I have a Question

[bullshot]

I have a new to me Roller in 50-90. I wanted to shoot smokeless specifically wc-872. I have use this powder successfully in a High Wall in 40-65. However
I loaded ten rounds with 76 gr wc-872 using accurate' s loading data for their(no longer available) 8700 powder. I used Lee's 515-450 boolitt 450 gr sized .512(grove is .509 bore .501) alloy 20-1. New 50-90 Starline brass, Win LR Mag primer. Boolit seated to top grease groove with a light crimp.
Now for the interesting part. Never had this happen before. Fired the first shot and heard the primer go off and that's all, opened the action extracted the case,bullet lodged in the bore about eight inches in and no unburned powder. Knocked out the boolit with a cleaning rod. Examined the boolit ,no signs of gas blow by, no smoke out the barrel or signs of leakage out the breech. I am at a loss.
Anybody ever seen anything like this or has any ideas I would like to hear your views.:???:

[DragoonDrake]

I have seen it once before.
It was not me, but somebody else on the firing line; the bullet was out of round. He cast, lubed and loaded did not size. You sized so as to why you did it; know idea. Did you feel flash? possible that you chamber was not fitted tightly enough and all the gas left elseways.

My $.02
Adam

[oneokie]

Have to ask, are you 100% sure that this particular case had a charge of powder?

With the WLRM primer it is possible that the force of the primer was enough to move the boolit that far up the barrel.

[twotrees]

Yep a mag primer has plenty of poop to get the boolit that far down the bore on it's own. (Don't ask).

[missionary5155]

That sure sounds like a powderless case. There is NO way all that powder can "Dissapere "without a trace and not have ignited... even if it just laid in the bore and smoldered there would be evidence. Matter does not cease to exist.

[dromia]

I have to concur, definitely sounds like a powderless round.

It happens to us all at some point.

[bullshot]

Guys-- My first thought was the same -no powder. I have a pretty regimented loading procedure so things like that don't happen. I fired a total of six shots, three leaving the barrel by six to ten feet and three having to be knocked out with a cleaning rod. After the first shot I shook the remaining five cartridges to insure powder content. Now when I say I did not observe any smoke coming from the barrel doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Sometimes when you have something like this your mind is thinking -no way- and things get missed. I do not remember any smoke from the barrel and definitely none from the breach and no soot on the exterior of the case.. I did mention that the alloy was 20-1. My question is what if I miss marked the alloy and it was actually harder. How hard would the boolits have to be so that the boolit would not obturate and let the gas pass by? I looked at the boolits knocked from the barrel and they looked ok. What would the signs of gas blow by look like on the boolit? Maybe I'm overlooking something. As always I appreciate the comments and suggestions

[missionary5155]

Verify your Chamber diameter... But even if you are having blowby there would be evidence.
I have no experience with that powder you are attempting to use... But something sure is AMISS...
I would sack that load and start over... Fill the chamber with a sof lead boolit and that 50 cal will go BOOOM .. try some 2f and get the feel of it.

[Boerrancher]

Your bore is too large and your powder is too slow. I can assure you that if you load about 25-30 grs of 2400 you will get much better results. If 30 grs shows no pressure then start working up by 10% at a time.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[bullshot]

Joe
I agree big bore and very slow powder. Are you saying not enough initial umph to obset the boolit and the gas is blowing by?

[44man]

That powder is WAY, WAY too slow for a big, straight wall case. Once the boolit left and went up the barrel, most likely just from primer pressure, it could not develop pressure. It acted like sitting on the ground in open air. Flash but no boom.
3031 would be my choice as the slowest powder but I would use 4759 as the best all around for accuracy.
I would also use dacron over the powder because of the large case. Keep the powder near the primer.
If you want to make it go "thump" use black powder.
Even Unique would work better for you.
Be careful with that slow powder! If it did happen to ignite properly once the boolit was out, you are setting up an SEE event.

[Heavy lead]

Guys-- My first thought was the same -no powder. I have a pretty regimented loading procedure so things like that don't happen. I fired a total of six shots, three leaving the barrel by six to ten feet and three having to be knocked out with a cleaning rod. After the first shot I shook the remaining five cartridges to insure powder content. Now when I say I did not observe any smoke coming from the barrel doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Sometimes when you have something like this your mind is thinking -no way- and things get missed. I do not remember any smoke from the barrel and definitely none from the breach and no soot on the exterior of the case.. I did mention that the alloy was 20-1. My question is what if I miss marked the alloy and it was actually harder. How hard would the boolits have to be so that the boolit would not obturate and let the gas pass by? I looked at the boolits knocked from the barrel and they looked ok. What would the signs of gas blow by look like on the boolit? Maybe I'm overlooking something. As always I appreciate the comments and suggestions

Bullshot,
I have no experience with this powder, however I have and do with 8700. If this powder is in fact a knock off of that, and I am assuming this from your first post then what you're doing is risking life and limb. I have used 8700 in very, very overbore cartridges (7mm Ultra Mag for example) with heavy for caliber bullets with HOT primers, with a full (no air space at all, or very, very little). It is very, very dangerous if you have a big enough air space so you can hear or feel the powder when you shake the cartridge. I am not an expert on the 50/90 nor have I ever shot or reloaded for this (but have and do for the 45/70) so I won't give advise on that. But I want you to keep both eyes and all ten buddy, and the guy next to you on the range too. 8700 is a strange, very narrow application powder that should never be reduced, especially with an air space.

[44man]

Bullshot,
I have no experience with this powder, however I have and do with 8700. If this powder is in fact a knock off of that, and I am assuming this from your first post then what you're doing is risking life and limb. I have used 8700 in very, very overbore cartridges (7mm Ultra Mag for example) with heavy for caliber bullets with HOT primers, with a full (no air space at all, or very, very little). It is very, very dangerous if you have a big enough air space so you can hear or feel the powder when you shake the cartridge. I am not an expert on the 50/90 nor have I ever shot or reloaded for this (but have and do for the 45/70) so I won't give advise on that. But I want you to keep both eyes and all ten buddy, and the guy next to you on the range too. 8700 is a strange, very narrow application powder that should never be reduced, especially with an air space.

Well said, things can go funny for a while, then BOOM!!! :violin:
I thought this slow powder thing has been covered many times here. Evidently it needs repeated often.
Even with no airspace under the boolit, if the boolit is pushed out from the primer, there is your air space staring you in the face. There is a reason for shoulders on brass with big bores and slow powders to be used with a tight fitting jacketed bullet. Slippery cast boolits don't hold back well and can enter the rifling too easy. Soft boolits are worse. A straight wall case allows ALL the push to act on the boolit.
All straight wall brass must be treated the same as the lowly .44 mag when a slower powder is used. The boolit must be held in place as long as possible. Guys get bloopers with 296 in the .44 when they don't load right. (The cylinder gap has saved many a hand!)
But loading soft boolits that can't achieve neck tension without being sized smaller when seating will cause more trouble. Only black powder or a fast smokeless powder is safe. That is the only way to keep neck tension within reason for the boolit used and get complete ignition. With BP you can seat soft boolits by hand so they are not damaged during seating but they must contact the powder or wads.
The slower range of powders that can be used in the 50-90, like 3031, will need a harder boolit and more tension. Dacron is a good idea to hold the powder to the rear.
Treat the old BP cartridges, with dead soft boolits, just as if you were shooting BP. Much thought must be involved and just experimenting is OUT! :coffeecom
I don't ever want to hear about an accident on this site. I cherish all of you.

[bullshot]

44man
I think you are right. I looked closer at the boolits I removed from the bore and they just show rifling imprint and also all the lube in still intact making me believe nothing went past the boolit. Going to try a faster powder.


Heavy
I have shot a lot of 8700 until it was discontinued. When I started using wc-872 I followed the sellers statement that 8700 loading data could be substituted. That is what I did with the 50-90. Granted I used the lower suggested starting charge. As I stated before I used wc-872 in a High Wall chambered for 40-65 with great success but all the loads are compressed. I have also used it in a Sharps repro chambered for 45-70, also with good groups. Can't remember if that load was compressed. The air gap in the 50-90 was at least .250 maybe more.

[Ricochet]

There was NO powder in that case. If there had been, it would've spilled all over when you opened the breech.

[bullshot]

Ricochet
That is incorrect. Read post #7. I attempted to fire six rounds. Three left the boolit in the bore and three went six to ten feet out the barrel. I stated after the first round I shook and could hear the powder in the remaining five.
I think 44man has the correct answer. At any rate I'm going to try acc 5744 next.
Again I used the wc872 because I was told by the powder supplier that acc8700 data was suitable, which is what I did.

[waksupi]

No powder. With WC 872, or WC 860, even with a kicker, I still end up with lots of unburnt powder in the barrel .There most definitely would be powder residue left, if the case was charged. I have been tempted to lay a sheet out under the front of my shooting bench, to see if I could shoot the powder over, that is blown from the barrel.

[Heavy lead]

Bullshot,
I love 5744. Like I said I never load for what you are, but it works great for me in 45-70 and my 416 Rigby. Very consistant in the Rigby for reduced loads.