and Marlin rifles measure .424, therefore factory bullets are satisfactory in those barrels. Properly loaded, this cartridge has more knockdown powder than a .30-.30" ~ Sharpe - 1937

Although I have measured old 1920's JSP bullets to be .4255 to .426, I have measured some older dissected swaged bullets as small as .422, so I think there is some Merritt in what Sharpe says. I 100% agree with the 30-30 remark BUT only for closer distance shooting, I would prefer the 30-30 if it meant going hungry if I missed a deer with the shot at greater distances of 150 yards.

Let the flaming begin!! :swagemine:

[Ozark mike]

I'd take a 44 WCF don't have much use for 30 30

[Texas by God]

If you're talking cast boolits, I agree the wider flat nose 44-40 might hit harder. But with jacketed bullets I think the 30-30 would win out. BUT this is conjecture on my part; I've killed lots of deer with 30-30 jacketed and one with cast. All I've taken with the 44-40 is one Turkey. I have both and love both.

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[woody1]

Not trying to disparage the 44 WCF, but at no point does it outdo the 30 WCF in energy imparted even in the HV loadings with 200 gr. bullets. The only difference is possibly the size of hole it might make.

[Bazoo]

The 30wcf might not have as much knockdown power up front but it will make up for it in penetration. Judging the cartridges by their performances on deer ain't much of a comparison. The larger game, moose, elk, black bear, brown bear, sea lion, polar bear, that's where the comparison should be made.

I don't know the tract record of the 44wcf on any of those species, but I know the 30wcf has counted more than it's share of elk, moose, and blackies, and while not ideal I know even brown bear has fallen to it. Undoubtedly it all was with jacketed bullets.

I say the 30WCF is superior even if jacketed bullets are used in both, or if cast used in both.

[Savvy Jack]

Why would Winchester design and manufacture the 30-30 if it were not indeed superior to the -40's?

[Maine1]

the 30-30 does not get a lot of credit these days, as environmental contamination has resulted in deer and other critters eating Kevlar and other bullet resistant fibers, thus the older calibers like 30-30, 3006 ect are just not powerful enough anymore, and we need 300 win mag, 7mm mag, ect..
I kid of course...

the 30-30 works, works better than it really should on paper. In its day it was known as a powerful round and used on everything, as was the 308, '06, ect. Just as the 44-40 was in its day
Those were days when most working men could afford a single rifle, learned to shoot it, and used it as the tool it was.

[Ozark mike]

My legal first deer was shot w 3030 but still I like the 44wcf better. but I'm also a serious black powder addict[smilie=w:

[Maine1]

Mike, I hear you there...those BP cartridge rifles have a siren song.
I don't have one.
I don't NEED another gun related project.
Yet, it seems like every shop I frequent has some NICE hypen-caliber levergun that is really cool.
last show I was at, one guy had an original 1893 marlin..unfired, mint condition...
Another shop has a worn Winchester 1896 in 38-56...its got no finish left, but its smooth as glass.

[Ozark mike]

My therapist says no more 45-70s but what does she know ha ha
I've been thinking of a Shiloh 50 2 1/2 but money doesn't grow on trees in this state

[Savvy Jack]

the 30-30 does not get a lot of credit these days, as environmental contamination has resulted in deer and other critters eating Kevlar and other bullet resistant fibers, thus the older calibers like 30-30, 3006 ect are just not powerful enough anymore, and we need 300 win mag, 7mm mag, ect..
I kid of course...

the 30-30 works, works better than it really should on paper. In its day it was known as a powerful round and used on everything, as was the 308, '06, ect. Just as the 44-40 was in its day
Those were days when most working men could afford a single rifle, learned to shoot it, and used it as the tool it was.

:bigsmyl2:

30-40
38-40
44-40
30-30
30-06

I just don't think it gets any better!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hey, Jack -- you missed .30-40! :-D

[Ozark mike]

Ah yes the beloved kraig

[Texas by God]

The .30 WCF was the sporting answer to the .30 Army military cartridge. John Browning invented the 94 Winchester but I don't know if he designed the cartridge. I love it!

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[Bazoo]

JMB didn't invent the 30-30 cartridge. I have read about it's inception but can't remember now if they said specifically who invented it other than just the boys over at winchester. I will go back and see if I can find that snippit again.

[northmn]

What is knockdown power? I have never seen any example of it. Are they saying a deer shot with a 44-40 won't run as far as one shot with a 30-30? The concept in a hunting rifle is basically hogwash. I shot one once that ran about 50-60 yards with a 45-70 and a Gould hollow point. That would beat the 44-40 hands down. As far as cast in a 30-30, if you know what you are doing you can get a cast bullet that expands as well as any jacketed. The 30-30 is about as easy to load with cast as any cartridge I have seen and can be loaded to about 2000 fps with a 190 grain bullet. Plus you don't have to take any extra care for flimsy case mouths that can easily buckle.

The 94 pretty much made the 44-40 obsolete with its smokeless offerings. Even the 44 magnum would only have an advantage up close over the 30-30, due to their poor sectional density they lose velocity pretty quick. Every one wants to compare deer rifles to the 30-30. Frank Barnes in Cartridges of the World used the 30-30 as a yard stick for deer cartridges and loved to say this one or that one was better. My experiences did not parallel a lot of his comments, as they were based on energy. The 44-40 is a special interest cartridge for historical enthusiasts but for practical purposes it is relegated into the other BP cartridges that the 30-30 and other like it made obsolete, even the modern 44 mag is a better up close choice. Many of the 44-40 rifles are also not meant to take 44 mag level loads. Lots of game was taken with those old cartridges but they were constantly trying to get more range out of them.

The 44-40 remained because of the sheer numbers of rifles made for it. The 92 Winchester and the 94 Marlin had to be resurrected due to cowboy shooting interests. The 94 Marlin got adapted to pistol cartridges that got popular with the interchangeability enthusiasts. A concept less practical than some realize. When I was younger I talked to a lot of older men that lived through the depression like my father did. They had a deer rifle, often a Winchester 94, many times a Savage 99, a shotgun and a 22 rifle. A pistol many of them held in high esteem was a 22 Colt woodsman. Any 44-40's or 32-20's etc were given to the kids to hunt with until they grew into a regular rifle.

DEP

[northmn]

We get caught up in that "which is better" thinking or debate a lot. I am as bad as any one. I wondered for a while how the 44-40 got so popular as it was pretty anemic even in its day. The "serious" riflemen used single shots and more powerful cartridges.

It was a handy cartridge in all of its uses. In Winchester it was the 44WCF, I believe Marlin was the one that gave it the 44-40 moniker. There were singles shots that used it and pump rifles. There was even one smooth bore that used 44-40 bird shot loads. It was not a powerful cartridge but it was compact and sold in boxes of 50. Trappers and cowboys would sometimes spend time in a cabin and would have to pack in supplies with pack horses, which meant every ounce counted. It had enough power to handle larger game, yet would work on smaller stuff. With its higher magazine capacity it was also used for personal defense against other humans, which also made it popular with lawmen. IN its place it was a handy cartridge that lasted up to the mid 1930's. There is more to cartridge comparisons than ballistics.

DEP

[Larry Gibson]

"Properly loaded, this cartridge has more knockdown power than a .30-.30"

Bwaaaahaaaaahaaaa............considering earlier in Sharpe's description of the 44-40 he states; "The 44/40 makes an excellent cartridge, properly loaded, for all game up to deer. , and although the author does not consider it sufficiently powerful for the latter game......"

[Ozark mike]

The only thing I can think of that may knock something down is recoil or maybe a 460wby vs small game

[Norske]

Knockdown, Taylor Knockout, and Matunas' Optimal Range for Big Game are all based on momentum, not kinetic energy. The difference becomes important if the game is large enough or dangerous enough that the hunter wants to be able to break bones.
The often quoted comparison is the KE of a hot-loaded 22-250 is equal or greater than an over-the-counter Rem Core-Lokt 45-70. Both will kill a medium sized whitetail deer, but only one is effective on black bear and bigger game, including bison. KE= 1/2 m times velocity squared; Momentum is m times velocity.
To compare KE vs M dig out a couple boxes of factory ammo. Divide the published KE by the velocity and multiply that answer times 2 to get the momentum of that load.
The diameter of the bullet adds another important factor as does expansion. Now the formulas get complicated.

[Norske]

Knockdown, Taylor Knockout, and Matunas' Optimal Range for Big Game are all based on momentum, not kinetic energy. The difference becomes important if the game is large enough or dangerous enough that the hunter wants to be able to break bones.
The often quoted comparison is the KE of a hot-loaded 22-250 is equal or greater than an over-the-counter Rem Core-Lokt 45-70. Both will kill a medium sized whitetail deer, but only one is effective on black bear and bigger game, including bison. KE= 1/2 m times velocity squared; Momentum is m times velocity.
To compare KE vs M dig out a couple boxes of factory ammo. Divide the published KE by the velocity and multiply that answer times 2 to get the momentum of that load.
The diameter of the bullet adds another important factor as does expansion. Now the formulas get complicated.
Yes, recoil is also calculated via momentum. Newton's law of action/reaction is momentum based, not KE based.

[Norske]

Knockdown, Taylor Knockout, and Matunas' Optimal Range for Big Game are all based on momentum, not kinetic energy. The difference becomes important if the game is large enough or dangerous enough that the hunter wants to be able to break bones.
The often quoted comparison is the KE of a hot-loaded 22-250 is equal or greater than an over-the-counter Rem Core-Lokt 45-70. Both will kill a medium sized whitetail deer, but only one is effective on black bear and bigger game, including bison. KE= 1/2 m times velocity squared; Momentum is m times velocity. A 44 magnum is about as effictive as a 30-30.
To compare KE vs M dig out a couple boxes of factory ammo. Divide the published KE by the velocity and multiply that answer times 2 to get the momentum of that load.
The diameter of the bullet adds another important factor as does expansion. Now the formulas get complicated.
Yes, recoil is also calculated via momentum. Newton's law of action/reaction is momentum based, not KE based.

[Maine1]

:bigsmyl2:

38-40
44-40
30-30
30-06

I just don't think it gets any better!



This is SO dangerous though..

I knew very little about the 38-40 until a few months ago. There is a really nice 38- 56 at a shop I go by a few times a year, and I have to admire it every time. Since I knew only a little about the caliber, I started looking into it. And that brought me to 38-40.
I DONT NEED another caliber!...but like I said, the siren song and the historical aspect are very interesting.

Truthfully, though they have their limitations, I still think a guy who has a good lever rifle that he truly knows, in a caliber he has established loads for, and shot enough to know his dope and range is well armed even today, regardless of the date that caliber was originally released.

Look at the popularity of the 45-70, still in use today, and as popular as ever thanks to the guide guns and single shots still made in that caliber.

[Ajohns]

Don't be scared, it's only an investment lol. The trick is try get as many as you can so you can test yourself on which one is the better.

[Savvy Jack]

Hey, Jack -- you missed .30-40! :-D

edited...lol

[Savvy Jack]

"properly loaded, this cartridge has more knockdown power than a .30-.30"

bwaaaahaaaaahaaaa............considering earlier in sharpe's description of the 44-40 he states; "the 44/40 makes an excellent cartridge, properly loaded, for all game up to deer. , and although the author does not consider it sufficiently powerful for the latter game......"

ding ding we have a winner!!!!!!!!!!

That is correct and the first thing I noticed!!!!!!

Sharp calls the 44-40 not acquitted for deer then turns around and says the 44-40 is more powerful than the 30-30 when loaded correctly. Not that is is or isn't, I do take notice on "opinions" when I read books.

[northmn]

The 44-40 in the 73 was what is called an opportunistic combination. The 73 was about as handy of rifle as one could find and when the magazine was loaded was basically an early AR15. Also back then seasons were somewhat hazy. Winchester must love how much many folks trust their marketing when they stated that the 32-20, a 73 cartridge is good for both small game and deer or that the 44-40 was good out to 200 yards or something like that. IN BP days the 22's were not as handy as today. 73's probably got wore out as much from scabbard wear and bouncing around in buggies and wagons as from shooting.

I point this out because technical advances gave us other cartridges and rifles that were so much improved. Many say that the only reason the 30-30 has survived is because of the handy rifles like the 94 and 336's that it is chambered in. A 94 or 336 is just as handy as a 73 and both have also seen a lot of carry in modern buggies like pickups and on tractors and quads. Longer range also. But then you have to look at all the 94 offerings like the 25-35 and 32 special. Same for the 73.

DEP

[Der Gebirgsjager]

northmn -- I agree with much of what you said. Interesting how many 1873s were made, and it seems relatively few survived. I guess they got used up, or went to the Old Guns Home to die. Great combination, the 1873 and the .44-40 WCF, and we should not forget that they were also chambered in other calibers of which even fewer seemed to survive. The .44-40 will get the job done within range limitations, and I like it.

Could be that the .30-30 Win. just survived because of the light, handy rifles in which it is normally chambered, but it does have the attributes of having mild recoil and of getting the job done to which it is usually applied. It just fills a certain spot in the cartridge world, and I think it will still be around for a long time. I like the .30-30.

I've got both, like both, but if one had to go I'd keep the .30-30.

DG

[Gray Fox]

If I recall correctly, Tom Horn, the cattlemen's association hit man, switched to the .30-30 because of its increased range and flatter trajectory over whatever BP lever gun he had been using to take out sod busters. GF

[onelight]

May be it has to do with a sectional density on a 170 gr. .308. Bullet .256 as compared to 200 gr. .430 bullet sectional density of .122 all else being equal (bullet design & velocity) the .256 will win in penetration and retained velocity at long range.
44-40 and 3030 are both fun old classics that still do the job.

[Ozark mike]

I see where a 44 mag was compared with a 3030 that's a different Galaxy altogether. My mother back in the 80s shot a doe at about 150 yds the shot went thru a blackjack oak and the dear acted like it had been hit with a sledgehammer as if it knocked it down. This was with a 44 Ruger auto rifle

[Texas by God]

Phil Sharpe was known to drink quite a bit.

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[RED BEAR]

The 44-40 suffers from the same thing all large heavy bullets do at range you shoot in an arch. The 30/30 is a flatter shooting round with more power and penetration. I own neither and don't hunt but i have been looking for a deal on a 30/30 for a while. Wouldn't mind a 44/40 ether but one thing at a time. But in reality to say one is better for this or that they both have there uses and i hope to enjoy shooting them both someday.

[Savvy Jack]

The 44-40 suffers from the same thing all large heavy bullets do at range you shoot in an arch. The 30/30 is a flatter shooting round with more power and penetration. I own neither and don't hunt but i have been looking for a deal on a 30/30 for a while. Wouldn't mind a 44/40 ether but one thing at a time. But in reality to say one is better for this or that they both have there uses and i hope to enjoy shooting them both someday.

I have both and prefer the 30-30....really the 30-06 but I just don't mention those much ;-)

[Maine1]

its funny, but after owning a variety of rifles, shooting them, lugging them over hill and dale, shooting some more, loading ammo, and having them out in the weather....it occurred to me that though the thought is NOT original, the 94/336 really IS a nearly perfectly balanced package of portability, power, accuracy, and HANDINESS when moving on foot in rougher country and you might have to take a quick shot. The 94 in particular I find excellent.
What I HAVE noticed, that I really did not care about before, is the difference in feel of a pre-64 1894. The sights are MUCH finer than on my 1971 30-30. Makes it easier to hit with at longer ranges. The rifle feels tighter, like its under tension.
BOTH are accurate.
The 44-40 I do not own, but I have a marlin 44 magnum, only got it this year so not a lot of longer range shooting on that gun as yet.
Plan on doing quite a bit of head to head work with 30-30's this year, comparing 150/170 gr SP rounds ,a s well as the 160 FTX rounds, to see if the FTX is REALLY all that better than the 150 or 170.
Im thinking that one would just be better off deciding on a round that shot well in their rifle 150 or 170, stocking up on bullets and brass, and shooting that round until you could hit with it to the effective range of it. Duh. Just like granpaw said.
It will never be a 308, '06 or one of the more modern rounds, but it still will do 80-90% or practical rifle tasks without much fuss. and it does not eject brass into the snow, grass, or next county so I can reload it. its just enough, overall.

[northmn]

Maine, just to complicate your life a little more Barnes now makes a 190 grain just for the 30-30. They can be driven at about 2000 fps. I used a cast at about that weight and liked it enough to get a 35 Remington. Just thought I would mention it.

30-30's today are all carbines. Back in the day many had longer barrels with a longer sighting radius and did shoot flatter than the BP rifles.
The 44-40 and the 73 were made until the 1930's I believe but the 30-30 and other cartridges similar, pretty much made the old obsolete very quick. Estimating range was more tricky in the early days and the issue with the punkin slingers was mostly the fact that if one misjudged by a few yards the trajectory was such that a miss was easy. This winter I have been rereading Jim Corbett's stories about hunting in India. He liked to use a 275 or 7X57 as many call it for longer range hunting. He would talk about the Express sights used back then where he would fold up the 300 yard sight for instance to shoot at the range he estimated. We have to use glass today. He also wrote about his successful shots. Didn't write as much about the ones that weren't. Corbett was still to be respected.

Those that don't use one tend to misjudge the 30-30. There was a video on them where the speaker was talking about the misconceptions on the 30-30. Where an individual missed a deer because he held over its back to allow for bullet drop at 75 yards. I have shot deer with them and watched my daughter take a few with one. When some put them down too much I have mentioned that she did well with one and anyone with the skill of a 14 year old girl should be able to use one well. Its a rather unique cartridge in that the bullets made for it are made for the 30-30, Other 30 calibers tend to use bullets for a variety of cartridges. Hornady now makes a 300 Savage bullet which is good because I felt the generic bullets I sued in my Savage bolt action when I had one did not perform up to expectations. They killed deer but I did not see any real differences between them and the 30-30. They likely penetrated into trees and the ground on the other side further.

DEP

[Ajohns]

Barnes now makes a 190 grain just for the 30-30 you say? Could be just like a modern day 303 Savage? Some writers thought the 303 from Savage was superior to the 30WCF. It'll never change.

[Bazoo]

I have seen the new Barnes 190 bullet in their catalog, I bet it'll up the killing power a fair bit. I wouldn't hesitate to use the 30-30 on elk, in fact that's one of my hunting goals.

[northmn]

Barnes now makes a 190 grain just for the 30-30 you say? Could be just like a modern day 303 Savage? Some writers thought the 303 from Savage was superior to the 30WCF. It'll never change.

Barnes and Hawk, with Buffalo Bore loading the Hawk. Real popular cast bullet for the 30-30 was also the RCBS 180 FN which often threw a 190 gra bullet with softer alloys.

I got a bit windy on this post. I like historical firearms and used to build muzzle loaders. As the 44-40 was such a popular cartridge I was some what interested in the why. I almost bought a 73 clone but it was not in 44-40 so I let it go.

DEP

[MT Gianni]

There is much to be said about a cartridge you can by anywhere vs one you can special order brass for occasionally.

[Maine1]

RIFLE LENGHT 30-30's...sigh..
I'd love to see them back on the market. Full length magazine tubes, tapered barrels, with takedown models available.
One of those could be my one rifle solution.
With a good tang sight, or even a compact scope, a guy would be well set up.
No, it will never be an FAL or AR10....but it will do a lot that those rifles will do with simpler technology..if ones skills are up to it.

I'l have to check out that 190, thanks!

[Savvy Jack]

Now I know how to pull someones chain :bigsmyl2::holysheep:lovebooli:kidding::guntootsmi ley:

[AllanD]

There is much to be said about a cartridge you can by anywhere vs one you can special order brass for occasionally.

Precisely why I bought my first 30-30, I was going through my store of pack-ratted reloading supplies and discovered that I had acquired over 4000 once fired (range pickup)30-30Win brass and decided that since everyone should own a 30-30 rifle of some sort, I went shopping


Amazingly the first used one I found at my favorite LGS was a clean 1973 vintage 1894 that someone
just had to put a scope on, that I promptly removed as I used the fact that my new-to-me 1894 Winchester wore an "El Paso" Weaver K4 which was just what I wanted on my Marlin 1895... (that weaver K4 gave me an excuse)

[Maine1]

there are STILL $200 30-30's out there that work just fine. Might not look great, but they are good rifles. Like a fool I did not jump on one at a show this year. BUT...I found a 44...

Yes, you know ONE way to jerk my chain now..there are others...

[moosemike]

I have seen the new Barnes 190 bullet in their catalog, I bet it'll up the killing power a fair bit. I wouldn't hesitate to use the 30-30 on elk, in fact that's one of my hunting goals.

Never got an Elk but I have killed a Moose with the 30-30. The 170 Silvertip performed well. Don't have a 44-40 but I do have a 38-40. For large animals I feel better with the 30-30.

[Bazoo]

Moosemike, thanks for sharing. What part of the world did you get the moose?

[moosemike]

Moosemike, thanks for sharing. What part of the world did you get the moose?

Northern Vermont in 2003.

[moosemike]

240569

[Ramjet-SS]

Phil Sharpe was known to drink quite a bit.

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LOL well it’s like the early version of texting and drinking........:drinks:

[Ramjet-SS]

I like all guns even the ones I do not like I like.

The 30-30 loaded with a 190 Hawk with good dose of LR powder I am getting close to 2100 FPS that’s no slouch. But shooting BP in any gun is treat and caliber wars are of no use except to have a war.....

[Ramjet-SS]

I have seen the new Barnes 190 bullet in their catalog, I bet it'll up the killing power a fair bit. I wouldn't hesitate to use the 30-30 on elk, in fact that's one of my hunting goals.

I have shot elk with the Hawk 190 in a 30-30 back then We did not have Leverrevolution powder but with this powder it’s a game changer I get 2100 FPS from a 20” Henry. Very accurate as well. The Hawk is great expanding bullet deep penetration made mush of the lungs and heart.

[Texas by God]

I’ve not tried the LE other than a box of factory 160s but it certainly magnumizes the 30-30. Down here that extra power isn’t needed. I would certainly use your load for elk, though. That’s creeping up on 30-40 Krag power. It just occurred to me that I’ve never seen or heard of a deer running off after a good 30-30 hit. Read about it; never witnessed it. I’ve only killed a few with it, though. DRT.

[dtknowles]

My first centerfire long gun was a Win mdl 94 30-30. Heavier and more powerful than a Win mdl 92 or Marlin mdl 94. I have a revolver in 44-40, 30-30 revolvers are crazy. If I could only have one cartridge and one revolver and one long gun, It might be 44 Mag (sort of an updated 44-40). I think Elmer Keith claimed to have shot and killed deer with the 44 Mag at quite long ranges.

If you only use plain base cast bullets the 30-30 is at quite a disadvantage, even with gas checks you need a pretty hard bullet if you want factory velocity.

Tim

[Larry Gibson]

I push 2250 fps from my 24" M94 Blk Shadow 30-30 with LE under a 178 gr 311041HP cast of COWWs +2% tin mixed 50/50 with Pb. Accuracy holds 2 moa with 5 shots (what the magazine holds) at 200 yards. I do believe from testing/chronographing that that actually exceeds the velocity of most 170 gr factory loads.

[dtknowles]

I push 2250 fps from my 24" M94 Blk Shadow 30-30 with LE under a 178 gr 311041HP cast of COWWs +2% tin mixed 50/50 with Pb. Accuracy holds 2 moa with 5 shots (what the magazine holds) at 200 yards. I do believe from testing/chronographing that that actually exceeds the velocity of most 170 gr factory loads.

does it expand I use a similar allow with a gas check but they are just flat nosed lyman 170 and don't expand.

Tim

[indian joe]

I see where a 44 mag was compared with a 3030 that's a different Galaxy altogether. My mother back in the 80s shot a doe at about 150 yds the shot went thru a blackjack oak and the dear acted like it had been hit with a sledgehammer as if it knocked it down. This was with a 44 Ruger auto rifle

comparisons ... comparisons
in a modern strong action the 44/40 will do anything a 44 magnum will do - so that comparison is about the rifle and the quality of steel in it not the calibre/cartridge

Winchester sold 7 million 94's, most of em 30/30, kinda tells the story right there !

[Savvy Jack]

in a modern strong action the 44/40 will do anything a 44 magnum will do -

Now that right there is so funny you just won't understand!!!!!

(most people don't even know back in the day handloading manuals actually called for 250gr lead bullets with a load of Unique @ 965fps out of a 5 1/2" revolver that produced a recorded 15,000cup.) A tad bit before the advent of the 44 magnum :bigsmyl2:

[indian joe]

Now that right there is so funny you just won't understand!!!!!

(most people don't even know back in the day handloading manuals actually called for 250gr lead bullets with a load of Unique @ 965fps out of a 5 1/2" revolver that produced a recorded 15,000cup.) A tad bit before the advent of the 44 magnum :bigsmyl2:

????? I werent jokin Jack - put em both in a modern Rossi or Browning 92 - give em both the same rifling twist - wheres the difference ? - You tested enough to know this .
The major problem is some fool is gonna blow a 73 or brass gun to smithereens with those (44/40) loads.

[Larry Gibson]

does it expand I use a similar allow with a gas check but they are just flat nosed lyman 170 and don't expand.

Tim

Yes, with the HP they do expand.

[Savvy Jack]

????? I werent jokin Jack - put em both in a modern Rossi or Browning 92 - give em both the same rifling twist - wheres the difference ? - You tested enough to know this .
The major problem is some fool is gonna blow a 73 or brass gun to smithereens with those (44/40) loads.


Yes, correct....I know the 250gr grain load I mentioned is not to 44 Mag ballistics but the rifle can be loaded to mag ballistics. It aint fun and I dont like'm but I have been blasted so many times about it, it aint funny....but it is funny!

Yes and no....44-40 hot loads are no different than 45 Colt, 45-70 and other hot loads only good for strong weapons. I see 45-70 load data all the time on forums that do not specify whether they are Trapedoor, Lever loads or Ruger loads. Those same forums that have blasted me....its hypocrisy.

Some dumb%$# blowing up a 44-40 is no different than some dumb^%$ blowing up a 45-70 Lever or Trapdoor. Can't fix stupid!

[Texas by God]

Those old Lyman 44-40 loads that featured a 200 grain jacketed bullet going 2000 foot per second were completely safe in my Rossi 92. Problem was the mag tube jumped forward out of the detent and my shoulder started to cry.

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[Savvy Jack]

Those old Lyman 44-40 loads that featured a 200 grain jacketed bullet going 2000 foot per second were completely safe in my Rossi 92. Problem was the mag tube jumped forward out of the detent and my shoulder started to cry.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Shot my 45-70 today, I am in pain! I managed 10 rounds but the n the other 40...had to put it in the sled!

240803
This is me and my 30-30 Winchester made in 1951! For some reason my dad didn't take a photo with me and the 44WCF Marlin but I still have both!

[DeputyDuke]

If I recall correctly, Tom Horn, the cattlemen's association hit man, switched to the .30-30 because of its increased range and flatter trajectory over whatever BP lever gun he had been using to take out sod busters. GF

And no black powder smoke signature to pin point his location.

[Hootmix]

Really makes one appreciate TB & RL7 for our 44-40's .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[Savvy Jack]

And no black powder smoke signature to pin point his location.

Smokeless powder was offered for the 44-40 in 1894 and at greater velocities than with black powder.


If I recall correctly, Tom Horn, the cattlemen's association hit man, switched to the .30-30 because of its increased range and flatter trajectory over whatever BP lever gun he had been using to take out sod busters. GF

The 44-40 already had the range...using even a lighter bullet too....but the flatter trajectory would aid in more accurate shots at greater distances.....or at least has been my experience with both calibers.

[onelight]

A little 44-40 history will give an idea of factory load power / performance
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44-40_Winchester

[Savvy Jack]

A little 44-40 history will give an idea of factory load power / performance
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44-40_Winchester

How about a little deeper History
https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire

[onelight]

How about a little deeper History
https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire
That was a good read.
Thanks for posting it.

[smkummer]

This is easy. Shoot a gallon water jug with a full power 30-30 at 2200 or 2400 FPS and then a 200 grain 44 bullet at 1300 FPS. Yes, we have a winner.

[Savvy Jack]

This is easy. Shoot a gallon water jug with a full power 30-30 at 2200 or 2400 FPS and then a 200 grain 44 bullet at 1300 FPS. Yes, we have a winner.

You fail to understand the true dark side of the 44-40 young Skywalker!!!!

[Savvy Jack]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ly4STIft0I

[Savvy Jack]

I guess I need to dig out the clear ballistics gel once more!

I have achieved 1,733fps @ 20,913psi with the 44-40 with a 200gr hard cast lead bullet with a nice meplat.

Here is some gel test results I did a few years ago. Impact velocity of abut 1,200fps. This was using only 1,400fps muzzle velocity but with a Winchester 200gr factory JSP.
240913
240914

Once I establish an approx. impact velocity, I switched to my revolver since the revolver muzzle velocity represented rifle impact velocity at about 75-100 yards. Notwithstanding the 44-40's ability to achieve 2,000fps in the appropriate firearm.
240915
240916

240917
240918

[Savvy Jack]

Here is a standard 75 yard rifle test using standard pure lead bullets cast and sent to my be John Kort for testing using Swiss FFG black powder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nkgd5Eq6tM&list=PL5bplooWWnaT1z4kL1YWUVfnzkKMhN3b6&index=7&t=0s

[Savvy Jack]

Just for kicks, black powder, Lyman 42499 lead hollow points @ 75 yards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgoUXM5UGuQ&list=PL5bplooWWnaT1z4kL1YWUVfnzkKMhN3b6&index=3

[Savvy Jack]

Lyman 427098 50/1 with black powder...impressive huh! 27" penetration @ 75 yards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTuFgGBWNFU&list=PL5bplooWWnaT1z4kL1YWUVfnzkKMhN3b6&index=5

[Savvy Jack]

Oh, and the golfball hits. Four consecutive shots within 4-5" @ 265 yards.
1,650fps avg. muzzle velocity from a 24" Marlin 1894CB...estimated 19,000-21,000psi (NOT CUP)

https://youtu.be/4exkGBF_yq0

[Hootmix]

My 427098 cast at about 20-1,,217-218 gr.in my Rossi 92 ( mid 90's ) really like this bullet.


coffe's ready ,, Hootmix.

[Ramjet-SS]

Pretty cool stuff on the 44-40 great info fun to read.

[indian joe]

This is easy. Shoot a gallon water jug with a full power 30-30 at 2200 or 2400 FPS and then a 200 grain 44 bullet at 1300 FPS. Yes, we have a winner.

yeah BUT --------you is comparing a low pressure load from 150 year old wrought iron toggle link rifle - comparing that to a smokeless designed round in a modern STEEL rifle with far stronger lockup ----its apples to watermelons ....................handload that 44/40 to its capacity in the same action you used for the 30/30 - now you got yrself a photo finish - nuthin in it either way. !!

The lawyers (and CAS shooting) have the ammo companys so scared that the modern 44/40 loads are pipsqueak/ mousefart compared to a blackpowder charge - ridiculous waste of a fine old cartridge.