"Cast Bullets for Machine Guns" Article.

[Bigjohn]

I was discussing the difference in hardness between ACWW and WCWW with a friend and fellow caster via the phone last night.

He mentioned an article "Cast Bullets for Machine Guns" which discussed this same subject. He also said that at one time he had the magazine with the article until he lent it to someone and never saw it again.

My quest here tonight is to see if one of our members has a copy of the magazine and could scan or copy the article for us.

The magazine is 'GUN WORLD' sometime in the 1970's and was titled "Cast Bullets for Machine Guns", author unknown.
The article was by a shooter who demonstrated MG's for the LEA's and covers his techinque for Water Quenching as the bullets were dropped from the mold.

Can anyone out there help?

John

[missionary5155]

This would be an interesting article. My experience with caliber .30 turret mounted coax MG m 203 was that after the first 4-5 tracer burst.. the barrel was hot... next burst (2 seconds later) the barrel was Real hot.. the next 2-4 bursts and it was burning the green paint off...
How casr boolits would hold up in that extra heat ??? Our vehicle had the ammo capability ( ammo bin in turret wall loader side was 3500 rounds linked ) of making a barrel glow in the dark like a neon bulb... I fired 600 rounds once at the prescribed 4-5 tracer burst and that barrel was so hot when removed we just pitched it out the turret.. what would a red hot barrel do to cast boolits ???

[leadeye]

This would be an interesting article. My experience with caliber .30 turret mounted coax MG m 203 was that after the first 4-5 tracer burst.. the barrel was hot... next burst (2 seconds later) the barrel was Real hot.. the next 2-4 bursts and it was burning the green paint off...
How casr boolits would hold up in that extra heat ??? Our vehicle had the ammo capability ( ammo bin in turret wall loader side was 3500 rounds linked ) of making a barrel glow in the dark like a neon bulb... I fired 600 rounds once at the prescribed 4-5 tracer burst and that barrel was so hot when removed we just pitched it out the turret.. what would a red hot barrel do to cast boolits ???

I have put a lot of cast down the barrel of an M1 Thompson with no problem, even burning whole clips at once. Rifle caliber stuff I think would be another matter.

[missionary5155]

I guess a simple test would be to get a "removable" barrel RED hot.. install it and fire a clip through it.... a .45 1911 pistol barrel that was suspect of being a bit shot out any way ?
Maybe after I get wacked in the head a few more times this will sound like a good idea !

[Larry Gibson]

I distinctly recall the article. It was that article that got me WQing cast bullets from the mould. Old WWs hardened much better than newer ones these days. The article put me down the path on two other benificial items; medium and slow burning powders with heavy for caliber cast bullets to function gas and recoil operated rifles. It was a good article and I'd like a copy of it.

Larry Gibson

[missionary5155]

I totaly agree with HEAVY boolits and slow powders in semi-autos... My Garand and M1A "chunk" right along. The Garand flips the brass into a pile about 3 feet away... It would be nice to have one or the other down here. But restrictions exist on military semi auto weapons. Imagine having to get "special permission" to possess a S&W 357 mag...

[mstarling]

Don't remember the article. Have shot more than a few cast boolits in a closed bolt, blow back operated 9mm subgun.

Usually the Lyman 356402 121gr conical, though some 130 gr RNs and other stuff too. Have always made them from WW without quench. They work fine.

Again Carnauba Red makes relatively little smoke and seems to keep the lead fouling down pretty well. Heat is seldom a major problem with pistol caliber guns of decent design.

Have two bbls ... one is a 10" Colt with comp, the other is a custom Hart bull barrel with a machined in comp. Is good to spray the compensator with CLP before each session ... makes them easier to clean later.

30 Caliber GPMGs can get the barrels very hot, very quickly. I personally would not want to run cast boolits in a gas operated automatic gun regardless of caliber.

Mike

[Dale53]

I have shot a good bit of .45 ACP with cast bullets out of a Thompson sub gun as well as a grease gun. Both were LOTS of fun and NO problems. The .45 ACP is ideal for this.

Dale53

[Echo]

...and lead alloy boolits have much less friction than condoms...

[missionary5155]

I have shot a good bit of .45 ACP with cast bullets out of a Thompson sub gun as well as a grease gun. Both were LOTS of fun and NO problems. The .45 ACP is ideal for this.

Dale53

Good morning But again as stated above there is a HUGE difference between pistol and rifle ammo. The m60 machinegun was notorious for generating "neon barrels"... granted the m1927 "tommy" is not belt fed .... but how would a Tommy shoot cast bullets at 2300+fps IF the barrel was RED hot and beyond ???
I have shot my FAL with 180 grain cast until the barrel SMOKED and would singe paper... but again that is not yet as HOT as a belt fed caliber .30 will take a barrel in a short time...
WW is liquid at 800 F and a red hot barrel is what.... 1000+ How much lead is going to be melted off just due to HEAT ?
Sure this is the extremes and most crew served weapon owners are not going to self-destruct thier weapon... you may get 200 and more slow burst fired rounds expended depending on barrel thickness and cooling rate... a caliber .30 1919 water cooled Browning would probably consume a bunch of cast without much bullet deterioration in the barrel fired slow bursts.
But hey if I had a caliber .30 belt fed browning... I would link up a hundred 180 grainers and launched them... slow bursts.... they will work.. But if I had to repel boarders... well that first belt of 100 PB would be all I would want to HAVE to use.

[Larry Gibson]

I've shot many a thousand cast bullet through numerous full automatic weapons; M1A1 Thompson, M2 Carbines, an M60, M1917A4, M3A1, MP40, MAC-10 (.45, 9mm and 380), M45B, MPK, Sten, G3, MG42, M14 and the M1918A2 (probably a couple more I don't remember). We had all of these available to us in our SF Company arms vault along with an indoor range that many could be used on with cast bullets.

I must say that I never had any problems with cast bullet loads in any of them, even the belt fed ones. The M2 Carbines would get very hot and I expected some trouble as they fire from the closed bolt. Bullet was 311359 over H110. Never had a single problem. I loaded up a 500 round belt for the M60 once and it just chugged right through them without a single hic cup. Bullets used for the .30s were 31299 over 4831. The MG42 would go through a belt (we only had one belt and I think it was 100 rounds) 323471s over 4831 like butter. The BAR and M14A1 would go through 20 round mags like no tomorrow. It was lots of fun!

Larry Gibson

[missionary5155]

Good morning Larry Gibson... Thanks for the MG info... My M60a1 carried the caliber.30 m203 co-axle MG... that MG hah a 12 inch quick change barrel that was a nice idea... It got very hot real fast due to the littls mass it had...
Anyway this all made me start wondering what would happen to lead bullets as the barrel reached and surpassed 800 degrees. I realise the boolit is in the barrrel just mili-seconds but what effect would that have... How long and at what temp would the lead just melt off the boolit and get blown out as liquid whith the next round expended...

[jonk]

If the tens of thousands of degrees in temp from the powder combustion aren't enough to melt the bullet, I rather doubt that a few hundred degrees from barrel transfer would.

In fact I'd wager it won't even melt the lube.

[missionary5155]

If the tens of thousands of degrees in temp from the powder combustion aren't enough to melt the bullet, I rather doubt that a few hundred degrees from barrel transfer would.

In fact I'd wager it won't even melt the lube.

Good morning I think on ocassion the need for GAS CHECKS has arisen...

[Larry Gibson]

Good morning I think on ocassion the need for GAS CHECKS has arisen...

I am familiar with the M203 and I believe the M273 co-ax also from my armored cavalry days. Never ran cast through those. Since they fire from the open bolt I'd venture that Jonk is correct as are you, GCs are very much a necessity with with the rifle loads out of machineguns. I've shot lots of PB cast out of submachineguns, as has many, many others, without any problems at all. The little .380 MAC-11 could go through a 32 round mag in under 2 seconds with one pull of the trigger.

Larry Gibson

[Echo]

Not having fired ANY of these exotics, it seems to me that if a problem existed, it would come with weapons that fired from a closed bolt - after firing a long burst, the next boolit would be in near contact with the hot barrel for some time prior to the next burst and would heat up, possibly to the point of failure. Just my uninformed guess...

[TexRebel]

If it helps guys, I feed my 1919A4 A/C with the 311041, with G/C over 4831, it does well, but I did slow the bullet down to 2200 fps. I do cast the bullets in pure Linotype, that seems to help

[Echo]

Ok, 2200 fps MV, let's make the math easy and say a 24" bbl, and an avg speed of 1100 fps, means the boolit is in that bbl for .0018 seconds - I doubt if the alloy notices how hot the bbl is as the boolit passes along its red-hot path...

But, again, if firing from a closed bolt...

[TAWILDCATT]

I had a mauser I fired lead bullets out of that melted and little holes apeared in target.the case was full of bulk shotgun powder.[bulk shotgun was the name 1939?]:coffee:[smilie=1:

[Bigjohn]

BUT, does anyone out there have a copy of the original article I could get hold of?

John

[scb]

Sorry, I thought I still had it kicking around. I remember it well. It (the article) even told how shallow rings were cut into the muzzles (outside diameter) of some barrels to give fouling a place to go, I think on 1919 Brownings and maybe others. I just can't find it.